528 - Overcome Urge to Bury Artwork, Escape Overthinking, Cultivate Your Spark & Re-Find Magic

27:54What's the best place to start? Like, what have you found that really has helped you sort of make sure you're doing the things you need to do while also doing the other things you need to do? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a great question. I always like to acknowledge that there are just so many different circumstances out there, including people that are caretaking, including people that are in chronic illness, people that have huge financial liabilities for whatever reason. And I think it feels irresponsible to say, no matter where you are, no matter who you are, you can always be creative. I don't really subscribe to that.

28:37Now, I do think that you have to be careful with the voice that says, I'm the exception. I can't be creative because like we said, that editor would really rather you not do anything. Nothing out of the ordinary place because you might get thrown out of the community. That's really what, you know, it's worry. So you have to be careful with indulging that voice too much, although there are exceptions to that. The only thing I would say, or the main thing I would say is that the worst possible scenario that you could be in as a creative person is that everything that you're doing, all of what you want to do as a creator is monetized, is your job.

29:21that's the worst possible scenario. And it happened to me and it's, and it was a privilege and a gift in a way, but it happened a couple of years ago. I realized I don't have anything that I'm cheating on my career with. And it's, it means that everything is a job. Everything is work. I got what I wanted, but it wasn't what I needed. I need to always have some creative work on the side that is making me want to wake up a little bit earlier, want to go to sleep a little bit later. If I don't have that, I don't have my creative impulse. And so for me, it's really important to remember no matter who I am, where I am, there's always going to be the thing.

30:05And usually I think it's an important distinction to make. usually the thing that I'm able to make money on is past its prime little sweet spot of 70 30 mastery because I've really proven my mastery at it once you get there that's when people are like we'd love to pay you full time to do this thing that is just a little bit joyful for you um you don't want to do it anymore it's too late and it's you know I think it's it's a you can get like for the podcast, doing 500 plus episodes of it. The reason I can do that, even though it is monetized is because I've been able to be creative with how I play that instrument.

30:48I can think about, okay, this is our, this is the box that I'm creating within. I can do anything inside of here, anything that's inside of creativity, basically creative practice. And I have several sections. And I, there's so many episodes that are really about life or, you know, about psychology or about there's, you know, I've been able to find so many different pockets to keep it interesting, you know? Yeah. You can choose what direction you want to, you want to go. And that's not about time management. That's not about time management, but what, but I just thought it was interesting to say from the start, the ideal is that you net, that you always would have a new little thing that's really, because when you have that, that's to me, I have a strong feeling is deeply connected to dopamine, which if you're a creative person, you might have a dopamine issue.

31:43And so dopamine is really, I don't look, I don't know. I only know the very basic crap about it, but I do know that it's about chasing. It's not about getting. And so if you don't ever, if you don't, when I didn't have that little thing that I wanted to do for no money, no one was asking me, I didn't have dopamine. And once I do have that, when I'm like, I know, okay, I'm doing this, but I know I want to go do that. This feels great. I can get through my day job so much easier, no matter what it is. Maybe it's being picture book artist or whatever, because I'm like, I'm going somewhere, baby. I'm going to get like, but if I'm not going anywhere and this is it, it doesn't matter what it is because I'm just like, Like, isn't it exhausting to have to always have something?

32:30You're like, because like there's periods of time where I like, same as you, like I haven't had that thing that I've always like. I've typically always had something that I'm excited about, that I'm learning about, that I'm moving towards. But there's been periods of time where I haven't had that. And it's like, it's like, oh, man, I was like, I don't even know what to do right now. Like, just I'm just kind of just moving through life and not really like excited about this next thing that I'm doing. And yeah, it is. It's annoying to realize you kind of always need something like that. It is annoying.

32:58It's frustrating. But once you know it, like maybe maybe there's like a process and how you discover the next thing. I think. Yeah, it just happened to me. I think there's a couple things there. One is I think it's important to lean into what Cal Newport calls seasonality, the seasonality of life. And so if I get into, if I, I try to be careful about not going into a season where I truly have no hyper fixations because I'm, it's so detrimental to everything else that I do. And so I do try to have practices like my buddy, Andrew Nyer, he's a concept artist. He designs lights and he added a little thing to his webpage that's like special interests.

33:44And they're just a little list of all the things that he's currently like super jazzed about. And that, that is a practice, especially for creative people that struggle with object permanence, which I'm this kind of person where it's out of sight, out of mind. I can be so on fire for something and then forget it exists the next day. And it's so ridiculous. And so I, so having that little list, that's a key thing of like, if I start having, I've thought there've been times where I've had to do another practice, which is if I'm really hitting a wall, I will pause and say, when was the last moment in my life that felt like magic?

