In short
Creative Pep Talk Episode Notes: Episode 514 - Tap Your Mood, Connect to Your Target Audience & Fun and Flow Process Inspo with Eliza Kinkz
Episode Overview In this lively episode of Creative Pep Talk, host Andy J. Pizza speaks with illustrator and newly published picture book author Eliza Kinkz. The conversation centers around maintaining fun and flow in the creative process, connecting with target audiences, and the importance of play in both art and life.
Key Topics Discussed
Importance of Fun in Creativity
- Creative Journey Challenges: Andy shares his experience of losing sight of fun in his creative pursuits and discusses the common struggle many creatives face when external pressures (like money or social media) overshadow the original joy of creating.
- Eliza's Approach: Eliza is described as a "fun master" whose work is infused with joy and vitality. Her perspective on keeping the creative process alive and fun is highlighted.
Understanding Your Audience
- Connection with Kids: Eliza shares her strategies for staying close to her audience as a children’s book creator, emphasizing the need to create books that resonate with kids rather than just adults or industry professionals.
- Feedback from Kids: A librarian shared that kids feel Eliza's books are truly made for them, confirming the importance of targeting the right audience.
Eliza's Creative Process
- Playfulness in Creation: Eliza discusses her unique creative process, which includes:
- Drawing over manuscripts in the initial stages to visualize concepts.
- Maintaining a playful attitude to keep the work feeling alive.
- Using rough, unrefined sketches to avoid being overly precious about early drafts.
- Final Artwork: Eliza describes her dynamic painting process, where she works on multiple illustrations simultaneously to maintain a cohesive feel and energy throughout her book.
Balancing Seriousness and Humor
- Humor in Storytelling: Eliza discusses how her background in animation influences her picture books, particularly her focus on humor that resonates deeply with children.
- Emotions and Laughter: Humor is posited as a crucial emotional release for kids, making it an important element in Eliza's writing.
Key Takeaways
- Permission to Play: Artists are encouraged to give themselves permission to play and explore, particularly when feeling the pressure of deadlines.
- Engaging with Your Audience: Actively engaging with your target audience, especially if that audience is children, is vital for creating effective and meaningful work.
- Flexibility in Creative Process: Maintaining flexibility throughout the creative process allows for the infusion of play and spontaneity, leading to more authentic work.
Call to Action
- 20-Minute Play: The episode concludes with a creative exercise: before starting any creative work, spend the first 20 minutes engaging in something fun or relaxing, setting the stage for a more inspired creative session thereafter.
Additional Resources
- Eliza Kinkz's Work: Listeners are encouraged to explore Eliza's illustrated books, including her latest, "Miss Taco."
- Creative Career Path Handbooklet: Available for free by signing up for Andy's newsletter at andyjpizza.substack.com.
Sponsors
- Squarespace: Mentioned as a platform for creating websites.
Conclusion The episode emphasizes the importance of retaining playfulness and fun within the creative process, alongside the significance of understanding and connecting with one’s audience. Andy's conversation with Eliza serves as an inspiring reminder to prioritize joy in creative endeavors.
For more insights and updates, visit [Creative Pep Talk](https://creativepeptalk.com) and check Andy's [personal website](https://andyjpizza.com).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:19So, I don't know about you, but I pursued a creative path because I thought making creative work was fun. And then as I pursued that path, the further I pursued it, the less fun it ended up being. And I started to forget why I did this, how to have fun making stuff. So that has been a struggle at different times in my creative journey. And so I'm guessing you can relate, whether you mixed money into it or social media into it or just pressure from yourself, it's easy to lose the fun. And so today on the show, I'm going to chat with a picture book artist and newly picture book author. Eliza Kinks is on the show and this person is just a fun master.
1:23you know every time i talk to her i've run into her at different picture book events um over the past few years and she just brings so much joy and fun to everything that she does her work is just brimming with life and humanity and fun uh her book she's got a few different books that she's illustrated um goldie's guide to grandchilding which is hilarious and fun uh papa's Magical Water Jug Clock that is written by Jesus Trejo, who I met who's a stand-up comedian and is just a great dude as well. That book is hilarious and there's so much chaotic stuff happening in the illustration. And so I was pumped to have her on here because she just came out with her new book called Miss Taco.
2:10And it's right there if you're watching this on YouTube. And And I'm so pumped to talk to her because I wanted to know how do you have so much fun when this is your job? Because I'm always looking for ways to get more fun into my process and remember why I love doing this and why I pursued this in the first place. So this thing's full of fun. We laugh a lot, but there's also a lot of takeaways for you, for me. And then I'll be back at the end with another takeaway. way. It's going to be called the Permission to Play CTA. This is your call to adventure, how to put some of this stuff to action. I'll be back for that, so stick to the end for that.
2:52But for now, here is my conversation with Eliza Kinks.
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4:42I'm excited that we get to chat with your author illustrator debut, right? Oh, I know, right? I can't even believe it's out in the world. I'm just like - I feel like just being like this everywhere. Don't you? When you have your book out.
5:01It's very exciting. It is. Oh my gosh. It's called Miss Taco. Yes. Right? Yeah. Taco. It's great. And it's funny and it's heartwarming and gooey. And I loved it. It's so good. Yeah. I think I was thinking about you when I said it to you that it would be up your alley because it's like the social emotional learning thing too, you know, that technical, but it's like, it's, and it's a really fun way to do it too, which is hard to do. Right. Absolutely. And, you know, we have this in common that we're making picture books for kids, which, you know, I like having that stuff in there. I like, you know, making stuff that's good for kids, but even more, you know, good on a, on a social emotional level or things like that.
