534 - New Fire for Sticking to the Path with Filmmaker Seth Worley

33:54Um, I'm sure. Yeah. Like I'm wondering if there are just things where you're like, I learned that thing and I wouldn't have been able to pull it off if I hadn't. Yes, for sure. So like everything from, I actually, the big, I think the biggest one was I, the movie had been written. We had taken it out. Um, Tony was attached early on as a producer and as a star. Yep. And I, I, I had known Tony already from a, I'd written a spec script years, years before after a short film of mine had gone viral and we had been able to attach actors and Tony was one of those actors. The movie never got made, but he was very sweet.

34:34And we remained friends since then. And after I moved to LA, we reconnected and, and that was around the time I thought of this movie and, you know, thought of him immediately for it. And, uh, He had come on board. He had gotten his agents. I didn't, I didn't really have any representation by that point. So it was very much just like living off of Tony's street cred and connections and everything. He was so, he was like so passionate about the movie and stayed with it all this time and fought for it. Even when I had kind of given up on it. And so we'd taken it out a couple, we took it out once in 2019.

35:12We took it out once again, like mid pandemic, weirdly, like over zoom. And then we did one more 2021. So that's three times we took it out to like studios and streamers and with like different things changed about it, different, like the tone shifted drastically. I'll talk about that. So yeah, I was going somewhere, but actually something happened before that that was really important was that I had made a short film that was as a, that was a proof of commensity, a proof of concept for the movie. It was called darker colors. That was the name of the movie originally. And, uh, my boss at red giant Maxon was, um, he, where I make a, I've made most of my short films offered, asked me if I wanted to make a short film for the movie, uh, that would serve as like a pitch piece for it, but would live on their YouTube channel and stuff.

36:03And so that's what darker colors and it's out there. You can watch it, but it represents an earlier tone of the movie, which was visually darker, not like tonally dark, but like visually darker, had a lot more, more of a like John Carpenter vibe to it and had like, it follows music was like all the temp music throughout it. And it was like the sense score and was like really moody. And I, I mean, that short has really cool like atmosphere and tone. I grew up that short, but I, I learned all the things that I needed to change about not, not even the script, but just my approach as a director. And like visually it was like, this movie needs to be lighter on its feet.

36:42It needs to have more energy. It needs to move more like my other movies tend to, I got that John Carpenter out of my system. I'll put that in another project later, but for this one, it needs to be more alive and vibrant and more summary. and it's a great example and so that was like that was a big you know and i learned i need to age the kids up i learned we need to lean learning lean into a more orchestral score i'm so proud of the work on the short but it was very beneficial to help me learn oh here's what i'm not going to do on the feature and then the other big thing was like after i pitched it in 2021 i and everybody passed again i put it in a drawer and kind of gave up on it and by that point i was back in nashville an agency sandwich video now that I had, I had done a lot of commercials for while I was out in LA started hiring me to do, to do work for them, like direct commercials for them, but like out here in Nashville with my Nashville like crew and commercials were a thing that I have, I only just started feeling good at it.

37:46And they were just a very weird thing that I couldn't wrap my brain around. It was like, as a director where you're just like, i didn't feel like i knew how to put my like stamp on it yeah my stamp on it every time i did it like it got rubbed off immediately by the agency and it seemed to just inconvenience everybody and so i just always felt like an idiot showing up and being like cut do you guys like that or we like it like i don't know why i'm here the idea of just that's your directing style cut did you guys like any of that everybody on set every time anyone like anyone enjoying this what oh my god i love it so much the completely insecure director but like sincerely he's not taking out his insecurity through like yelling or violence he's literally like just sincere earnest you guys like this is this working that it really it kind of is me actually uh but the like once I started doing these like commercials out here in Nashville with like for sandwich, the quality of those commercials were great because sandwich is incredible and the work they do is incredible.

39:01And they're huge. Before I worked with them, they were a huge influence on me. Um, but they gave me a lot of creative, uh, control, not control, but a lot of creative, uh, uh, input like, and freedom. Yeah. And, I finally started feeling like good at this and like feeling what came from that also was like feeling good at running a set, like I'd set away the set is supposed to be run. Like I, like all of my short films, like they got increasing, the sets got increasingly and crews got increasingly bigger, but the budgets were always like very small and it always still felt like a DIY operation.

39:38And by the time, like, you know, by the time it was 2022 and the spring of 2022, to, which is when a friend of mine offered to find more money for it and then did immediately to make sketch. By that point, I felt good at my job in a way that I had never felt before in my entire life and absolutely enabled me to show up on set of sketch without any hesitation or like, or anxiety or fear. It was just, it's just locked in like, yeah, this is what I'm here to do. This is what I'm good at. And it was such an incredible feeling that I don't know if I would have felt if I hadn't, you know, had the 10 years leading up to it.

40:17Yeah, there's so much good stuff in that. One of the things that I think of is I pull this example a lot, but I love this notion that some of my favorite bits on I Think You Should Leave is stuff that they did on Saturday Night Live. Like it made it on Saturday Night Live. It was a skit on there. And then they just redid it a different way, the way that they wanted to do it. The thing is, no one knows that unless you're obsessed with it. Yeah. And I love this thing of. It's their second chance theater. Yeah. And I love this thing for an artist. It's so hard not to sit on the ball and wait with your great ideas and be like, okay, I can't let this thing out of the bag.

41:04And it's just the worst impulse. And I always just tell people like, and literally, unless you're Beyonce, there's no mystery to it. Put, try stuff, put it out, like try to do it. And then if it works kind of do it again. um and like that i i don't for a lot of i can imagine a lot of filmmakers and musicians and everyone having a really hard time putting out a short film version of the movie they want to make because they're afraid like well then everyone will think that's it well okay so my advice though on that would be one if you have an idea that you're passionate about and you feel like it only works as a feature and not as a short like first off i do think there is a mass there's a big difference between a short film i know right short film in a feature film yeah sketch made a really great feature in a really bad short and but i love the short too and i'm not sorry but maybe it doesn't exist in in the way that a short needs to to succeed uh or whatever you know but it's not my best short right my best shorts would not make good features totally makes sense yeah but what you're talking about though is so true and that like when you have an idea in here like what it is it's potential and like and the problem is like you're never there's all your brain is filling in all of these missing gaps that make it a whole idea but they in a way that makes it feel like a whole idea in your head and until you put it on paper or put it somewhere you're never going to realize how much work is left to do on it before it's going to be good.

42:45And so the quickest you can get to work in some way on it, I totally agree with you. And that's why, you know, I had this in the product that we made called the story clock notebook. And like it's based on my process of story development, which is like the second you get a bunch of ideas, write them all in a big giant pile and write every detail you can, no matter how disjointed it is. And then And it's all there and you can start to make sense of it using different like workflows and like tricks, whatever helps trick your brain into thinking that it's, you know, working once those ideas stop, stop coming.