34:25When was the last one? And then I will, and there've been times where I thought, oh, it was a year ago. And it was this conversation. And I, then I thought, all right, I'm going to pull out that thread. And then more than once I can think of two specific times, it was a magical moment appeared like from doing that, which, you know, we could go into if you want. Stop and ponder. You're like, what do I need? And then you just, yeah, you go back in time and you just pull something. When was the last time? And I think you have to be careful of, um, that there's two, two things you could do there. One puts you where I was talking about, which is the potential of picking up the thread that, and that I do think is really important.

35:07What you don't want to do is be midlife crisis stepdad and be like, the last time I was on fire was high school, man. And your uncle Rico, like not, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, exactly. I'm not talking about that because there, because again, a lot of those things, whatever you were doing, the whole mat, the flow cycle is gone. Like you can't rekindle that. I'm talking about where's the thing that you drop the thread right as you're picking it up. And there's been at least, like I said, there's been at least two that come to mind, but it's probably happened more than that, where I've really hit a wall and then had to do a little bit of reflection of what was happening and then I just completely dropped the ball.

35:52I think that's really useful. And then on the seasonality front, if you really, really are hitting a wall, I feel like it's good to trust life a little bit. If none of that works and say, okay, well, maybe it's time to do some enjoying of the moment instead of chasing, which that's difficult for me, but there have been seasons where I feel like I had to do that. Yeah, it's a huge mindset shift, I feel like, to go from the chasing we've been talking about to like, okay, breathe, reset, think about where I am right now and all the cool things that are like in front of me that I can do. It takes a pretty intentional approach, I feel like, most times to switch to that.

36:38It does, yeah. And I can't live that long, honestly, in that period. The other thing you can do, I think, is I try to have a discipline. I don't even know how we got here, honestly. I don't remember what. That's how this goes. That's how this goes. But I try to have a discipline of, I mean, I do have one of the most disciplined areas of my life. It's so dumb is listening to new music. Okay. And I, that was something I am someone who is constantly like looking at the world and thinking, you know, if I'm looking at someone who I'm about to be 40, looking at someone who's 50, that's a creator. And I, and I think, oh, I want to do what they're doing, or I don't want to do what they're doing, or how did they get there?

37:24That, that sort of thing. I'm always thinking about that. One of the things I thought from probably my early twenties was I don't, it's fine. If when people, if, if you don't mind this, it's fine. That's your path. But I knew I don't want to be somebody in my forties, only listen to music that I listened to in high school because music matters so much to me and it brings me so much dopamine, you know, uh, it's all about that. Um, and so I knew like the way that, and I watched people do that. And I thought, the way that you do that is the reason you get, I think the reason you get super into music is because of an older brother situation.

38:06You might not have an older brother, I do. You're right. Okay. You have this feeling of, I have to figure this out or I'm going to be so lame. He's listening to all this cool stuff I've never heard before. I have to like this too. I have to do it. And we forget that. We forget that the reason you got, when I heard Modest Mouse for the first time, I was like, this sounds like, this is noise. What is this? He's got a lisp. What's going on with this? I was like, what is happening? And I didn't like it. I didn't like it, but it did make me curious because I thought, here's a guy, my buddy, that showed it to me.

38:46He loves it. And I like this guy. This guy's cool. I respect him. Yeah, I respect him. And so I think there's an authority thing too of like, I try to give other people a little bit of authority of like, at least to be curious about. And so that is a discipline that has helped me not fall too far out of those seasons because I try to stay open and remember, you've got to have older brothers. If you don't, you are going to get, you're going to get stuck in your ways. Cause, and I, and I think again, it's like a cycle where you have to, you have to have periods where you're in the, if you're in that dry spell, you need to find your older brothers.

39:28You need to go get some education, open up. Yeah. Hey, you're, you're my older brother now. Exactly. Give me some music recommendations. You're now my older brother and it's anything, right? It can be anything. Find someone that you respect that you feel like knows a little bit more than you in this area. And you got to have an open season where like, I'm soaking stuff up, even though I probably don't like it at first. That's really, really essential. The only thing is, and this is what everything in creativity, I think is a, has a seasonal element. It has a pulsing like swaying from left brain to right brain.

40:05It has this. It's cyclical. So you have to have that open season. And then guess what, though? If you stay there, you can't make anything because you have to go to the other season and say, you know what? I actually know something. I've got something to say. Now that I've formed an opinion on this. That's it. And then you have a taste. Then you're like, oh, this is what we should do. Like, oh, but you can't stay there either. Yeah. I have a friend who I grew up with in Ohio, my earliest childhood friend. You live in Ohio? I live in Tennessee now, but I lived in Ohio for like nine years. Yeah. I've been listening to the Right Side Out series, actually, that you plug a few times.

