498 - The Hidden Skill You Need to Develop with Cheyenne Barton

0:20Why is it so easy to get lost on the creative journey? I have a theory and I think it's because in order for it to be a creative journey, it has to be creative. It has to take unique and unexpected turns. And if it doesn't, it's not a creative path. It's a typical path. And that means you're not always going to get it right. That means that you can't just follow what the artists and illustrators and designers and writers did before you. You can't do the obvious choice. You have to surprise yourself even. We're lucky to have people like artist, actor, illustrator, and YouTuber Cheyenne Barton who admits it when she feels lost.

1:11I asked Cheyenne to come onto the show for the second time because she's been sharing on her own channels that she's been going through a bit of an art crisis recently. And I thought it might be good to step into that moment in real time and try to work out some things live in the episode and just chat through what that feels like and where the breadcrumb seemed to be. And it was a really great chat. What I didn't expect was that she would have an aha moment in real time in the episode. So stay tuned for that. That was really cool. And at the end, I'm going to come back for our creative call to adventure, our CTA to put some of these ideas into practice with an exercise called left turn.

1:59I hope that it I hope this episode helps you if you're feeling lost, both just to feel like you're not alone in that, but also maybe some have some ideas of what you could do to figure out some next steps. and maybe even have a little bit of an aha moment like Cheyenne did. Without further ado, here is Cheyenne Barton.

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4:07Where are you at this second? Are you feeling creative? Are you feeling like you're rolling? Where are you at? What are you feeling? I'm feeling like I – it's so funny because I'm thinking about what we talked about last time. And I'm like I'm feeling similarly like, oh, there's so much I want to do, especially because December was like a very weird month for me. And I feel like I've gained some clarity. And so now I'm just kind of excited to try out a bunch of different things. And so for today, I'm just like, I know I'm getting into the studio. And then I'm also like, what am I going to do when I get there?

4:49So it's an exciting feeling of, it's a feeling where like I'm excited to make stuff, which is nice. Yeah. Yeah. And you're feeling that today. You're feeling like you've got the energy to go. That's good. That's awesome. It doesn't come, you know, it's not a guarantee every morning. So whatever it comes through, I'm like, okay, thank you. Yeah. Well, that's good. I saw, I reached out because I, for a couple of reasons, one, we started doing more stuff on YouTube with the show. And I thought I should reach out to the people I know that do YouTube and have experience and learn some stuff from them.

5:30But then also I was checking out some of your recent videos for that reason. and uh you did a recent one about kind of having an art crisis and I thought this is like really juicy stuff we should come we should talk about it um so what happened I uh I have been like basically for the latter half of last year I was in this place where I felt like nothing I was doing was working. I felt like my, my views on YouTube were falling. I felt like my number of patrons was falling. I felt like a lot of stuff was kind of falling through the cracks. And I was like, what am I missing? What's going, I was like, what's wrong?

6:18And I was watching all of these videos on like, how to game the algorithm and like how to, like the correct way to start your YouTube videos to like increase watch time and retention and all this stuff. And I was so scattered and lost. And then I was kind of at my studio one afternoon and I had been thinking a lot about like my artwork from, I think it was 2023. I think some of my favorite pieces I've made um like more recently are from 2023 and I was looking through my sketchbooks from that time and I had this moment of seeing like just an overabundance of freedom and fun and joy that I feel was so that I felt like I had completely lost touch with in recent uh months or years or whatever.

7:21And so looking back through my old work, it was very much a feeling of like, what happened? Like, what, what did I lose? What, um, like, yeah, I guess kind of, where did I go wrong? Which is maybe a little too harsh, but it was, it was definitely a feeling of like, I remember being this person and I don't know where she is now. Yeah. A lot of things come up there that are really interesting to me. I feel like there's a big transition on the internet over the past few years away from artists and creative people to the era of the quote unquote creator. I don't have all negative views on the creator, you know, that idea.