5:58But I also, Sophie and I make picture books together, my wife and I, and we're always thinking about, but would kids like it? That's the first thing. Yes. Oh my God. And I wish, I feel like not enough people think about that, which is shocking, right? With children's book, You think, and I don't know if it's people just get, you know, so turned into an adult, do you know, like they can't connect anymore. And then thinking about the business side of publishing or just get, gosh, I, I'm sure, you know, it's just like publishing that industry. They chew you up. It's, you know, it's an old industry.
6:45and it's there, there's a lot of competition and, you know, there's some incredible people doing amazing things there, but I think it's a tricky situation too. I think, you know, we don't need to go super deep into this, but I thought that, you know, the two things that come to mind for me, I heard someone say, this is kind of a bad comparison because it's kind of degrading to kids, but they said, it's kind of like, I can't remember who said this. It might have been on the podcast, but they said, it's kind of like dog food where the dogs aren't the one buying it. So this is the problem that you get is that the parents and teachers and therapists and librarians, they're the people buying it.
7:19So often the books get made for them instead of the kids. And that becomes pretty tricky. And I also think that it's a thing of, there's a really good bit in this book, 4 ,000 Weeks by Oliver Berkman. And he talks about how we think, a lot of us think about what makes a good childhood is what turns a kid into a good adult rather than a great childhood for childhood's sake of like what makes a childhood great based on what it feels like to experience childhood. Does that make sense? No, it makes so much sense because just the minute kids come out, we're like, grow up. Yeah. Is this going to help you bring value to stockholders one day?
8:06Like that's what we're thinking about. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it's just ridiculous, like how just the minute we start making marks on paper, even it's like, well, can you write your name now? You know, so we can go ahead and put that on a worksheet so you can go ahead and start writing and start learning, you know, when really writing when we're first starting off is just drawing. Yeah. And and it should be embrace that, you know, like it's like we. forget that we disconnect from that just because of the outside pressure of the world because we're like told you know like stop playing get to work from a young age you know and it's even in schools it's like recess is less and less and less when it should actually be more and more and more like as we grow older you know we should still have recess like like how often does it reset you when you're doing art just to you know even though what we love we're very fortunate and to be in these our careers where we have studio spaces but it's still it's just going outside and, and like just touching some flowers or just looking at something you see random on the ground.
9:32You're like, where did that come from? Yeah. And I bet, you know, I'm, I, that's what I love about you and your books is that I just, I have to believe that kids are crazy about them because even down to your author photos are hilarious. the one in this book you look kind of like uh what is it is it hannibal lecter or something oh my god i know i was like i love it so much because of that even more like hello clubbies can you tell people what your author photo is in this book i'll show it for the people that are watching on youtube but oh my gosh it's so like one of my uh illustrator friends was like that is completely terrifying it's but it's so it's what you did as a kid with a tortilla you know it's like you would you're like got the tortilla and you immediately like i can play with this item and so you would bite like holes in it and then all of a sudden you have this mass that you hold out and you're like sticking your tongue out of it like like but then you're like slowly eating it too as you're doing it and it's just and it's an amazing because it actually is a food item that you as like I guess depending on the parent but I think most parents are like okay because your kid is eating it so you're like well play with it it's not causing a mask first okay yeah you're eating it you're like okay and it's not making a mess and you're like and it's fun like I actually at my story times I've been bringing tortillas and then encouraging kids to do it.
11:07And it's just amazing. Like just seeing the little, like how they bite into it, just to create everything. So good. Oh. And it's funny. They're like doing creative things, even in the way that they're eating, which is awesome. And I want to talk a little bit about how, you know, looking at you do your press and your author photos and the way you approach your work. There's just so much fun in every bit of it. I want to get to that in a little bit, but first I just want to say like this, this book being your first one that you wrote and illustrated, it's really huge because from what I have gathered, you've been pretty obsessed with picture books all the way back into where, when you were really little, right?
11:55And I heard you tell a funny story about stations as I don't know if it was first grade or something like that. Can you tell people about that? Oh yeah. So when I was in kindergarten, they usually teachers to control the classroom, they'll have like little stations. So like, it'll be like a little kitchen play station over here. There'll be a station where you do worksheets over here. Like you work on a letter, there'll be a station over here. And so they had that one day. And then one of the stations was picture books. And so the idea is they had five stations. So by the end of the week, you would have five different activities, you complete it.
12:33And so the first day, I was at the picture book station. And I was just like, I love this. I love it so much. And I remember that like, I still have that feeling when I make picture books, actually. It's just like, it's just like, it's just like my heart burst out of my body. And I was just like, this is what I want to do. And so the next day they were like, go to the next station. And I just was like, I'm just going to pretend nothing's happening and I'm going to stay at the station. And so by the end of the week, people had one picture book each, you know, and then other activities. And then me, I had like 10 picture books.
13:13Laura, wait a second. What's going on? We've been scammed. You've been doing the same station every day this week. I know. And I remember my teacher not being happy about it. And then, you know, I still feel that guilt of like being like, but it was like, if I was that teacher, which I would be a horrible teacher because I would like be like, let's just climb trees all day. What? Standardized testing. Forget that. But actually it sounds like I'd be an amazing teacher.
13:50Yeah. But I just, yeah, I just, but it's still like, I just know I had to do that. And I mean, I went different routes. Like I went into animation from like when I went to college, but it was still that storytelling, you know, it's like wanting to tell stories and the humor, the humor has always been there since I was a kid. This is your fourth book, right? Yes. So this is my fourth book and this is, but this is the first one that I've written and illustrated. Yeah. Do you get, do you still feel this like thing, like you're getting away with something you're going to do your like end of life review in the afterlife and you're going to be there and you're like, so what'd you do?