40:43Very, very good. Great job, man. Thank you. And I just listened to the third episode where you guys talked about King's Island. And I was like, King's Island. That was our stomping ground. That's where we spent a lot of time. Are you from Cincinnati? Yeah. Okay. mason mason ohio my buddy andrew nyer lives near there um i'm not gonna put his address on here but love that place uh the are you a y fan a y fan okay so oh your band the music sorry the band i didn't know they were from cincinnati yeah so cool yeah yeah so cool no uh yeah we had a few bands a few high school bands also that like came up that i still listen to and lou was one of them i don't know if you've heard of those guys but they they played in our high school and who is it and Lou.

41:28I don't think I have really cool. It's kind of like the same time. Like I've discovered modest mouse and a few of the other bands. I was like, Oh, it's like mid two thousands like that. Yeah. Yeah, dude. It was huge. I forget where I was going with that. You were talking about, sorry, I interrupted you a couple of times. I'm very unmasked right now. And that's, um, because you've asked good questions. So I'm like out of the box. Um, you were talking about, uh, uh, growing up in Ohio, uh, and it was in relationship. My best friend is, he is my source for all music inspiration. So he and I still text a ton and I'll share some stuff that I hear, but typically anything new he knows about.

42:08And I'm like, Hey, and we, and we, I don't know if you do this or not, but on Spotify, which I have some, I have some qualms now about Spotify, but you can create your little like shared playlist, uh, where you hear music they're listening to and you hear music like that. Yeah. Like a blend playlist. Yeah. Yeah. I do that. I love that feature. Yeah. I connect with him all the time on that stuff. That's awesome. Yeah. I think, I think it's really key. I think, and it's a, I do think the discipline aspect of it is knowing that at the start, you're not going to like it like that. That is the key.

42:39Acquired taste is such an essential piece to it. I think just push play on the car ride and just don't skip any music just listen all the way good for you just eat it for you yeah man do i feel that right now with a four-year-old who has his own opinions on eat it i can't eat pizza every night brother i know it's good i know i want to too yeah dude speaking of this is gnarly like literally last night he was saying he wasn't feeling good i'm like okay whatever end of the day he was laying in our bed and he just threw up all in our bed pizza all in our bed and i'm like no not papa john's oh papa john's i i that honestly i became whatever the phobia is of puking i got it when my kids were little because when they're especially when they start going to preschool we have three we have three kids and they were just like cycling through it like over and i started to get to this point where like if someone's like my stomach doesn't hurt like no no like i'm not gonna sleep for days like this is gonna yeah thankfully i think he's through it he's happy as can be right now but yeah last night was it was an experience for sure had to go to target buy some new pillows i'm like this is oh my gosh uh all right speaking of barf let's talk about consistency okay consistent barfing consistent barfing please if you are experiencing that call a doctor is consistency all it's cracked up to be um i feel like everyone's like oh you gotta be consistent you gotta just do this every single day you gotta do it uh how do you feel about that okay i'll say two things i'm i always say two things that's the what i all my it's a bright eyes thing all my thoughts come in pairs that's that's the lyric it's so true um but i lost my trying to thought because I started thinking about bright eyes, um, consistency.

44:34Yeah. I, I would love to say, I'd love to be contrarian on this and be like, dude, forget it. But I'm pretty hardcore about consistency. And the reason why I wish that I wasn't is because, and I did a whole episode about this. I wish I knew what number it was. I don't, um, I can, you don't have them all memorized. I don't, um, but I know it was in the past 10 episodes. It That's in the title. And it's why creative habits, creative people have to do habits differently. And I have a theory of how, and it's some of it's from like consuming a lot of stuff about ADHD and realizing that. And then just from my own experience, I don't, the conventional wisdom of habits says, if you do this thing long enough, it will become automatic.

45:23But here's the thing. I've been brushing my teeth every day for a year. It's not automatic. When I'm doing, I'm not on autopilot. I brush my teeth every day and obviously twice a day. Okay. For those dentists listening. Um, and I, it, I am not on autopilot at all. I am fully 100. I'm never more conscious than when I'm doing it. I'm like, dude, this is, I hate this. So the longest two minutes of my life. Um, and so I'm, I'm always, when I'm brushing my teeth, I'm walking around the house because I can't, I can't say, how could I do that? I'm prepping for the morning. I'm picking out my like clothes I'm going to wear.

