516 - How to Recognize Your Ideas, Juggling Different Roles and More with Cartoonist Grant Snider

25:49It's almost more important for me to have a diet of things that remind me why I'm obsessed with art. You know, like it's funny. I don't know if you have that, but it seems like you do. Cause just knowing you, knowing your creative heroes, when you really taste something, you're like, this is it that makes me so motivated creatively is that kind of what you're describing yeah and I think the times that I feel like um lost in space to go back to your rocket booster metaphor it's because I haven't really been been you know filling that bucket but I haven't been refueling those those inspirations like I just need to take it take time and like go outside and draw something that's not related to a project or go to a museum and look at somebody else's art or go to the library and find some somebody's work I'm not as familiar with and just like, you know, I don't know, plant those seeds again.

26:44So yeah, I'm curious. I mean, cause you have a lot of different creative things you do. Like how do you, how do you prevent, um, burnout? I assume you're working five to seven days a week on your creative stuff. Like you don't have a job to go away to and stare teeth and stuff, right? Like, like how do you, how do you keep, it's not my job, but it's something that's your hobby right just open your mouth um yeah that's my other hobby teeth watching you uh yeah i mean i i have to there a lot of it's just down to uh that kind of thing where after it's almost a it is a discipline it's a discipline of i have a discipline of listening to new music uh that's coming out this year like i that's something that it's effort to do but i know it's important to me.

27:31And similar to that is like listening to a standup comedy and, and comedians talk about stuff, like stuff, stuff of that nature. It's like an effort to do at this point, but it's always like worth it. Uh, what, what things do you do? Well, no, I mean, you, not, not the music thing, because I just got on my iPod that's stuck in like 2007 and I'm like, okay, I really, I really need to get, I mean, I get recommendations. Music is pretty serious. I get, I get recommendations from my, my brother who plays music. He plays in a band and, and, but I feel like I don't have, yeah, I, I need to do more like, you know, things that make me feel 18 or 19 again and feel like I'm exploring and discovering.

28:15So, but yeah, I think it's just a lot of reading. So like, I have this, especially in the summer when my kids are home and my house is like a war zone, we know, with siblings, you know, throwing things and yelling and screaming anyway. I'll go to the university library and it's quiet. There's not that many, you know, people studying. I can still kind of pass for a student if I walk quickly. And I'll, I find this like the seat by the children's book section and they have this amazing collection, you know, going back to like 1950s and 60s graphic design type books, like Bruno Minari stuff. if you wouldn't necessarily find the public library to like new releases.

28:54This is awesome. Continue. Sorry. And no, no, no. And right by the picture book section is like the middle grade and the YA and the graphic novels. So it's like all like this universe that I know a lot about, but still haven't fully explored. So if I get bored with what I'm doing, I could just walk over, pick up a book, flip through it. And it's like, I just need to spend hours and hours here and try to read like literally every single thing I can from this that I would just feel so creatively fulfilled doing that. That is so far about 0.05 % through their collection. I love that because going to the library when I was in college was a huge thing for me.

29:31I would go at the time it was like the design and illustration books and I would just look at everything. And I was, it was so exciting. It was like a treasure trove. And I live actually, I live, you know, near several decent colleges and schools, um, the OSU library. I got to go check that out and go, I bet they have a collection. Um, I'm going to do that. That's a great tip, uh, for, for anybody to go just peruse any college library. I think that's a great, a great idea. Um, you're also like a sketchbook guy, right? Like you carry a sketchbook. Yeah. So right now I'm kind of frustrated because I have, um, you won't be able to see it on podcasts, but my sketchbook is this giant thing.

30:15Oh, you're okay. So it's this, um, this huge sketchbook, which is not very portable. So I feel like then I ended up getting like three or four different little sketchbooks where I can never find. So, but yeah, I've, I've had a sketchbook practice almost since I started my cartooning career, which I mark as like about 15 years ago now. And so I never, I'm never at a lack for ideas. If anything, I have too many, because I can always revisit those sketchbooks and find what I was thinking, you know, last week, last month, last year, a decade ago if I wanted to go back that far. So yeah, that's essential, I think.