14:27Here's my 10 picture books I made. You know, is this the right thing to be doing? I feel like that sometimes like, okay, I'm having a blast over here. I'm making this stuff, but I wanted to ask you about that. So you loved picture books clearly making them um why did you go then into animation in school you know i just couldn't picture i think at the time i was more into adult uh like themes right because of being a teenager and being um and just like there was a lot of that like uh like that more adult animation like spike and I think it was like Spike and Mike animation show was big. And then I would go to animation.
15:14I went to South by Southwest, their animation festival in college. And because I was with Austin for a little bit before I went up, I went to school in Columbus, Ohio, Columbus College of Art and Design for animation. I taught there a little bit. I taught a couple of people over there. So yeah, it's funny. Oh my gosh. Yeah. But yeah, so it just, at the time I had like really adult themes in my animations. Like I did this Matrix animation with like tampons. Like I had all sorts of like wild things going on in my animations for a while. And I had this series like Guys I Don't Want to Date with like, it's just like guys who sniff bike seats.
15:59Like it's just like these crazy animations. And so definitely not kid focus. I got that out of my system. And then I think when I had kids, then it was like I was thrown back into it. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is so much easier. And I had so, you know, like all of us that are getting a picture, but we have so many stories. Like, I mean, people see these few books, but it's like they don't see like the big pile of ideas like underneath these books. and uh and so i was like this is what i want to do picture books and and just i've always had a repertoire with kids like i love talking to kids that's never changed my entire life yeah like they're my favorite audience you got pretty like you went to school for animation and then you worked in animation too right yep okay and so you got pretty far in there and then what was it a what about picture books appealed more than the animation work?
17:03Well, I think it's because I just wanted to tell my own stories and to really tell your own stories. Like, because I tried to pitch some shows to Nickelodeon and I'm actually grateful they didn't go through because it ends up not being your story, you know? And I mean, you do have to compromise a lot with picture books when you're the author, but it's nowhere near. It's nowhere near as much. And then it's just like I didn't. And you know what it is also? I didn't feel the love for animation that I do picture books. Like I just felt immediately at home in the picture book community versus the animation community.
17:47I never felt at home. And then even there, I remember thinking to myself, why can't animation look more like the picture book illustration I'm seeing? And I still think that a lot, too. It's just so beautiful, the illustrations that you see coming out of the picture book world. And you're just like, how can this? And I mean, I think they're on their way because there is some really awesome stuff coming out all the time. But it's just never quiet, right? it's not yeah there's like in picture books it's a lot more stylized i feel like yeah than a lot of the animation stuff and a lot of the animation thing and maybe it's because it's such a it's so expensive there's maybe and there's so many people involved that it ends up getting watered down to try to appeal to a mass audience and maybe there's a fear of stylization that's gonna throw people off.
18:43I don't know. That makes sense with management, right? Well, I wondered also if what attracted you out of animation into picture books was the process, because every time I've ever seen you start talking about process, you really light up. Oh yeah. Just like, gosh, I just always loved the beginning process of it. I mean, like all of us do. Like, I mean, that's what will make us take on a project, right? Like, this insane. It's like the torture. It's like, we're just all about jumping in again, you know, for these projects. It's like, we get so in love with, it's like love at first sight with these ideas for us.
19:29And so, and I think that's the thing. It's just like, I want to do a lot more ideas. I want them to be finished quicker. Yeah. Like animation is long, long process, especially with you're doing independent animation too. And even if you're working with a few people, it's still so long. And, and also I really, I just love having my hands on everything, right? It's like, you're having your, you're sort of like at the beginning process, you're writing it, you're, you're like figuring out how this world looks. And, and it's just, and, and, you You know, the thing that I think is the real struggle for a lot of illustrators, because it's like our audience is play based.
20:17They're play focused. Like they want us to play like they, you know, any kid, any kid you go up to is immediately ready for you to play with them like 100 percent, like more like five billion percent. And it's really hard because you want to keep that play in your books. but it's so hard to do right because you get involved with these projects and you'll be looking at everything so long that it's like becomes work and so it's very tricky it's it's picture books are so tricky with that to get that play still in them because you when you have that play in it. Kids know it. They know it. So I completely agree with that.
21:04And actually, you know, this is what I was, I was kind of suspicious about this, where the work feeling alive and playful, I know is important to you. And I know that, you know, the speed at which you can make animation and how cumbersome the process is just in terms of length and yeah, how alive you can stay in the process seemed like it was hard for you. And then you found this process in making picture books, which is pretty unique. I don't know if you feel that way, but when I've seen how you go about creating picture books, I think it's pretty unusual, but it's very focused on keeping it playful, keeping it alive, right?
21:56could you talk a little bit about how you like from start to finish how you go about making picture books and you can speak to um i really loved hearing you talk about how even when you get the manuscript for a book that you didn't write how you'd instantly start drawing in there so if maybe you can go from there to like just how you complete a book because i think that you're totally right that I don't think it's just picture books. I think it's every project that you're going to try to create a finished piece of work. Everybody knows that capturing what's in the sketch in the book, like everyone knows that's so hard.
22:37Trying to capture what's on the demo tape into the song that you put out is it's really delicate art. And I think that your kind of obsession with process seems like it's all about figuring out how to carry that. Like, you know, I'm thinking like a, you know, egg and spoon race kind of thing. There's like a weird thing, like a delicate balance, but yeah, maybe you could start with the manuscript and just talk through how you approach it. It is so true. It's such a delicate balance. Like, Like, I feel like I'm constantly doing this dance and I'm like holding like a stack of plates and on top of the stack of plates is like folding cards.
