559 - Make Before Thinking, Sales Mode, Get Weird with It, The Opposite of Depression and MORE with Austin Kleon

29:53You know, I will go, the thing that I realized a while back, there's a lady named Beth Pickens who I really like her stuff. Have you talked to her tomorrow actually? Oh, tell her I said hi and tell her she came up. Um, I love her stuff. She's actually helped me a lot. And one of the things that Beth said that I think all the time about is that artists and creative people are people who suffer if they're not working. Like if they're not making stuff. I love that definition of an artist. Yeah. Because for years I had heard, I had heard people say, well, only become an artist if you can't do anything else.

30:32Right. And I had thought in the back of my mind, well, I could have done anything else. I could have been a doctor. I could have been a lawyer. I could have been an astronaut. Well, like whatever, like I'm a smart guy. Like I've met these, like I've met people out in the world. I could do this. But what I didn't think about is what happens to me if I'm not making things. Right. And this like blew my mind. I mean, like I owe Beth forever just for this single idea and work. And Beth knows that because she's not an artist herself. And that's why I think it's so cool is that she works with artists.

31:03And so the thing for me, you want to talk about inner and outer world is I suddenly realized that the reason that I draw and the reason that I write and the reason that I make stuff is that I literally don't know what's going on inside of me unless I'm doing that stuff. I think people have this idea and it can be true, that creative work is about taking what's inside of you, figuring out what that is and how you can get it on the page. Yeah, right, yeah. Right? True, yeah. But what I've learned, and I learned this from Linda Barry mostly, is that the hand pulls out of the brain as much as the brain uses the hand.

31:49And so when I am writing, I am discovering. I am discovering what it is that's inside of me. What did I actually think? What's actually going on in my brain? When I'm drawing, it's like, here are the images that are inside. When I'm taking a walk and saying, what is the universe serving to us today? What it really is, is like, well, you're thinking about abandoned music. Why aren't you on stage? Why aren't you in your band? Like you went to see Granddaddy. Why aren't you on stage with your band? Maybe that's why you're rehearsing tomorrow. You know, that kind of thing. So it's like pulling those things out.

32:25And so for me, it's a matter of almost like emotional survival in a sense. The only way that I know what's going on in me is to do the stuff. And if I don't do the stuff, I don't know what's going on. Yeah. And I like how you talk. I like how you talk about this in the book around not making art and make stuff. I'm a big fan of making stuff. Yes. Yeah. Yes. I'm totally into that. I just really like what it got. I wanted this book to be like just to have the most dead simple. Usually on the back of the books, I have some we have some sort of tagline that kind of summarizes the book. Like still like an artist.

33:03It's something very generic, like unleash your creativity or something like that. But this book, I was like, I want this to be the dumbest, simplest. Nike, just do it kind of thing. And like just make stuff was. And so that just like really – I just wanted this to be dead simple because it seemed so simple when I was around the kids. I knew it wasn't simple. I worked in advertising when I was a digital marketer or whatever it was that I did, copywriter. I had a creative director who just said to me this thing that like really helped me and it's so simple. He said, just make something immediately.

33:40He's like, whatever you're working on, he's like, just make something immediately. If it's a sketch, if it's a prototype, whatever, like just make something. So, you know, he's I used to mock up websites and PowerPoint or like keynote or something and just show it to him. Oh, yeah, you'll do this. You'll click this. And just because it was like the minute we have something totally, then we can mess with it and like, you know, manipulate it and say, no, that sucks. Throw it out. So it's like that was some of the best advice that I ever got is like the minute you make something. And you mentioned Annie Murphy Paul's book.

34:14People aren't going to be able to see this and listen to the podcast, but I'm holding up this thing called a Volvel. I got really into Volvel. You might know it as a spinner, but it's got multiple levels. And when I was reading Annie Paul's book, I actually made myself a spinner that has the different levels that Annie Murphy Paul talks about. But that's one of the things I would recommend. That's the extended mind. That's the extended mind, that book. And one of the things I learned from doing that with other people's books is trying to summarize people's books. Particularly trying to get a visual representation of other people's books, I find helps me with my own stuff.