8:09There's plenty of, there's a lot that I really appreciate and think is truly creative and fascinating about creators, you know, whatever that means. But I did notice that like this idea of gaming the algorithm or retention and I don't think it's all bad, but I realized that there was something about – I paused because I was like I really was under the impression that I liked the space between the art and the audience. like that I liked the applied psychology of creativity of like, how do you elicit a feeling and how do you impact and connect? I always loved all that. And then I started feeling such a resistance to the gamification of creativity.

9:01And I thought I should kind of like this in theory. I like this kind of thing. And then as you said that, I realized, oh, it's like, I think it's because the window of the emotional response that gets what you need in order to hook people in a particular way that benefits the platforms, it's just a, such a small, it's such a narrow window of emotion. It's only a certain, I've thought a lot about this. Like there's only certain types of creative work that can go viral. If you think about your favorite song or your favorite movie or the, just the art that really, really hits you. Uh, most of that for me is stuff that would never go viral, would never, you know, hook the algorithm or, or get the type of emotional response that would hook people in such a way where they would, you know, stay on YouTube or so.

10:00I, I, I'm glad you brought that up. Cause it's interesting. We're in an interesting time with this and we've all had to figure out what our relationship's going to be to that as artists you know it's it is very I think that's yeah I think that's the thing where it's like I'll see reels or shorts or tiktoks or whatever of um like processes usually it's like a draw this thing with me or make this thing with me and it just has hundreds of thousands of likes or even tens of thousands of likes. And I'm like, this is really cool. And I'm excited for this person. This does not ignite anything within me.

10:40And I was like, good for them. But yeah, I feel that way. Yeah. And it's frustrating because then I see stuff that like sets my brain on fire. And it feels like I go to check their page and they have like 3 ,000 followers. And I'm like, what do you mean? What do you mean? Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's interesting. That's kind of why I started the year with some episodes about artists returning to the underground kind of attitude, because I think we got, we got into this zone in the early two thousands where all this independent culture started blowing up into the mainstream. And then that started to feel normal where like, oh, creativity matters to people.

11:21And Instagram being like the number one platform where the number one creators for that were visual artists and photographers put us in this weird place and culture that I think confused what it meant or why we would be doing this. And now I see a lot of the people that I resonate with in the way that I think about art and what my taste is feeling at odds with where the internet and mainstream culture is going in terms of creativity and not really knowing what to do with that because it wasn't that way four or five years ago. it's it is such a it is such a strange space to occupy I tried to explain this to my mom when she came to visit me in October because I was talking to her where I was like I was talking to her about my worries with like my numbers falling and my analytics and all of this stuff and she was trying to offer solutions and she's like well you know what people like so why don't you do that kind of stuff and why don't you try out these kinds of videos and I kind of had to like grab her by the shoulders.

12:28And I was like, I was like, mom, every time I make anything, I am thinking about how I can monetize it. And that ruins my relationship with my desire and ability to make stuff in the first place. And so she was kind of like, oh, oh. And I was like, yeah, it's hard because even if I'm doing stuff for myself in the back of my head, there's a voice where it's like, you could be making money off of this if you make content about it. And I'm like, but do I have to? And a lot of the times it feels like I do, which is also, which is also like exhausting in its own way. And I think that was part of the reason why I felt like, uh, just kind of for the latter half of last year, I was in this such of like I was in a very hardcore, my art is content brain.

13:22Um, and it did me no favors. Yeah. Yeah. I totally get that. And you have, I've heard you talk about your mom quite a bit. You guys seem pretty close. She she's an interior designer. Is that right? Yes. Yes, she is. And what is, so is she like a big support role to you? Yeah. She's a big support role. Both. I'm very blessed that both of my parents have been extremely supportive in my career. And my mom, like when me and my sister were little, would always make sure that when we would come home from school, she had like a whole little art table set up and was wanted us to kind of get into whatever craft we were into that day or whatever kind of creative exercise we wanted to get into.

14:03That's so cool. Yeah, it's really cool. I think that my family has always been very much have have always wanted to foster like me and my sister's creativity in like whatever form it takes I what I like what I was what I told him that I wanted to go to university to get like a BFA in acting they were like are you sure because they're like you you could do something with like more of a guarantee with like something that'll something that's a job yeah or like You know, they're just like something that could maybe, you know, secure you some income more reliably. I was like, but I want to act. And they're like, okay.