23:23And it's just like and then on top of that is like a flamingo or something. Like, it's just like it's just like the wildest. I also love flamingos. I have to say. I mean, look, I have a flamingo like right here in the background. That was like one of my kids' favorite toys. I keep stealing it back and he keeps stealing. I didn't mean to cut you off. No, no. I'm the one that brought up flamingos. Either if I'm doing the story or it's like always drawings and images and words are always playing together. and so if I get a manuscript like if even if I'm the one that wrote it and I'll print it out it's like I draw over like you would in the margins of your textbook as a kid you know like you just get so bored just like like I can't stand this anymore just like draw little things or just draw doodles or whatever and so I just like look at the words and it's like what is this image or what is this word triggering like what kind of image am I am I seeing from the sentence.
24:32And so I'll just go through and just draw everything. And some images, you know, don't make it past that draft, but some images ended up being carried throughout the book and make it to the very final. And so from there, I'll take those images and I just try to be very rough, very rough. I'm always like, when I talk to students about this, I'm always like, do not be precious at this stage you can never be precious like i mean and it's like take a take a note from kids kids aren't like precious with paper they're like do like one little drawing on the side throw that paper away you know and then go to the next one and it's just like you can't be precious especially at the beginning you just have to like just marks of what's what's sort of going on.
25:25You know what's going on. As long as you know what's going on. Like that's all you need to worry about. And then once I have that figured out with the words, I will usually send it off to either if it was like my idea of a story, I would probably still keep it to myself for a little bit because I would be working on it some. But if I'm working with a publisher, then I'll usually send it off to my art director with the words and I'll be like, is this working for you? And it's just like, and always, it's always, even if you've worked with them, they're like, is it gonna, it's gonna look more detailed?
26:03Like, no matter what, like, if you've done a completely finished book, and you're like, you're like, yes, of course, of course, this is not anything final, of course. And so from there, you get it back. And then, like, they may have some notes. And then that's when you like start moving stuff around and figuring stuff like, okay, the words are going to go here. This is going to go here. And, but still at that process, like you really should not be worried about backgrounds. You're just worried about big shapes. And it's, and it's still like a delicate act because you want to have fun. You want to, the story to flow.
26:43Like you want the kids to be excited to turn the page. Like, It's just like, it's already so, it's such a delicate act. And then also you're trying to pay attention to the story structure too. Like it's like this house structure. You don't want to mess up the house. You don't want the house to fall down halfway through the book. So it's like a lot of balancing right there. And then look at me, I'm moving. Like I'm moving forward. And then so from there, it's like, you know, I usually send that away too. to and that would be a point where i would send something to my agent like if i was feeling like this is good this is a good structure but it's still movable everything's still movable you don't want it to be unmovable until you get to the final art like everything should still be you shouldn't be holding on to anything like really passionately you know like of course we all we all can't help it we all have our passion moments but it's like you have to try to give it up at that point for the service of the story because you want that whole story to flow well.
27:49And so from there, you got the story flowing well. Your art director's happy. Then you start going into the final drawings. And that's, I think, the tightest process for me because I'm trying to figure out, well, are there knick-knacks over here in the background? And it's like I might have to move this over here if I want that, you know? And so I'll get the drawings how I like it. And, and then I'll send those off to approval. And if those are approved, then I'll go to final art. And then this is where things get wild for me. Cause I want to go back to play. Cause I just, I just tightened up as much as I will agreeably tighten up, which is probably not anywhere as much as most people.
28:36but so I type so I want to play now and so what I'll do is with these final drawings I'll put a piece of paper over that drawing that's very detailed and then I'll just oh and then I'll just oh I should add before this what I'll do is I'll do a color sequence so I'll figure out the color sequence for the entire book because I want to make sure stuff is repeating stuff is like the colors I want for each section, you know, cause there's sometimes different emotions on each section or different feelings going on, but you still want it all to work together. And so I'll do a general color sequence for the whole book, but it's small cause I don't want to be too precious with it.
29:19Like, cause I want to let other colors come out. If they want to, if they want to come out to play, they can come out to play. I don't want them to feel intimidated by my color sequence. So from there, I have my finished drawing. I put a piece of watercolor paper on it and then I add color. Like I don't draw the drawing exactly. I add some colors. Like I'm like, and I don't, I'm not precious too. Like sometimes it'll be a matte pencil. Sometimes it'll be pastel. Sometimes it'll be like a little bit of watercolor, you know, I'll just mark where stuff is. And then from there, I do that with every picture book image in the whole picture book.
30:02So I have those papers ready to go. And then. And they're just papers where you put color on it. Yeah. It's not like anything final. And it's like, and if somebody looked at it, they'd be like, what is this? You know, it's like, this is like very abstract new work from you, Eliza. Like if anybody came to my studio, like it wouldn't look like anything. And so I lay those all out next to one another. And then this is where it gets really fun is I paint the entire picture book all at once over the course of like, usually it's a month about is I'll lay it all out. And so there's a certain way out.
30:42Can I just please do? Yeah, please do. So you'll paint it all at once where you have your tables set up in like a U shape. Yeah. It's like a U, big U shape, imagine. And they've got all of the spreads out individually and they're all being painted kind of at the same time. Like you're moving around painting this over a month, you said, right? Yeah. It's awesome. It's really cool. Oh my gosh. You see that that way. And why do you do that? I think it's well I know I know it's to keep the life like because you get if I'm just focused on one painting I would start getting precise with it but if I'm laying out a bunch of green on a bunch then I'll just go through and I'm more like free with my paint strokes which I'm already super free with my paint strokes but it's like I get like even more because I'm like oh let's paint over here let's paint over here oh you know this color would actually look good right here maybe I'll put a little right here.
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31:42You know, it's not as like, and then you also I've heard you like, then you're going to add it to other spreads to make sure the colors are working through. That makes tons of sense. You know, the thing that, so I love all of that. It's really fascinating. The thing that I'm really curious about is there's kind of two things happening as you move through that process. One is you're like the steward of something. I think you call it the life, but I think it, I don't know if that's the only thing it is, but you're like protecting this really delicate thing. That's really important to you all the way through the process.
