Mark Rober and Cleo Abram Tell All at Adobe Max | Creator Upload feat. Mike Polner of Adobe

0:01Welcome to Creator Upload, your Creator Economy podcast. I'm Lauren Schnipper. And I'm Joshua Cohen. Lauren, we're uncomfortably close to one another. I am uncomfortably close to you. Everybody knows that we do this mostly remotely. And by mostly, I mean all the time, except when we don't. And then it's weird. And Josh just, you know, he stares. I'm looking at my camera. Yeah, you know, you know me. I, he looks, he's just like he, and then he looks longer at me and then it's just all, everybody's uncomfortable. Josh, why are we together right now? We're the Adobe Max, baby. We are at Adobe Max in Los Angeles, California.

0:31And Adobe Max effectively is Adobe's like big, you know, couple day long event announcing all of their new latest and greatest products. Google's got I.O. Apple has the Worldwide Developers Conference. Adobe has Adobe Max. No, it's been really, really cool. So we got here yesterday morning. We sat, there was three hours of keynotes, as I like to say, keynotes be keynoting. And that's what the kids say, right? Anyway. Anyway, no, but they like honestly, mind-blowing technology what's going on. It's just obviously a lot of AI incorporation. The thing that I thought was really, really cool is, you know, it seems like Adobe is positioning itself continually like as a tool.

1:12So they're doing all of these integrations into other products. The thing that I was most excited about is they are integrating into ChatGPT. So you can like, you know, as we've all done, like make an image in ChatGPT. you will soon be able to then be like, add your like Adobe product to make that image within ChatGPT and other, you know, various tools that you will be able to kind of integrate with. So that I thought was like one of my favorite things. Josh, tell the kids what your most favorite thing was. Well, per what you just said about Adobe integrating into other platforms and other platforms integrating into Adobe, they have this relationship now with YouTube Shorts where you can create for YouTube Shorts inside Premiere Mobile, which is Adobe's editing app for your phone.

1:51iOS now, Android in the near future. And what you can do is one, create, edit, use AI to enhance the audio quality or the video quality or come up with your own video images or backgrounds or whatever you need in Premiere, but also in terms of its relationship with YouTube Shorts, you can also analyze trends within Premiere. And when you're on YouTube Shorts, you can also choose an option now or will in the near future to edit that short and remix it in Premiere. So it's this two-way functionality where it's pulling stuff from YouTube Shorts into Premiere and then pushing stuff from Premiere out into YouTube Shorts that I think is going to make for a really compelling editing experience and really enhance just the overall flow of short form creators.

2:36Yes. And we're going to get into much more product detail. We actually have later on the podcast, Mike Polner, who's the VP of product marketing and GM of creators at Adobe. So he's going to get into all this and more. There's another really nerdy feature that Josh was very excited about, but we'll talk about that in the interview. And we also have Cleo Abram, who is amazing. Also, we have a very, very exciting guest that will be coming later on the podcast. Mark Rober is going to be joining us. And he is going to talk about how he is using these products. And so we're very, very excited about that.

3:06Stoked for that. My also just favorite part of the keynotes that lasted for three hours, which were great, by the way. It felt like 20 minutes-ish. 30. But really, it was a really interesting experience to be there in this auditorium at LA Live, where the Emmys are. and to hear the audible gasps and applauses from the audience oh my god there's some there's some there's some nerdy not even creators creatives product tech people here we are in it right now and so when you have a feature that incrementally enhances their workflow yes and by incrementally enhancing their workflow dramatically incrementally enhances their quality of life and you hear some cheers from the audience it's it's it's an experience very exciting um okay so very excited.

3:56We just want to talk about a couple other things that are happening around right now. Most specifically, YouTube has finally sort of like debuted these sort of new makeover for the TV experience. So Josh, can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. So YouTube at Made On 2024, Made On is their mini version of Adobe Max. Yeah. I was going to say that's similar to this, but yeah, just for YouTube. Yeah. Just for YouTube and announces a lot of their product features. In 2024, they were said they we're going to enhance the YouTube experience on televisions. So basically make it more Netflix style because they want to capture more of the audience's attention on televisions.