35:01So when I was working on this book, I made my own spinner. And on this spinner, it's got one level that says time, space, and materials. and then the next level says head heart and hands and then the next level says past present and future and i would spin these things around and sort of wonder like i would line up like okay what time hands in the past like what does that mean what would that do this didn't end up in the book at all right none of this crap like like you know but but having this object like this thing that i made meant that i could like fidget and play and think about the ideas in the book and like i didn't even get the head heart hands thing in this book but just having that as the background that's what i'm trying to say is like i guess the thing for me with books and all creative projects is it's like the thing that you see is really it really is just the tip of the iceberg yeah there's just like this huge foundation especially with my books because what i'm trying to do is i'm trying to take like all this stuff and just like make a ramones album out of it yeah yeah basically yeah i'm I'm trying to make like a punk record.

36:05I have like the complete Tusk recording sessions or something. You know, like I have like the whole, I have the bitches brew sessions or something. And I'm like in my head. And then I'm trying to like make a Ramones album. I respect that. I kind of wish that more people approach books that way, honestly. Well, it's just what I like. And I'm just trying to make books. I'm just trying to make books I like, you know, I don't like the, i know that i'd be richer maybe if i did i mean like the 300 page one idea book like everybody knows these and they do fine but like i don't like that i like the 150 page 30 idea book like and maybe it's the ad hd brain maybe it's the like whatever it is but i want things coming at me fast and furious and i want them dense because that's the thing i try to do in the books and I try to like make them real dense, but fast so that people read them real quick.

37:04But then they're like, huh, maybe I'll go back to that part and give it a little more time. You know what I mean? Like, man, I want to read and listen to that song. You know, I think I'm giving away the fact that I really wanted to be a musician when I was a kid. The idea that - This is an album, okay? It's not even a book. Well, and if you look at the back of my books, they have a track list. Under the shape of an album too, they're relatively the same size. So it's like, yeah, it looks like a CD, right? So it's like there's a reason. Everything, talk about inner and outer world, like knowing yourself.

37:34That's funny.

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39:05You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. I'm always trying to up my game creatively. Recently, it's been comedy writing for my books and talks, and there's only really one place I know of where the literal best in the biz share all their tips and tricks, and it's Masterclass. The class with writer, director, producer Judd Apatow is especially great. I've been listening to it on audio mode while driving and doing chores. One thing that he said that I instantly started to apply was prioritizing FaceTime with the people working in creative roles that you wish you had.

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40:19Masterclass keeps adding new classes, so there's never been a better time to get in. right now as a listener of this show, you get at least 15 % off the annual membership at masterclass.com slash pep talk. That's 15 % off masterclass.com slash pep talk. Head to masterclass.com slash pep talk to see the latest offer. I have two different things. So I'll do a couple of rapid fire around some actions that you can do to kind of unlock this space. And then I have started doing an ADHD round, which is where there's no through line. It's just a grab bag of a few things that I wanted to ask you. I love it, great.

40:56The first thing is, maybe you could talk about scheduling play time. There's a book called Just Play by a guy named Stuart Brown. And I think he has a TED Talk, like you could watch, but he's a play researcher. And there's a line in that book that really blew my mind. He said, you know, the opposite of a play is at work. The opposite of play is depression. That one hit me. To be playful is to be alive to the world. and kids are alive to the world. They're just like, they haven't got sick of the world yet. They haven't gotten like, it's all new. It's all interesting to them. And I think like a lot of us, you know, we hit depression when like we can't, like we just can't see the world in that way.

