SoCom Founder Max Benator Explains Why We Should Care about Social Commerce | Creator Upload

0:01Welcome to Creator Upload, your Creator Economy podcast. I'm Lauren Schnipper. And I'm a very well-lit Joshua Cohen. Lauren. You've never... This sort of soft, dramatic lighting is really... Candlelight, it almost seems like, is really, really your thing. I really highly suggest we do this moving forward. I just have 75 candles around my computer. That's how we do lighting here at Creator Upload. That's our dedication to the craft. We want to give you a natural campfire experience. Yes. Sorry. We are recording later than we do ever. And so Josh and Lauren in the evening, no bueno. Like, no bueno.

0:41Like, literally, like, I've been yelling at Josh. We've started very late because of him. I've been yelling a lot. And now I have, like, the punch drunk maybe giggles for a minute. And I don't know what's happening. It's no bueno until it gets very bueno. Before we get to what I was doing today, coming up, we have an interview with Max Benader, who's the CEO and co-founder of Orca and also the founder of SOCOM, the social commerce conference. So we're going to talk about that soon. Lauren, you were on the world today. Tell us. I was. Josh, have you heard of Trillith Studios? Are you familiar? I'm going to pretend like you haven't been telling me about it for the last 72 hours.

1:15OK, fine, because this is what you do to me. Because would you have known it 72 hours ago? No, I would not have. Okay, so Trillis Studios is outside of Atlanta, Georgia, and it is where it is. It is like it's almost like the Truman Show. It's this giant compound of like an housing and a huge tons of restaurants and massive, massive sound stages. It is where they've shot a few little, I don't know, Marvel movies, for example. Oh, I totally know about that. I just know what it was called. But Trillis Studios. Yes. Go on. Yes. And they are now about to shoot all the DC comic, like Superman. Apparently, James Gunn lives there.

1:51There's expensive housing there. Anyway, your girl was invited to speak at a conference today called sort of the State of the Industry because there's a ton of industry happening in Atlanta. And I was on a panel, you guessed it, about the creator economy. And it was a really, I mean, it was fascinating. fascinating it's it feels like I can't imagine what Los Angeles was when there was a ton of filming going on in Los Angeles because I never was there when like the quote-unquote traditional industry was like like up and running and really you know awesome like you know my early years in LA you know kind of were around when the first writer's strike happened which it feels like like LA has been on a decline even from before that in terms of production like it just doesn't really happen in Los Angeles that much um and so anyway so this was a room filled with sort of above and below the line folks.

2:37I met Jeremy Gerlich, who is the CEO and founder of American High, which is this fascinating guy. He's a, you know, sort of had a big, biggish career and in sort of traditional movie making. He wrote the movie The Breakup. He worked with Todd Phillips on a bunch of things, including The Hangover, like had a real career and then decided to acquire an abandoned high school actually in Syracuse, New York. And he has shot upwards of like 22 films there. and last this earlier this year he shot a movie at Trillith with Owen Wilson and they are now opening sort of an offshoot of American High in in at Trillith and they're doing they're expanding they also have a very big digital presence now they started a YouTube channel it's about four million subs right now which has become a really meaningful part of their business really fascinating people that have sort of transplanted from like places like New York and obviously Los Angeles that are in Atlanta sort of working and it was it was very cool I was on the panel with the co-founder of American High and a sort of poet who is a creator.

3:39And also, there was a guy named Jonas Barnes on my panel, who's the founder of Pixie Microdramas. And he was just talking about like just the massive, you know, kind of margins in microdramas, which is just like, I think microdramas is one of those things that is like kind of, you know, coming out of nowhere in some ways in this country. Like it's obviously doing really well in other countries, you know and he actually we didn't get into it but at one point i was like oh so it's just quibi and he was like it is not quibi at all and i was like no it's quibi it's the same content as quibi it's just different monetization model and you guys are basically using the micro dramas to tease the content and then pull people to like sort of paywalls and he was like yeah i mean it's the same kind of content as quibi but it's like no i'm like okay um so it's like fun though i like pushing that because everybody knows like panels are so boring so like if you can get into like a little thing where people disagree i think it's really fun lauren it does feel like micro dramas are having a little bit of a moment there was a study recently in variety in september that found that micro dramas emerge as a multi-billion dollar global phenomenon the china market is set to eclipse local box office numbers so revenue skyrocketed from 500 million dollars in 2021 to seven billion dollars in 2024 in china for these short-form dramas and to be clear what we mean by micro dramas is because what they are it's like it's full-length kind of films but they can be they do them in such a way where like the scenes are like whatever under two minutes or something like that so they can be like easily shared those two minutes and like every two minutes is like a cliffhanger effectively so they're using the way this guy's doing it is that he's using kind of regular social to like lure people to like paid um sort of paid uh websites and they're building an app and all the things um and they're doing like the model is like pay 50 cents to see this and then you keep paying your 50 cents or 50 cent or whatever and then all of a sudden you've spent $25 on a movie.