43:20The thing about like, you know, I found for me another big way lately to like audition an idea or get it out of my brain and test it is just to start making a pitch deck for it. Yeah. And, and it's a pitch deck. It's literally just to communicate story. It's not like asking for money. It's not whatever. It's literally just like trying to create a cool moody visual presentation using a bunch of reference imagery. And I'm trying to like, see if I can tell the gist of the story in this deck. And it's therapeutic because I'm getting to, I'm, I was so jealous of all, you know, group in Nashville, all of these musician friends.

43:55And I'm, I used to be jealous of them because I felt like they were, had the ability to translate an idea into something much easier than me. much quicker, less needing less people, you know, all that kind of thing. Yeah. I felt a way about artists and illustrators too. I'm just like, yeah, you guys can, I'm so jealous of people who can draw. You have no idea. Like I, and I know I should just accept that I can draw and have my own style or if I want to learn to draw better, I can do that. But right now it's just circles and lines. That's basically what I can do. And they're, that's what my storyboards look like and whatever.

44:34but like I've learned, I've found for me that way of getting that feeling of turning an idea into a thing without having, without needing millions of dollars and crews full of people and, and other paying other collaborators and everything is just to start find any way to visually present the idea in its crudest form. And not only are you like getting it out of here so it doesn't fester because there is a shelf life in your brain, I think for ideas before they start to fester and become something else. Yeah. And also a bird, like a burden, like if this isn't good, it's yeah, it has to be good.

45:13I've had it for so long. I love that. I've had that same experience with like picture books and different projects we've done where if I can do like a comic version of it, the whole plan is, can I give you what I think is great about this? Can you get it in this, the most basic way possible? And then if I can't get you to do that, it's not ready to really even do anything with really like I need to, I need to nail that, but it feels really encouraging too. If I can give you the comic version and you're like, that's let's do that. Then I'm feeling like, okay, yeah, let's go. I'll do the next thing.

45:46I can put more work in there. Yeah, exactly. Uh, and it's amazing how quickly I will pivot from this sucks. This is nothing to, oh yeah, it's a masterpiece. The second someone tells me it's good. True. It's good. And so like, yeah, that's, there's so many ways where that practice has worked for me to get me to do the bigger chunks of the marathon that is a project, right?

46:31one thing that you said that I want to circle back to that I think is really powerful I wish I would have known it when I was younger sometimes I mean I actually don't remember what you said that made me think of this but it was something about when you're talking about after you've put this movie out which is this huge goal and dream that you wanted to do and then it made me realize like, oh, when I was younger and I would hear someone in your shoes talk about the problems that they faced after that or the things like, okay, I did that. Now I have all these other things that I want to do. Or now there's these new challenges or whatever it is.

47:15I used to hear that as you never arrive in a bad way. Like it's always a grind. It's always a journey. You never get to the destination. As I'm older and I realized like the dopamine is the chase. It's like the best news in the world to be like, yeah, after you get done with this big thing or this first thing, there's another thing. Yeah. You can sit and wallow and then there is a new challenge. Oh my God. That's such a good way to put it. Like once you scale this mountain, there is, there are more mountains and bigger and more challenging and more exciting. like this doesn't stop and get old if unless you decide to stop.

47:55Yeah. So some of the things you were saying, it just made me think of like, oh, that you're at this other place where, okay, you've been reviewed, you've put your thing out, you've, you've made that happen with help from these people around you, but it's really this dream, this thing that you've like pushed for a long time. Now there's all these other new challenges that you're going to have. Now you You got to keep those critics out of your head. Now you got to, you got to, you know, figure out what choices you, now you have to make choices instead of just like pushing. There's so much, even still there's pushing and it's like, Oh, there's going to be pushing.

48:32Yeah. Because it's like, I still like my, the movie that I've written now that I'm, that I'm working on is like, I say working on like, because I, I am still trying to get it made, but I'm finally, there is a, there's a little traction and it came a little quicker than it did with sketch of course but like a lot of the same issues where we sent it around and a lot of people were like just like for legitimate reasons like not for us love it though like and and it's like really like at what point are people gonna start like saying yes yes at what point will this be something yeah yeah and um i have to remind myself that a lot of it is like like yeah there's the obvious you know chances that like what i'm making isn't as good as what i think it is but also the fact that like on sketch i was trying to make something we were trying to make something i don't want to say i we it was a very big team we were trying to make something unique and special and that was really and because of that it was hard for people it didn't there was no box for like people to put it in people for buyers to put it in and what made it not fit into boxes is also are all the things that made it great and made it special.

49:45And I have to remind myself that like, that might be the case with this. And this is what happens when you don't want to write garbage. Like this is what happens when you don't want to write something. You don't want to repeat the thing that just succeeded. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And it's actually very encouraging to me. I'm thinking like, um, just to put a little bit more clarity on it. You don't want to get to a place where you're not pushing because you have that. The chase is so much of the joy. The leveling up is so much of the joy. And I, I thought, you know, for so long, I was like, okay, I just need to get published.

50:18And then once I got published, I was like, oh no, I need to get on like a list or we need to have a hit or something like that. And then once you have something like that, then you, it just, at some point I realized like the best thing that could happen to me as I'm living my life is that I have something to do. I have something to like, you know what I mean? Like, Like I don't want to be in a place where I don't have that fire to do something. You're absolutely right. In fact, it happened a couple of weeks ago. It was just a two-week stretch where suddenly I had nothing. I was waiting and stuff.

50:48Yes. And I freaked out. It's why like you can't – I don't know if you can see the way that our conversation is cropping my camera view, but I have tons of Lego sets back here. And they are all evidence of, I learned, I think this is an ADHD thing that, I mean, you of all people can tell me that I, I learned several years ago that one of the reasons I was having trouble relaxing on vacations was because of what we're talking about. is that like my brain wanted problems to solve and wanted something to be working on like and i suddenly found out one day on one trip oh a lego set tricks my brain into thinking i'm working and yet i am relaxing and so now i just stock the hell up on legos when we go on vacation and like i spend so much of the time like in the common space where everybody is work you know turn out these lego sets and like i got a lot of work okay i'm sorry Yeah.

51:49Dad's working on this gizmo from Gremlin set. It's very important. Well, that's one of the big shifts for me around like managing my mental health was when I found out that dopamine is a chase. It's not the reward. It's not the pleasure. It's literally you have something you're fighting for. So if you have a deficit in dopamine and then you go on vacation, you're doing nothing, no chasing whatsoever, no building, no moving towards, it actually just hurts. It doesn't feel good. Now I do recommend taking a break from the stress of building something that your life depends on. Yeah. Well, that was, I was going to ask you about, and not just cause I'm the writer director of the feature film sketch, but grief.