41:35It's just like not alive to us. When I've been depressed, I love that line in the book because I was like, man, that nails it. Like when I'm depressed, I can't remember why you play. I can't remember what play is. Nothing I can think of sounds like play. Yeah. So my friend and I talk a lot. We bike a lot and we don't, we're not cyclists. We just ride bikes. Like we ride slow and long and just like, we just take these like two hour rambles around Austin. And we talk all the time about like, God, it's really hard to be depressed on a bicycle. It's just so hard. Like we can't even, you know, cause we'll start out and it's like, I mean, we'll start out, we'll be bitching at each other.

42:19like what's going on we're both old dads you know this and that and like by the end of the ride it's like you don't even remember what we were bitching about at the end you're just like so gleeful to be alive and in some ways you're a lot you're gleeful because you didn't die on the bike ride i mean like biking around austin it's like we didn't get hit by a truck we're alive you know like every but But yeah, like the point is, is that Stuart Brown talks about how a lot of us have a play deficit. We are people who desperately need play. And the people who need play the most are the people who think they don't need it.

42:55And so if you don't have playtime built into your life, you need to schedule it. And if you have to, if your inner taskmaster asks you, well, what's the ROI on this? or like you could be working or whatever, you need to think of it as R &D time, research and development time. I swear to you in here, in this studio on a Sunday afternoon, I will go, I'll be like, you know, the kids are on their screens and Megan's like working in the garden. You know, I think I'll just pop out to the studio and listen to geese like, I'm just like, whatever. Those are always the days where I make like 20 things, you know like i always get in here and make like a hundred things and have the most productive day because i'm like i'm just gonna go in there and fart around like it's all good you know playtime it's gonna be playtime you know so like if you feel dead if you feel like you just need to schedule some playtime and the other thing i would say to people is it might not be being in the studio like something that beth talks a lot you know we mentioned beth pickens like one of the things I hope Beth talks about in your conversation is how important Sabbaths are to take a day off, to do a day where you don't work on anything.

44:11Those are, that's a great time to like schedule your playtime. So I, I, I truly believe that jamming with my bad dad band and riding my bicycle are just as creatively fruitful to me than, than reading a book even, you know? Yeah, I think, so I've been thinking about this a lot. One of the privileges of my current scenario, but also curses is that I have monetized almost everything I love to do. And I feel very grateful for that. When I think about playtime, I end up thinking like, I don't know what that would look like. What do you have any like hacks for figuring out how to fill that time in a way that you're like, okay, I've got 30 minutes, I've got two hours, whatever it is, I'm going to schedule it in there.

44:58how do I think about what it would look like to mess around and have fun? I think it needs to look completely different than what you normally do. Yeah, that's a good point. That's good. You know, like what would Charlie Bucket do after he got the chocolate factory? You know, I was thinking the end of like Charlie and the chocolate factory, you know, Willy Wonka, don't forget Charlie, what happened to me? And he always got whatever he always wanted. And Charlie goes, what's that, Willy Wonka? And I wanted him to look at him and say, he had to run a chocolate factory. Have fun. like imagine how sick of chocolate charlie is now right like what does charlie do on his day off if he gets a day off you know that's the thing so for me it's also like what's the opposite of what i normally do you know and so like for me that's like that's printmaking i'd love uh block printing just carve a little stupid speedball thing that you got at the art store you know roll it and just make a hundred prints.

45:59That to me is like so different than the normal, like verbal work that I do. So like the other thing is I'm not very good at it yet. I don't really know what I'm doing. And that's a really good thing. Like become a beginner at something, right? Like what's something you've always wanted to learn. And the trick on that is once you know how to do it, you're going to monetize it, right? You know, like figure out, but that was the great thing about biking is I didn't bike as a kid. Um, and so learning to ride a bike for me at like 40 was like a really great experience. And I was like, talk about the fervor of a convert, you know, I was just like, this is the secret to life, you know?

46:36And now I'm more like, it's good, you know, but like, that's the thing is like hobbies, you know, little side projects, the stuff that looks like farting around the magic of all this stuff is that it'll end up talking to your real work if you you know like every time i'm in like in band practice i've been thinking a lot about sheet music and tablature and using because when we play the guy the guys i play with the guitar players are really like a really close friend of mine but he has this brain where he really wants to print the tablature off and and and like really pay attention to the tabs and how things go.