5:24You know what I mean? And you don't even realize it because you're buying like coins. And so it's like, doesn't really feel like money. It's gamifying it and stuff. It's pretty genius. There was another woman there who I won't say. Pretty genius or just predatory. Both. There's another woman who was there who is, she's working on, she's out of Los Angeles. She's, I don't want to kind of say who she is because she was kind of talking shit in a way where she was like, she's like, but like, do we need that? Like the content is so terrible. Like, do we need it? And I was, and she's like, why can't they make the content better and i was like because they don't need to yeah because they they don't need to and she just was like so upset you know what i mean like when i said that to her she's like but like then you're just putting this like effectively like crap out in the world and i was just like but it's working like i get it you know what i mean it was like she was like really obsessed she was also there so it was it was a really cool day though no one ever went broke by underestimating the taste of the american public in any case fox has also taken an interest in this.

6:18That was quite a statement. Go on. H.L. Mencken, baby. We're journalists over here, at least better than us. Yeah, totally. Fox Entertainment also took an equity stake in AI microdramas company, Holy Water. That was in October, 2025. So some big name studios are getting involved in this. And Lauren, have you ever read the James Patterson novel? I don't know if I've actually ever read one, but I know who James Patterson is. I read one. One was going around during our study abroad program. It is not great writing, but they are so fun to read oh sure and the chapters are like three pages long the best and so you're just like reading it and you're like oh i can get through another one i can get through another one that's like da vinci code remember davinci code it was amazing it was like three page chapters and you like couldn't stop oh and so this e micro dramas are the moving picture version of those i don't know what you call them drugstore novels yeah maybe maybe that's yeah sure so microdramas are the moving picture version of those drugstore novels yeah no i think that's i think that's fair i think it's fair and i think that it's um you know listen it's hard like you know what i mean like because digital content can do really well like forgetting the scripts forgetting like what you think about the acting and stuff like you don't really have to do there's major huge youtube channels that don't have good sound and don't have good lighting and it's just in it kills and I think for people who really love the art form of like filmmaking it's really tough but I think there's still also a place for that I met these two guys that like god love them they're like former product manager tech guys or whatever and they they were they came they they've moved to Atlanta and they are like trying to start an indie film company and they're like yeah do you have any advice and I was like good luck it's just like you know I was like you know and they don't really have a I mean it was just it was it was sweet you know what I mean?

8:07Like maybe they're going to do really well. And like, I love it. I love independent film. I love great storytelling, but it is very, very difficult to make money if you don't have some sort of hook, if you don't have like a really unique distribution plan or something like that. And it's and I think you can make really good films and do really I think you could make really high quality micro dramas probably, but like the economics have to make sense. So it's an interesting time. But Trillith was it was an experience to be there. I mean, it felt in a lot of ways the way of going to a back lot in you know um on a soundstage obviously in in la but like the difference here is that like you live there like literally somebody's like oh yeah james gunn lives right there like you know what i mean it's a very like in their building i mean it's just exploding they're like there's so much construction going on it's been around for a while um this one woman had moved from la like i don't know four or five years ago and she was like yeah when i came here there was just this one restaurant and she's and now it's just like it's exploded i mean i was like it looked like a fake town it was truman show but like these places were real and good for them for picking up the dc universe too because marvel moved to europe correct so the marvel contract ended apparently in 2024 and i was talking to people like are they freaking out they're like well they just got dc so they're like super pretty good yeah so um yeah because and then there was somebody talking about the georgia tax credits and like you know it was that was complicated and interesting but i was just like oh god it's a lot uh talking about auditing and all the things but um it was a really uh and they did like a pitch i mean it was a day it was a day an entertainment industry day yeah all the people that had got to be like bowing down to james gunn really saved yeah dc universe and now give them a whole second life i think but i also do think as it relates to creators there's a big opportunity for creators who especially are building big infrastructure businesses to move to states like georgia who have much favor much more favorable first of all cost of living and also tax you know incentives versus like, you know, building up studios space in Los Angeles where it's just cost prohibitive.

