524 - How to Know Whether to Push On or Give Up

0:02On the creative journey, it's easy to get lost, but don't worry, you'll lift off, sometimes you just need a creative pep talk.

0:20How do you know if you should push on or give up? We start every episode talking about the creative journey, but if I'm honest, it doesn't always feel like a journey. It often feels like a series of setbacks and dead ends and obstacles and just difficulty, right? Like it can just be exhausting and it's not just one stage of the journey. It can happen before it starts. You're stuck in pitch land trying to break in, trying to get someone to listen to you, listen to your demo, read your treatment, whatever it is. Like that can feel incredibly difficult and just so wrong pitching yourself selling yourself in that way it can happen in the middle of a project where you are way into this thing that you thought was it you sold the thing you're making it you're loving it until you're hating it and you're like this is this cannot be right what did i do how did i end up here how did i think this was the way to go it can happen at the end where you're trying you've already made it it's in the it's coming out and now you're marketing it, selling it, telling people about it.

1:33But the more you talk about it, the more you're like, is this terrible? I don't like, what am I doing? It can feel so wrong sometimes. And I know because I once worked on a project for years and years and just kept trying it, pitched it and made more stuff, worked so hard on it. Felt like this for the longest times they're like, this is it. And then got so frustrated that I just gave up and just posted it on Twitter and was like, that's it. But that also became my bestselling book later on. And so I know that the journey is full of these stops, starts, feel so right, feel so wrong. And in this episode, I want to talk about if you're feeling like, oh, this just, it feels so wrong right now.

2:27I want to help you to figure out whether you need to push on or you need to give up. And we're going to start by talking about a common misconception about this wrong feeling. And then we're going to move into some of the science of how to transform, almost magically transform this stress. And we're going to end with an open signs checklist that's going to help you identify whether you should keep going or call it a day. Let's go.

3:08The cold is here. I used to hate the cold weather until I started to embrace it, dress for it, build a wardrobe of layers that were made for the season, and that is where Quince comes in. They've got down jackets, wool coats, leather and suede outerwear that holds up to daily wear and still looks good. Quince uses premium materials and trusted factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production, but because they cut out the middlemen, they can deliver the quality of luxury brands for a fraction of the price and bring you classic styles that you'll love and will hold up year after year.

3:47Still loving my Quince button-down shirt. I feel very legitimate when I wear it. I have been eyeing their affordable cashmere collection for Sophie's birthday that's coming up. Don't tell her that. And we got Quince's European linen sheet set. And let me tell you, nearly every night when we go to bed, Sophie says, I love these sheets. It's like our new nighttime ritual. They're soft, cozy, and the material just feels real and whole and homey. very cozy for winter nights. Refresh your winter wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.com slash peptalk for free shipping on your order in 365 day returns.

4:26Now available in Canada too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash p-e-p-t-a-l-k. Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash peptalk.

4:45If I had a nickel for every time, I got super excited about a new creative path and I was so stoked and I was like, oh my gosh, this is it. It all makes sense now. And I went really hard and then hit a wall and just bailed on the whole thing. I would have so many nickels. I would have like a huge freaking pile of nickels, like such a huge pile. I could build something out of it, like a sculpture, like a public art piece made out of nickel, which actually isn't that bad of an idea. I feel like there's a lot of money in that world, a lot of opportunity in the public art space. And, you know, now that I think about it, like my best friend as a kid, his name was Nickel-iss.

5:35It's like maybe kind of just meant to be. hold on i i'll be right back if i get back to podcasting i don't know i've got a whole new thing going on i gotta just check out the the ohio grant situation for these kind of public art things oh they're not they're not even open the grants don't even open applications aren't even taken for another month probably don't even want to make a sculpture next month so sound familiar i don't know i can't speak for you but i have this weird thing no matter how hard i try it it just is part of me where i feel like if this is the right way it should just flow baby it should just be easy it should just like i step that direction just the world opens up and i i have this feeling like if the sculpture thing is right the grants would be open right now If this path was right, that one cold email would be met with just a huge unexpected opportunity.