52:33Do you experience grief at the end of projects? Oh yeah, definitely. I definitely do. Have you dealt with that? I mean, you've been living with this one for quite some time. So. Monumentally. Yes. And the bigger the project, the bigger it can be. And I, my life was thankfully I learned early on that this was a thing. And so I've never, it's never been a thing that I've had to be scared of or surprised by. How did you learn it? The why where everyone else learns it, the director's commentary from Forrest Gump. Yeah. I don't, I don't remember anything. All life lessons come from that. All of that.

53:12I don't remember anything else from that commentary, except that at the end of the movie, the credits start rolling and then Bob Zemeckis just starts talking about apropos of nothing is like so yeah if you know me if you're you know if you're a friend of mine or know me really well you know that right after this movie came out I experienced uh I went at a deep depression that lasted for several years and I'm like whoa boy this commentary is just getting started right right as the movie is ending and he goes on to talk about and it's the first time I'd ever heard anything like this he's talking about and this is like you know I think I was barely out of high school when i heard when i was listening to this so it was like before any actual career you know he starts talking about how like at the end of a like a movie is like years of your life you build up this family and this team and you're all working toward this one goal together and then the day it comes out it's all over it's done the the saddest the worst part about making movies is that they end and like you get two phone calls on the on the uh opening weekend you get a call from your agent saying, Hey, did you see the grosses?

54:14And then you get a call from your, the head of the studio saying, congratulations. And then nobody else calls you anymore. And you're by yourself. And he was like, for the longest time, I ran away from that by making sure that I was jumping into whatever the next project was as fast as possible. And he said, But I've now at a point in my life where I've learned not to do that, that I run the risk of jumping into a project I shouldn't jump into or not being available for the project I should be jumping into. And I've learned to just sit in that grief and just let it pass. and like i'm telling you i could not be thankful more thankful to have heard that at the age that i was because ever since then it's like anytime we made a short film we put it out there i i knew i was ready like i'm going to feel sad like like varying stages of it but it's gonna feel like grief like something has died like i've made something and it's not mine anymore i'm letting go of it.

55:18It's, and, and I'm not, don't get to work on it anymore. And like my like group of collaborators, like we started calling it like you're laying runway. So the plane doesn't crash. Like you have to be prepared, you know, for that to happen. And thankfully it's like, there's so much more, I mean, it's the podcast I'm on. There's so much more emotional, uh, health and wisdom out there now when it comes to working in creative careers. But I think it's, I can't imagine going in this career and not having not knowing about that and having to discover that on my own and like be surprised by that like terrible feeling of like I just accomplished everything I wanted to accomplish why am I unhappy and it's not that you're unhappy you're just grieving that the process of making that is over and you need the next thing that right there is such a clear thought around this because I feel like there has been a perpetuated idea that maybe does a little bit of harm.

56:23You hear those people that reached these mountaintop experiences and quickly equate the disappearance of the dopamine, the disappearance of the journey or whatever it is as, oh, it didn't fulfill me in the way that I thought it was going to fulfill me. Therefore it was a waste of time rather than, and every time I hear that, I think that's like saying, I'm not going to ever eat again because I got hungry. Like that, you know what I mean? Like it's like, it was a waste of time. It promised me I'd be full and look at me now. Like I think about that all the time. I think, yes, okay. Maybe there are ways in which you thought it would fix you or whatever, put you in a bliss forever that it didn't.

57:05Yeah. Those are valid feelings, but also it reminds me of your movie. Like it's a place for grief. It's like, and when you said, Oh, he would jump into the next movie as quickly as possible. And that he would miss maybe a key part of the creative journey where you're like, okay, there's a point where I actually need to experience what it feels like for me. It's like part of the reason I need to experience a little bit of grief after being done is because there's so much of the process that I complain about while I'm doing it. There's so much on my, Oh my gosh, I'm dude, I'm so stacked. I'm working these long days, so many days, whatever.

57:42And then when I have this moment where I have nothing, I'm like, Oh, I like that actually. It doesn't stop. It's a good balance. No, it doesn't. But it helped, but absolutely is necessary to help us like, yeah, make that connection. And otherwise it's just, it's yeah. Yeah. Let me ask you this question. I wanted to, you were talking about earlier having these moments where people that watch the movie got it. I, one question I always wish people would ask about projects is what are the nerdy things? How many subscribers do you have? um that uh the kids asked me that too how much you make on that xbox project dude i had a high school kid asked me that like a couple weeks ago when i did the same the same thing and i just i told him i was like i told him depressing but i told him too yeah that's not gonna tell your podcast no but i told that kid me too i did too um because i thought well whatever i don't know i don't know if this will what this will do but um i didn't look at him when i answered because I didn't want to see his face.

58:48I didn't want to know how low or low a number it was. Yeah. That's funny. I mean, I'm guessing to kids, it sounds big, no matter what the number is. I don't know anymore. I feel like these kids are already richer than I am. Yeah. Anyway, it sounds like buying stocks. Oh really? Yeah. Like on apps. Yeah. I should probably monitor it close more closely. Like he's probably like tanking the market and like game stopping or whatever the words are but yeah shorting it um yeah the uh the um uh the question that i wanted to ask you was those nerdy things why that broke me i know what it is but it's still funny it doesn't sound like i know what it is

59:36sorry was it what you called it game stopping i did but shorting it is the other way i'm just like oh just short that i just want to ask him that from now on yeah just short it um the i wanted to ask you about like those things that people got uh what what are the nerdy things in the movie that you nerd out about in terms of most people are maybe getting on an unconscious or subconscious level uh but it's what they like about it uh those are my favorite things about a project and I want and I know they're present in a movie that has the depth that this movie has uh what are those things for you or what are one that what's one that you want to talk about that's a really great question I this is not an answer to the question okay but it's it's related in like uh early on there were a lot more in the script there were a lot more um easter eggs like in what characters were named there were like references to other things like actually early on Amber her name was originally Amblin.

1:00:41Somebody talked me out of that. And they were like, is her last name Jurassic Park? And so I intentionally took out every reference like on purpose, except Amber. Amber is still, Amber is a Jurassic Park reference because of the mosquitoes in Amber, but like, that's not meant to be noticeable or anything, but everything else is just like a real, it's almost i went out of my way to try and find like boring real names for everybody else and uh i just offended so many people in my in my life with those names uh yeah um but then like in post somebody was like pointing out that taylor tony's character taylor is the last name of the of the family in et um jack is the name of the older brother and hook uh and i could keep going Literally every character is from the Spielberg movie.