31:09I was thinking about how I know that you carry a sketchbook around and I hear people be like, I'm not a sketchbook person or don't want to integrate the discipline of that. But it got me thinking about that quote around, I don't know who said it. I couldn't find it attributed to anybody, but I know it's just like a thing of, you know, if you want results that other people don't have, you have to do things that they don't do. And I think something like the discipline of, it's kind of annoying to carry something around all the time. It's not like, it's not just something that is a second nature until it becomes a habit and a discipline.

31:47I think that that's, that's the kind of thing you have to do if you want to have a different kind of career and path. But I, I was curious about, cause your comics, they have a lot of insight. They're clever. They're, um, there's a lot of ideas in there. And I wondered how does going out and sketching a bird or something you see, how does that translate into an idea? Cause that wasn't, that's not obvious to me. I don't think it's obvious to me either. Yeah. So, but first I'll say like, it never felt like, um, like I was being disciplined doing it. I always, so I'm a, some, I'm like, like a lot of creative people, I'm pretty introverted.

32:33So it's like my, sometimes my way, so I don't have to engage with people. So I think my wife has this, you know, this mental image of me at a family gathering and I'm off sketching, you know, in the same room as everyone where everyone's having this involved conversation. I'm either reading a book or on my sketchbook, you know, trying to get away from it all. And it's also an antidote to boredom. So like, if I, if I know I'm going to be like watching my kids basketball practice. And I know I'm going to, you know, be sitting there for an hour, I can either waste it and scroll my phone, which I do plenty of the time, or have that sketchbook with me.

33:08So, so yeah, to me, it's almost felt like an escape rather than a discipline, which, you know, makes it easier. But yeah, that's great. I'm glad you said that, because that's a great correction. And, and it's a good correction for me. Like, I think that that's more insightful to see, like, what are the things that you need and like rolling with them rather than trying to, I think discipline's important. There's a lot of disciplines I have in my creative practice that are important, but I think it's a good distinction you made that there's something natural about that for you that, and the other thing I'm going to, I always get antsy at all these like rehearsals and, you know, shows and all the games and all that stuff.

33:50I'm taking that. I don't know. Why do I not do that? I'm definitely doing that. Cause I'm always like, how am I going to, I got to have a few packs of gum and some skittles and mountain dew or stuff. I don't know. How am I going to get through like sitting, but that's great. I'm going to start doing that. I love that. Yeah. Sketchbook, sketchbook in a novel. I won't leave home without it. Um, but yeah, so, so like, I think it's just about those connections between ideas. So, so like sometimes I'll have, okay, well, this is like a fully formed idea for a comic strip. And that's just because I've been doing it long enough, I know, okay, here's like an image I can connect to another one, a path I want to go down.

34:25I have kind of my stock character, which is sort of me, but not me, if that makes sense. My avatar that I can put, put into these situations, but other times I'm just, you know, just mining for images around me. So like you mentioned like watching a bird. So like, yeah, I feel like my sketchbook lately has turned into like, you know, middle-aged guy bird watching. And I'm okay with that. we're going hard on birds too i'll see i'll see like 40 because we're yeah yeah it's a merlin app we're like collecting them like pokemon right now we it's amazing you gotta catch them all yeah no and i think i think that's like especially if you live anywhere near you know a place where like we have like birds migrating i think i assumed to the gulf of mexico i don't know so we have like pelicans like in the neighborhood nearby i'm like i didn't know pelicans were in kansas what is this and then I'll see all kinds of different herons and stuff.

35:16So like, I'm always noting, okay, I saw a new bird today. Anyway, it's awesome. Continue. Sorry. Although I heard a, I'm going to go on a heron tangent here. Okay. I w I was at home, um, watching like a suspenseful show. And, um, my wife Kayla was, it was, you know, somewhere out of the house and the kids were all tucked in for bed. I thought, and I hear this like loud scream. I was like, Oh, is, is what's happening? Is like a kid having a nightmare? Is somebody up or like, is somebody just being ridiculous? And then I realized my windows were open. I think it was a heron from the nearby neighborhood pond that was like making this, you know, unholy noise.

35:51So that was pretty cool. It might have been a seagull. I don't know. They're like dinosaurs, man. Yeah, yeah. They're huge. They're like pterodactyls in real. I love, I love heron. Have you seen the new Ghibli, the boy and the heron? Okay, that was cool. Oh, I loved it. I loved it. I cried. I was, I just, I loved it. But I forgot what your question was. I don't know. How does that, because I'm going to get a little bit pedantic here because I think that I'm asking this question for me at 22 who doesn't really know how to have ideas. I've learned to have ideas or to notice them, right? I know how I do that now.