45:59I'm going somewhere else. And I'm like, oh, I need to spit now. But I still, I'm like halfway across the house and I'm like, okay, got to make it back. It's so true. And so I know that habit science doesn't work for me. However, I also know that's at odds with the fact that most of the good things in my life have been something that I've been consistent at. And so what I realized is the metaphor I say in that episode is I don't have an automatic brain. I don't have an automatic car of a brain. I have a manual brain. There is no automatic transmission. There's no amount of time where I'm going to do this, where it's automatic and I don't have to think about it anymore.

46:39I run a few times a week. I try to do it every other day. And the only way I've learned to do it is the opposite of what they tell you. They tell you, do the same thing the same way and it'll become automatic. Doesn't happen. I have to do, I can do the same thing, but I have to do it a different way. I have to change the path. I have to keep the playlist fresh. I got to keep that. I got to change shoes. I got to, I got to do all kinds of little things that make it fun and novel. And if I don't, I can't do it. And so I hate this because it's hard. It's really hard. If you're a creative person, consistency is probably going to be the hardest thing for you.

47:19And yet I don't think there's a way around it. I often don't give enough credit to the daily drawing project I did back in 2011, where I was doing a new character every weekday for a year. I give credit to that for helping me flesh out my style and developing one of my most bestselling book. and all. So I do give it some credit, but the thing that I think it did, um, that's just as valuable is it just taught me how to be consistent. And it was, and the thing that was essential about this, and they do talk about this in the habit science books is it was a very light lift. It was like, I'm drawing a character that I could, I could finish this in 30 minutes tops are like, I can finish it.

48:06I could do it maybe quicker than that. Some of them were quicker than that. And so there was never an excuse not to do it. I could do it. I can find a way to do it. 10 minutes, 10 minutes. And if I want to take two hours, I can take two hours. Um, right. But I knew I could get it done. And it was a little bit, it was different enough every day. I think after doing that for a year, I could do, I could add another layer. Cause I'm like, okay, well that worked. Well, what if I just like add writing to that? What if I add like, um, these other things until now I've been doing this show for 10 years and that's an elaborate creative habit.

48:41It's like a, there's so many, yeah, there's so many pieces to it. Um, and so I think learning that muscle and, and also like you can flip it. I think it's really essential to figure out how to want to embrace something, not just because you have to eat it. Cause it's good for you. That's not going to work that long. You, you gotta do all the psychologists say that That is not what you should tell your kids. Exactly. It's not going to work. And so what you have to do is you have to figure out like, yeah, consistency matters. But a big part of that is that's the way I want to live my life is making stuff.

49:14I like this quote from my buddy who's an illustrator named Will Bryant. And he said, I make stuff because if I don't, I get sad. It's that simple. Yeah. I'm happier if I'm consistently creative. And so it's not even a thing you have to do. It's a thing that you'll be better off if you're making every day, I think. I love that. Yeah. That's a good word. And that, I feel like that applies to running and all kinds of other stuff we've talked about too. Like I, my day is much, much better if I've run. That's why I run. I've gone through a whole week where I know I've hit at least my three or four runs I want to get in.

49:48And especially if I get to run with a friend, like on the weekend, like that's, that's huge for me. Yeah. That's great. I, and it's the only reason I run. It's the only reason I've been able to run is because I'm just so much happier when I'm, I'm consistently running. Yeah. You need it. And if I go three days without running, I'll look, I'll be so grouchy and depressed. And I'm like, what is wrong with me? What? I was like, Oh, I haven't run. It's the worst. We are, we are so like predictable, but you think we're, we think we're not, we're like, Oh, I'm very complex. It's like, no, I just haven't run.

50:20It's like, yeah. Okay. So true. And I feel like going back to your year practice, I think what's one thing that I thought of when you're saying that is because you've done a full year of a consistent practice of anything, you know how to probably adapt throughout the year and you kind of know what it feels like now. It's like, okay, there were times where I did not want to do it. And then there were times where I really enjoyed it. And you can almost anticipate what that's going to feel like if you continue to be consistent or do the next thing that requires a consistent practice. So that's cool.

50:51Yep. And there were a lot of little moments in there where it was like, that's where I started to learn digitally to digitally draw. And it happened from, I had, there were certain rules. I was like, okay, these are the four colors I can use. It has to have a white background. I was doing four colors cause I knew, and I was gonna, or it wasn't four colors, four color schemes. They were in, um, like they all had black and each one was like a dark gray. The first one was like blue and yellow. The second, but they were like selected colors and they went on a cycle. And the reason I did that was cause I thought I am yes that and I thought we might screen print these so I need they need to be like minimal color and so this is the size they have to be they have to be white background that just a few things like that but then everything else is up for grabs and so I halfway through I thought I could use this to help teach myself how to draw digitally um to some degree and so I switched and so if you go look at the project and you know that you'll see it you can see that when it happens He was here.