4:36YouTube has been increasing for the past two years its percent ownership of television consumption. It peaked at 13.6 % a couple months ago, has actually gone down a little bit recently for the first time in the last two years in terms of its uh quantity of television consumption it has it's now at 12.6 this is according to nielsen's gauge reports just quick sidebar diving into those numbers i think it really speaks to the back to school audience youtube peaked in june and then was down july august sure which i think makes sense yeah also these are huge months for linear television with NBA playoffs, with the start of the NFL season.

5:20So you could see regular linear television consumption increasing dramatically over this time frame. YouTube, I think just its share of that space decreasing, but I'm guessing overall YouTube viewership on televisions didn't decrease. Maybe it did. Maybe it didn't. But in any case, I think we should see a pop up again in the future. But so one of YouTube's most important screens is the television. I would argue the most important. Go on. And they want to enhance the experience there. So they've rolled out a couple new features. And one is just enhanced thumbnail imagery. They're increasing the thumbnail size from 2 megabytes to 50 megabytes.

5:57That's a jump. It's a huge jump. What do kids call a jump? And that's so that YouTube can, on huge television screens, have really compelling high-quality thumbnails. Of course. They are also going to use AI to enhance previous thumbnails. Creators can opt out of that if they want to, to maintain their own lo-fi experience. And then there, in continuing its Netflix style makeover, there's a homepage feature that arranges each user's favorite YouTube channels on a scrollable shelf. So similar if you go to Netflix and you see like what you might like or your favorite shows, it's the channels that you've interacted with the most and that YouTube thinks you will like the most presented to you in more of a Netflix style format where you can scroll through.

6:41You can search through individual channel listings now too, where in the past, if you searched on the YouTube app on televisions, it would just give you results from all across YouTube. And now it's gonna give you results more targeted towards your favorite channels too. Yeah, I mean, like, so it's television is what we're - So it's television. So we're talking about television. Yeah, we're talking about television. Okay, great. That's exciting. Yeah, no, I think these are really, this is cool to finally see this rolled out. They've been talking about this for a while. So I'm excited. Totally.

7:07And they're also enhancing more of their shoppable QR codes. on televisions, trying to incorporate that television viewing experience to the commercial product developments that are happening on the rest of YouTube. In terms of shoppable products and automatic tagging of products in videos and more, I expect we'll see that experience on television to roll out a lot more and YouTube kind of connecting the phone in your hand and the content that's being displayed on screen. I think we're going to just see more and more connections of those in the future. Next up, we have the one, the only Mark Rober.

7:43You know him, you love him. 71 million subscribers across YouTube, something like 14 billion views. He collaborates with the biggest creators in the world like Mr. Beast. He is saving the world. He is educating the world. I'm very excited to have him on. Mark Rober, welcome to Creator Upload. We are thrilled to have you here. Great to be here. Just saw your keynote on the stage at Adobe Max was so awesome. I saw a cloud when I was little. My dad used to get two air conditioning units and we tried to he would say we'll make one really hot and one really cold. And we tried to make rain in my house.

8:13So we never did. But you made rain on the stage, basically. That's right. Boiling hot water mixed with liquid nitrogen. Yes, very quickly makes an indoor cloud. It does. And it was so cool. So I was like, it's true. It's true. It's awesome. Well, you know, we're here. We're talking about all the tools. And, you know, obviously, AI is on everybody's sort of like brain right now. So we'd love to hear from you how you're thinking about as a creator, how you're thinking about using or not using these tools. Everybody's talking about how it's going to enhance creativity, right? That's not going to take away.

8:44So like, for better or worse, how are you thinking about this? And how do you, within your creator circle, sort of like, how are you guys talking about it? I think it will definitely enhance creativity. I mean, my first, that's YouTube stance, right? Is like, it's just a tool. And at first I was kind of like, well this is lame you can't that's like cheating right right but then i'm like wait i'm no different than like the film studio executive when youtube came around and being like well they don't have film degrees like how dare they make content right like who am i to gatekeep because now i'm the incumbent and i have a lot to lose potentially right uh by someone who can now come in and sort of be really disruptive and so i've kind of like had a change of heart i just had to like take a deep breath and be like okay uh what does this mean i think there's an element like i'm not really actively using it very much um i think it's not my place to like come out and do groundbreaking stuff with us in the same way like google actually had chat gpt right they have their own version of this in fact they invented it but they because they were google i think it was there it's kind of an irresponsible place for them to come out they would have got a lot of pushback if it was giving inaccurate results but chat cbt being released first actually was i've talked to sundar about this a good thing for them because it sort of inoculated society being like oh okay we'll take this with a grain of salt and then they could make gemini and now gemini is like just as good or better and so i think it's the same place for myself or like a mr beast where it's like i i'm just gonna still make videos the old-fashioned way but like if there's an appetite and the public is like, it seems like it's a positive thing because there is some risk, right?