32:23And you kind of have a intuitive sense of like what you need to do to make sure that it's there. And it's a bunch of different things. You know, you called it the life. You talk about it like play, whatever it is. Like there's it's you're mentioning it when you're saying not being precious and all these different things that you're doing this in the process to keep this thing safe and alive. That's one part of it. And the other part of it is all of these, you, you actually like go into character several times throughout of these voices of like, is it going to be more detailed? And also like, what are you doing with that?
33:02And, and it's funny, like, uh, you know, the final product I've heard people engage with it. And by the way, if people don't know, these are award-winning books. You go look at them. They're hilarious. I think they're undeniably great. But I think also people don't really know how this comes together or why does it work or whatever it is. So as you're moving through that process, you're doing that thing where you're like, your job is to take care of this thing. Even though you have these voices that are clearly – you're aware of them. I don't know if they're in your head, but there's voices from the outside that are like, what are you doing?
33:38Why are you doing it that way? What's happening? Like, I don't know if you could speak to what do you think you're protecting? And then how do you get yourself to give yourself permission to do that when there's all these other people maybe questioning you? I even think, you know, I'll add one other piece to this where looking at the books that you've done for other people. One of the things I love about what you're doing is you're writing with pictures, which is like the, I think the ideal for illustration where you're adding a bunch of stuff to the story that isn't in the text. That's really adding a lot of chaos and funny and all this stuff.
34:17And I'm just thinking, where do you get this confidence and permission when you know there's so many people in the process are like, uh, what are you doing? What are you protecting and how do you, how did you find that like confidence to do that? I think it's just like, I love, I just love this so much. All these questions you just, it's like, what are the voices in your head telling you, Eliza, right now? What are they telling you? Are they here right now?
34:55Of course they are. They're all around me. yeah I just love this is so good you know I love like somebody in publishing once said like nobody could get away with this except Eliza Kinks could get away with this and that's what I feel like I feel like I'm just so playful at every level of publishing I'm just like let's play what are we doing like why are we running around in animation though no i don't think so and i think it's the kids like i'm around kids a lot nowadays with like i'll go do school visits and i talk to kids and then i have kids too you know and and like i and i spent many years being around them too like a lot of like i took some time off and just was like playing with my kids and i mean i I probably would have liked to play a little less with my kids, but the cost of childcare like made that not possible.
36:00And so, but I still like I was playing with them all the time and just going places and stuff like that. And I think I just get so excited about making these books that I'm like, let's throw this in, let's throw this in, let's put this in, like, let's put this in. And I think it's probably a lot of the cases I overwhelmed them with so much stuff that they're like they're like okay i think this is working i guess so much out there that they don't that they bring it back a tad because they're like okay all that but then you still got away with tons because you've thrown so much at them yeah i think that is the case it's like it's like when you just come into the house with like this big box of thing and i just like toss it in the air and then like i'm read out i heard in your first book the uh goldie book goldie's what is it guide for grandchilding is that what it is and i heard that it seems like a similar thing where you put so many fart jokes into it that they were like the only thing they could say is like maybe a little less I do.
37:09Oh my God. I am so many in there. I can't believe they let me get away with it. Oh my gosh. They let me get away with so much with that book. I like showed that book at one school and one of the girls was like, I think this book is inappropriate.
37:28And I was like, my job here is done.
37:51There's something I feel like I'm missing. So it seems like having kids reconnected you with a part of yourself, this play aspect. but do you feel like that journey into animation, that journey into being a serious teenager slash young adult, making weird grownup stuff, do you, what do you feel like you took from that and brought into this? Because I'm really fascinated by a lot of people's journeys have these like, not necessarily false start. Cause like they're pretty obviously related, But like this tangent at the beginning, and then when they go into the thing where they're really hitting their stride, they're bringing something different.
38:36And so I wonder if there's anything from that animation phase that you think that you are bringing into the process that is, I don't know. Do you feel like there's any element of that that you brought? oh yeah it's the humor the humor for everything that's the huge thread through all my work and then just it's like humor that like goes even more off the wall like it's like it's like you just don't know where it's going like it's like that humor where you're like starting to laugh and then you're starting to get uncomfortable again and then you're starting to laugh again like and then uh so I'm always after that kind of laughs from kids like I just want to I and And it's like, you know, back to the social emotional thing, like, gosh, what is more a relief and a release than laughter?
39:30Like, especially the laughter that like comes out and it's like you laughing so hard, you start to cry. And it's like, is there, and then that euphoria you feel afterwards from doing it, like where especially it's like, sometimes you can't even breathe. You're just laughing so hard. And, and it's like, I think that's the biggest service we could actually do as picture book creators is laughing. Like it's just like, just for these kids. Cause it's like such a safe way to be emotional in school, you know? like because there are a lot of the times it's like they have you they have big emotions which oh my gosh I love like wouldn't you love to just like like see they're out of something at the grocery store and like lay down in the aisle and be like why why where is my favorite pickles why and then just have the grocery store manager come over and be like there there the pickles are here the pickles are here for you and you're like no it's too late i'm still i'm so emotional now just like letting it all out oh and it's just like and it's not it's not safe a lot of the time you know for for us to have those big emotions but oh my gosh laughter oh just releases it all that's really interesting i hadn't even thought a ton about laughing as kind of connected to emotion, but it is a huge emotion and it is a huge emotion that is kind of socially, socially acceptable to, to engage in.