10:04Like you can pay somebody in Atlanta to do the same job as L.A., probably a lot less. And you could actually buy a home and like raise a family. And like those are not things to be taken lightly. It's, you know, it's very difficult to do that in L.A., especially now. It's just the cost of living is insane. So it's really cool to see to see this today. So that's what I did. Joshua, enough of me for once. Let's talk about you. You had a big day yesterday too. Can you tell the kids what happened yesterday? So we announced, although it's been like the best slash worst kept secret among a select group of people in the know.

10:38We've talked about it like a lot. But we've officially come out with our YouTube sponsorship intelligence platform, Gospel Stats. You can check it out at gospelstats.com. And along with it, we put together this report called the YouTube 2025 Sponsorship Landscape Report. It's our inaugural report. It's the first of many. And it basically looks at the sponsorships on YouTube in the first half of 2025 and compares that to the first half of 2024. Looks at year over year trends, growth, which creators are getting the bag, which brands are most active and more. And I really don't think anyone outside of me before we released this report had a full understanding or as in-depth of understanding of what's going on in the sponsorship landscape on YouTube.

11:27And let's define our terms here first. When we say sponsored videos, we don't mean true view ads. We don't mean mid-roll. We don't mean anything that you buy through like the Google platform, at least as of now. We mean direct sponsorships, deals made with the creators where the creators are shouting out in some way, shape or form, whether that's a verbal shout out, a title card, end card, lower third, big flashing neon sign in the background, something that indicates clearly that this video is brought to you by this brand. 99 times out of 100, not those exactly metrics, but just saying it's mostly creators saying somewhere in the video, yo, thanks to this brand for sponsoring this video.

12:02Go check them out. Those are the kinds of integrations that we discover at Gospel Stats by sifting through tens of millions of channels, processing, I think, literally billions of videos. Are you looking for, I mean, I feel like, I don't even know if hashtags are a thing anymore, but are you looking for hashtag sponsored, hashtag, you know, whatever? Is that how you're sort of... Well, first of all, those hashtags aren't that prevalent on YouTube. That's not how people generally disclose their sponsorships on the platform. And two, if they do, it's just a very small percentage. So we miss a lot.

12:29I fortunately have a very high pain tolerance and it took a lot of banging my head against the wall in order to figure out how to find all of these sponsored videos on YouTube, translate that into code, deploy it at mass, and then solve for like a million different edge cases. So I'm super stoked about this. It's been a long time in the making. I'm so glad to have it finally out in the world. Lauren, the response, I'm usually reserved. I'm usually myopic, some might say. I'm usually a little despondent. And I think that the response to this has just been great. Yeah. People don't even know this type of information, this type of data, this type of analysis existed.

13:07And now they do. And all of this information and analysis can be incredibly useful for brands that are active in the YouTube sponsorship landscape. Influencer marketing agencies as well for creator discovery, competitor analysis, general market overview and looking at which creators might do well with their brand i'm just trying to figure out who what the all the stuff i want to say here i'm sorry i don't want to reveal too much but you don't want to reveal you don't want to tell people how i think you should use it and they would be beneficial what are you trying what are you fucking holding on to okay okay okay cool you're right um and lauren what i think and lauren the people that are using this already we have a hang and lauren and the people that are using this already we have dozens of customers are on board through basically all word of mouth.

13:52They're brands and influencer marketing agencies who love it for just the general market overview, the competitor analysis, and looking at creator discovery through the lens of who's getting brand deals. I think it's a really interesting way to find creators looking at who else those creators have worked with, who else has sponsored those creators, the quantity of times they've done it, how many brand integrations they generally do, and more. And also, if part of your job as a talent manager, talent agent, someone who works at a creator's company, is to get brand deals on YouTube for that creator, this is full stop, hands down, the best lead list you'll ever have.