36:36And so I'm wondering if on a granular level, if there's anything else you can talk about, like you can even give me an example of how a bird turns into a comic or whatever example you want, but where that moment of these two threads click, anything you can say about that, I would appreciate because I think until you're doing that, you don't know how it feels. And it is hard to describe, but tell me anything you can. No, I think, I think what you said, learning to have ideas. Yeah. I've never heard it put that way, but that makes a lot of sense. Like we think these ideas are these things like, you know, shining down or given to us in a platter that we're somehow mining for, but no, it's a, it's a process of learning to recognize what your ideas are, what you respond to.

37:20Um, and yeah, I'm sure I didn't, when I first started keeping a sketchbook, I'm sure I didn't know like what was, I didn't know how to learn how to have ideas yet. Um, I think just lowering, lowering your barrier to entry of like, okay, what should I put in there. Just put everything in there. Don't, don't have a filter really. That's a hard thing because I like to draw well. I don't always like my drawings. I don't always draw well. And most of my drawing, my drawings in my sketchbook are scribbles, doodles, ugly, bad drawings. And I could get hung up and be like, Oh, this drawing is not very good.

37:50I don't want to draw my sketchbook because I don't like that drawing. So getting past that is important. Just noticing, like noticing, okay, here's a painting I liked. Here's a tree that looked cool. Here's a random thought or a line somebody said that stuck with me. Here's something my friend said to me that I thought was funny that I want to include here. Here's a building that I've never noticed before that was pretty interesting. So just start with everything. And then I think you'll gradually know just by that process of not filtering, how you need to start filtering it. So one specific sketchbook moment that always sticks with me is for my comic, which I called Nature of Ambition, which is like when I did, I'd say early in my career, when I was kind of figuring out, okay, this cartooning thing is something I'll be doing for my lifetime, you know, for a real job, not just for this random hobby.

38:44I'd seen like scrolling in Tumblr in the middle of a lecture in school. I saw this image from like maybe the 1930s or 40s of this little girl in a dress walking an alligator down a stairway. And I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. That's an awesome photograph. Let me put that in my sketchbook. There's a girl walking a crocodile. What does that mean? But of course, I changed it to my self avatar character, you know, walking a crocodile down the street. and months later when I was looking back at that, I was like, okay, that's, that's the start of a story. That's the start of a comic strip. And so I use the crocodile walking as a metaphor for the, for creativity as a career.

39:23Um, the character goes through all these different stages of like, he starts walking other reptiles and other animals. He gets competitive with the fellow animal walkers. He eventually is pulling this whole zoo behind, uh, in front of him and, you know, loses control and is back to walking that crocodile. So from that tiny little image, scrolling randomly through my laptop in class came this whole comment, came this whole metaphor for my creative career. I love it. I think you said so many really brilliant things in there. I feel like there's, I'm going to do, I don't know when this will air, but I'm going to do a series about, I heard a researcher call it contradictions.

40:07I think about it like both and or yes and and it's like this um instead of thinking either or that creative people tend to think yes and they think i'm going to do this and this thing at different times and one of those things is being open and then being closed and so being open i think that correlates you when you were talking about just drawing anything just drawing just drawing without discernment just that's the open mode of, and I think it's why I've heard, I've had the same experience with free writing. Um, I've heard comics talk about this, like, and I think it's why the artist way morning pages is so such a huge thing for so many creative people.

40:51It literally just gets you free associating Ouija board creating where you're just like letting it happen. Right. And so there's that there's, there's these two pieces to having that idea where you're letting open flow. And then over time, it's annoying because I feel like this happens. It just takes a lot of time to recognize what of these, this stuff that's flowing is the kind of idea that you are looking for or that you work with. And that happens to me where I'll write and write. And like every once in a while, something will happen like, oh, that's, that's the kind of pattern that I'm looking for.