47:23And the thing I'm always reminding him is I'm like, this is just someone on the internet that made this, dude. This is not necessarily what's on the record. And something I've learned as a musician is even this official sheet music is not necessarily right. And so I'm always pushing him to move away and away from the music. But the point is that I realized that I've gotten to a point creatively where I'm trying to get away from the perfect thing that like the idea of being in a cover band for me is that we figure out what our limitations are and what, how our limitations will lead us to this new thing.

48:02Like we cover maps by yeah, yeah, yes. And we're dudes. And so like, I have to figure out how to sing like Karen O, which is impossible. So we like figured out, I was like, well you know she's like what if we and you know you're just like and like you know there's no bass in like that song what you know and just like that that so what i'm i guess all this rambling what i'm trying to say is that i can't help if you're a creative person you're not going to be able to help uh things talking to each other they're just going to talk to each other definitely i mean like that's the space that creatives live in is just that this is similar to that how's that connect to that yeah yeah and they're really good work is when there's two plates and they're rubbing that's when you get an earthquake right yeah so there's two plates and they start rubbing together i mean you know this is someone who uses pictures and words and the work that's the magic that's where the juice is when picture words meet it's like this really magic thing i completely agree it touches on another thing i wanted to ask you about which i think this is really uh brilliant like kind of the learning of tutorial versus deconstruction.

49:14Like there's something totally different there. Could you speak to that a little bit? Well, I mean, as a musician, it's that thing where you can go on YouTube right now and some stranger will teach you exactly how to play the riff on Led Zeppelin 1 or Led Zeppelin 2, Heartbreaker. Like here's how to play it. And that can be really valuable and fruitful. but if you have to figure it out for yourself, you're going to stumble around. And one of the things that might happen if you're a person that wants to make your own music, is that trying to learn that riff with just your ear, you're going to hit the wrong notes and you're going to find something new.

49:59This is something that little Steven talks about with Springsteen is he's like, Like the thing about Springsteen is like he can't keep the real chords in his head. So when we cover stuff, he like freaks out. He like does the wrong chords. But then he like comes up with this new thing, you know. And that's like copying, you know. Like when you try to copy someone else's art by hand or something. It's like the ways that you mess it up. You like, you know, you get to your own thing. And I think this is like, I mean, I've been dancing around this so much, but like, this is why AI, you know, finally this came up in this conversation because everyone's been asking me about it.

50:41It's like AI is for people who know what they want. Right. Yeah. And, and I don't know what I want when I'm starting to work. Yeah. I'm going to find it. Yeah. And the, and the joy and the beauty of creative work is to discover what you didn't know you were looking for. Definitely. and i this is something i obviously have thought about i try to make i try not to i try to talk about it like every eighth episode because otherwise it's just going to take over the whole damn thing and you know it's just not really into it or really into it people who aren't and like it's just this kind of like war thing but like i do try to articulate how at the very moment i'm just not that into it because i'm like dude this is not what i this is not why i set out to do this related to what i like yeah and i one thing that's kind of annoyed me i thought about doing a, I've done a bunch of episodes on taste over the years and it's something I've thought a tremendous amount about.

51:37And it's kind of annoyed me that the tech world, tech bros have kind of adopted this taste thing in a way that I never would have seen coming. And the thing that's annoying to me about it is in my way of thinking about it, way of using it in your process, I've said the same thing you say in the book, which is it's about listening to your body and you can only do that as you work through the process you have to taste it as you're going make the movements yeah and if you're on like a wacom or something in your you know that feedback you have exactly so you can't you taste you know you have to be able to cook to have the taste influence it you know what i mean like that's a huge part of it yeah and so yeah that's kind of annoyed me all right let's go on because i can keep going for a long time i can talk to you for hours.