1:01:36It was like, great. And how many people that reviewed it were like Spielbergian this thing. See, that's inevitable no matter what, like the movie. And that was another reason I told all the department heads, like while we were making the movie, I was like, do not, do not put a reference in on to anything on purpose. Like we're not going to pick shots from movies based like specifically as I don't want to wink at the camera. I don't want to do anything because we're going to do it by accident. No matter what. Yeah. Yeah. and absolutely there's no there's i mean it was like i just i feel like you were no matter what i'm going to steal like outright steal from stuff that i love subconsciously yeah and we're all gonna do it and so like and i'm glad i did it because the movie is filled with shots that are straight out like there's you know the the shout the bats up draining psycho is the big one everyone references and i'm like yeah i forgot i forgot that was in psycho when we did it um there's so many shots from Jurassic Park that are like straight out of Jurassic Park in the movie but I think the stuff that I really like that I love that's in the movie so much it is the is like those actors performances to be honest is like decisions that they made and like little things that like were added to the script or added to the, the scene or like, I'm always really proud of how we solved problems.

1:02:56Um, and those problems were almost always, you know, we don't have enough time to get the thing that we plan to do things as we planned. And I've kind of heard this is the, the job of a director is just solving problems that's what you do favorite part like it's my it's it's it's really hard at times especially on a movie like we're like my the my favorite scene in the movie it's the reason i stuck with the movie for 10 years it is the thing that from day one i had in my head spoiler alerts for anybody who hasn't seen the movie you can skip ahead 30 seconds but then i'm gonna take 30 seconds to remember what i was gonna say like this idea that we spend the whole movie all the characters and everybody the whole movie thinking that this central character is broken and this little girl is broken and needs to be fixed and only to reveal that it's the exact opposite yeah she's the only one help like doing what you're supposed to be doing and grieving in a healthy way even if it's a non-traditional way and everybody else is broken and needs to get out of her way and this is the thing that i got so excited about get out of her way and let her be a freaking like freak of nature and save everybody by being her weird self and and in a like as badass a way as we could find and so that scene if you just skipped ahead and you're trying to avoid spoilers skip another 30 seconds the scene where there's this stretch of the movie this last scene it's a showdown with the with amber and jack against evil amber at the pond and jack's trying to hold her off with the flamethrower she pins amber jack down and that's the scariest part of the movie if there's anything in the movie that's scary it's really that moment because he's got the flamethrower and it's she's made a crayon so it's melting her and she's like dripping all over him and q who played q lawrence who played jack is giving this like he does this heartbreaking scream in that scene that is just like you call cut and you're like are you okay and uh that's great and then she wraps her like tongue around his neck and is trying to choke him and that's the part that like you know our distributor begged me to cut and and i wouldn't because the point is we wanted the movie to be the scariest it gets right before right before amber comes in and kicks the thing's ass and the whole sequence from that point up all the way through i won't give anything else away but there's like there's like three main beats that proceed to happen and those are like the things that made me want to make the movie yeah and on the day of shooting that we have to get that whole scene in one day which is a lot and we have to get the lead up of all of it in one day and i mean that's one of those days where you like go and sit in your car at lunch and you're just like, I don't know.

1:05:56I don't know how we're still going to have a movie. I don't know how to do this. I don't know how we're going to, and you just like eat your food, you suck it up and you make a plan and you start cutting shots and you get the thing down to the simplest possible version it can be. And then you show back up, you grab your leads and you like, and you're like your key, your key department heads and you walk through like, okay, this is what we're going to do. This is how we're going to make it. I think it's going to work. Call out to me if you think this, If anybody thinks this won't work, you got questions, but we'll get this.

1:06:24We'll get this. We'll do this. This, then it'll be this. We're cutting this. That is the best feeling. That is like, like, that's what I was put on earth to do is to like, yeah, I can make the plans. I can cast the vision, but the real fun is in like, is in set finding the new vision when your plans completely fall apart. And I, I thrive at that, at like, on vacations, like theme park vacations and stuff. Like I, me too. I, I never thought of it that way. Keep going. No, I, I have the, I have this all the time. Uh, and I, it didn't occur to me until we had made this a really ridiculous version of this, but I'm glad you said that because I was thinking of this in all these creative ways and it's all, and it's really true.

1:07:16And there's so much great stuff to pull from that. But then I realized like, I had a moment where I felt like this is my purpose in life. It's so dumb, but we had gone, we had planned me and my in-laws and my, uh, and my kids and my wife, a lot of these people really like a plan. They're the plan people. And then we got there and we forgot that, Oh, the, there's a huge event in town and we're not going to get into the restaurant we plan to go to. And it's not a big deal. No one's having a really hard time, but I can tell everyone's like, uh, and I'm like, this is what I do. I'm like, here's what we're going to do.

1:07:55Yeah. It's so, this is such a dumb example, but I remember feeling like he knows how to use the internet. They were all grateful. Yeah. There's other restaurants. No, but they were grateful. They're like, oh, and I thought, oh, I love the problem. I love the problem. Yeah. Yeah. I'm built for the problem. So continue. you. And the problem is only ever like daunting to me if I, if I'm not in a position to be able to react to it or respond to it. Like, and if there's nothing I can do about it, like I, I struggle on trips where I am not like where it would be rude for me to jump in and take control and start operating things.

1:08:29Like, uh, I guess that means I'm a control freak, but I'm not, it's like, I can, this is how I'm good at this. I can contribute. You're a director. Yeah. and solve these problems. But I'm, but I'm not your typical, like alpha, whatever director you can, anybody who works with me will tell you like one, I never notice this is all every other director that I know. Yeah. Like sees, they look at, if they look at the monitor and they see everything that's wrong with it. I only see what's working and I'm like, great. That's some optimism that works for getting stuff done though. It does work for getting stuff done.

1:09:03That's the biggest thing is like for the longest time it helped me survive in a world and like in a in a world of like in a season of your life when most people have piles of unfinished projects yeah there's no budget there's all these problems like yeah that i would finish stuff more often because i was pragmatic about it now now it's at a point where like my my director photography is like you really want to move on like you're in the shot you know like that's funny that's that's the theme I'm taking from this episode is, uh, I realized one of the secrets to managing my ADHD. Basically, how do I get through how boring so much of life is?

1:09:43And one of the secrets is, oh, problem that you're working on. Just always have a problem you're working on. I always have an episode to crack. I always have a metaphor to unlock. I got, you know, a picture book to work on. I got to figure that story out, whatever. Like I have that I'm good. You can set me anywhere and for any length of time. And I'm good because I can work on a problem. I actually love it. The other thing I wanted to ask or say, mention was we had an author on who's kind of a researcher, academic type. He has a book called Primal Intelligence. And one of the things he talks about in that book that I think is really incredible is this whole notion that the reason why you want to plan, become great at planning and have a really great plan when you go do something isn't because the plan's going to work.

1:10:31It's not going to work. It's because it planning exercises the muscle you need to make a plan when you're in the middle of the battle. It, if you map out the room ahead of time, you will know the room by heart when you get in it. You know what I mean? Like you'll know all the exits and like that. I mean, that's, that's the way I talk all the time about like storyboarding and shot listing. It's like you're doing that. so you are prepared to throw it out and know what you're doing. And I do the same thing in a small way in the interviews where I have a huge plan, all these questions, everything that I want to talk about and think about, I rarely use almost any of it.