14:49So, and, you know, I didn't, I didn't expect this career for myself in any kind of way, but they've, they've been just an incredible support network. And my mom, especially just as in like, as a self-employed creative person has been like a huge source of, um, advice and support. And, uh, I'm really grateful to her. Yeah. I also, this is completely off topic, but you were in one of your videos, you're talking about how your mom used to make you platters. We did that same thing for our oldest kid who has a lot of like sensory issues and stuff, but we called them snack trays. So we couldn't, if we couldn't get like a, the right lunch for her, we'd be like, how about a snack tray?

15:38And she's like, all right, I'm into that. And we'll just give them like five things. Yeah. My mom was - What did you call it though? What is your - Flatters. Oh, but my new one is kitchen mouse meals. Yeah. Because my, my friend Allegra offered that to me and I was like, that's brilliant. Yeah. You gotta do that. And yeah, my mom was, my mom's like, sometimes it was literally the only way I could get you to eat. And I was like, yeah, because it's reliable. And I am a picky eater and I was a picky eater growing up. And so it was just like, if I could just put all of her favorite snacks on one tiny little tray.

16:14And I was also always up late. I was up too late doing homework and procrastinating on homework. So then she knew that it would sustain me through the night. That's great. That's a great, we'll mention it just because it's a great parenting hack. If you have a fussy eater, just get a platter or a snack tray or a, what is it? a kitchen mouse meal. It really does the trick. So, okay. So you were going through this, you've been going through this funk and I think everyone can relate. The flux of things has just been so destabilizing for pretty much every creative person I know. So I don't think you're alone whatsoever.

16:55I think 2023 and 2024, there were a lot of, so many things shifted. and I really had to do a bunch of different, I've kind of shown up in a totally different way, whether it seems like it on the outside or not. Um, just by trying to navigate the ridiculous amount of change to everything. So I get it. Yeah. Every peer that I've talked to, like other creators on YouTube and stuff, they're just like, or other artists on YouTube, they're just like, bro I don't I don't know man like it sucks and it's exhausting and I keep trying to figure out like what works and what doesn't and there's because like studio art YouTube is such a specific niche it's like very tricky to know what's gonna hit yeah um because sometimes videos that I don't videos that I've rushed and I've barely thought about do so well.

17:55And then videos that I spend 20 hours editing do so badly. And I'm like, well, all right, it's fine. But yeah, so it's definitely, it is a common experience, which is it, you know, we're not alone, but I, it's also I sure wish we didn't all have to deal with this. Yeah. But it seems like in the video that you did was it's like a titled something about an art crisis. It seems like even if you didn't figure out what the solution was, you got more familiar with like what the real problem was. Cause you went into that season thinking, I know it'll fix it. I'll totally reinvent my business this way.

18:37And then what happened that kind of derailed that? I realized that my perfectionism has been holding me back from making the work that I want to make, like the work that I see in my head and the stuff that I see from other artists that I just get like so excited about. And I feel prevented from making. I think it was in the recording of that video that I had the epiphany of, I was like, oh my, it's the sense of like, well, the fun comes from being good, right? And if I'm not good, then it's not going to be fun. And that has destroyed me in not only like just across many facets of my life, but like, especially in my creativity, because it has kept me locked into this kind of one specific little, I guess, like roundabout or cul-de-sac that I just keep circling in.

19:50And I'm, I'm, uh, I'm desperate to find a way out now. And knowing, I think like realizing that I was being trapped by, you know, a prison of my own making was enlightening and is also, um, made me, uh, more hopeful or excited that I can push through this because I know that all the stuff that I want to do lies on the other side. And it's like, I'm just like, it's so close. And if I can just get over myself, I can, I can, um, sees it. Yeah. That's a really, that's a huge insight actually. Like it hit me when I was watching the video, but also even now I'm like seeing new layers of this, like a theme that's, that's been constant over the past few years on the show is this thing of Oliver Berkman, who wrote the book 4 ,000 hours.