41:18Um, but then, you know, I've heard standup comedians talk about how it also is a real, um, disarmer, uh, and it's where you can, and that's kind of the interesting thing about if you end up getting too heavy handed with your message or, um, coming in too strong with teaching in a book, then you're not going to disarm. You're not going to get engagement. And so I do think, yeah, I think it makes tons of sense. And do you think, I think in entertainment, animation's more in that entertainment world. It's more removed from education than books are. And so there is a real focus on humor and entertainment for entertainment sake.
42:01And so are you saying you kind of, you feel like you pulled some of that ethos into making picture books? Yeah. I think, I think there's something about that. Like, it's like, sometimes like picture books can be a little, like, it's like, they're either too sweet or Or then sometimes they're too highbrow. And it's like, I feel like it's nice for them to be, especially for kids, for them to be, like it's like a tightrope I'm walking. Like it's like I want them to be appealing on a broad level. So you do have to give a little bit of that really detailed illustrations. I feel like I'm always after the, like my high standard is the laughter.
42:55And I don't feel like you can laugh anywhere near as much at a really beautiful detailed illustration as you can as like a kid's drawing of their grandma. You know, like it's just like, it'll just be like this face with some sticks on the side, you know, and it's just like, that's my granada. And it's like, and you just like, and you just like, you try not to laugh because it's just so good. And so funny. And there's just, and so it's, it's a very hard thing because I do have a great appreciation for those books and love of those books. But it's, and I don't want to sound like I don't hold them in the greatest esteem because I do.
43:44um but i think for me my goal is to make the kids like laugh really hard and make them happy and then just bring up their common jokes that we all relate to which is like poop you know like it's just like you just say poop in a classroom and the kids are like it's also just a crazy power to go in there yeah the outsider there's no you know you don't have any responsibility of like chilling them out afterwards and you can go in there and be hilarious oh my god i'm always warning the librarians i'm like i'm sorry after i leave please try to help me at the end of the day because i just rile everybody up like i go in there and it's like pretty chill and then all of a sudden like afterwards everybody's like that's hilarious i think to me the thing that is kind of the takeaway for that is there's real power in knowing who you're making stuff for.
44:42And I've thought a lot about this recently, this idea of the, um, the artists artists trap or the comedians, comedian trap or the musicians musician. And I think that there may be for some people actually, that is their target. And that is really what they want to do. They want to make their music for the top musicians and they want to be that. And I, you know, I think about things like, I'm a really big fan of this. I can never remember. What's the, I can never remember the name of this publisher. It's something lion. Oh, I know the one you're talking. Enchanted Lion? Enchanted Lion, I think it is.
45:28Yeah, but they did this amazing thing where they've made this imprint. imprint and I've, um, I backed it on Kickstarter and it's picture books for adults. I think it's really amazing because they've actually created these books. Some of them are like really gorgeous. Some of them are tackling more grownup themes. And I think it's really incredible because I'm a huge fan of books like that. Yeah. And I, and I love those things, but there are, there's a difference and there is a striking a balance of those things too but there's also a difference between that and then something where this is made for i even go further than that when i'm making the books i'm thinking of a particular type of kid and there were sometimes when i do school visits i'll meet that kid that this book i made this for like weird kids um and like the you know a lot of kids seem to like the books but then there'll be one kid that's like, you don't understand this book is weird.
46:30Like I, I like that. And so I think there's something about, um, you know, you're, I guess I'm trying to get at like, that seems like part of what you're protecting away from those voices. You're protecting like, No, I'm protecting this book for it to be what it needs to be for who it's for. And does that feel right to you? Yeah, I think it's I'm protective of giving kids books that they would love. You know, like I know, like because I recently had a librarian tell me like a kid saw my book and they like got it. and they were just like holding it and she and they looking at it like and then they were like this this book was made for kids yeah and they said that and i was like and i was like that's true that's exactly right and then she was like she's like yeah and i was thinking of it after and a lot of the picture books art don't seem to be made for kids right and and and but yours are And I felt like that was one of the highest compliments I've gotten recently from a librarian.
47:47I was like, especially from a librarian, too, because they know it. They're seeing books day in, day out, what comes in, what comes out. And that's exactly what I want to hear from kids. Because I did make it for them. I didn't make it for my publisher. I didn't make it for my peers. I made it for a six-year-old that wants a book that they want to look at again and again, and they want to laugh a lot. I think it makes me think it's really easy to fall into that trap of making work for your peers. I think it's important to have face time with the people that you're trying to make stuff for, so you can remember why it is you're doing this, just like you do with kids.
48:36But any artist could say that because it's easy to fall into the circles of your market or industry or whatever and then start valuing what they say is important. And that can be a big distraction. Yeah. I mean, that's one of the things I've always encouraged younger children's book, illustrators, people wanting to get into it is like, are you around kids ever? And I was like, and then some of them were like, no, I'm not around kids or I don't have kids. And I'm like, well, try to figure out a way that you can be around kids. Like, cause there's the really easiest way is you can volunteer very easily at an elementary school in your city.
49:19And they have like, like I mentor at an elementary school nearby. And it's only like a half hour of my week. But then I get so many stories. In the case of 30 Minutes, like the other day I was there, and these girls were taking the trash out for their teacher. And as they were dragging it down the hall, they were leaving this long, slimy yogurt. It was like all Yoplait. I don't know if that bag was entire Yoplait discarded packages, but it was like Yoplait all the way. Like I was just watching them. Like I almost, I was like. Like I was like, should I say something? I thought I didn't want to say anything because I didn't want to get them in trouble.
50:01And then I thought about grabbing a mop because I saw a mop down the hallway. I was like, maybe I should just start slowly following. But it's just like, I just was there for a half hour. And I got that amazing image and story that I could use somewhere in a picture book. You know? It's, I love that idea. Yeah. I think instantly when we're talking about this in theory of like, you need to get around the people that you're making stuff for. it can sound nice in theory. It can sound like, oh yeah, sure. Do that. And that's such a real practical example of how to go do that thing. I think it's pretty, I think, I think other people should take that if you don't have kids, if you're not doing that, but even if you do, you know, your kids grow up, I think staying in touch with that is really important.