10:28With like jobs and there's a lot of emotion around that. But if we kind of, if everyone agrees like, no, this is a tool and it's a really good thing, then we'll probably lean into it in some way. I think one advantage it has of it's like just scaling what I do, right? Well, that's what I was going to say. You sort of famously make, what, about 10 videos a year. I think on stage you said they get about 20 million views each. So in an ideal world, you know, if you could have tools that made videos, more videos to the quality that your expectations are met, would that be an ideal situation? Yeah, 100%.

11:02I think that's right. Or just like scale me on camera, right? Doing more. Sometimes we'll do temp tracks with my voice, you know, to like when we're laying out a video, I'll write it and then I'll – and sometimes I don't even catch that it's not me. Really? Yeah. Really? And then they're like, wait, you need to re-record that. I was like, wait, which part? I was like, oh, dang. It's crazy how fast the voice sort of, I guess, simulation, I don't know what you say, has improved. I mean, I was looking at, I was working in corporate development and looking at companies doing that not two, three years ago.

11:32And it sounded like robots. And now, I mean, it's just so fast. That's blowing up. Yeah, even when you talk to the LLMs and you're like using the loud spoken thing, it's like insane. The ums and the pauses and the intonation is insane, right? So crazy. And I promise I'll let Josh talk, but I'm just so many questions for you. So I guess I would love to just, you know, in general, just speak to you. We talk a lot about creators and creator businesses here. And just like, you know, I'd love to get a little bit of a glimpse into the extent you're comfortable, like the infrastructure that you've built up around you.

12:00Because I think a lot of people talk about creators in terms of they're entrepreneurs. And that's not all of them are. It's really hard to build infrastructure. You know, obviously Beast has done it. Obviously Mythical has done it. So I'd love to understand that journey for you a little bit in terms of your. Yeah. My big thing was it like, it was actually, um, I was doing like a live stream with Jimmy Kimmel. My son is autism. We did like a big live stream just after COVID and we were at his house that night and Kimmel's like, you need to make a product. And I was like, do I like people tell me all the time, like you need to make a podcast and you need to go on tour and you write a book.

12:37And like when you double click on all those and like pull that thread, eventually it's so you can make more money right it's like oh good news i have i don't spend a lot of money so i have enough money yeah i'm just gonna keep making my videos thanks you know i don't want more stress in my life but jimmy's like well you could really you could reach you could reach you could teach back like deeper right if you're in the trenches putting something together and building something that's more than just passively watching a video and i'm like damn it that's like the first time i've actually heard like a response that's like you know what i think you're right so then i went home and i kind of built a model with a buddy of mine like what could this look like if we did like monthly subscription boxes our kids build a really fun toy that teaches them engineering and like the math math like if we could get a certain amount and and then it like launched and like but so but before a lot you had you had to find a partner yeah yeah we had to find yeah so it's like click on it for a second sorry sorry yeah Yeah.

13:34So the guy who built the model, Jim, is now my COO and it's the same model we use. So there is a thing about, you know, I think for like a small company, I think there's a book called Rocket Fuel that talks about this. It's really good. But you need a visionary and you need someone who can execute. Yes. Right? And like, I know how to build trains. I suck at running them. Yep. Jim sucks at building trains, but he's really good at running them. Yep. And like that combination where we each have our own swim lane and both people are very competent in their own way, I think is just any company you see small business that really does well, it's that combination.

14:11And I think over and over and over, they interviewed a bunch of people in this book and that was their huge conclusion. Yeah. But not a lot of people, I think a lot of creators have a difficult time separating those two things because of course the nature of being creators, you're doing everything yourself. So I think it's hard. So it's, it's, um, yeah. But when it comes to like finding the right fulfillment center, it's like boring. I don't want to do that but like jim went out and interviewed and found the best one right and creating the model and how we're gonna have taxes in every state and even if jim's not doing it he knows the person to hire to have that done right yeah yeah yeah so i think that was kind of critical now we have like 100 employees wow um is that just on the toy between the crunch labs between the the company the toy company and the youtube channel that's great yeah and the idea is we just run the YouTube channel to kind of break even.