52:26It's, it's, it's absolutely a blast. It's, it's just really fun. I was going to start them, uh, conversation. This, this goes in the ADHD round with saying, you know, whenever I talk to you or Hanif Abdurraqib, I always feel like little brother energy. And I'm like, I don't know what that is. It's a weird thing to say to somebody, but I looked it up and you guys are both born the same year as my older brother. And so I'm like, okay, maybe that's a little bit of it. Um, but I feel like I'm getting, I'm like, have you heard the wallflowers? And you're like, you're going to love Bob Dylan. You're just this, you should check this guy out.

53:00I love, so as someone who I grew up 40 minutes away from Hanif, we were born the same year. Yeah. And, but we couldn't be more different, you know, it's so interesting. And his love for Ohio is something that I just love getting. Cause I just, I just don't have it. You know, someone who's from there and like all my friends are there and like my family is all there. And like I just I like for whatever reason, I think it's there's this great Patton Oswalt skit where he talks about Sterling, Virginia. And like I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there and blah, blah, blah. And he does this whole thing about Sterling, Virginia.

53:39And then his next special, he comes out and he's like, it was me. I'm the one that's broken. It wasn't everyone else. It was me. I'm the one that was broken. But that's how I feel like with Ohio, I'm like, I'm the one that's broken. It's not Ohio's fault. It's also Ohio too. I live here and I'll still say, you know, we got, we got some problems. But okay, I'm going to get to the ADHD round. A consistent amount of this is music related. I will try to be snappy. I will try not to digress. The ADHD round, I mean, we don't have a ton of time, but the ADHD round's not so much a lightning round as it is just a grab bag.

54:15Okay. I saw this really great clip of, um, it's subway takes and it was Ross dam who used to be in vampire weekend was on it. Yeah. And he said something that I thought Kareem, like maybe didn't know what to do with it or needed more time to process it. Um, but I just thought, Oh, there's something really brilliant here. And he, Ross said, you know, be songwriting isn't something that you progress on in a linear way. Like you might write your best song when you're 16, you might write your second best one when you're 42. I have thoughts about that, but I'm curious what you make of that. Oh yeah.

54:52That's just the concept of time. Do you believe in time as a straight line? Do you believe in progress? Do you believe in linearity or do you believe that like I do, that time's a spiral? Yeah. Right. Nothing in nature is linear. Like nothing grows, like everything is cyclical. Yeah. Earth goes around the sun. It's all about rotations and seasons and cycles and spinning and all that. And yes, I absolutely, I also think it's the most hopeful way to think about stuff because it, there's still the chance that you can make your best work. You have to have that as you go on, even though the most beautiful thing, the most bravest thing I ever, one of the things that Elizabeth Gilbert said that I thought, God, I love hearing that from someone on stage.

55:38She looked at the audience and she said, it is very possible that my best work is behind me. But I'm in my 40s. And like, I got to keep going as though it's not, you know? And so, yeah, for me, the cyclical thing, once I got out of linear, that was keep going for me. That was that book. That book was me figuring out that time is cyclical instead of linear. Because before then, I'd been like, oh, you do something small every day and the days add up. Right. And then I realized like, no, actually it's more like compound interest in a sense is that the days are worth more as you go. And it's more like a flowering.

56:18It's more like a prickly pear cactus where, you know, and just like stuff like that. Also being married to a gardener has helped me a lot because I get all the metaphors without any of the work. Same. I'm exactly the same. She labors out there. Every once in a while, she'll have a huge project where she needs a huge amount of land, like turned over. And then I get roped in. But that. Then you get roped in. Yeah. Yeah. I'm good at moving rocks and dirt. Like call me when you need wheelbarrow work. Same. Yeah. I'm the same. I kind of thought of that as like being creative, like getting into a creative spirit into a zone is less like a destination you get to and more like a mythical creature that you're looking for.