6:47If this was the right type of art to make, it would just go viral. It would just take off. If this was right, I wouldn't have to pound the pavement and spread the word on my own. People would just pass it along and word of mouth would make it work. If this was right, it wouldn't feel so wrong. It wouldn't feel so difficult. I wouldn't have to push like this. It just feels wrong. When I hit friction in my path, my nature is to feel like this is wrong. It's like if this is the right door, it should just fly open. It's literally like trying a door and you go to push it open and it doesn't budge. You're going to be like, oh, that doesn't feel right.

7:34I'm not trying to break anything. I'm not going to break into this place. Like, it's clearly not the right time. Like, is this place even open? Maybe later a friend is like, hey, did you try that place? And you're like, no, I tried. But when I went, it was closed. Like, the door wouldn't even budge. And your friend's like, dude, no. That door is just really difficult to open. It just, it's the kind that gets stuck. Like you've got to push through. It's gonna feel wrong. It's gonna feel wrong. It's just that kind of door. And you know this, there are doors like that where the key to opening them isn't a key.

8:24It's not locked. The key is knowing that this is a difficult door to open. you've got to push so hard that it's gonna feel wrong that it's gonna feel like this door doesn't open that's the way you open some doors and you've all we've all had experiences with doors like that and guess what the door to the art world is one of them doors you gotta push so hard it's gonna feel like you're breaking in and guess what that's why they call it that you never hear a musician be like i'm trying to find i'm trying to gently nudge my way in no they say i'm trying to break in to the music industry you don't hear an author being like yeah i'm trying to you know do my little tap tap tap on the with the little door knocker thing.

9:25They're like, no, I'm trying to break in. I'm trying to find my big break. You've heard filmmakers say, you've heard illustrators say that this is the name of the game. Why? Because the doorway to the creative worlds, they get stuck. When you push, it's going to feel wrong. But that's the key to knowing is that that pushing, that difficulty, the way to get through it is knowing that that's how it should feel. And this is the brilliance of the book, The War of Art by Steven Pressfield, which every time I go to say it, I have to think in my head, is it art of war or war of art? Which one is it? And that's why I had to say that so slowly.

10:10But that's the brilliance of this book. If you go boil it down to one thing, it's this idea he calls the resistance. And he created this space to say, hey, I've made movies. I've written books. I've been through this process. And one thing nobody tells you is there are times where it's going to feel wrong. It's going to feel stuck. It's going to feel like you are pushing and pushing and pushing to the point of breaking. And that that is okay. And just like when you're moving in a door that someone told you like that one gets stuck, you're going to feel comfortable pushing through it. And that information is what allows you to do it.

10:57Like 90 % of this show is that, is saying that there is a challenge to making creative work that isn't just like, you know, sorry it's part of the process it's a key part of it being enjoyable you know i'm really into positive psychology research things like flow that was pioneered by this guy mihajcik sent me high he wrote a whole book about it called flow and in that he talks about how the key to finding that flow that we think of as ease, that we think of as like channeling creativity. The key, he said, is 70 % mastery, 70 % just like you got this, but then 30 % challenge, 30 % this is hard.

12:0130 % maybe even this feels wrong or difficult. This feels stuck. That challenge and resistance and friction is part of the process.

12:34you know i think it was the last episode i was talking about the game elden ring i'm a huge elden ring fan i think i put 260 hours on that bad baby still going because i'm trying to beat the final boss in the the dlc and it just feels impossible but that game is incredibly difficult to play. It's really notorious. All the games that the people that make that, they're called From Software. All the games they make are really difficult. They're notorious for that. They're famous for that. To the point where when I went to play Elden Ring, I was doing so with the knowledge that this is supposed to be difficult.