50:45That's super cool. And I think you could apply it to other things too. It doesn't have to just be that, And actually, even after all the stuff we've been through since 2020, I've been so active in trying to say yes to being around people, especially the kind of people that I want to make stuff for, want to participate in those sorts of groups because that sensitivity atrophies so quickly. if you're not, and it's the same thing of like, it's so hard for me to come up with something funny or a good story to tell on stage when I'm in my room alone. But when I'm on stage, all of a sudden there's a bunch of stuff that's just coming to me because there's something that happens when you're in front of those people.
51:31No, for sure. I love like, and I never thought I would with being with picture books, you know, all of us, I think assume we're just going to be in our studios working quietly. The books will go in the world and sell themselves. It'll be so magical. That's all we have to do. But no, it's like, I feel like so much of the job is now getting in front of people and really talking to kids and talking to audiences, talking to groups of librarians. And I do agree. It's like, and I love that part now. And I never expected that. I was, for a little bit, when I realized that was part of the job, I was like, do I want to do this?
52:07But now it's one of my favorite parts is the song and dance, man. I have two other quick questions for you. Yeah. The other thing that you seem to be protecting through all of that process is having fun. And that's a thing that I'm very aware of in my own process. Even the last picture book that I just finished up, when I went into the sketches, actually the whole process, I was like aware of how to make it fun, how to not think a ton when when I'm drawing, like just whatever I was trying to draw, I just tried to draw it without thinking and, and try to move through it quickly and enjoy the whole process.
52:46Because I know that looseness is where you get funny things and whatever. How, how, because you seem so in touch with silliness and fun. You do all these different things that seem, it just seems like it's really natural. How do you, do you think you, do you have any tips about what may help people access that? Because for me, my problem is this is my job. So I get, it's almost every day. I mean, I'm so lucky to do this, but almost every day I have to remind myself that I'm lucky and that this is what I wanted to do. Oh my God. That's everybody in this industry. I'm sure. But do you, what, what do you think helps you do that?
53:30Gosh, you know, I think it is paying attention to my moods as an artist. Like, cause sometimes I don't want to do drawing and stuff like that. And I mean, there's of course times you're like under deadline, you gotta do it. But if I don't, if I'm not under a really immediate deadline, I pay attention to that feeling. And I'm like, well, what do you want to do? And I like talk to myself like that. And then myself would be like, I just want to go play Stardew Valley. like I just want to go read a comic book on my couch like I want to go I feel like I'm a kid like in a trench coat you know like I'm not I don't think I'm an adult I don't think I've ever grown up honestly like all like like one time my kid was having a fit on the floor or like on a trail or something and then he was just like laying there and I was like you know that looks pretty nice and I lay down next to him and I was just like and you just start observing stuff like really get down.
54:28Like whenever I talk to kids, I always get down on their level because I don't want them looking up to me. I want to be looking up to them. And it's, uh, so I think it's just, just being, just being open to laughing, like just like thinking of something silly and like, get away from the screen, you know, like just be drawing something weird in your sketchbook, like draw like a dinosaur in a bikini or like uh just draw like like a bear like smooching a penguin you know it's just like all just sort of ridiculous stuff that you would draw as a kid but it's like like write some fan fiction like ninja turtle fan fiction man like me and the Ninja Turtles were fighting one day.
55:11Why are all these ideas just coming from you? They're right there.
55:20I think that's just me. I'm just like, my head's just open to the universe. It's like. I love it. It's so good. And I, you know, I think that's great advice. This is something that I learned from a buddy of mine who I do a show with called Color Me, Andrew Nyer. when we would go work, even when there's a deadline, he would start, he still does this. And it's always a good reminder to me. He'll start with like, we'll get there to go draw this mural. And it'd be like, cool. You want to go get a coffee? And I'm like, okay, like, I think we're supposed to be doing the work. And I'm just like anxiousness.
56:01But what ends up happening, even when I wasn't doing this full time, if I had two hours or three hours on a Saturday, It would work to start with kind of like in therapy, like a dropping in to what are you feeling? Because you might go get a coffee for 20 minutes and then come back and now you're like, okay, I'm loose. I'm like, you know, I'm in it. And the same goes for I don't really feel like that. I feel like just reading a comic for 20 minutes or whatever. And it reminds me of also, I've seen research about how you get better ideas when you're happy. And so I wonder if that's it too. I'm just trying to regulate a little bit before you get in.
56:43Yeah, I think you're exactly right. It's just letting yourself, like it is, it's letting yourself play, right? It's like, no, you have to be the adult, do this thing right now because it's this person expecting it. But if you just let yourself play, it's like, you know, for schools, like kids that go to recess do so much better with sitting in the classroom afterwards to do an assignment. And it's like, I think we have to remember that as adults, we need to play too as well. We can't, it's not like we're meant to be working these like 10 hours that we tell ourselves we have available to do art.
57:15You know, it's, we need to be taking care of ourselves and realizing that rest time is just as important to the art. I like that, you know, play is this thing of, you, you know, you can't play because you have to. So I like this, like, that's not, that's a, that's like the opposite energy. So I like this hacking your brain to get, cause you want to get in that play state while you're working. And so starting with like, what feels like play just for a little bit and then just, just slide into the work. I think I have been trying to do that a lot more and I'm kind of I've kind of been blown away by, because I've gotten to a habit over the past few years of really white knuckling.