51:52Yeah. Boop, that's it. There's digital. Cool. Yep. And that one sucks. But a few later, something's happening. But yeah, so that's an example of injecting some of that novelty. And there's a million ways that I've done that with the podcast over the years, even though I've tried to maintain the right types of consistency so that it doesn't derail the thing or throw anybody off. I've tried to make it kind of imperceptive. And I think I've done a decent job of that. If you, if you, yeah, if you listen to it now versus seven years ago, you're going to hear, so it's going to be so, I think so different, but hopefully it was just a little bit at a time.

52:35There's a through line. Yeah. And there is a through line. We already talked about running podcasting a lot. So really the last two other hobbies and like the guilt around not doing them in pursuit sort of of the one that you really need to be consistent with. So we talked about video games and you know, you need, you know, you want to get better at this thing that you really care about. I know I want to get better at video games. That's the main thing. Yeah. For, and for my instance, it's like, yeah, I want to get better at illustration. I want to set aside time to practice that, but sometimes I just want to, I don't want to do that.

53:05You know, like the end of the day, my kids are down asleep. Like my wife's reading her book and it's like, I want to play video games. That just sounds like a good, good time right now. I don't want to doodle. So how do you kind of navigate that sort of on maybe you don't feel guilt around that. I tend to sometimes I'm like, Oh, I could be using my time better here. Yeah, I really should be doing this, but I'd rather just relax right now. Yeah, I think that part of that's like energy management. When I had more full time work early on, when I was making that daily drawing project, I would do it at the start of the day and wake up a little bit early and do that.

53:39So that it's done. It's done. I did it that day. And then I don't have to weigh it up when I'm at my lowest point of willpower. Um, that's really difficult, right? Um, because it just drains throughout the day. Like, you know, the research says like, you just have so much less willpower, every decision you make. It's one of the reasons why I try to dress pretty consistently. And I, you know, I'm not the first to do that, but it's that thing of every decision you make is like another, um, withdrawal from that. Yeah. from the, from the willpower thing. And it's not, I don't want to be a super downer here, but I didn't play video games for probably a decade.

54:21Yeah. It's not, I don't know if that's great news, but I didn't really have any hobbies for about a decade. Um, and that was really about from about age 20 to 30, I was really like locked in on. I, and part of that was part of that came from having kids really early too, is that I had, I had kids and I had to make money and that was like 90 % of my time. And so I just didn't have any other bandwidth. And I, and I think, um, I think that was fine. And then in about, I think with breath of the wild, 2017 ish, that's when I started playing video games again, watershed that moment it was it was um and so i still try to keep it one way that i keep that in check is i only play one video game at a time so i try and i try to move through it and i don't want to like pick up a bunch and if i really don't like it i'll get rid of it and i won't play it anymore but i think that helps too is that like i don't i have a little bit of boundaries around those sorts of things that can eat all my time.

55:29The bigger time eater for probably most people is scrolling on your phone. That one is something I would definitely suggest. Don't do it. Don't do it. Yeah. Just don't do it. Um, it's such a waste of time. It's such a waste of time. I, there've been lots of seasons where I've deleted the more short form video stuff off my phone. And, um, I, I currently have it. I don't know. There's not much redeeming value. There's not actually. Yeah. Desktop is okay sometimes for me, but, but like, it's still this hard balance of like, well, I need to get it for my job. I need to jump on and do like one thing I got to.

56:07And then, and then it just sits there and then you find yourself back in that habit of just like, you know, where it is on your phone. I try to like hide it in like my app library. So it's not as easy. That's good. I swipe there immediately and just, I find where it is and it's, it doesn't stop. me. So I, you know, I, I think that, um, I don't really want to be the person that's like, it's unacceptable. There are elements of it that I do genuinely like, but most of it is pretty, pretty irredeemable. No, it really, it really is. If you, if you can connect in any other way, whether it's like a newsletter or even sub stack, I feel like it's a little bit healthier in terms of social media, even though it still is becoming a lot like Twitter in some ways with their feeds, but I think it's a better, better situation.

56:53Yeah. I think the other thing that comes to mind is I talk a lot about, uh, positive psychology, not positive thinking, positive psychology, which is just thinking of yourself as more or less a good thing at the bottom layers. Um, and working with that, I talk a lot about that cause that's, that was such a huge shift for me in my creative journey and in my life. One thing I think that gets misunderstood about that is that it doesn't mean whatever you do or whatever you want to do is good, but it does mean that there's probably there, whatever part of you is wanting that thinks it's adaptive, thinks that this is going to help.