13:20Every person that had told me about it, I had a handful of people that knew my gaming history and my taste in games. And they were like, you should play Elden Ring. You're going to freaking love this game. But you should be warned, it's super hard. And that's kind of the fun of it. And this has been such a massive shift in my creative practice because it's the same. And if I had started Elden Ring not knowing that it was supposed to be really hard, that it was supposed to feel wrong, I would have given up. Because when you start, the first thing you do is just get demolished by this huge boss.

14:02Then you walk out, you kind of get past that one, walk out, there's another boss that just destroys you. And you've got to kind of like sneak your way through the land and grind to get decent enough to get past some of these things. And some of them, a lot of people just like don't even face a lot of these bosses because it's just so difficult. They just figure out a way around it. And if I hadn't been told that, if I didn't know that, if I didn't know that was a part of the fun of the game, I would have just given up. I'd be like, I'm just not good enough for this thing. And the same was true in my creative practice.

14:34For the longest time, I thought, man, every single thing I'm doing, you know, I try to do editorial illustration. I try to do advertising stuff. I tried to do picture books. I was trying to break into podcasts. I have all these different things. Early on, as I was trying to break in, it just felt like, man, everything just feels like a battle. Everything just feels like a fight. But as I got familiar with people that had gone through it before, I realized that's part of it. This isn't a battle. creativity is like wrestling where the difficulty is part of the fun the challenge the puzzle is part of being creative and now when i go work on an illustration and i'm coming up with concepts or when i'm coming up with metaphors or analogies or stories for this podcast or for picture books and i'm in that difficult phase where i'm like i'm really like trying to work through it and it's starting to feel difficult and challenging, I think, I'm a wrestler.

15:41I'm a creative wrestler. This is what is fun. And actually, this is why when it works, there's so much joy. It's so fun. It's the contrast of this wrestling. And so I'm not in a battle. I haven't been attacked. I'm a wrestler. And that shift just makes all the difference. It's supposed to be hard. It's part of the fun, that is a massive game changer in your creative journey. But it's not just from my experience. This is actually something that scientists have studied. And this blew my freaking mind. I've mentioned a couple times on this show, but I don't think I've ever fully, you know, dedicated a whole episode on it like this.

16:25But I thought it's really so essential that we need to dive in a little bit deeper. We need to just go in with a microscope here and really look into it. So buckle up. This is a doozy. This is, to me, one of the most interesting things I've ever read. And I really do mean that. And there are tons of articles about that, about the studies. And here's the idea. It's about eustress versus distress. This is an article on Psychology Today, eustress, the good stress, leverage the right kind of stress to boost performance and enhance growth. I'll put some of these in the show notes. But here's the idea that eustress is the good stress.

17:20It's good for us mentally. It's good for us physically. It does good things to our body and minds. We need this type of stress in our life. Distress is the opposite. It is the kind that has a negative impact on our well-being, both mentally and physically. Okay, you have felt this before. You've been in a game where it's challenging and it's difficult, but it's also why it's fun to play that game. And then you've been in scenarios, maybe a class or a job or a family situation where you are under so much stress and it's distress and it's causing you so much harm. Here's the wild thing that I just can barely comprehend.

18:06The difference between you stress, good stress, and distress, bad stress. A huge determining factor on which stress is going to manifest in your mind and body is how you think and feel about the obstacle. if you feel like this is the kind of difficulty that I should expect. This is the way it should be. That I know this feels a bit wrong because it's friction, but I know this is part of the game. I know this is part of what I wanna do. I know that this is the right type of challenge. If you feel like that about the obstacle in front of you, It is going to manifest in your body as you stress, as good stress.

19:07But if you feel like this is wrong, this is in the way, this shouldn't be like this, it shouldn't be this hard, it's going to manifest in your body as distress. That the way that you perceive the difficulty is going to make all the difference. and it's why we have dedicated the lion's share of this podcast to that idea that creativity is a journey. It's an adventure and for it to be an adventure, there has to be risk. There has to be challenge. There has to be difficulty that you know when you're moving through that door that there should be some friction and that's why that picture, that metaphor is really useful to me because I can imagine trying to open a door and thinking, oh, someone told me it was supposed to be like this.