14:57So in general, we spend, I don't know, I think it's about 12 to$15 million a year. And then on just the YouTube channel. Yeah. We just try and make no money from that, but use that as a thing to advertise for Crunch Labs toy company. Wow. And then so any other revenue, other profits and stuff come from that. And so pre Crunch Labs, how big was your team? How many subscribers? No. How big was the team around you? probably like six people wow wow wow so crunch lat's really allowed to like scale yeah because like a lot of my time now is divided right i'm like also running the business but also making the videos i still write all the videos um so in fact right after this i just have to like i told my team like i need to hunker down for three solid days nobody can bother me because we have to write this video.

15:49We went to Alcatraz and rebuilt all the things they did. Wow. Re-engineered the rafts and we escaped just like they did. No way. Spoiler alert. The raft didn't survive. So me and Cleo and Johnny Harris are all the escapees and we're swimming in the Alcatraz Bay for like two hours at midnight. Wow. And it's a banger video. It's got all this footage, but I haven't read it yet. and we have to lock it like in seven days. So I should have this process figured out better, but I don't. And so what I'm hearing is too, is that all these different endeavors come from the fact of you really wanting to get science and engineering out into the hands of the masses.

16:30You talked about this on stage about you're hiding the vegetables. And so Crunch Labs is like another way of hiding the vegetables kind of. Yeah. And we're actually working on something too. I have said it publicly, but not really that much. I haven't like officially announced this until i'm doing now seeing a ted talk in april but you guys want the scoop yes yeah tell us if you're driving in your car listen really carefully you're about to get some juicy information we're doing uh like a full science curriculum like third to eighth grade wow uh it comes with videos like ronaldo i just filmed with him he's gonna be in it mr b's like cameos from all of their favorite creators but then like hiding the vegetables teaching the actual principle so like electricity and magnetism unit we just filmed i'm standing in front of mri machine with like a 10 pound hammer and i put a watermelon inside the mri machine and then we flip it on and like by the power of thor this hammer just rips out of my hand it just like demolishes the watermelon and i and now that i have your attention i could teach you about electric invisible electric fields that's so cool wow so it's like you have my attention right now yeah it's like i can't teach you if i don't have your attention so we're using all the tricks we learned on YouTube and then we're making this curriculum full curriculum for the teachers it's going to cost us about 55 million dollars to make and then we're going to make it free forever for all that's incredible yeah that's so wait wait wait sorry you're making it and then you're going to just you're going to get it out totally free totally free completely forever we're in the process I have young children I want it to be ready for that we will be we'll be done in like three years oh wow that's like part of as we're making YouTube videos doing all this stuff like Like we're on the third one out of 40 units.

18:12And so it's kind of the pilot. And then when we launch it, it'll be like this grassroots movement of like, I'll just tell the kids in my video, if you're watching any other video in your science class, it's mutiny, you know? Cause like these poor teachers are like, they actually pay money for content. That's just like, it's not good. Yeah. And they're paying their own money. Like they don't have that much money. So it's like, yeah, we're just going to put it out there. that one I'm I think that's the most important thing I'll do my whole life wow that's incredible so really like true to this mission yeah a hundred percent like that's it like I you know again I don't spend that much money I was I feel like I was lucky to know that like I never had to buy the Ferrari to realize like that doesn't make you happy yeah like I Jimmy's all at Mr.

19:00Beast is the same way like he lives in a really cruddy house he doesn't care about about anything material, he's just like, but for me, so it's like I have enough money, I guess. But I would just, sitting on a porch, like retired reading a book every day would drive me crazy. So having a mission, something we believe in, and I really do believe in this, and working towards that just brings a lot of fulfillment. That's really empowering, that's really cool there. That's amazing. And so is the thing that keeps you from doing more, it's just like you're the block, right? It's just your time. yeah yeah and so with these tools if you can see yourself getting more time you can do a lot more so that's why eventually you got around to it being appealing 100 i think there's value in that for sure especially like scaling me on screen or even my voice you know like the writing i feel like isn't there yet although sometimes i was gonna say there's gotta be people on your team Like if I get stuck and I'm like, I'll go to the LLM to be like, explain the Kowanda effect to an eighth grader like Mark Rober.