1:11:10Yeah. But if I don't do that, the interviews suck. Okay. So what, uh, throw me one question you didn't get to ask that wasn't part of the conversation. Okay. So I thought, okay, this might be an uncomfortable question, but I think that's the purpose of it. So I think a lot about how finding your way as a creative person is kind of understanding who your contemporaries are, maybe even being, maybe in different times, you're fans of those people, but then getting to a place where you actually have maybe a critique or a different point of view than them. So you actually have reasons why you wouldn't want to be compared to them.

1:11:49Like that's really what you, I think where you want to get. And so when I, if I was going to tell somebody about you, even before this movie came out, I probably would have said, uh, I think it's in the direction somewhere between, uh, Lord and Miller and Taika Waititi and James Gunn. It's in this kind of sphere. It's not all the, it's not exactly like any of those things. Um, but I think it has a little bit of all of those things. Um, but also different. And I, and I could guess, but my question is what, what do you think? Not that you need to critique these people cause they're all pretty amazing filmmakers, but just what do you feel like, Oh, they're not doing this thing that I want to do or they're, this is the thing that they're.

1:12:34Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a great question. Cause it's like, it's, it's a question I'm kind of having to answer in another way. Like when I take like a, you know, general meetings and stuff, Now that the movies come out, there's a whole new list of like people that I, I have opportunities to get to take general meetings with. And like general meetings are, they're, they're just little blind dates where like where you're, they can be awkward. They can be really fun. They can be whatever. And like, there's, they can feel excruciating. Like there's, you know, I can imagine. Do you feel like you're performing?

1:13:09Yes. I also feel like trying to be like, it's trying to be interesting. asking me they're not asking me any of the questions that i have the interesting answer to they're like oh so you live in nashville what's the weather like there and you're like it's fine how do i spin this to something cool yeah well and yeah and i'll see yeah and so like i and that's really what i'm trying to do in any meeting and failing but um you know the big thing you're trying to answer to them to if they're to a lot of them is like what my voice is what is a Seth Worley TV show or movie? Yeah. What does Seth Worley bring to something?

1:13:45And therefore, like what kind of projects do if like, how will he fit into our slate of things? How could he fit into our slate of things? What projects do we have that he could, he could latch on to, uh, that we could, you know, give to him. And it's really hard, like for me to like, try and say, well, here's what I feel I'm bringing. Cause I want it to be, i can say yeah like you know there's lord of miller there's spielberg there's yeah i grew up at the altar of spielberg and zemeckis and you know i have i am now at the altar of everybody i'm forgetting uh because that's what my brain does is forgets everybody everything i've ever made uh and i know you're a future guys yeah i've heard you talk about all you can think of is twister yeah yeah when you start talking about movies yeah yeah uh and that was back before twister had a sequel and was like back in the zeitgeist it was like let's talk about twister guys yeah this guy just talks about twister for two hours for an hour and two hours good god that meaning is bad um but like having to answer that question you also want to be you want to sound like you're you have something fresh and unique to bring and so like this is my roundabout way of saying, I don't know.

1:14:58No. Yeah. I can, I, can I interject with, when I think about that question, you're my, I'm tempted to go to what would I like to do better? I actually feel like sometimes it's more interesting to say like, here's a bar that's lower that I actually like that I, they don't do. I can think about Taika Waititi and I think he seemed like begrudgingly making, being forced to make huge movies. And I think about you and I'm like, you want to make big movies or you. Yeah. But the problem is that the fact that I want to make big movies can hurt me in a way because God, Andy, you're such a genius dude. The idea of like, yes, my brain does go to, you're right.

1:15:42It goes to what I want to do better and what I want to do next. Because I just made this movie with kids in it. It's a family movie, but you hate calling it that because if they're live action these days family movies suck and it was meant for people without families it was meant for every human alive that was the audience right yeah but it has kids in it so it looks and smells like a family movie everyone assumes you want to make more like emblem movies and family movies and you're like well i kind of want to make a horror movie now yeah or i kind of want to do like an old school 80s like action movie like i have all these things i want to do and a lot of them i want to do because either i don't see them in the marketplace like what is my version of a horror movie is that I could talk for hours about what I wish the action cinema was, or could go back to being not that they're shaded.

1:16:29Great current action is out there, but like I, you're right. My brain goes to, here's what I want to do next. But like, they want to know what do you do and what do you do well? And the truth is what you then said about like, you know, low bars, like that is kind of what makes like really great comedy stuff. stuff that has this comedy infusion, like Taika stuff and Lorda Miller stuff. Yeah. And James Gunn is that you are, Oh man. It's like, I've always said that like, if you have writer's block, just think of the stupidest thing you possibly can. And the, my best story about this is I was years ago, years ago, like when I had a full-time job making videos that played at youth summer camps that were like comedy sketch videos and like these like narrative series things that were some of the most creatively fulfilling things of my life i get it and we did this uh this one where we did like three years like we brought characters back and did this like trilogy uh of a story and in this we when we decided to do it as like the second one uh we found out that the there were three main characters from the uh in the first time and then one of those actors uh just couldn't go on the trip with us we were going to take them out to new mexico and do this like big action adventure thing that we didn't do the first time around it was gonna be really fun but one of them couldn't go and so i tried to write it without them i wrote i wrote it to where the character couldn't you know i wrote the character out i wrote a version with just those two and the dynamic was gone it was like you had this dynamic between the three of them were like the lead you had the lead who was who kept telling me this is the most boring role and i'm like well it's luke skywalker's most boring person in star wars it's because the lead has to carry the story yeah so you have the luke skywalker then you have the goofy idiot character yeah and then you have the sarcastic like dry-witted character who the two of them play off each other while the lead is doing the story right yeah and and the sarcastic one couldn't go so i tried to write just these other two that were left and suddenly the luke skywalker was having to be dry and sarcastic to like to to balance the goofiness of the other character and it just wasn't working and so i started to panic and i was like god what's something stupid i was like i was like i wish i could i would it was really it was a complaining of a co-worker i was like i wish i could just like have them take like a cardboard cutout on the trip with a cell phone tape duct tape to the front and and that way the character can be there and andy it was the it was the greatest creative decision of my life yes it opened it that we did literally that yeah and it created all of these hilarious uh opportunities for really great bets with like him being on him he's in summer school in the in the short in the in the you know whatever the series on a phone on the phone call they like so when they be gunshots on the other end he'd like be like it's not what it sounds like and then they'd yell we're getting shot at and it was it was like so stupid but it It was because I just allowed myself to do the stupidest thing and open my brain up to just do something about it.