57:54Like, I have got to finish this because I have too much stuff to do. And I've kind of been blown away by how much more productive I am if I allow myself just a little bit of freedom at the start. It's so true. Oh, my gosh. Just that freedom at the start and not making yourself just drag yourself into it. Like actually just being like, well, I really don't want to do this. Well, what do you want to do? And it's like, and then your workflow is so much better afterwards. You get so much more done. It's crazy. It's crazy. All right. I could talk to you for a lot longer. I'm very excited about your book, Miss Taco.
58:32It's very funny. It's good. There it is. You got it right here. Very funny. Very heartwarming. And I think it's really great. Everybody should go get it. where can people find you? They can find me at ElizaKinks.com or you can find me also on Substack. Just look for Eliza Kinks. Just hold some cheese in the air or something. Well, thanks for doing this. It was tons, tons of fun. It was. Thank you so much for having me.
59:19All right, I'm back with your CTA, your call to adventure. We like to leave you with something you can do. Not just feel inspired, but like, let's take some action. First, I got to say thank you to Eliza Kings for coming on here and spending some time with me. Had a blast chatting with you. Hope to see you soon. Best wishes for the book launch and what have you. Miss Taco is out. to go get it now. It's hilarious. Your kids will love it. You'll love it. It's just great. And it's got a great heartwarming message as well about mistakes, Ms. Tacos. We just did an episode not long ago about perfectionism.
59:55And I think this pairs very well with that. But my CTA, I'm back, permission to play. Here's what I want you to do. Next time you go to create something, I want you to spend the first 20 minutes doing whatever sounds fun before you start making the art. And so if it's, you know, drinking a Kool-Aid, if it's just going outside and getting some rays, getting in the hammock, if it's throwing a ball with your dog, if it's eating beef jerky, whatever it is. if your spouse sees you, your kid sees you and they're like, what the heck are you doing? You're supposed to be working. I want you to say, I got permission to play.
1:00:40I got a prescription from Dr. Pizza himself to say the first 20 minutes of the creative session today is going to be whatever I want it to be, whatever sounds good. And I think that's great for like slipping in the play into the work. Uh, but I also think it's great just for being present. And I think that's really important in the creative work. Like how can you, how can you, like we said in the episode, drop in to where you are and get connected with, well, what am I feeling? I do this also in a way when I go do a talk, I try to save the first three to five minutes of the talk when I get on stage, just to talk about whatever it is I'm feeling right that moment.
1:01:21And it's a hack for being present. So I'm acknowledging where I am, what I'm feeling, how I'm feeling about the talk, how I'm feeling about the audience, like something I want to connect to something that is real about what I'm feeling right now. And there's something about that, that makes me so much more present. So you can do that in your creative practice. You can say, what feels, what do I feel like I need for just 20 minutes and see if it helps you not just be more productive once you get into the work, but also more playful and more creative once you start getting in there. Because I've been doing this really consistently and it's kind of changed.
1:01:59It's really helped me too with just stress, chronic stress, just having a little bit more lightness to the work. And it doesn't have to take forever. It doesn't have to throw off your whole creative session. I know the time is precious. I'm not talking about spending a whole day, goofing around, although that's good sometimes too. Anyway, thanks Eliza for being on the show. Thank you to Sophie Miller. I did a whistle like I was gopher from Winnie the Pooh or that gopher from Lady and the Tramp. Sophie, I couldn't do it again if I tried, which I was trying, but I can't do it again. Sophie Miller, my wife, she helps me so much with this show as an editor and producer.
1:02:42Super huge thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for the audio and video edits and sound design and animations. Thanks to Yoni Wolf of the band Y for our theme music and our soundtrack. And thanks to all of you for showing up and listening. Great to have you. Hope you enjoyed it. Hope you felt inspired. Hope you got something to take action on. And until we speak again, stay pepped up.
1:03:25Okay, the podcast is over, so I don't know why you're still listening, but I am glad that you enjoyed it enough to stick to the end. I have one more thing for you. If you're in a place where you're feeling a lack of clarity and you want to figure out your industry market and niche and find the perfect strategic side project to do next, go sign up to our newsletter at andyjpizza.substack.com and you will get a confirmation email that will give you the download of our Creative Career Path hand booklet and the whole process is in there and you might also get a few bonuses in there depending on when you sign up.
1:04:08But again, thanks for listening. Glad you enjoyed the episode and stay pepped up, y 'all. Hello, this is Jack Wilson, the host of the History of Literature podcast. For the past 10 years, I've been talking to novelists, biographers, and scholars about the greatest books in the history of the world and the men and women who wrote them. Like our recent episodes on Dante and Love, a starter pack of 10 Indian classics, the pop culture that influenced Sylvia Plath, and a talk with scientist and novelist Alan Lightman about the wonders of nature. Join us at the History of Literature podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
From the publisher
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You know those people who are SO FREE and CREATIVE that spending time with them just opens you up and makes you want to be more authentic and creative yourself?
Eliza Kinkz is a human like that.
If you need some of that, THIS EPISODE HAS GOT YOU COVERED!
We talk:
PROCESS TIPS: How to keep the FUN, FLOW, and LIFE in your process so that you LOVE IT and your work feels ALIVE! Eliza’s process is SO INSPIRING.
KNOWING YOUR AUDIENCE: Eliza has an amazing tactic and story about how she stays connected to her target audience as a kids book creator.
AND SO MUCH MORE! ELIZA IS JUST A HOOT! ENJOY!
SHOW NOTES:Elizakinkz.comhttps://elizakinkz.substack.comMISTACO
Co-Writing / Editing: Sophie Miller http://sophiemiller.coAudio Editing / Sound Design: Conner Jones http://pendingbeautiful.coSoundtrack / Theme Song: Yoni Wolf / WHY? http://whywithaquestionmark.com
SPONSORS:SQUARESPACEHead to https://www.squarespace.com/PEPTALK to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code PEPTALK
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