554 - Get Back to Creativity that Actually Helps Your Mental Health with Gemma Correll

0:00Is your creative practice helping or hurting you? This is a weird question because I don't know about you, but for me, creativity definitely started in a place where it was about helping me cope with boring things, having fun, processing stuff like it was its purpose was very pro mental health. And then the more seriously I took my creative practice, the more that that thing kind of became imbalanced, where there are lots of times where my relationship to my creativity has all this pressure or all this identity wrapped up in it. And it can turn into something that really eats away at my mental health.

0:41And so today I'm super pumped to talk to Jimma Carell, who wrote this book, Anxiety Land, wrote and illustrated this graphic memoir. But Jimma is somebody who I think of as an artist that is deeply in touch with making art for herself. She's someone that I've known for a long time, all the way back 2007-ish maybe. We both went to art school in the UK. She's actually British. I'm American now. Now she lives in America, but I've known her for a long time and I've known that she has this personal creative practice of art journaling and really getting all of this out of her head and onto the page.

1:22And so I was thrilled to hear that she had this book coming out and that we could have a conversation about all of this and what she's learned both from doing that in her own time, then turning that into a career and then turning that into a book. If you don't know Jim McCrary, what the heck are you doing, man? She is a legend in the illustration, creative space, and also just the world. Like, hey, the quotes on the back of this book, we've got Maria Bamford, stand-up comedian, says, get Gemma's work in your life as a mood stabilizer. And another stand-up comedian I really like, Gary Goleman, says, made me feel good because it's funny, of course, but more importantly, I felt less alone from page one.

2:02Nay, from the cover, it's as valuable as months of talk therapy. have to agree this thing hit me like a ton of bricks and it's it's like a brick but it's fully illustrated so you can work right through it like um very accessible and and fun and funny and sad and poignant and powerful highly recommend you go check it out but first listen to this chat that i have with jimma we talk about making comics autobiographical work we talk about um making creative work for mental health purposes and what the power of that is and also the pitfalls to watch out for. And we talk about, we start the conversation having some nostalgia about earlier internet days and creative community and how it was in little pockets of the internet and how some of that is maybe coming back now that it's less centralized as like the main thing on the internet.

2:55We dream about visions of what that could look like. This was an absolute blast. And at the end, I'm going to come back with our creative call to adventure. Actually, Jim is going to end the conversation with it. We're going to call it back window. And it's about how do you get yourself to show up authentically and honestly, how do you actually get in touch with that? The real thoughts and voice of who you are in your head and getting it down onto the page, because that's really, really difficult, but it's so essential to get your best ideas. And Jim has a lot of great things to say about that.

3:27We'll get that at the end. So stick around for that. But for now, let's get to this chat with the great Jim Accarale, who I will say, last thing I'll say, she's done an amazing job at getting tons of awareness around mental health issues on the internet and has been doing that for a long time, way before it was cool, all around anxiety and just the struggles of that, but also done an incredible amount of awareness for pugs generally. I think she really got people to know about pugs, love pugs. She had this design that said pugs, not drugs. You might have seen that on the internet for over a decade.

4:06Just done tons of important work. And I was thrilled to catch up with her. Here's my chat with Chima Carelli. On the creative journey, it's easy to get lost, but don't worry, you'll lift off. Sometimes you just need a creative pep talk.

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6:27Everything is priced 50 to 80 % less than what you'd find at similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're getting premium materials without the markup. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'd actually use. Head to quince.com slash peptalk for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash pep talk for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash pep talk. First of all, I love this book. Had a powerful experience reading it and engaging with it. So first of all, I just want to say congrats and thank you.

7:13Thank you so much. Thank you for reading it. Yeah, I loved it. And I want to get deep into that in a minute. But first, I thought I would just want to pick a bone. Is that the phrase? Yeah. A bone to pick with you. A bone to pick, yeah. I almost had it. A bone to pick with you. And it comes from this book. It's very serious. And I just have to ask, what is the deal with mushroom and pineapple pizza? well i if i had to uh if i wasn't allowed pineapple i'd go with mushroom i love mushrooms i have mushrooms on pasta pizza everything but i just really like the sweetness of pineapple on a pizza and only really specifically on like an american pizza if i have a neapolitan style pizza i'm not going to put pineapple on there that makes sense i'm gonna have mushroom but You have some standards here.