20:06And it's like, hey, radical kids, like the Kowanda effect. I'm like, okay, first of all, relax, AI. Like I'm not that bad. But then it's like I read the rest and I'm like, damn it, that's pretty good. Yeah. Copy, paste, you know. No, it's because I'm sure I have to imagine I have worked with big YouTubers. People on your team are like, can we just hire a writer? They say that to me all the time. I mean, they must. And I'm like, great, show me the writer. And whenever they do, I'm like, this is terrible. Like, this isn't good, right? I am getting more, like, just creative help. I mean, that's something I should have done a lot earlier is have, like, out of those hundred people, like, very few are actually helping with creative stuff, right?

20:51And that's probably a mistake that I should have, like, really embraced. like once you find one then you're like oh this feels really good this is really helpful yeah and you want then it's like i should have built that muscle up stronger yeah but you're spending i imagine and correct me wrong do you feel like you spend most of your time doing the things that you want to do within the realms of your business for the most part but that's still there's only 40 hours in the week you know well well there's actually there's more that's true is that right someone do we'll talk we'll do math later we do a fact check on that yeah out yeah i think the mayans figured that out a while ago yeah it's fine like that is it yeah let me we have just a couple more minutes with you um team trees team seas ridiculous it's gotta be i mean you is this now going to be like an industry every couple years every year i've got to imagine there's more i mean i don't know 40 million dollars which is what team water was yeah was really hard to do did you find it was much more difficult yeah it was a lot more difficult um we had to jimmy and i know more billionaires now so like for some of the big donations we had to be like hey come on do your part a lot of people are watching you know uh-huh oh wow um but you know it's for a good cause and it's just one of those i talked about this with my talk but it's like the internet i feel like sometimes especially now you're losing those moments where like everyone gets together pushes in the same direction for something really cool yeah yeah yeah um yeah so it's always really yeah that's so we in a month we raised it was like 41 million dollars to give 2 million people clean drinking water for decades that was cool and a lot of the i guess the mean donation was like five dollars i know you saw that so that's like plus like a billionaire check every now and yeah well uh median donation i guess so it's like i think i think intense peer pressure from prominent public figures on billionaires every couple years we did we went on the today show and called out like ken griffin yeah it's like with all respect to him i what i didn't know who it was and and i know now nice guy he from that today show appearance he ended up donating like two million dollars or something so i love it well mark we also called you out josh but oh for the two billion million yeah what the fuck we're still waiting it's coming you have the check okay don't cash it okay we have the check but don't Yeah, just not yet.

23:07He'll text you when it's ready. Mark Rober, this was fucking awesome. Thank you so much for coming. We're so excited to continue watching you and come back anytime. Sounds good. Thanks, everyone. Yeah, thank you so much. Cool. Thank you so much, Mark. We got some scoop there. Just some scoops. Mark's great. Just some like mage scoop there. I don't want, I'm just saying. Got like ASMR scoop too. Totally ASMR scoops. I mean, is there any, is there a better scoop? No, it's fantastic. From Mark Rober, incredible. beyond that's great that's great he's awesome amazing we're gonna get to our interview with Cleo Abram now Cleo Abram welcome to creator upload podcast we're so excited that you're here of course people know who you are but just for those that might not you were at Vox for a long time and now you have you're the creative mind behind a huge what huge if true correct um and you are exploring science and technology um and we're just so excited to talk to you not just about Adobe Max but you in general so thank you again for being here thanks for having me I'm so excited to be here.

24:04This is my first Adobe Max. Love it. Love it. Josh, you want to kick it off? Yeah. So before we get into some of the announcements and talking about your workflows and how you operate as an independent creator, I'm super interested in knowing more about your trajectory and kind of your thoughts on the ecosystem now in relation to where you came from. So you were at Vox for five years. That's right. And I'm wondering, like, what could Vox have done to kept you. You're not an isolated instance here. There's lots of your colleagues that have left Vox before that. There were lots of people at the publisher BuzzFeed that left BuzzFeed way before that.

24:41There was My Damn Channel, had Daily Grace, and then Grace Helbig started her own channel. So there's this history of these platforms incubating really great talent and then not being able to hold on to that talent anymore. And so like, is that just kind of a natural evolution of this ecosystem? Is there anything that publishers, whether they're established now or publishers of the future, can do the better work with creators like yourself? Well, I think my story, both from my personal perspective and from the content that I'm making now on Huge If True, I think my story is a microcosm of the larger trends that we're seeing play out in this whole ecosystem, right?