20:04And instead of feeling the stress of, oh, the physical stress of this is kind of hard to do and the mental stress of, and I don't know if this is right, and I might be breaking it and I might be getting in trouble because I might break it into this thing. I only have one stress, which is the physical push, just the challenge of doing the work. because I know, yeah, this is the way that it should feel. And it changes the stress of the creative journey from bad stress to good stress. This is huge. And I think there's so many implications, so interesting too, that I've had this experience. I'm reading it in this literature.

20:45And this is like textbook freaking spirituality and traditional wisdom from throughout the ages of that the worst suffering you're gonna have is the resistance to the suffering. And it's not just an idea, it's actually cataloged in these studies. And so what do you need to push through? You need people like me and people like the people that have done the kinds of things that you've done. you need to hear their experiences. You need to find the people that are willing to be vulnerable and say, yeah, this part, that door, that's freaking tough to push because it will give you what you need to know that that wrongness of difficulty is actually right how it feels sometimes.

21:56Okay, it's time for the call to adventure. Every episode, we don't want to just pep you up and leave you like, all right, have fun feeling jazzed. We want to give you something that lets you put this to work and make a difference in your creative practice. So this week, the CTA, the call to adventure is open signs checklist. I'll tell you what that's all about. So a few weeks ago, me and my family went to this curry shop that we go to pretty frequently. It's our favorite curry in the city. And we get out of the car and we're watching this woman in front of us go to get in before us. And she tries the door and she doesn't go in.

22:40And she's like looking around and we're like, oh no no we're not we all got our heart set on this curry and this place is closed for some reason and we're like whoa hey is it closed and she's like yeah i don't know like the sign looks open i don't know what's going on and we're looking around we check the hours we check the open sign we look inside and we're like hey there are people definitely eating in there like what is going on and so i think you know i'm gonna just try the door and i push it and i go right in And maybe there was a little bit more resistance than normal, but I didn't even notice it or realize it because I'd been through that door a million times.

23:21It was just second nature to me at this point. And that is pretty much maybe an overstatement for my creative practice because I still get pretty whiny about difficult stuff. But I have become much more tolerant because I've broke into the editorial illustration industry, the advertising side of illustration, the publishing world, podcasting, public speaking, all these different places. Like breaking in is one of the things that I do. Being an ADHD person that gets bored easily and wants to try a bunch of different things and have a really diverse group of things that I do. so I have become accustomed to going through those sticky doors, right?

24:06And so what I suggest you do if you find yourself in a place where it's difficult, you want to bail, maybe you think you want to do something, but you're like, I think it's going to be too hard, or maybe you just bailed on something, but you might still be able to salvage it. Look, there are times where you are going the wrong way. There are times where industry doors shut for good, where things change and there really is, that restaurant really is gone, right? There are times when that happens. But I don't know about you. I am too quick to jump to that conclusion when it gets difficult, when that door won't budge.

24:45You know, I can look back to all of these different times. The most important creative projects I've ever done. You know, the kid's book I did that became a bestseller or this podcast or even college, there were moments where I thought, this doesn't feel right. This feels so difficult. It must be wrong. But I've gone through those doors enough to know like, no, that's part of the process most of the time. And almost always, I'm glad if I just finished the race regardless. You know, the last, right before the last year of college, I was having this serious just chat with my dad. And I was like, I think I'm going to drop out.

25:23Like, I just don't really know if this is what I want to do. It just feel like I have these other things that maybe I want to explore. And he was like, look, you've got one year left. Just do it. Just finish it. Then you have a degree. And when you have a degree, it'll open all kinds of different doors. It's just worth finishing strong at this point. You've already gone this far, even if it's not right. It's just, you've finished it, you've got it. And then you can really make a good decision. And guess what? But a couple of months later, that's when I met Sophie. I wouldn't even have lived in England if that hadn't been true, if I hadn't stuck with it.