8:10I have a certain amount of standards. But once it's like Domino's pizza, it's like, you know, I'm going full in on the mushroom and the pineapple and the garlic sauce. It's, you know, as the pizza guy, I have to be honest. These are my two never-ingroofing toppings. Oh, really? They're the two that I'm like, anything but those two. So it's not even that. Mushrooms I actually don't like, but pineapple, it's just that I'm like, it just feels like it changes what I'm eating so dramatically. away from pizza. And in fact, the pizza book that I made, we made a visual joke where the pizza actually implodes the last topping that gets added is pineapple.

8:49So that's the one that makes it all go wrong. So I had to address that. I'm sorry to get to the controversial stuff. I mean, no, I totally understand. And yeah, I, I think it's pretty gross as well, but I can't help but love it. I think it's from growing up like at birthday parties, a big treat would be pineapple and cheese on a stick. So I think it's like a whole over from that. Yeah. The cheese and pineapple combo. That totally makes sense. And that's, you know, there's a lot of vulnerability sharing in here that I really appreciated. And that one was, you know, up there for, I'm just going to own it.

9:24I am a pineapple and pizza person. So yeah, hats off for that. I think this is your third time being on the show. Is that true? You know? Second, I think. Second? Okay. Yeah. I feel like maybe we did an, I did an episode, maybe it wasn't a full episode, but we recorded something at Icon Illustration Conference years and years ago. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So I feel like there might be two separate times. The first one might've been part of a different episode or something like that, but yeah, I really appreciate you coming back and it's good to see you because we've known each other for a long time really yeah really since the early days of like flickr tumblr or those old social media sites that are still around i guess but in some form yeah do you miss anything from that era yeah i miss just actually being able to communicate with with other artists and actually see their work is a good start like now I feel like half the time I don't even see the work of people I follow on social media unless I specifically go looking for it before in back in the day it used to just be you'd log on and immediately everybody's work that they'd made in that few days you would see you could interact with everybody would be back and forth commenting, chatting.

10:55It just felt so much more like a community than it does now. And that's not the fault of any of the people. It's the fault of the algorithm. I'm glad you said that because I think to me, this is maybe my desperation for finding a silver lining, but I do feel like the post static image, Instagram and art being really, I feel like at the center of culture for a minute feels very depressing but at the same time it makes me hopeful that maybe we'll get back to art being a little bit counter-cultural and really being in communities online even that are people that care about that and want to talk about that not people that just want to critique it or it would be nice if we could find a new place yeah it would it would be really nice because um obviously videos and everything is great and it's nice to see like different types of art but I do miss just seeing straight up still images of comics and art that people have made and not people not feeling like they have to have some gimmick to get it seen very true because like my experience of like the flicker days and the tumblr days was like these are all people that are nerding out about the art like they're searching for art they're not like being fed things and waiting to be hooked they're they're being curious they're being they're engaged in the search even of finding interesting things yeah I would love to see some of that kind of come back yeah and less sort of mumification of art as well um making art just to make something, not necessarily trying to adhere to some trend that means your work's going to actually get seen.

12:47There's always going to be trends in art, but it does feel like people now feel like they have to adhere to a trend or they're just going to disappear into the other. Do you feel like that? Or do you, I mean, from my perspective, you're like an established legend in the creative world. I don't know how it feels from the inside, but yeah, I'm curious if that affects you. I mean, I'm not trying to do that. Sometimes I feel like I should and then I talk myself out of it because I don't want to do that at this point. I mean, sometimes you see trends that you like and I see things like medieval art is a big thing at the moment and I love medieval arts.