14:30So just to repeat back to you or distill back to you, like the big differentiator here is nobody is really collecting the data around which creators are specifically like brand deals that have already happened. Nobody's really like collecting in a succinct way, like what brand deals have already happened and what who's working with who. Is that fair to say? Is that the differentiator here? Totally. A hundred percent. And there are some other companies in the ecosystem that say they do this. I think we do it way better. If you look at our data, we go really deep and we're really accurate. I think that comes from our experience as originally being TubeFilter, this editorial outlet, where we can't put out things that aren't accurate into the world.

15:14And so we have a really high degree of accuracy. We go really deep. We want to put out stuff that people can trust. Our name is Gospel Stats. We want to be a source of truth for this ecosystem in space. Look at you. bringing some transparency so that everybody's pie can get bigger. Yeah. You can go download the report at reports.gospelstats.com. And when you look through it, you'll find some numbers. I'll just go through a few. We found a 53.9 % increase in the quantity of sponsored videos on YouTube year over year in the first half of 2025 versus the first half of 2024. We found a 27.9 % year over year increase on the views on those sponsored videos.

15:54So that suggests that there's more sponsorships happening with smaller creators that I think really shows a much more healthier, distributed, democratized ecosystem is developing on the platform. Can you see if they've repeated working with a creator? 100%. Yes, totally. So then that would be interesting information, right? Like the smaller creators and then do they go back for more? Because then obviously you understand the conversion was probably there. 100%. And then just talking about the biggest brands on YouTube, in terms of quantity of sponsored videos, nobody knows what's in the top 10.

16:36Now they do. Ground News is the top sponsor from a quantity of videos perspective. In the first half of 2025, we found at least 1863 videos that were sponsored by them. That's 10 sponsored videos a day, every day for the first half of the year. Wow. I mean, these numbers are huge. I mean, nobody knew that until right now, Joshua. Look what you're doing. Look what you're contributing to the world. This is how I give positive affirmation. I yell. In isolation. He takes it and this is how he receives it. So it's not me. It's the only way he hears it. Go on. So these are little tidbits that are going to be interesting to a lot of people and make other people sound like they know what they're talking about.

17:20But in aggregate, it really paints a vivid picture, this report does, of the sponsorship ecosystem on YouTube. Well, congratulations, Joshua. It sounds like it was a banger of a launch. Yes, thank you. Go check it out. Again, reports.gospelstats.com. I think you'll dig it. Go check out Gospel Stats at gospelstats.com. And if I wanted to just sign up for Gospel Stats, can I just do that? like if one does how does one yeah you can book a demo it's a sas product book a demo and we'll give you you have to book a demo in order to to sign up that's how lots of sas products work a lot i didn't i wasn't comparing you i was just asking a question some sas products you didn't just sign up for yeah 100 are you doing the demos we're all right i do a lot of the demos yes all right great okay good to know so you get you get if you if you this is a way this is a sort of hack of how you can get your one-on-one time with joshua cowan yeah you can get some one-on-one time You can get once in one on a time.

18:13Book a demo. Get some time. Get some time with Joshi. In future episodes of Creator Upload, we can go over some of these other metrics in the report. Lots of insights, but I'll save them for next week. All right. I want to get to our interview with Max Bonader. Like I said, he's the CEO and co-founder of Orca, which partners with the best brands in the world to provide a complete shopping experience for customers throughout shoppable live streams. He co-founded SOCOM, which is the social commerce conference. It's happening again for the second time in February. It's really cool. Nobody's doing anything like this.

18:43So let's get to that interview. Glad to be here. Thank you, Lauren. Of course. Not only are you the co-founder and CEO of Orca, though, you're also the founder of SOCOM, which is like this new-ish social commerce conference that's happening in Los Angeles. Happened first time this past year. And a new one is coming up, I think, in February. We're going to talk all about that today. So I would love to talk to you. Obviously, social commerce is like the thing everybody's been talking about for a long time. You have been deep in this world for a while via Orca and now Socom. So can you talk a little bit, give me the high level again to remind people, you've been on the podcast before, but remind people kind of what Orca is, what Socom is, and what inspired you to sort of launch it?

19:20Yeah, absolutely. So, and this ties into very much driven by my 15 years squarely in the creator representation business and producing television and movies and digital series with creators. So I got to a point where I was working across businesses with 100 plus million followers and YouTube subscribers. And what I noticed was that when we could successfully sell a consumer product, it was way more valuable for the creator than brand deals or even AdSense, depending on the size of your audience on YouTube. And so it's like trying to unlock how do we bring value to the consumer and bring value to the creator or the brand or the social media channel through a real sale.