41:29And then I'm like, okay, now I can go and like turn this into something. And that's where you switch from that open to the closed executing something. Um, so I, I, yeah, I love that. It's a tough switch to make for sure. It is. Yeah. Why do you, why do you say that? Well, for one thing, it's hard to, it's hard to choose like what, like, say you have these, say you have three different ideas. They both look pretty good. It's hard to choose that one. Once you choose that one, you're, you're neglecting the other ones. And maybe you feel like, okay, I'm not going to get back to that, or I won't have the same passion for that when and get back to it.

42:02And I struggle with this with story ideas, especially. But then once you have that one idea you're working on, now you're having to sort of like take away your idealized notion of it and make it something real. So you end up losing some of that. I don't know. I'm talking too abstractly here, I guess, but you lose some of that ethereal free floating thing of like, oh, this is this perfect idea is now not necessarily perfect, but it's something, you know? Yes. And also, no, no, I was just going to say, and also the thing I've learned too, is that pendulum sometimes has to swing a few times before you get anything.

42:46So sometimes I'll do like free flow. I'll pick out of the couple of things happening. I'll pick this one. I'll run with that and I'll start like turning that into something. Then as I'm doing that, I'm like, oh, actually I'm going to free flow this aspect again. Now I'm going to go back. And it kind of takes a few, you know, processes to get there, to get to something that's like, oh, this is actually a thing. Yeah. It's been important for me to learn like, or to learn and relearn that like, you don't have to do it all in one sitting or one week or one, you know, year even. So like, if you have an idea and you've done that free-flowing association where you've developed the idea and now you're kind of whittling away at it and making it what it's going to be, it's okay to put it away for a while and switch gears.

43:32It's not going to go away. That's like something I have to constantly remind myself. And maybe that goes back to this thing of like, oh, I have to draw a comic strip from start to finish on a Saturday morning. Otherwise I don't get anything done. Like there's still this part of me that's like, oh, if I don't do this idea all the way through, perfect right now, it's never going to be. And that's completely false. But it's hard to remind myself that. That's so true. I heard recently about Mirakami talk about how he has this set times where he writes. And when the timer's up, it doesn't matter if he's in a block or if it's like flowing like crazy.

44:09He stops right there. And he's just learned to treat it like clockwork, treat it like a job. And that trusting that cycle just kind of feeds it. And, you know, if it's something he was like, oh, I wanted to do more, that just makes him start better the next day. Right. That's so hard to do, though. Like, I've always like, how can I use up all these last bits of creative juice, even if I know I have to go back to it tomorrow? And, yeah, that leads to burnout. So I guess that's why Hukumur Kami has, you know, written how many dozens of amazing novels. Yeah. I'm not that, but I did have a good practice for a while where I would write before taking the kids to school.

44:47and there were a lot of times where it was like oh it's just getting good now i have to leave but maybe maybe there's something good to it no the time boxing is important yeah i think it is yeah i i do a lot of that too um i wanted to ask you what is uh something that you felt you had really really wrong as an artist early on and then what taught you to shift your perspective hmm it's can i hear your take on it while i think about it sure i mean i can think of a lot of different versions of that i i have um one random one this is like a personal thing i guess these are both like more personal but an example is like i live in the midwest hate the winter hate it so much that i would refuse to even like get a winter coat right because i'm like i don't want anything to do with this thing.

45:41And then it wasn't until I was like, you know what? I'm staying here. I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to have this. I'm going to have these winters the rest of my life. I'm going to go find a coat that I'm obsessed with that keeps me super warm. And then embracing it actually made it so I don't hate winter anymore because I actually have a proper coat. And so that's just like a little tiny shift, but I've also had bigger ones in my like life in terms of how I move through life and think about life. Like I used to think that becoming the person I wanted to be would be, would happen by basically hating who I was and, and trying to overcome myself rather than cultivate myself, love myself and love to take care of myself.

46:30And so that's another, that's a big shift. Those are two that come to mind. But I could tell you, I'm sure I have a million in terms of being an artist of what I got wrong. I'll tell one other one is when I was starting out, I thought when I find my thing as a creative, it'll just be easy. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? And so I think I had to learn the hard way that, oh, the difficulty and the challenge is part of the process. And it doesn't mean it's not a wrong way sign. Yeah. If you were, if it was easy every time it would quickly lose its appeal, I think to do it. Yeah, I agree completely.