13:35Um, and I've already made comics that are sort of medieval based. Um, so, but I'm not going to then change all of my, I'm not going to just make one kind of arts. I want to still be making art from lots of different, um, influences. I see that, uh, there's a lot of like old timey jokes in all of your stuff. Like there's a lot of the old pub and all of like, And yeah, I can also like circuses and clowns. And also, I feel like these are themes that you've been doing for a long time. So I like that kind of way that you made a distinction because I could see how that happens to me. It's a positive way that trends end up impacting me when something kind of comes up in the culture and you're like, oh, that relates to something I really like.

14:24Maybe I will explore a little bit more of that without dramatically changing what I'm doing. yeah and I think as long as it's something that you genuinely like then that comes across as well and the art is not just kind of a one-dimensional like visual thing it's like no I actually like reading books about medieval the medieval period and like I know weird things about how they used to think that there were worms in your tooth enamel that would gnaw it away and there's always like a deeper level that can be found. It's a great reference too. Do you like going to like Renaissance fairs and stuff like that too?

15:06I've never been to a Renaissance fair actually. I would like to go to one and they're kind of a big thing around here where I live in California. So I think it will happen soon. I'm more of a museum nerd than a participation in history, living history nerd. reenactments and stuff like that. That's a whole other level. I think, yeah, I just don't have the patience to, uh, like dress up and make a, make that kind of effort. Can you go without dressing up? Cause I would go if I didn't have to dress up. You can, yeah, you can, you don't have to dress up. Um, I probably wouldn't. Um, but then I'd also kind of feel like I, I don't know, I'd feel bad if I didn't.

15:51Uh, I have to say like, I'm just really enjoying seeing you again and hearing from you. And I love your humor and perspective. And it also just feels nice because we haven't seen each other or talked in a long time. So I'm just saying that again. Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's the thing I was saying before about not seeing people's work. And I feel like I still see your work all the time. But because there's a constant barrage of other stuff, I feel like I don't interact with people as much. and you don't know that I'm like looking at all your posts and enjoying everything you're making um and yeah I'd really like to get back to that where we we're more interactive with each other I think if we could move on from being relevant to society uh and being more into the scene it would be great if there was a space where we could get a little bit back to that I would love that just for all the reasons that you're saying.

16:52So could you tell us a little bit about the book, like what it is and where it came from? And yeah, how would, how do you talk about it when you introduce it to people? Well, I made Anxietyland as a memoir. So that is, some people are surprised by that because they used to see my work as more short form stuff, but it is a memoir. it's over 400 pages long um it's also built around the framework of this theme park in my head that's called anxiety land um so it the the framework is kind of it starts off with this map of anxiety lands with all the different rides that i've experienced like the panic attack roller coaster and then um each section goes into the narrative memoir about my experiences with anxiety, with panic attacks, with depression and various aspects of mental health.

17:50And then also, I talk about my time in an outpatient psychiatric hospital, which is kind of the through running narrative of the whole book. For people that are watching on YouTube, I'm just going to show it. There's the Anxietyland map. So many good gags and metaphors. And it's just really powerful in that way. You know, I don't want to, I really don't want to dive too much into my own thing just because this isn't about me, but just to be, just to kind of say, thank you. I have, I'm sure tons of people since the pandemic have had some of the lower mental health points of their life. And I've had, I've talked a little bit on the show, but I'm not, not super ready to go into details because I like to kind of talk about stuff after I'm over it and maybe not over it.

18:47I would love to be over it, but I don't know if that's a possibility. Yeah. As I know, you know, but just having struggled with panic and anxiety and just these different types of loops and ruminations, I just found the book very, very cathartic. And I was also really scared of it. because I'm sure anybody that's had anxiety can relate to, if you're not in the thick of it, there can be this feeling of like, I don't even want to go there. I want to keep away from it. I don't want to think about it, which is from my experience and my therapy and all of that, I think that impulse is often what prolongs it or keeps it at its worst.