20:55He talks about it through the lens of telec and a telec, telec being goal oriented, a telec being like journey oriented. Um, and so it's something I've thought a lot about and this idea of, you know, being good at what you do, being the, the, the fuel that is very like goal oriented. It's like, the reason I'm doing this is because at the end I've done something worthwhile. And it's interesting because so this is part of like the not to like, we can chat economics. That's fine. Like, I just don't, I just don't feel capable of like speaking to it in a super intelligent way. But I do think like the fact that we have to organize so much of our energy around making money means that so much of our decision-making our huge decisions are really influenced by, I'm going to spend my time doing something valuable, meaning doing something that I'm particularly good at because the more uniquely good at it I am, the more valuable it is rather than, and that being the telec attitude, the goal-oriented attitude versus some compromise in the middle between the telec and the a telec of the goal oriented or the journey oriented of like, I'm going this way because I'm good at it and maybe it's valuable.

22:26And I just really love the process. And I really like to spend time doing that. And that's a, that's like a tricky, that's a tricky equation. Yeah. It's very hard. I, this is a revelation that I've had many times throughout my career, but it's, I am I am not a fan of the process a lot of the time because I just want the end part um I because again it's working through like the discomfort of it like not being quite right or it not looking good or feeling like well if I'm going to spend an afternoon drawing to what end because I don't have something that I can sell at the end of this uh which is very dangerous and as a result like I forget that a huge part of my job is to just draw and make with no kind of concrete end in sight and it's so difficult for my little capitalism poisoned brain to wrap around.

23:44So I'm just like, I'm like you, it's a thing of like, you have to, it's like you, you just got to make stuff. You just got to make stuff. And that's, that's enough. And that's okay. And trying to constantly remind myself like this afternoon, I was thinking about how I was planning or last night, I was thinking about how I was going to be planning out my day after our chat and I was like, okay, well, I'll go to the studio and I'll spend a few hours drawing. And I'm like, but what are you drawing for? And I'm like, well, I have a lot of different things that I want to work on, but I think I just need to draw.

24:24And I was like, but why? What for? And I'm like, I just need to make stuff. Okay. So I think that I'm kind of constantly just fighting the little demons in my brain to be like, Hey, I'm going to just try and have fun for the sake of it. Okay. Leave me alone. It's tough. It's tough. I, you know, drawing what for mixed with this thing of like, what is play, like what feels like play in terms of just like enjoying it for the sake of it. One thing that I have been thinking about is what, what did play look like when I was a kid. And I know that's like a, I feel like I, I've probably thought of that a million times.

25:08I've heard it a billion times, but I think I always was still putting it on through the lens of like, what were the things that I was doing as a kid that were valuable that were play versus no, what was play? What was just like, I was playing. And, and then I started trying to inject that into the work where, cause I realized like, Oh, for me, I spent a tremendous amount of time, like coming up with the character that I was going to pretend to be. Uh, like I did that a lot. Like that was something that I did a lot. I always, I came up with characters in a whole bunch of different ways, which obviously is what I do now in a lot of ways, but, um, I forgot that.

25:51And so, you know, that mixed with this other piece I want to ask you about, because I know you've been diving into anatomy and that kind of thing. But I was thinking like when you say, oh, I'm going to go draw, I think one thing that happens to artists, whether it's a musician or an illustrator or whatever, we have a very narrow idea of what our practice is. So if you're an illustrator, you think I'm drawing, but actually drawing as an illustrator is also writing. It's also ideating. It's also story structure and all the, there's so many different layers. If you're a musician writing music, practicing or, or playing wouldn't just mean playing your instrument and doing your scales.

26:38It would mean, you know, poetry and all, and all these other things. So what, what do you think are, you know, speaking back to also that thing you were saying about the art from other artists that really light you on fire. What are the things beyond just the rigor of practicing drawing that feed into the kind of illustration that you want to do and play in? The word that I always come back to is whimsy. Yeah. Yes. I just, I feel like, I feel like my favorite pieces I made a postcard for my Patreon in September of 2023 and it is to this day one of my favorite things I've ever made it's I just really knocked it out of the park where I was like oh this is it I was like oh I get it now and I feel like I've touched on pieces of that since but I've never been able to like like recapture that feeling.