57:33And it's the same thing. The part of you that wants to scroll is not bad. It's just, it's been hijacked. It's taken a part of you that is an adaptive thing that's looking for a particular nature chemicals yeah something the right kind of balance and your brain knows like we need that stuff and this is a never-ending loop of that let's go let's help let's get as much as we can and so it's not it's the same with sugar right it's like we didn't evolve to be around this much sugar and so it's not bad that you want sugar it's actually good it's that's a good impulse you like you need that kind of sustenance.

58:08And when you found it in the wild, you know, thousands of years ago, you should eat all of it because there's not that much of it. Um, so it's not a bad impulse, but it's that, yeah, today we live in an environment that's really hijacked our whole system. And so you have to be, you have to take it differently. The reason I say that is because it's not going to sound as good to read a book, but you, there, there's a lot of good reasons to, to try to curb that impulse and so much better channel it yeah yeah man i've been putting my phone across the room on like a stand and then we only have our books uh next to our nightstand that's good so so i'm reading east of eden right now dude maybe my favorite book unreal because like grapes of wrath is something we were like required to read yeah and i was like this is doo-doo i don't want to read this it's so depressing though too i had i didn't finish grapes wrath i think i read like half of it.

59:02I enjoy it. The language is beautiful. There's a lot of stuff that's good, but it is so depressing. Yeah. But to know that that's the Steinbeck that you were like supposed to read. And then this other Steinbeck existed and you're like, why, why was this not the one that we were supposed to read? This is so good. It's so good. Like I said, I think it might be my favorite book. It, uh, it's kind of, I honestly feel like the only, the, I always warn people, the beginning is like setting the scene in a way that I don't, I, that's not my flavor. I don't like when you're getting overly descriptive about everything.

59:33If you get past that, it's like watching a movie. It's literally, you're just literally, it's the way it comes to life is fantastic. I love his little asides, you know, in between chapters where he just talks about life and nature. And you're like, whoa, that was poetic. Yes, there's some, it's deeply like philosophical and it's a phenomenal book. Speaking of books, we'll close out there actually. You seem to be somebody who likes reading a lot. Is there anything you'd recommend people just starting out that like, oh, this one really like had a huge impact on me and helped me in my creative practice?

1:00:07Yeah. Do you maybe if you direct that more specifically, because I read a few different types of books and I like the ones that come to mind are more. Yeah. What were you going to say? So so you would you know, I read Atomic Habits. I think I had had the book a while ago, kind of bounced off of it. And then you had mentioned it again. And I was like, oh, I'll read that. And I think I did the audio book. And this time it really came around more clearly for me. And I really picked up a lot of what he was talking about. Just like making things you want to do much more simple. Don't make your end goal be this giant task.

1:00:45Just make it this little small thing that points you towards that thing you want. Towards that identity that you want to have or whatever. And that was huge. That was a big mindset shift for me. So I guess more in that territory, books in that space that have like really been like eyeopening for you or helped, helped you think more about your creative practice. I think, uh, recently, uh, I just had the author on Angus Fletcher, primal intelligence. That book's one of the best books I've ever read in that vein. Uh, I think it's, he is probably the most brilliant person I've met. I feel like that's, that's true.

1:01:22When you, I've hung out with him a couple of times and I'm always just like, wow, this guy's like on another level. He's so smart. That book is just like full of so many brilliant. The thing I love about his work is that he is everything he's talking about is outside of the zeitgeist it's the things that are missing they're the things that you've never heard someone say this before and he's gravitating towards that so it's just littered with so much stuff that is feel so true and also so novel and but very essential and also is a different take on my favorite topic which is storytelling or story.

1:02:11And really even more than that, that's the thing I think I'm not always able to articulate is the reason I'm so obsessed with story is I do love consuming stories. I do love that. But the reason I'm obsessed with it is because I think it's how we understand life. It's not about really consuming stories. It's about living life and living it in a way that is meaningful. And I I need to see, you know, the brain scientists call it questing. I need to be, I need to see a connection between my external environment and what I'm going through or what I'm moving through or who I'm supposed to be. I need all of that.

1:02:56And so it's a good take on that. Another version of that, I highly recommend The Writer's Journey by Christopher Vogler. If you like the hero's journey and that you're attracted to story thinking, I think that's a really good place to start. I don't recommend starting with Joseph Campbell. I've read The Hero of a Thousand Faces and I loved it, but it's dense. And if you're not already pretty familiar with a lot of this stuff, even like Carl Jung and that kind of stuff, it's a lot to like, you need some kind of secondary text to enter into that. But I feel like that those things are the most essential.