47:09So yeah, I don't know if nothing comes to mind, that's fine, but I have an idea. I mean, I think yours are more maybe profound than mine, but I think I've always thought you have to do like, you have to have just like one thing, like, like going back to that picture book idea. I was like, well, I have to have this one perfect picture book. You know, when I started that novel, I was like, well, it has to be this one perfect novel. And if you miss that chance or that, that, you know, one thing isn't perfect, you don't get the chance to make another one or do another thing. And I think that's completely false.

47:39Like, I don't think any editor or publisher or reader wants to have an author that just makes one really amazing, miraculous thing and then goes away. Like they want to see somebody try something different or learn and grow or go off on tangents and detours. Yeah. So, so like whenever I take on a new creative project, maybe it's a new style I haven't used before, a new medium, a new type of story that I haven't told, I have to remind myself, okay, it doesn't have to be this amazing, perfect single thing. I'll get a chance to try it again. If it doesn't work, I'll get a chance to build on it if it works a little bit.

48:16And maybe accidentally sometime I'll stumble and make that perfect thing. But that hasn't happened yet for me. Is that something that you think you learned over time or was there something specific that maybe helped you learn over time? Yeah. I think I'm just a natural perfectionist who thinks that, you know, everything they make has to be the best thing they ever make. And certainly part of, part of that's good to have because it keeps you accountable to, you know, putting in the time of making decent work, but the flip side of it is kind of crippling as well. Yeah. I, I completely relate. I mean, I, this is something that this is why I haven't made a published book around stuff from the podcast is because of that feeling of, it reminds me of on a much smaller, tiny micro scale.

49:06It reminds me, my version is micro, nothing, but it reminds me of Jonathan Larson who made Rent and watching the movie Tick, Tick, boom. And he just pours everything into this sci-fi musical that he thinks is going to be his ticket to success. And it just leaves it all on the court and just like pours everything into it. And then the, he, he calls the person at the end. He's like, what are you thinking? They're like, yeah, I can't wait to see you next. And you're like, Oh, there's a next. And I think that's such a healthy mindset. Like it, you're, you don't have to, this album or this song or this piece doesn't have to do all of the things that you're capable of, all the things you love.

49:56It can just be this thing. And then you can move on to the next thing. Um, I think that's a really healthy shift, uh, that's difficult to internalize, but it's something that, uh, is definitely inspiring to me. I need to internalize that. Yeah, I think, you know, I don't watch baseball much, but I've hit a lot of singles. And, you know, I think if you try to swing for a home run, you're never going to hit any singles. You're never going to get on base. I don't know. My baseball metaphor is striking out here. I think it works. I think there's also, there's a temptation to, I mean, I feel like in my own creative practice, I tend to, I can fall so easily into wanting to create hits, but those hits are like winning the lottery.

50:52It's so much of it is out of your control. And I do try to get into this mode of a middle-class creative, you know, or just a blue collar creative that shows up and does the thing and just has a lifestyle of doing it rather than having these memorable home runs, as you say, from the baseball metaphor. I love that. Okay. So lately you've been working, I want to talk a little bit about what you're doing right now so that people can go check it out. You've been doing a word project. Could you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. So a little over a year ago now, I came up with, I call it words of wonder.

51:36Just taking a single word, a simple definition, illustrating it and doing maybe four to nine of these at a time and putting them online. And people really love words. Like I had underestimated like the interest in, um, how people would have like comments of like, Oh, well, this word means this to me, or Hey, you should try this word. Like I was getting a ton of feedback for it. And everyone was always like, okay, when are you going to do a book of it? So there's no book of it yet, but we're doing like a card deck, um, with maybe a hundred or so of the words. Um, and so that'll be neat. You know, I try to do those kind of as like a, I hate to use the word filler.

52:12Cause it sounds like kind of derogatory, But, you know, when I'm like, okay, I have, I've been really pushing hard on this other creative project. I need kind of like some space to, to do something that's a little more automatic and fun and just playful. I'll go through my sketchbook, find a bunch of words I've jotted down from books or poetry I've read, look up these words and illustrate them with, you know, interesting definitions. And yeah, it's been, it's been cool. And kind of like an evergreen project because some of these words are like pretty frequently used. Some are like archaic words from like the 1700s, but even those don't go out of style.