20:14Alongside this, I was completely unaware that this was a thing in China, that social commerce and live shopping and affiliates was increasingly becoming a trillion dollar industry through Douyin. About what time, what year would you kind of like realizing this or discovering this? So we started Orca five years ago. Our five-year anniversary will be next month. And it started in China maybe four years before that. So it was just starting to become a very big deal in China when we started Orca. So me and my co-founder, Lauren, who has a background, not you, Lauren Stevens, has a background as a television development executive and showrunner.

21:05And so we got together to create a live stream shopping and social commerce provider. At the time, we thought we were late because there were all of these startups getting funded. The winner of those startups, they were like platform. They wanted to be what TikTok shop is today because these founders saw what was happening overseas. The winner of that group is Whatnot. So it was around the time Whatnot got funded and happy to share more on Whatnot later. But five years ago, this space was brand new and we were early, which was an interesting surprise for us. Uh, so we started streaming on, on Amazon live, but when TikTok shop emerged in the U S about three years ago, two years into our existence, we sold the very first product on TikTok shop U S and we were the very first official TikTok shop partner.

22:07So, uh, long story short, Orca is a complete live stream and social commerce solution. We have studios in Los Angeles. We have live stream studios in Mexico. We have offices in London. So we are across all of Mexico and Latin America, UK, Europe, and the US. We have driven over$100 million in product sales over the last 12 months. Most of that on TikTok shop, but we also - How do you guys, you take a piece of the sales? How do you guys monetize, if I may ask? Yeah. So in two ways, we have a really wonderful agency business and we're fee for service. So brands like Estee Lauder and Elf Beauty, they pay us a fee and we deliver creator affiliate programs, live stream shopping, paid media, marketplace and shop operations like the back end of your social e-commerce.

23:10and then we also serve for a number of brands as a distributor. So we fund everything. We're the exclusive distributor for certain brands and we earn a wholesale margin on anything we sell. So that's pure play just based on our own success. Got it. Okay. Okay. And then so tell us how SOCOM came about. Yeah. So a couple of years ago, we were asked by TikTok to go around the country to South by Southwest and VidCon and ShopTalk and do these live shopping activations, which was awesome. Every time we would go to these conferences, we realized none of them held everything required for social commerce within the conference, right?

23:57So VidCon, we all know, is an awesome fan conference, creator conference. And yes, there is creator merch there and there are brands there, but there are no e-commerce sales leader. There are no fulfillment and warehousing executives present. So you're missing a huge piece of the puzzle. If you go to ShopTalk, you get all of that retail e-commerce technology, CTOs, all of the fulfillment partners. It's an awesome conference. There's no content, right? You go to Adweek, you see what's happening with marketing and brand and content and everything related to that side of it, but you don't have the rest of it.

24:43So SOCOM is the first social commerce conference in the US that brings all of these pieces together and all of them are required for a successful social commerce activation. And last thing I'll say, Lauren, is that that's the biggest challenge for brands when they enter the space, when they say, how can I activate on TikTok shop or YouTube shopping or Amazon shoppable videos or whatnot or eBay live? they have to corral the sales leader and the merchandising folks, the influencer and social folks, because you've got to you've got to activate all of these creators and the paid media. And so you have to get everyone together in order to turn it on.

25:34OK, so did it last year. Who do you think is the perfect sort of audience for this? It sounds like brands should be in the audience for this. It sounds like creators could be. I mean, who are you sort of targeting? Like, you know, who should be buying tickets to this to go see this? Like, because I remember one of the when I went last year, I think it was the CMO of Gap that was there. It was really, really cool. Like you had some really for the first for I've been to a lot of cons. Benader, like, you know this. And so sorry, everybody. We're on a last name basis over here. And I've seen a lot of first year cons.

26:04I remember Hannah Hart, God love her, used to be like, I don't do first year cons because they're always kind of a mess. I swear to God, I remember this. And your first year con was like very solid. Like, you know, the parking, I mean, the, you know, it was in Venice. It was kind of a schlep, like, listen, you know, but the actual event was really good. And you had some very, very solid sort of panelists and stuff. So, you know, yeah. So who should be like going to this? And then, you know, what are they going to learn there? Yeah, I really appreciate that. We had much more modest expectations for our first year.