1:03:34If you're thinking about like marketing stuff, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but terrible name because I don't think it gets at how powerful the idea is, but it's called growth hacker marketing. now at the time it probably really sold some books um yes but it didn't age very well and it's only it sounds like it's only for a certain crowd but it's by ryan holiday ryan holiday and it's just one of the me too and i i mean i think he's a brilliant dude really great writer and i love that book it's like um it's it really gets at if you're gonna put something out in the world and you're doing so for anybody else, it gets into finding that product market fit, finding like, how do you keep the consumer in mind in a way that you don't lose your taste and your perspective.

1:04:30And it's a really small book and I highly recommend it. I love small books. Me too. Dude, I love small books. You finish it. You're like, yes. Another book. I achieved this. I'm such a reader. yes well cool man um thank you so much again for your time and thanks for doing this it was sitting on here it was awesome you did your your questions are great i appreciate it appreciate it um before we close out i want to shoot some rapid fire yeah let's go away um so physical or digital illustration physical i know that's that's a hard one i'm sorry it has to be physical favorite illustration utensil or tool pencil pencil i had the black wing um like this is like uh it's soft and it creates dark line and you i love the way i draw i have this like little bump on my finger because i draw so intensely i'm like so it's just i love it yeah huge fan love that favorite project you've gotten to work on so far that's a tough one i i think i'd have to probably say invisible things but right side out is up there for sure and uh yeah this one right here that guy right there man i that's one of my favorites and we're doing some other stuff with invisible things that we haven't fully announced and i would say they're definitely up there then the one we're currently in the middle of I have very, very high hopes for.

1:05:59So it might be that. I'm excited for you. Very cool. Thanks. Favorite video game? Yeah. Sorry, man. You know, I think all time, I've got to have, I've got to say the Zelda franchise. I have to say like, my favorite one is A Link to the Past because like invisible things, you're going into an invisible world, another realm. That's like my, I'm just so obsessed with that. So I'm going to say Link to the Past. where am I? I love that. Yes, man. So nostalgic too. Oh, yeah. That's where I think Zelda really, really kicked off. I feel like that's where it really, really started. Oh, yeah. Great. 100%.

1:06:38Favorite console then? Right now it's the PS5. Ah, okay. I love it. You know, Nintendo, I super respect their dedication to novelty. They've gotten weirder over time. Like if you think about like Mario Odyssey, that a lot of these games started getting weirder and weirder. I very much respect it. But I've gone the other way in terms of I love Elden Ring because it's so difficult. And all the Nintendo games have gotten progressively easier. A little bit easier. You know, and so, yeah, I think right now I got to say PS5. Good. Wow, that's awesome. yeah ps5 has been it's been a fun console but i feel like this this console has seen less big hits like less big releases it's true like yeah well we've had some really really cool third party stuff like i feel like sony itself has not been putting out that as much that have been like yeah very like astrobot is awesome i haven't played it but i heard it's great yeah check it out if you like platformers very good yeah um favorite 90s cartoon i probably are real monsters and you can see that in invisible things it's definitely an inspiration um i i loved anything i still do love anything that has like a super never-ending cast of characters that's why i love x-men would be up there for 90s cartoon for the same reason it's a great theme song i just love i mean even the theme song it's just like a hundred characters i just love yeah i love all every time there's a new mutant i love when there was crossover spider-man you know like i love that and that's why i liked pokemon i and that's what invisible things is just kind of like a never-ending character creation letter like yeah it is yeah good shout out i love those like group shots and are real monsters and there are a bunch of monsters you never even get to know what their name is like i love that love that yeah and then And last but certainly not least, favorite movie?

1:08:44Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, I think I have to say. Oh, wow. I love that movie. And a close tie is Spirited Away, both of which I think get at the heart of creativity, which is the unconscious, the dream state, this generative inner self. I love dreams because they, I mean, I love them for so many reasons, but one of the reasons is they're just the proof of your creative potential. Instantaneously, you create characters, setting, plot, conflict. I mean, you're doing it. You're literally just - All while you're unconscious, while you're asleep. While you're asleep. You're doing it while you're asleep, man.

1:09:31You're creative in your sleep. And so - You're made to do that. Yeah, dude, I love it. And I, and I love both of those movies capture what it feels like to dream, um, to be fully lost in that feeling. Spirited away. I remember when that came out, that was the first time I had seen a Miyazaki film. It was the first one I saw too. And I was just like, what? I was like, what is this? And it's getting awards. Like what, what is this? And then my whole world was opened up after that. So it's the same, same thing with modest mouse. When I was working at the movie theater at the time, uh, and I had a friend that's like, you gotta watch this.