56:58Sometimes you grab, you hold on to it as long as possible. And then it's gone again. But I think he's on to something. But Kareem, for some reason, wasn't, he didn't quite like grasp it or something. I think, but I just thought it was really a good truth, really. Do you have subway takes? Do you keep your subway take for when Kareem calls? I've been thinking about it. What is yours? Do you want to say that? Yeah, sure. Or are you going to say that? A lot of America's problems have to come down to the bathroom. Okay. People, they sit on toilets. They're too tall and too big and they don't have bidets.

57:33Yeah, true. Everyone's going around. They can't have a great – they eat crap first of all. They can't have a good poop and then they're walking around with buttholes that they've rubbed raw with toilet paper. Yeah. That's what's the problem with America. That's my subway tape. I completely agree. Call me Kareem. I would love to be on. Yeah, please, please put them on. The world needs to know this. America needs to get their shit together. That's right. Get your shit together, America. This is my second one. It's sort of like, what is the balance of these things? So reading your book, I was thinking about, I had this gut reaction to, we all have this gut reaction when one of our favorite bands gets signed to a major label.

58:15But then I saw Alex G got signed to a major label and he's starting to starting a family. And I read in an interview that he's like getting serious about music before the next album. And I was like, no, don't get serious. I had that feeling. But then to just the other side of that, I thought this was also true. And I'm curious what your take is here. I heard James Acaster talk. I don't really I've never really listened to Foo Fighters, so I can't comment on this directly. He said that he's like, he's like Dave Grohl said that after the second album, they were just like, we're just going to have fun.

58:53And James Agaster was like, and that was the last good album they made. And so I thought like, it's some kind of weird push and pull of this thing that is, and I'm just curious, like how, how those two, they seem different, but I don't think they're at odds with each other. I don't know. It's the parent and the child, you know, it's like, it's like when the kids just, when the kids is too free and running around, they're going to get hurt. They're going to do stupid stuff. They're going to break stuff, whatever. But if there's too much parent, none of that play stuff is going to go. And I, I do think like with the book, like I'm trying to like, if you have this problem where you would like to be more fun and playful in your work, I think this book will help you, but it's not the whole story.

59:35Right. Yeah. Right. I always think about how much of the stuff I love is because someone needed money. I think money is really interesting actually. It is. I agree. Mason Curry's new book, I really admire that Mason – it's a big topic and he took it on. What's the book? I don't know the book. It's called Making Art and Making a Living. Oh, yeah. I saw that. He started out, he was going to tell the history of artists and money and that was just a little too much for him to chew. And so instead the book is kind of like these stories of like different kinds of stories of where money came from. But one of the things I think is really interesting about money is like what happens to someone when they get like a MacArthur.

1:00:17Or like – or like – or like, you know, like basically like there's a little bit like needing to make money can actually be a good catalyst to stuff that you didn't get before. Like one of my favorite examples is like The Godfather. like Mario Puzo like needed money desperately he was like in like he was in debt and all this stuff and like everyone had told him you got to write these stories about the mob he's like I don't want to do that that's my title like whatever and then he does the godfather and like changes the culture you know so like that's one of my favorite stories but it's also like interesting I always feel like if you have a favorite comedian who hasn't been on the road in a while you should wish for them to get divorced.

1:01:03Yeah. Because people who get divorced need money and then they go back on the road. Right. Yeah. Yeah. They get really industrious. You know, like my agent hates me because I mean, you know, I've been married to the same person for almost 20 years and I, I have a good, I have a low interest rate on my mortgage and I don't have any debt and I keep my burn rate low. I'm like a nightmare client. That's right. So when I had kids, you know, so like you can always tell which writers have kids going to college. Like, you know, like some of these mid career artists, you're like, Oh, they have kids going to school.

1:01:41I see that. I see you, you know, like the rushed book, the book. You're like, why they, it seems a little, you know, they're kids. I had to pay that bar tuition or whatever. Yeah. Cal Poly, whatever. Okay. Uh, here's a question I've wanted to ask you. Um, so I know you're like me, we're both embracing, embrace guilty pleasures. Don't, you know, don't like the idea of that, but you have really good taste. And I'm curious, is there something that most people consider bad that you love? Oh, oh yeah. Like, is my taste too good? Like, do I need some trash here? See, this is the thing that I'm always like, I'm like, what's the more trashy stuff?