1:19:45And so I'm not answering your question. I'm just saying I love what you said. And here's my anecdote that goes with it. I love it. But I think what are these? I guess your question. It's a prompt. It's a great like how you threw that out. that starting with, there's just something that it, it takes you out of the pressure of the, I don't know if it's the left brain or the amygdala or whatever, just some part of your brain that's like, that doesn't allow for creativity to flow. You start, how am I going to be better than these great people? Like that instantly pushes you out of your creative state.

1:20:23And then to say, how could you be worse than them, but different, you know, like, but in a way that you'd like, but in a way that you'd like, honestly, because the thing is you, your brain, your creative like taste is not going to let, is not going to let yourself put out something knowingly bad. Like you're going to like, take that stupid thing and turn it into the good version of it. And in, and in turn make something fresh and unique and new. And I, you know, so much of that isn't sketch. like the all the monsters it was it we intentionally like we're like can we make monsters that are threatening and at the same time goofy as hell every time i saw the trailers i would be like i don't know how that makes sense until you watch it like i don't know how i like the story i assume the story is gonna be great i knew i trusted you but other than that was one thing where i was like i don't get how they look like that and they're menacing until you watch it and then it makes sense it's really cool i mean part of that was how that yeah yes some of the trailers we had didn't properly represent the way we executed it in the movie and it's hard it's hard that's why it's hard to imagine because it's different it is yeah because it's like oh you're making something that's silly but also the stakes are real yeah and it's like yeah we just worked it until it worked like that but that was that was the goal we wanted to make something that was incredibly stupid but also incredibly meaningful and real because guess what that's what life is it's incredibly stupid and the stakes are real very true yeah and it's like it's why i love the chair company right now because it's like it's like the stakes are so real on that show and it's but it's not sacrificing any of its stupidity like that you expect i love the whole time you're like are the stakes real wait the stakes are real yeah yeah no they're not emotionally they're even that's the thing that matters that the emotional stakes were real which is amazing on and basically we've just talked about tim robinson but i there's a reason i can't believe that he when i was watching all of the skits and everything i was like i don't get how this translates to longer form stuff i cannot imagine it and both with friendship and this i'm like oh i totally i'm on board i can't believe they've kind of figured out the vehicle of how i heard a story from a friend and i this isn't verified so it could be totally untrue but i heard that when tim came on to friendship the script was already there but the first thing that they did when tim came on was he was like we're gonna cut all the jokes so they like apparently went through and cut whatever was considered a joke out of the script and it's so perfect because it that's what that movie is it's like it doesn't need jokes it doesn't need mustard on it it just needs the yeah just to put a little cap on it.

1:23:14And I don't know if this is the answer, but I do think when, when I think about you in comparison to these other guys, I feel like you're unashamed about loving the blockbuster. And I think you do have something interesting to do there moving forward because you have a huge problem to solve. Like we've talked about where here's why it matters. Go ahead. Blockbuster, why blockbuster, why the blockbuster matters, but I'm sorry, I cut you off. You're the last person I want to cut off because I love everything comes out of your mouth and I hate everything that comes out of my mouth. One of the like filmmakers that is out there today, proving why the blockbuster is important as Chris Nolan, like every Chris Nolan movie comes out, I'm rolling my eyes and I'm like, God, it's so self-important.

1:24:04God, everybody's like, it's going to be so, everybody's like, Oh, it's Nolan. It's automatically going to be great. Like stop taking yourself so seriously. And then I go and I see it and I'm like, like, yeah, this is so good. And here's why is because it is this giant, massive, like universally appealing and accessible thing from a singular voice, from a singular artist voice. We are getting taken on a journey by one person, one person, one person's creative voice. And that's I'm saying one person. There is a team of people who are speaking into it, but it is a very specific voice, not made by committee.

1:24:43It is inherently an act of self-expression, but on a massive scale that we can all experience together. And there's something about that I, I miss about monoculture. Like I, I, I love that. I love the distribution has been democratized. I love that creation has been more democratized, but like the thing I miss about a monoculture is the communal experience of, of, of, of a thing made by a person. and that's why to me the blockbuster movie is so important is because like when it's good when we all feel fomo if we haven't seen it yet and we all see it we're all gushing about it like the way you and i and it doesn't have to be a giant movie like the way we're all talking about tim robinson yeah oh it feels so good it feels so good good and and it's the thing we're like god the feeling of getting to like right now my son, you know, is 18.

1:25:40So we like last year washed through, uh, uh, I think you should leave. I'd seen all of them, but I was like, yeah, you can watch these with me now. It's probably over. That's a good moment. That's a good moment. And now we're going to experience a chair company together. And it's like, and it's that feeling of like, when your kids get older and you start showing them movies you love and it's, it's like, we are sharing this together. This is not, this is, this is a thing that we're enjoying together, a connection we're having. And it's just like, God, that's why we're at the, what's why to live.

1:26:10It was one of my favorite things about Barbie was just this. Every person I talked to could talk about it and could think about it and reflect on it. And it had, it created a conversation. Whereas when I go get beers with my buddies, a lot of it is like, did you see this? Nah, I didn't see that. Did you see this? Now we got to find something we've all seen. So the worst version is someone pulls their phone out and makes them watch the like 10 minute video. I'm guilty of it. You need to watch this so we can talk. God. My thing is other people shouldn't do it, but when I do it, it's okay because I'm sure I've done it.

1:26:45I've done it. I'm not saying I haven't done it, but yeah, absolutely. And I, and, and I think those other filmmakers that was mentioned, I feel like there's a little bit of an outsidery irreverence and you have irreverence and sarcasm and all these different things too, We need it right now. But there is – yeah, for sure. But there is a – like I felt like, for example, the Thor Love and Thunder felt like a middle finger in a way. Do you know what felt like a middle finger? Did you see Superman? James Gunn's Superman? But I loved it. I don't know how you felt about it. I loved it, but it felt like a good middle finger.

1:27:21It felt like – 100 % true. Yeah. I'm not saying – I need to say a middle finger is a bad thing to make a movie and do that. You're saying Love and Thunder felt like a negative middle finger. Just in a way that to the MCU, to people that love this and look, I can respect it too. I can respect why you would want to do that and what's whatever. But what I think is interesting about or what's maybe different about you is that there just feels like you're – yeah, just what you said of like I would like everyone to enjoy this. that's a not that's kind of a and not unique perspective these days i think it's i know not only do i want everyone to enjoy this i want them to i want what they to enjoy to be something that came straight out of like the deepest part of me like i want it to be something that is personal that personally came out of me and i want them and it sounds like it's selfish but it's it's literally just like i want to make something that everyone derives joy from together and can talk about and experience together.

1:28:26And I want it to be something like in, in, in order, honestly, in order for that to happen, no matter what, anything to be good, it's gotta have, I just feel like it has to have some, somebody's personal junk in it. It's gotta have like something, somebody in there was putting something like personal into it, whether it was intentional or not, or whether it was like, you know, a massive contribution or not. It's just like, that's what makes up good art is that it comes from, it comes from people's brains and hearts and yeah. And that gets, I'll give you one last question that came from my list, which was, I was going to ask you, why did you feel like sketch was a movie that you had to make on a personal level?