1:10:07And I just, there was, I hadn't watched anything anime. I didn't really know anything about this world. And I just was like, I don't think it's for me. And then one day I had a sick day when I was in college and it was on HBO or something. And I was like, all right, whatever. I'll watch this. And I was never the same. it was a time before dude it was after oh man i just i love that i i love that movie too because i'm such a nerd about story i love story structure i i just like i'm in a i've been in a good decade of a season where i've been really into that and it's so breaks all of those rules there's elements of it that are hero journey-esque um heroine's journey-esque too there's some there's a lot of those stuff at play but miyazaki is just he seems like so dedicated to the subconscious like letting it do its thing and so you just i love that it makes me cry and i'm like why am i crying what's happening i like what is supposed to be a happy movie just like but it's just gonna make any like the plot points are like what he's a river well i don't what does it mean i don't know why is this you know like that so i love that i just love yeah love love so good well that's all i had those are all the questions the rapid fire questions i had thank you again so much for having me on yeah i'll uh i'll let you close it out i don't know what to say in any way that's fine uh thanks for doing this where can people find your journey yeah so i have a little instagram page and i'm forming one maybe on substat called stanky art cool stanky love it t-a-n-k-y art and I'm just throwing some crappy doodles up on there and, and, uh, just trying to, trying to process out, seeing how it goes.

1:11:59Nice, man. Well, thanks for doing this. This was, this was great. It was awesome. Thank you.

1:12:21All right, I'm back with our call to adventure. Thanks to Jake first, I have to say. Thank you for taking the time and doing such a great job. It was a blast chatting with you. So, hey, if you enjoyed this episode and you want to throw your name into the ring for doing one of these style Ask Dr. Pee-pa. Pee-pa.

1:12:45Ask Dr. Pee-pa. Ask Dr. Pizza episodes. Send me an email with some questions that you'd want to consider chatting about and we'll let you know if it's a good fit. you can email me at hi at andyjpizza.com thanks to jake here's your cta your call to adventure this week it's called name your older brother it's we talked about this in the episode everybody needs an older brother or an older sister an older person who you can give a little authority to who you can trust maybe know something you don't know and taste some of the stuff that they're into even if on first blush, it's not doing it for you.

1:13:30I think that acquired taste process is something that, I think the reason why a lot of people in later in life lose their creativity is because their taste expires. And it's because they forgot that what got them into this was opening up, admitting you didn't know. And then, yeah, going into a season where you do know something, and you do have an opinion, you do have a point of view and you execute on that, but then you've got to open back up. And so this is an experiment, an exercise just to think about who is my older brother right now? Where am I finding new stuff? Where am I giving some authority to?

1:14:13How am I having a discipline of trying new things and giving them enough time to grow on you? So for me, I still read pitchfork.com for some music recommendations. I also have some other outlets, but I, and I have a way of relating to them. I don't really agree with them on a ton of stuff, but if they give, if they give an album best new music and they rate it over like an 8.8, I'm going to listen to it. And most of the time I don't like it, but I'm going to listen to it a couple of times. And that's one of the ways that I've kept my taste evolving. And then I also moved out of pitchfork.com and I have some other places where I find new music too, but you got to have, you got to know where those places are.

1:15:00And it's not just music. It could be movies. It could be the medium that you create within. I think it's really important to keep your ear to the ground when finding new music and finding new art to be into. All right. That's it. Thank you for listening. Massive thanks to Sophie Miller for just, I'm just thinking about the mistakes I've made. Not in life, but those two, just in trying to record this in bit. Thanks to Sobey Miller for being an editor and producer on this show. Thanks to Connor Jones for the sound design, audio, edits, animation, video stuff. Connor Jones of Pinning Beautiful, did I say that?

1:15:45That's who does it. But massive thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music and soundtrack. Until we speak again, stay pepped up, y 'all.

1:16:15Okay, the podcast is over, so I don't know why you're still listening, but I am glad that you enjoyed it enough to stick to the end. I have one more thing for you. If you're in a place where you're feeling a lack of clarity and you wanna figure out your industry market and niche and find the perfect strategic side project to do next, go sign up to our newsletter at andyjpizza.substack.com and you will get a confirmation email that will give you the download of our creative career path hand booklet, and the whole process is in there. And you might also get a few bonuses in there depending on when you sign up.

1:16:59But again, thanks for listening. Glad you enjoyed the episode and stay pepped up, y 'all. Hello, this is Jack Wilson, the host of the History of Literature podcast. For the past 10 years, I've been talking to novelists, biographers, and scholars about the greatest books in the history of the world and the men and women who wrote them. Like our recent episodes on Dante and Love, a starter pack of 10 Indian classics, the pop culture that influenced Sylvia Plath, and a talk with scientist and novelist Alan Lightman about the wonders of nature. Join us at the History of Literature podcast wherever you get your podcasts.