26:36Malik Ducard ended up committing to be our keynote speaker our first year, and he's the chief content officer. Of course, he was, yeah, he was the longtime YouTube executive and now he's been at Pinterest for a long time. What is he? You said chief content officer. Yeah. Yeah. And that, and that was like, wow, this is awesome. And then the CMO of Gap and then the chief digital officer of Athleta and then senior leadership from TikTok. And all of a sudden we had this incredible educational opportunity with these. So we were blown away by that. The, the folks who should attend are number one, anyone who is an exec, who's a brand person should be there.

27:14The value for brands is insane and I think really critical to learn about this stuff because your dot-com or your Amazon efforts have got to be bolstered with what's happening on TikTok shop and on these social platforms. Brand executives, creator representatives. So anyone in the creator business, whether you are selling brand deals for creators, you're probably trying to crack affiliate right now because a lot of the opportunities coming in are probably affiliate or reduced creator fee plus affiliate upside. So any representatives in the creator space, here's what I would say about creators themselves.

28:03the conference is split into two parts the first the the daytime programming from 9 a.m to 5 p.m is industry so if you're a creator who runs your own business and you're doing the deals and you're making decisions about where you want to be selling totally come to the industry conference but that is industry oriented the the evening the after party is also a live stream gifting suite and we've got some news we can't share yet, but there's some exciting stuff. What am I going to get? I'm going to get some swag. Yeah, there's tons of product. Get your product samples for your affiliate videos. I cannot wait.

28:43We'll have hundreds of creators there. So that's where creators should join. So I have a question around, like I'd love to sort of talk a little bit, like in the last even 12 months, obviously there's been a lot of changes with social commerce. I was talking the other day with someone about these sort of curated storefronts and I feel like, And then, you know, we obviously have Sephora, which is finally getting into like much more curated storefronts. And I think Dick's Sporting Goods, like all these sort of folks are like really finally understanding the harnessing the power of creators is a must.

29:10And they want to do it directly on their websites to kind of so they can do the shipping and fulfillment directly. How do you reconcile that with like the TikTok shops, the, you know, Instagram shops? I personally, anecdotally, really don't like checking out on a platform like I like I like to go to the website. I don't care if I'm giving you an affiliate fee. I want to go to the website. I want to know who's shipping it to me that I can return it. Like I just, you know, so I just love to understand like your thoughts from like sort of a 30 ,000 foot view. Cause I feel like in the last 12 months, that's become much more prevalent.

29:41These sort of curated storefronts. Yeah. So lots of thoughts. I mean, we, we both know Instagram has struggled to figure out their shopping strategy. I think they're still trying to figure it out and they, they've experimented with a few different things. TikTok, because their marketplace in China, the TikTok in China is called Douyin, is so successful. I think it'll do$800 billion this year. It's Amazon size. TikTok knew coming into the US, UK, Europe, all these other markets, they had to build a real e-commerce marketplace. It can't just be a layer of click to shop. And so TikTok, I believe, has solved that with TikTok Shop.

30:29You're actually shopping on an e-commerce platform. You're required as a brand or as an agency representing a brand to have 24-hour, seven days a week customer service. It's better than most you know, Shopify stores. For the, it's Conde Nast also is doing creator storefronts, Sephora, everybody who's exploring that. I hope the opportunity is huge. I hope they're making the right level of investment because it can't just be a marketing program. They have to create a complete ecosystem, a complete two-sided marketplace. You need customers who want to purchase and you need creators who want to come in and tag product.

31:21Sephora has a really good shot of doing that. Sephora needs to do that, by the way. Well, I was going to say, Sephora is like, if they've messed this up, like that's insane because they, they've, you know, they're so so set up for success on so many levels so it feels like that should be a no-brainer for them but like also crazier things have happened yeah but do you so so would you are you saying you would like that experience if you saw a creator tagged let's say a beauty product and then you were taken to sephora that works for you that works for me okay that works for me if i'm taken to the if i'm taken to the like i basically like my shopping is basically i mean literally the outfit i'm wearing right now is because i have a handful of and even calling them influencers is a step, but it's like, call it mommy, probably my generation, you know, influencers.