1:29:09Like what, what is it about this story that you lived or you feel deeply? A couple of things. One, you know, having kids being a parent i felt like i had a lot to personally pour into it from both angles like from and that's why the movie is kind of told from it's a multi-protagonist story it's really the three main characters and two kids and the dad and the dad like there's a thing that i just felt like nobody talked about when we first had my our oldest which is like as a parent But loneliness as an individual versus loneliness when you've got someone living in your house with you that you're their only human connection some days.

1:30:01And they're looking to you to know how their world is doing. They're looking to you to like, and you feel lonely or sad. It is an even harder loneliness than like actual loneliness. And like that feeling of like keeping it together, having to keep it together, that pressure and that burden was something I felt like I could really write from. I also, I mean, the prologue from the movie was ripped straight from something that happened to my sister when she was a kid. She got in trouble for drawing a picture of her. And this is the thing that I think fits right here on this podcast was like she and it's something I'm just been so.

1:30:37Okay. Okay. she when she was uh she drew a picture of her teacher getting pelted with arrows and there was enough blood in the picture that she had to go see a counselor and she had turned out undiagnosed adhd at the time she had gotten in a negative feedback loop of like getting in trouble feeling like shit about herself getting in trouble feeling about herself and like and so this was like a breaking point this picture she went to see this counselor and the counselor said, do you really want to see this happen to your teacher? Like, do you really want her to be hurt? And she said, I did when I drew it.

1:31:13I don't now. And then the counselor said, well, I think you did the right thing. I think drawing this was a much healthier choice than actually doing it. And I was in middle school when this happened. And I remember hearing it then and being like, that's the most badass thing anyone's ever said to a kid. Like this thing that you did that made all the adults in your life sweaty and nervous and is that was actually evidence that you are a good person making healthy choices and this cool punk rock thing like this dangerous scary thing you did was actually a heroic thing like was actually a healthy thing to do it just felt so punk rock and cool and i was like that's the kind of adult i want to be in some kid's life when i grow up and then i grew up and i had kids and they started drawing pictures like that And I started freaking out and I realized, Oh, you can believe two things at once.

1:32:05You can believe like two, like the core of your soul. You can believe that art is the safest place for violence while also believing your daughter's a serial killer. And it's somehow your fault. And, and that tension felt like the most writable thing to me. I just, all the comedy of that, it felt like there wasn't anything out there that was, that was, that was like, that just felt like something I could play with like for a while. And, and I felt like a Tony Hale role, like very quickly. And, and then that connecting to like, same day I thought of that, like I thought of how like, I could make a big like Jurassic Park, you know, type size movie like, like a monster movie, but I can make it with these emotional stakes and these emotional like themes and ideas.

1:32:52I got really excited and it led straight to that point that I was talking about earlier of like the climax of the movie and that being like such a powerful thing to me. It felt like such a badass thing to like provide for the world, provide for kids to get to like here and see an experience and to like allow for adults to get to learn and how to create spaces for each other to be able to like do that. And I, and it, that's the thing that like kept me going the whole time. It was like, uh, it was all that emotional, like the, the emotional journeys of these characters and like those key milestones and the, and the themes of it all.

1:33:39And then there was a scene at the end of the movie. This actually doesn't answer your question, but I'm just going to mention it. Please do. Uh, it's, it's kind of the emotional climax of the movie. So there's like the, the external climax and kind of the internal kind of climax. And it's that scene with Tony and Q with Taylor and Jack at the pond. I called it like cry fest. That's the, that's the, and when I wrote it, I was like sitting in a coffee shop in Burbank, like a public space. And I'm, I'm just like, all right, I'm going to put on some sad ass music. I'm going to write this monologue and I'm writing it and I'm just like weeping.

1:34:18And I'm like, so proud of myself. I'm like, i'm doing it i mean yeah i am you're i am i'm gonna make people cry and then i turned the music off and i read it and i was like this isn't gonna work i am clearly like i'm getting too soft this is going and this therefore this is probably too much not a word changed it stayed exactly as it was but i experienced that same feeling every stage when we got on the day and shot it i was like i'm like we're all crying behind the camera because Tony and Q are just like turning it on every take and delivering something so sweet and meaningful. And I, we're all losing it.

1:34:59And I'm like, it's not going to work. I'm gonna have to cut the scene down and out. It's going to be too much. It's going to just be so on the nose. And then it happened in the edit or I'm crying in by myself here in my office. And I didn't change a thing from that first cut. And it's like, and it's still like, I watch it in a theater with people and I still cry because the actors are so wonderful and the music Cody did is wonderful. And it's like, I think what we're talking about here is like being vulnerable and just being vulnerable. Like the thing that kept me going were the things that made me feel not just ready, but like excited to and willing to put myself out there and be vulnerable and soft and weird and dumb and stupid.

1:35:39and I think that's when I get excited about any project is like, oh, this is a chance to go be really stupid with purpose and, and provide joy and meaning to people. I love everything you said about that. I think there's, I wasn't recording. Let's start the interview. do it again this time uh you just repeat it uh that's one of the things i get when i see when i would teach and i would see really promising students being just taking way too much influence from people and feeling like okay part of the journey i get that the thing i want you to know though, is that the fuel necessary to do the bigger projects and the things you really want to do, you won't have them until you start putting yourself in the work.

1:36:31Until you start feeling that those motivating feelings of this is moving me, this matters to me, like because of my life experience and what I care about and my own taste. Those are the things that keep you going when you, when this is an eight year project, it's so true. And the other thing I love that you mentioned all that is about that is that I talk a lot about this idea of getting high on your own supply, like taste wise, like trying to hit your own receptors. And you know, you have, if you laugh at what you've done, you cry at what you've done, you feel, you have to feel those things. You don't have that.

1:37:08You don't have your navigation. And, but one of the things that happens is when we hear interviews with artists and directors and filmmakers and everybody, is that we don't want to talk about that because it's, it feels, you can feel self-important. You can feel like, oh, why am I doing this? The best job because I write it and then other people go do it. Like I'm directing, I'm guiding, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm being the Tim Gunn in the room. Like, but I, I'm hiring designers to go and like, and I'm hiring actors. I'm hiring like a cinematographer. I'm like, I'm like, I am other artists are coming in and executing the vision and so I get to just defer everything I love about my work yeah into the work that other people have done and it makes it a lot easier so that's satisfying but you're totally right like there's a joke in parks and rec my one of my maybe my I was just getting ready to bring up amy polar for a different reason related to this but go please god let's talk about amy polar for an hour but there's a there's a great joke in parks and wreck where she was pointing out all the women she has framed in her office.