25:21In journalism, in Hollywood, on YouTube. and my story is I was making explainer videos at Vox both on YouTube and on Netflix as part of a show called Explained and these are very technical detailed explainer videos they're very highly animated because we're here at Adobe Max I'll say they're animated with After Effects and edited in Premiere and they're they're incredibly you look at the file and it's just many many colors many Many, many, many cuts, right? These are very, very detailed, highly produced stories. I learned a lot from doing that. And then at a certain point, it became clear to me for two reasons.

26:03One, for editorial freedom and also because of the specific show that I wanted to make in Huge that I needed to, as I say, go independent and make my own thing. And so that was taking all of that creative expertise and the technical skills that I'd learned from Vox and applying it to something brand new, which is huge if true. And the brand new thing, and this gets to your question about why leave, what could media companies do to keep individuals, the thing that I really wanted to make was something that I couldn't find for myself at any media company. I looked. And that thing was a place where I could more deeply understand what was happening in science and technology specifically from the perspective of who's trying to make the world much, much better.

26:52I feel so lucky to be alive today because of all the things that we benefit from in medicine, in transportation, in the tools that make our day-to-day lives easier. And while we face incredibly difficult problems today, there are thousands, millions of brilliant people working on those problems all the time. And I wanted to know what those stories were. I wanted to know what the huge, if true, future of the things that they were building is. so like many things that turn out well like build it for yourself that's what i wanted to do i think in the end that has to be done with a huge amount of creative freedom and i think a media company is set up to do that in some ways and not in others and i don't know if it's to their benefit to change some of those ways like would it really have been a good idea for them to give me like carte blanche to make whatever this idea was that I wanted to make in exactly the way that I wanted to make it.

27:51Like, it turned out great. I'm so, so proud. But I needed the time to mess around. And I needed not necessarily to be speaking with a voice that was the whole, I needed to speak with my own voice. And so I went independent, I took the tools, I on the last on my last day of Vox, I was editing in Premiere and making something that went on Vox's YouTube channel. On my next day, I was taking my After Effects and my Premiere files and building something new and making it on my own channel. There is an element of, especially now when anyone can use the tools, it's becoming so much easier. I think the barrier to doing something yourself is also getting lower.

28:31And so maybe my story is actually becoming much, much more common because of the ease of the tools and because of the opportunity to share those creations that you make with these tools with millions and millions of people. And so is the future, just if we extend this out, is the future where if there are media companies of the future, there's just way more of them and with less individuals that offer these individuals a lot more creative freedom? I hope they offer a lot more creative freedom. My expectation is not that they need to be smaller. Yeah. I think huge will be huge. But I think that that will be true because of a very well-defined creative vision.

29:12And I think that the opportunity to use great tools to make exactly what you want to make and publish them to anyone who wants to see them and have the opportunity to earn a big, big audience is something that's getting more and more possible for more and more people. and I think what you'll see is more weird flowers blooming. And I don't think they'll be small. I think they will be like, my analogy is breaking here, but like really big trees, bigger perhaps than any media company that we've seen so far. It doesn't, it's not about smallness. It's about distinctness and opportunity to make something that is not, that is different than what has been gatekept before.

29:55Yeah. But do you feel like, I mean, I would imagine, you kind of said it, Like you obviously benefited from like, I would imagine you'd consider maybe the Vox days like your schooling, right, to learn how to do this and then like being able to like go out into the world. So like, you know, sort of piggybacking on what you're talking about, like I couldn't would you imagine like doing that for other folks and then like sending them on their way? Like is that like going back to the trajectory of it all? Is that kind of like how you can imagine things? I think it's really, really important to learn from great peers.

30:20And so you're right that I absolutely got that at Vox. I think there are ways to get that out in the wild, as they say. um now i'm now learning from all of my peers on youtube all the time and if i go back to how i learned how to edit and animate i was first taking night classes then i was taking on individual projects and i was watching adobe how-to videos on youtube i love it to learn how to use these tools yeah and then making my videos 10 better and then 10 better and then 10 better and then 10 better finding people that would work with me that are even more talented at using those tools than I am and everybody together making this group project that is now huge if true.