1:02:25Um, well, I mean, there's stuff that I don't think actually has any redeeming value. Like I spent a whole year watching below deck. Like, I don't think people, it's a, it's a show about people who work on super yachts and people rent these yachts and they're like, what happens to them? And I was just like, I went through a period of like, just really, really liking below deck. That's pretty good. i i like genuinely love phil collins like i genuinely love like genesis i've been trying to like really go back to my roots and embrace that um i aspire to like trash but i'm also like a huge snob like i'm someone who like has read tolstoy you know what i mean so it's like it's hard for me like i love like but even something like nancy now everyone loves nancy there are books about how Nancy is like art, like the comic strip, you know?

1:03:24And so like, even that kind of trash is like, I do need like more trash in my life. I'm trying to think, I like love Jack Black, but everyone loves Jack Black. Like I love Nacho Libra. Like that's like, that's a good, that's a good answer. I came to Nacho Libra late in life and it spoke to me deeply. And like, I don't even know if I'm supposed to like, like I have a, I have a Latino friend in Austin. He's like, I don't even know if I'm supposed to like Nacho Libra. So like, don't worry about it. That was made in a weird pocket where it was like, okay, they got away with that in a way. Whatever Jack Black gets paid for, by the way, like in his movies, it's completely worth it.

1:04:01Like the work he's doing in these movies, like I, I actually, like, I actually really like the Minecraft movie now. I've like come along to it. The kids loved it. And, uh, and then, um, the Jumanji movies. How old are your kids? i've got a 17 14 and a 11 oh yeah so the jumanji movies would be great for the have you watched the rock jumanji movies oh they're so good we watched all the ones really like that i bet my 11 year old will dig it she like jack black of course yeah you gotta watch the jumanji like the next level yeah yeah the ones with the where jumanji is a video game yeah they love that okay like my kids deeply love jumanji and i do too so you need to watch that yeah i need more trash.

1:04:44I love Top Gun. I think Top Gun is trash, but I love it. I love Top Gun. Those are good answers. I just watched Top Gun with my kids and I was like, look. When Papa was like, he watched this way too young. This is military propaganda. This is like a recruitment ad, but you got to watch this. And they were like, yeah, it's pretty cool. So yeah. That's great. Those are good. Good answers. Arnold Schwarzenegger movies. I love like like Predator, Terminator. Commando is like one of my favorite movies. He's so entertaining. Commando is genuinely one of my favorite movies. I've watched Commando like, my friends and I in college would watch Commando like, you know, every other week.

1:05:27We used to book the theater in our dorm because our dorm had a theater for whatever reason and to have Commando showings. And then we'd have people read fake academic papers about Commando. That's a great prompt. So that's the kind of nerds I was best friends with. I like it. I can see the connection. I feel like this could be in your next book for sure. My last question is, what is, do you have a or some favorite part of this new book that you haven't talked about? Oh yeah. I love, my favorite part of the book is the author page because I sometimes, so I really, this book was really just an excuse for me to get kids drawings in one of my books.

1:06:09I really just wanted like one of my books that was like illustrated by the kids basically. So the author page is my favorite because it's all pictures of me that the kids have drawn next to my actual picture. And the narcissist in me loves it. But also the drawings are really strange. And this is like kind of a fun thing to end on. I never understood why Jules used to draw my beard so big. because I don't have that big of a beard, you know, but he would draw this big beard on me. And I was just like, why does he draw this? Like, this is so weird. And then I realized finally that if you're three feet tall and you're looking at a guy with a beard, you see the under part of their beard.

1:06:58So the beard looks gigantic. Just like an infinite abyss. And a weird like, you know, like Tintin character or something. So like this is what we're trying to – So that's the other thing that I would say is that if you pay attention, again, for the parent, the problem with having children, I think, is that they show you all the parts of yourself that you didn't want to see. True. They show you all the good parts, but they also show you the parts that you don't want to see. And so it's a creative act. But they can show you things. And I think that's the takeaway I want for people who are listening to this.