1:38:13And one of them is her. She's like, cause I inspire myself. And I'm like, F yes. Amy Poehler in the notes. Go ahead. Sorry. I've ruined your, she always should be. But that's the thing is like, I love it. Leslie Knope has a frame photo of herself on her wall because along with all the other women that inspire her because she inspires herself. And it's like, you know what? That's why my office looks like it does. It doesn't have a ton of sketch stuff, but it has stuff that's meaningful to me because it's reflected. it's reflects my favorite things about me back at me and reminds me like, like what I get excited about and what I have to like put out there.

1:38:47Yeah. Yeah. That, uh, me and my buddy, Andrew Nair talk about this line from an interview. I think it was fresh air with Amy Poehler and she said, I think she asked, she was asked, do you ever watch parks and rec? And she's like, yeah, it's like the funniest thing. Like it's, it's my taste. It's exactly what I think is funny. Now, I don't know if I could go that far, but that is the goal. The goal is, can you make yourself feel something? That's the only thing you have. You don't have any other way of knowing, is this good? A thousand percent. And it's such an one. And then once you start to learn how to do that to some level, it's not easy.

1:39:22It doesn't happen every time. But once you do that, that thing fuels me, has fueled me the rest of my journey. Like, oh, if I know, I know I can make myself feel something. I learned some craft and some stuff. Like, that's it. It's so, so satisfying. Andy, the movie, if I get to make the movie next that I want to make, it is, it is, it is everything we've talked about in this episode. It is maybe the stupidest, silliest thing I've written has some of the dumbest jokes I've ever written. Yeah. And it is also like one of the most personal and emotional. I'm so excited about it and I hope I get to make it.

1:40:00It's somehow sillier than sketch, but at the same time, it's like a little darker and weirder. And, and I remember, and we got to wrap it up, but for your sake, but I remember like five years ago, that same energy that you just had, you had for sketch. Like you told me something so kind of similar. I don't think it will be, but, but that energy is the energy of why you keep doing it. It just is like, you're like, Oh, I've got something I like. And you, and you have to put in the time to get it. I don't think it's going to be that long. Thank you for taking so much time. It's great catching up with you.

1:40:40Can we just like get to go make our dinners and come back and keep talking? We need to catch up more frequently. But this was, this was just a blast and I'm so happy for you. It's good when it's recording. It forces us to say meaningful things. That's true. That's true. I actually, you know, I mean, I'm kind of annoying like that where it's one of the reasons I love podcasting is when I go out with friends, of course I like being silly, having a good time. That's true. But there are lots of times where I'm like, can we talk about something? Anything. Let's talk about a thing. I like you yelling that out from.

1:41:16Can we talk about something? Like we're not, there's no topic. There hasn't been a topic. I want something to riff on. Yeah. So true. But thanks, man. I'm so happy for you. So deserved. And I can't wait to see the next thing. Thank you, buddy.

1:41:50I'm back with a CTA. First of all, I got to say thank you to Seth for giving me so much time and sharing so much creative juice. It was just really honestly phenomenal to catch up and just nerd out about this creative project that you've been working on for ages. And I'm just, I am inspired by you, man, if you're listening. I'm also back to do the creative call to adventure. It's called Take the Low Road, and it's inspired by something we were talking about in the chat, where instead of getting a list of your market models, your peers, your contemporaries, your heroes, maybe even, and thinking, how am I going to measure up?

1:42:36Maybe take a look at them and think, how could I go beneath them through tapping into things I want to do that they would never allow themselves to do? And this might be kind of dipping into your guilty pleasures a bit. I think it's so essential that you trust the things that you love that maybe aren't celebrated or seen for how valuable they might be, whether that's stylistically or the type of stories you want to tell or the kind of illustration you want to make. Maybe you really like types of art that are generally thought of as less than. Are there ways you could incorporate inspiration from that in ways that your heroes would not?

1:43:20Make a list of these contemporaries, three or four people. See what they have in common. And then think about what's stuff that I also like that I wouldn't put on the list of my heroes. but like maybe even as a kid, I was into this stuff or coming up when I didn't know better, I was into this stuff, whatever. You know, I'm not saying you should actually be guilty about this stuff. But just see what are things I would like to venture into that maybe they would think are beneath them. That's a different way of finding your unique edge that doesn't require you besting these heroes of yours. I've been thinking about this a lot.

1:43:58It's something that's played out in my creative journey a few times, actually. Even as I'm doing picture books, I'm often thinking about how a lot of the people that I really love making picture books right now, they make such weird things that are really challenging or risky or, I don't know, innovative. And I think I really love more traditional storytelling sometimes. I love things like Like Bluey is a great example of something that really has these like tight arcs and stuff. And it's not something that I see a lot of my heroes do, but it's something I would love to participate in. Like I love episodic TV growing up.

1:44:40I love things like Boy Meets World. And I could see myself like being a writer on something like that, just trying to break these stories. And I think that's a way that I could take the low road. I could participate in the books and picture books and tell stories that maybe aren't like, oh, you've never heard anything like this before, but make you feel something. So that's an example of it. So take the low road. Think about how could you do something that your heroes wouldn't in a way that you might not expect. When I say, what would you do that your heroes wouldn't, you instantly go to like, how could I be better?

1:45:15Well, how could you be worse and be thrilled about it? I think that's worthwhile. A weird way, a backdoor to think about a unique selling point for your creative work. Thanks, Seth. Thanks again. So happy to have you. Hopefully, your next movie, you can come back or even before that. Just let me know when you want to chat. It'd be great to catch up at any point. Let's chat. Thanks to Sophie Miller for being an editor and producer on the show. Thanks to Connor Jones for video edits, audio edits, sound design, animation. Thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music and soundtrack. Thanks to all of you for listening.

1:45:53Until we speak again, stay pepped up.

1:46:00Okay.

1:46:14The podcast is over, so I don't know why you're still listening, but I am glad that you enjoyed it enough to stick to the end. I have one more thing for you. If you're in a place where you're feeling a lack of clarity and you want to figure out your industry market and niche and find the perfect strategic side project to do next, go sign up to our newsletter at andyjpizza.substack.com and you will get a confirmation email. that will give you the download of our Creative Career Path handbooklet. And the whole process is in there. And you might also get a few bonuses in there, depending on when you sign up.

1:46:57But again, thanks for listening. Glad you enjoyed the episode. And stay pepped up, y 'all. Hello, this is Jack Wilson, the host of the History of Literature podcast. For the past 10 years, I've been talking to novelists, biographers, and scholars about the greatest books in the history of the world and the men and women who wrote them. Like our recent episodes on Dante and Love, a starter pack of 10 Indian classics, the pop culture that influenced Sylvia Plath, and a talk with scientist and novelist Alan Lightman about the wonders of nature. Join us at the History of Literature podcast wherever you get your podcasts.