25:57And it ended up, that last year ended up being the year that I did the work that turned into my first little published book and all kinds of things happened in that year. And I was so sure that it was wrong because it just felt tough. And so, like I said, there are exceptions to this. There are times when the door really is locked. that the place really is closed and the business really is gone. That's all true. But how do you know if it's the exception? That's what the open signs checklist is all about. These are the three things you can run through that we did at the curry shop. We looked for the open sign.

26:37We looked for if there's people in there. We looked at the hours. And these are things you can do for your own creative practice. So first thing you got to do is check with people that have already been there. Me, that woman told me I'd been there a bunch of times. I knew what the door felt like to move through. And so one of the things you can do is you can reach out to people that have gone through this door plenty of times, people that are established in that world and ask them, like, is it supposed to be this difficult? Have you ever felt like this? Don't send an email to the most famous version of this person.

27:10And send an email to someone who is just a regular in that place and say, hey, is this supposed to be this tough? Is this supposed to feel like this? Or am I making this harder than it needs to be? Are there ways where I could make this easier? Check with people that have been through those doors. That's the first check on the checklist. The second one is check the hours. Check the hours of the establishment. Is it even open during this time? This is about timing. you know this is about uh is this the right thing for you to be doing in this season of your creative practice for me i kind of feel like my everyone has a different rhythm like if you're a musician you might have like a cycle that's three years long where you have the writing and the recording and the touring and there's all these different ways that that plays out um if you're an author it might be similar filmmaker might be similar if you're an illustrator it might be way shorter your seasons might be weeks.

28:02For me, they kind of match a little bit with the seasons of a year. And I've mentioned this a bunch on the show, so I won't go super deep into it. But for me, I feel like summer and winter, those are the times to catch up on things and kind of feel out what is the next project I want to really double down on. And then by the time fall comes around, that's a big project. I need to know what I'm doing in fall. And then by the time the spring comes around, I need to know like, what am I doing? That's a season for doing that difficult work. And for me, it's really helpful to have that because I know like when I'm in the middle of a book project that's challenging, I'm like, yeah, that's what I should be doing.

28:41It should feel like this right now. Or if I'm in the summer and I'm thinking, wait, why am I not doing anything challenging? I can think, no, that's exactly what I'm supposed to be doing right now. And it allows me to make that into you stress it makes me able to embrace the challenge of you know feeling like i'm not trying hard enough or the challenge of oh this is really hard having that timing checking with the timing has really helped me but another thing of checking with the timing is also like the flow cycle so i was talking earlier about how challenge is a big part of it it's 30 percent of being in creative flow.

29:20But the time where you have really gotten into this zone where you're in the mastery, you're in the flow, that's really the ideal center part of a creative journey. So whether it was my editorial or my advertising or picture books or whatever it is, whenever you start, that's going to be out of whack. It's like learning guitar. You're not going to get into flow. it's not gonna you're not gonna have a 30 challenge you're gonna have 100 challenge or 90 challenge hopefully you know i'm watching my son do guitar lessons and i'm like this is so much more natural for him like when i tried it i tried for months and i could barely play anything and he's already really picking up stuff and i thought yeah it's probably natural to be like not 100 percent challenge at the start of a creative path, but maybe 90 percent or 80 percent, or I can keep naming numbers, but you're not going to get that thing where it's 30 percent from the get-go.

30:21So you can check the timing of what is my relationship to this? Is this new? If it's new, a higher amount of challenge and not really getting in the flow state yet, that actually makes sense. Or have I I'd been on this path for a long, long time. And now it's like 95 % mastery, 5 % challenge. And the stress is actually, this is too easy. That's a different timing aspect that you can think about. And then the third one is check for people on the inside. Like I looked around, looked in the windows, saw people still eating there. Is the getting still good? That's something you can do. If you're looking at, should I break into this?