52:46I love it. I saw the one you posted today and I was like, this is so cool. And I mean, I love words too, but I also love that you have all these different practices that allow you to never have to face the blank page, which is just great. You've constantly capturing stuff from real life without a filter, not thinking, is this good? Is this bad? but you're just filling this up so that you can always transfer some of that over. You're filling it up with words. You can always do something on that that's automatic. I think that that's really inspiring. Yeah, the blank page, it's terrifying. Yeah, you found some good tricks against it.

53:26Well, thank you so much for coming and hanging out. I am completely inspired by all the ways that you approach your creative practice. And I love your work. I love the kind of unique way that you've set up your whole ecosystem. And if people are going to go check out your work, where's the place you want to send them? Yeah. So you can find my newsletter at incidentalcomics.substack.com. On Facebook, it's under Incidental Comics. And on Instagram, Blue Sky, Twitter, it's Grant Draws. so i'm always posting trying to post one new comic a week i post one or two of those words of wonder a month and then i i'm always you know shouting about the latest book project so yeah it's fun to do highly recommend following grant tons of great stuff just lots of just like uh good palate cleanser for the rest of the the timelines and scrolling um and uh i yeah i'm I'm very impressed and love what you do.

54:32Thanks, Andy. We're a big fan of your work in my household. The kids love the invisible things. We have the feelings flashcards. Yeah, it's all great stuff. And your podcast is awesome. Thanks, Grant. Really appreciate it.

54:59Okay. Huge thanks to Grant for being on the show. Had a great chat. Hope to chat with him again. Feel like there are elements in which we're really different creatively and then elements where our practice is super similar. And I love comparing notes with this guy. Hope you love the episode. By the way, you should go check out his Substack Incidental Comics. Great follow. Great to show up in your email inbox. I'm back with the call to adventure. or something to do with this episode and this information, it's called automatic filter. Automatic filter. And it's called that because here's what I suggest you do.

55:41I suggest it's like a two-day process, but it could be an every other day process where on one day, you do basically morning pages. You take the free flowing, set the timer for 20 minutes and just write or just draw. Have no plan going in. Just start doing it. One way to trick yourself into doing that is if you really don't know what to write, just say, I'm writing because I have to write for this full 20 minutes. If you don't know what to draw, just start doodling, doodling what's in front of you, right in front of your face, and then let it flow. Sometimes a random memory will come to mind and I'll start drawing or writing about that or something I'm worried about right now will show up on the page.

56:25But whatever it is, spend 20 minutes just automatically, no thoughts, letting the free association and flow happen. And then at the end, stop, look over it, think of what is the most interesting thing that stands out in this little free flow thing. And then the next day, filter it. Don't do the free flow. Write and ruminate on that one interesting thing. And then the day after, go back to unfiltered. You do that a few times and you will start building a snowman. You'll start building something towards a real idea. And a lot of episodes of this show have started that way. A lot of comics I've done have started that way.

57:07And I think that this automatic creative work mixed with, not just letting that happen, but mixed with this filter is how some really, really great stuff can happen. So I hope that helps. And I want to say thanks to Grant again. check out his deck of cards Words of Wonder get on that also massive thanks to Sophie Miller who's a producer and editor on the show thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for the audio edits audio edits video edits animation, sound design this guy is just he does a lot of cool stuff for us and for others massive thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music and soundtrack.

57:52And thanks to all of you for listening. Until we speak again, stay pepped up.

58:2010 years, I've been talking to novelists, biographers, and scholars about the greatest books in the history of the world and the men and women who wrote them. Like our recent episodes on Dante and Love, a starter pack of 10 Indian classics, the pop culture that influenced Sylvia Plath, and a talk with scientist and novelist Alan Lightman about the wonders of nature. Join us at the History of Literature podcast wherever you get your podcasts. okay the podcast is over so i don't know why you're still listening uh but i am glad that you enjoyed it enough to stick to the end i have one more thing for you if you're in a place where you're feeling a lack of clarity and you want to figure out your industry market and niche and find the perfect strategic side project to do next go sign up to our newsletter at andyjpizza.substack.com and you will get a confirmation email that will give you the download of our creative career path hand booklet and the whole process is in there and you might also get a few bonuses in there depending on when you sign up.

59:31But again, thanks for listening. Glad you enjoyed the episode and stay pepped up, y 'all.