19:37And I feel like that's kind of at the heart of the book. Do you feel like that? Does that make sense? Yes. That's kind of the main thing that I learned from being in the outpatient therapy. The kind of thing that stuck with me the most and something that I wish I'd learned much, much, much earlier is that the more you try and push something away, the stronger it comes back. And that goes for anxiety. um just trying to like push everything down like any kind of emotion but particularly anxiety um it just it doesn't work the body will reject it like mentally and physically it'll come out in some way um and it's not always easy to tell when anxiety is coming back as well like sometimes for me, it will be very physical.

20:29And then that can go into, oh, am I feeling, am I feeling sick? Am I feeling anxious? I think that it's, it can be really hard to define it in yourself and you have to really learn to notice the signs. And that just comes with time as well and experience. As someone even just a little bit afraid to engage reading the book, I have to imagine that making the book was like the most, this 400 page book, this is like one of the most extreme exposure therapy devices I've ever seen. Like this is like fully spending time inviting these things into your life. Did it, did it feel like that to you? Yeah.

21:18Well, like you said earlier about your own experience, I think that being outside it by like a couple of years really helped I think that closer to the time that that everything kind of went down um would have been it would have been too difficult I was too close to it but having that little bit of distance you know I had to go back through a bunch of journals that I'd made at the time and that was that was hard but it was also pretty cathartic because I realized how far I come and how much I'd learned and going back like it goes way back into like childhood and some of that was kind of hard to relive some of the memories of being a teenager and having my first panic attacks but most of the emotion I felt the most really was just sadness for myself and my younger self and what I went through just like completely feeling alone and having no clue what was going on.

22:23I felt that too. And I didn't, this is that kind of thing where sometimes not knowing what's appropriate stops you from communicating how you feel. So I don't know if this is appropriate, but I do just feel like I was feeling, having experienced a percentage of what you've experienced. I found myself just feeling, uh, deeply compassionate for you and also all people that deal with mental health related struggles. It's such a, until it sucks for me because I sucks for me. It doesn't suck for me. It sucks because, um, and I always felt compassionate for people, but it wasn't until I experienced my own versions and what it's like to be at war with yourself in your head and how frightening that can be that I really started to just empathize in this deep way with these battles that people are going through.

23:22And then think about people that don't have any relationship to this, how easy it is for them to judge or discount. Yeah. There's a certain level which you just, you just can't understand unless you've experienced it um and i've tried i've done my very very best to describe everything um come at it from like a visual angle as well to add like a extra layer of a different kind of language but yeah there's only so much i can do um and obviously i would never wish anxiety on anybody but yeah you can only understand it really if you've experienced it but i think uh And I was at a conference for introverts and neurodivergent people called the Slowdown Summit that I got invited to recently.

24:19And one of the people doing a workshop on neurodivergence said something that I thought, which is something that I've thought before, but it was interesting. It was really profound hearing it from somebody else. And they were saying, they were talking about advocating for yourself. and they said, use analogies, find analogies. And I just thought that is what changed my life. Knowing how to tell stories. And after I've done big memoir series and stuff like that, I was so moved to do story workshops, give story workshops and share everything I've learned about it because it is one of the only ways to help people understand.

25:01And I do think your book will do a lot for people that have experienced anxiety, but maybe even more for people that don't relate to this or don't understand or have people in their lives that have experienced this. Because I do think you've done such a good job of illuminating it in a way that it really comes to life and makes sense. Thank you. Yeah, I hope so. I think the more different angles that you can come at it with to explain to people, the better the analogies, the visual, the, yeah, everybody has a different learning style. Yeah, I think that as with nearly everything in life, the more information, the better, as long as it's accurate information.

25:43yeah that's good good little disclaimer but it you did a great job and it's so accessible to so many different types of people because it's yeah it's full and it's dense with real experience and and storytelling but it's just so easy to to move through with which I think is very unique for this kind of topic

26:16I could really use your help. Now, as a rule, I try to give way, way more on this show than I take. But every once in a while, I have an ask. I think it's been about three years since my last big ask when we launched me and Sophie's book, Invisible Things. and now its companion Mysterious Things is on its way and we could really, really use your help by buying a book and spreading the word. Pre-orders can make or break a book's success. If you can launch a book with momentum, it has a chance to get into people's hands and we really, really wanna get this book into kids' hands because it was written to ignite kids' curiosity, to get them curious about our mysterious universe and I don't know about you, but I am hoping this next generation is curious, open, full of wonder, and engaged and excited about living life on this planet.