1:07:38If you've gotten this far and you hate kids and you don't want kids, which I don't blame you at all. Live your child-free life. It's awesome. But I would make a plug for being the cool uncle or the cool auntie. Grab some kids. Spend some time with them. Because I think they can show you the world in a way that you've lost or you never had to begin with. and then you can hand them right back to their parents. I'm having that over and over. I had that cliche thought. You know, when you have a thought, it's a genuine thought and you're like, oh, that's something everybody says. I had this like a week ago.

1:08:12I was like, man, really enjoying watching these movies with my son. It's like seeing the world through their eyes. And I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what it is. That's exactly what happens. But you can borrow, there are lots of children that would, there were lots of parents that would love the day off. borrow them take them to the museum if they hate the museum take them for ice cream yeah that's great that's great well this is awesome i could have talked to you for hours and hours uh it's great to see you dude yeah you too where's the best place for people to look for your book oh call the crib same number same hood uh austincleon.com uh is my website and i'll have links to my books and the thing that i think most people even if you don't like my books.

1:08:56There are people who really like my weekly newsletter, which is just a list of 10 things that I share every Friday. And it's as varied and multifaceted as I think this conversation was. Yeah. And you've got great taste and you're always introducing me to stuff. So great way to land the plane. Well, thank you, sir. Yeah. Great seeing you, man. Yeah. Great to see you.

1:09:33I'm back with the CTA. You didn't really need me to do that. Austin gave us tons of actionable things you can do, but I'm just going to put a little icing on the cake. It's called Don't Tell and Show. And this was kind of a through line through our conversation. We started talking about what do you do when you actually have to go present your project, your art to the world. and he talked about pt barnum and kind of getting into that showman place which i think we can have an allergy to as creative people but it can be such an essential part and he actually talks about in the book the idea of putting on a mask so that you can tell the truth uh he talks about mf doom and other artists that have like taken on characters to say things they couldn't say as themselves and i think there's just something to this like the showmanship of launching your project.

1:10:22Don't be afraid to tell after you've shown the work. But then we later talked about, or we touched on something that made me think, yeah, like what you don't want to do. Oh, he was talking about show, show your pitch, show your thing, make, show the, he was talking about it through the lens of make a presentation. Don't get talking about it, thinking about it. Just get showing about it. Like start making, drawing, make the presentation, make the slideshow, make the proposal at least make the demo make the maquette make the the dummy book like get making don't tell anybody about it if you have nothing to show i think that's so essential i think it kind of matches with what i've heard about the brain science of you know when you tell people too many people about your goal your brain's like you already did that like because you got all the dopamine of them being like yeah nice one what you want is to save that if you really want to tell people about it, then use that energy to show them to make something instead so that you don't have to tell them.

1:11:25You can show it to them. And then, yeah, then you can talk about it. But that's my challenge to you. If you have something that you are just so pumped about, so excited about, a new project that you desperately want to tell everybody about, resist that urge and instead sublimate and channel that energy into action. And then once you have something to show for it then you can start talking about it i think that's just a really useful shift that i need myself massive thanks to austin cleon for coming on the show hopefully he comes back again soon i just really had a great time talking with him and it's one of those scenarios where when we turned off the mics we ended up talking a bunch more about all kinds of stuff that was also really juicy that i'd love to have him come back and talk about um in the future thanks don't forget go check out his book it's full of great stuff it is called don't call it art and there's just so much good stuff if you're looking for how to silence or quiet that editor until you need them to come back in the room and um and have fun again remember what you like about this again um so thanks austin massive thanks to sophie miller for being an editor and producer on the show thanks to connor jones of pending beautiful for audio edits video edits sound design and animation thanks to yoni wolf in the band y for our theme music and soundtrack and until we speak again stay pepped up

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