27:47But the, yeah, the word I always come back to is whimsy and magic. When I was a kid, I was really into fairies. All of my imaginary friends were fairies and they would come visit me and then I would have to escort them back to the portal to their homeland that was underneath my parents' bed. And that was, that was how I played pretend. And I, I would like write lots of stories about fairies. I had a lot of like little picture books where I could write letters to them. And I feel like I feel like that's kind of ultimately at the core of the stuff I want to do is stuff that just feels very magical and whimsical and a little bit removed from this world or potentially that like exists within a pocket of this world.

28:42Yeah. And so I yeah, like the work that I'm drawn to has always like really fun shapes, like really fun kind of funky compositions. So much. I'm very drawn to work that has like a lot of like foliage and greenery and landscapes. And I don't draw a lot of those because, again, it's the fear of them not being good. and I just, I need, I crave, I crave the magic. That makes sense. What, what was that piece like? Like what were, what was in it? It's of a little guy with a mushroom. I've seen that. Yeah. That's great. What is it? I love it. What is it? What do you think it is about that? That's just like doing it.

29:32I think so. I was at the time, I think I was like three weeks into the artist's way challenge, which I abandoned two weeks later because I don't think it's built for ADHD. It's a challenge. I was like, I don't, I was like, this is valuable, but I don't think I could do this. Um, but I had learned, I had gone to a, um, studio, um, or like a exhibit that was at the Seattle museum of pop culture. And I had seen concept art for their film. oh what's it called it was their film about the yeti um i'm trying to think of what it's called i don't know why it just disappeared from my brain i know i'm trying oh everyone listens like it's missing link missing link um but they had one of their pieces of concept art i wish i could remember the artist's name off the top of my head i cannot but it was a piece of his concept art blown up huge on the wall and i remember coming around the corner and being like I started crying because I was like oh my god I was like oh that's it oh that's it and it was like really clean lines really magical kind of funky proportions um like really like I think the biggest thing I was like their line work is simultaneously so clear and clean but also so free how do you do it and so I was like okay I know I love doing line art and I know that I'm like afraid of coloring and like rendering.

31:05And so I was like, okay, when I do this one or when I do this piece, I was like, I'm literally just going to hold my Apple pencil further up on the body. So I don't have as much control, which helped a lot with giving me this like fun, loose sketchiness. And then I just treated it like a coloring book and just colored inside the line. So I didn't have to think so hard about it. And it was, I had fun the whole time. That's key. Which was wild because usually coloring is my least favorite part because there's so many decisions you have to make. And I was just like, oh, I just, if I just treat it like a coloring book, then I don't have to worry so hard about it.

31:46And I can just focus on the fun of it all. And I look back at like kind of how some of my lines aren't straight and like some of them get kind of weird and strange. And normally I would go back and like redraw them a bunch of times, but I purposely left them be. And I want that again. Yeah.

32:25I can fall into this trap of focusing all of my energy on what I'm not good at or don't like about the process in a way that's like, I need to learn, I need to get better. And that's fine. Like there are, there's definitely room for that. And there's elements of that that are really important or necessary, whatever that's true. But I do think sometimes I do it to my detriment. Instead of building on my strengths, I'm like obsessively focusing on developing my weaknesses that even if I'm, even if I spend the rest of my life on them, I'm still going to be worse than other people at it. You know what I mean?

33:02Rather than like diving into like, oh, I'm good at this and I like doing this and I'm going to just like max out on that strength. Um, that, you know, I think that I can totally relate to, to that. Um, and then also I, it kind of gets at something else that I'm thinking about. Cause as I'm watching these videos, I'm thinking about how, um, you're trying to get back in the joy of it. Then you're also trying to like challenge yourself with anatomy and all that kind of thing. I feel like illustration is more than drawing, I think. And you, I know you have this like strong relationship with storytelling between D and D and video games.