27:07If you pre-order from our local bookshop, Birdie Books, you can get a copy that is signed by me and Sophie. There's also a bunch of links to everywhere else. You can get the book at invisiblethings.co. And by the way, I'm doing some talks to virtual groups, schools, companies, and conferences in exchange for what's called a pre-order book buy, aka buying copies for your group or the attendees. So if you've ever wanted to book me to speak, this is the least expensive it'll ever be. Write to me at hi at andyjpizza.com and I can walk you through how that works. If you love my art, this is one of my favorite collections of paintings that I've ever made.

27:46If you loved invisible things, you're gonna love mysterious things. And if you have children, nieces, nephews, students, or friends with kids in your life, ignite their curiosity with mysterious things, pre-order at invisiblethings.co or click the link in the show notes. Thank you so much for your help. We really, really, really appreciate it. It's time to refresh your yard during spring backyard days at the Home Depot. Get low prices guaranteed on propane grills starting at$179, like the Next Grill 3-Burner Gas Grill. Or get$50 off a select Weber Spirit Grill and bring big flavor to your backyard.

28:23Then set the scene with Hampton Bay string lights that bring it all together. Shop spring backyard days for seven days at the Home Depot. Now through May 6th. Exclusion supplies to home depot.com slash price match for details. One thing I want to ask about, because I know for me, making art about personal things, struggles, all of this in so many ways has helped me, but I also know it's not that black and white. Like, could you speak a little bit to how putting yourself into this work, working through your stuff in the work that you do, because you've done that for a long time, even before this book, maybe how it's helped, but also how it's been made things more complicated at times.

29:04yeah yeah I've always kind of naturally just um drawn my personal um thoughts and feelings um from when I was a kid um and it was only really when I got to high school that I was um started like drawing like little comics and sketchbooks and then uh I got to college and that was the first time anyone saw these drawings so it was all very initially very insular I didn't share any of this with anybody. And then I got to college and my professors saw the work in my sketchbooks and not necessarily looking at it from a mental health angle, just seeing that this was the way that my brain worked and kind of said, this is what you need to explore.

29:51I was doing like a little bit of writing at the same time. And I was still kind of feeling like I was in a little box of what illustrations should be. So I was still trying to like make paintings and like do proper art and then doing my sketchbook stuff in the on the side and that's when my professor said um explore this a little bit more um and that's also around the time that I started to share the work um on social media online and because I'd always done it it was pretty um cathartic for me to make the work and then I didn't know how it would be received by other people But because in the friendly days of the old Internet, it was received well, a lot of people found it relatable, that really bolstered me.

30:42I think that sharing work is a lot more fraught now. and there are times when it's been somewhat difficult for me to share the work making the work is always cathartic for me it's the way that I've always naturally dealt with things I don't find it difficult to make the work but I find it difficult to share the work now because I'm so conscious that it's so personal and I would never want to speak for anybody else's experience because I don't know everybody is so different I can only talk about what's happened to me and I think that sometimes I'm too conscious of that and I might shy away from talking about certain things and with this book I was I just thought no I have to put everything out on the table and there's no point holding anything back I'm gonna tell the truth about everything that happened and also as someone who has anxiety and at times have been uh really cut off from people it must just be such and a strange experience to go through periods of time where some of your very personal stuff has become so extremely visible online.

32:09Yeah. Has your relationship improved with that over time? Yeah. It's strange because it's so abstract for me. Yeah. Sharing stuff online just feels a bit like throwing it into the void. And, you know, there's numbers on my Instagram account of my followers, but that's still so abstract. It's not until I go to like an event or something and I meet people that I realize that that it is actually real. And I mean, that's just life on the Internet in general, I think, because everything can seem a little detached. Like we're not quite relating to each other on the same level anymore, which is a shame.