The Podcast Gold Rush | Creator Upload

0:00Josh, can you believe we have been doing this podcast for almost six years. Lauren, seriously, it only feels like, what, 20, 30? More like 50, am I right? Definitely 50. Well, in anticipation of our sixth anniversary happening this February, we actually want to hear from you, our audience. That is right. We're officially plugging and pushing the Creator Upload Survey. It's here. It's happening. For the first time ever, we are interested in something other than ourselves. In partnership with Deepwater Strategies, who put this together for us, thank you very much, We want to learn about you. It's truly historic.

0:37Please head to bit.ly slash creator upload survey. That's B-I-T dot L-Y slash creator upload survey and tell us all the things. What you want more of me, what you want less of Josh and everything in between. We'll be talking a lot about it. So just go to bit.ly slash creator upload survey and make our lives way easier. Exactly. Thanks for being with us all these years. Now go fill out the survey, bit.ly slash creator upload survey. That's bit.ly slash creator upload survey. Welcome to Creator Upload, your Creator Economy podcast. I'm Lauren Schnipper. And I'm Joshua Cohen. Lauren. What? Do you listen to Christmas music?

1:17Do I listen to Christmas music? You are talking to a Jew who loves Christmas music. Like that is my job. That is my job. I went, I had a big birthday a couple of years ago. We don't have to talk about what it was. and I went to like a big band Christmas music night at downtown LA. That's really cool. Like, you know, it was like a event space. It's like very mid-central. I don't know. Not Art Deco. That's the word. Art Deco and everybody got dressed up. Just some of the music that you grew up with. By the way, 90 % of the Christmas songs. From your generation also in an environment, architectural environment that you grew up with as well.

1:51Thank you very much. 90 % of Christmas songs written by Jews. Go on. Literally. That's what I was going to say. It's in our blood. No, it truly is. Look it up, people. Rudolph, all of it. Sleigh Ride, Winter Wonderland. So many. It's the most wonderful time of the year. White Christmas. That's an Irving Berlin jam. Irving Berlin, man. Frosty the Snowman. Thank you, Steve Nelson. Rocking Around the Christmas Tree, Johnny Marks. The Christmas song, Chestnuts Roasting on the Open Fire by Mel Torme. I mean, what do you people want from us? What more do these people want from us? Why do you ask, Joshua?

2:24Just because Christmas music is getting, and the Christmas time of year, as we all know, is just getting pushed up earlier and earlier in the calendar. There was this report from Radio Insights recently that said that more than two dozen stations have started playing Christmas songs since November 1st, the day after Halloween. One station started as early as October 7th. Wow. That's 103.1 KLO FM in Utah. Of course, Utah. Always bringing it. I love it. You know, in Canada, because they don't they don't have Thanksgiving, evidently, they start very early as well because they go from Halloween. Right.

3:00Basically, the next deal is there because their thing their Thanksgiving, I think, is October. So basically, I think it's like post-Halloween. They start Christmas music. I mean, as it should be. Just embrace it. Christmas time is just starting to happen earlier and earlier in the year. There's this phenomenon Christmas creep that's invading all aspects of our economy. John Lewis, the famed British department store, posts this Christmas ad every single year. And some people on the internet are a little perturbed that it came out with its annual Christmas ad on November 4th. There's really a simple explanation for this.

3:32It's that brands want to command user attention, obviously, as early as possible, and they want to convert those impressions into sales. So if you can get in front of the whole Christmas pack earlier, I think that's going to convert more for you. There's that same radio station report I was talking about says that if you can be the de facto Christmas station in your locale, your ratings just get huge bumps. So that is incentivizing for people to get out as early in front of it as possible. Michael Davis, who's a professor at SMU Cox Business School, said of this phenomenon, quote, the advertisers are just trying to cut through the clutter.

4:07With the attention comes the dollars. It's a tough comedy out there in lots of ways these days. I think the kind of downer message here is retailers are really worried that the Christmas season is going to be down and they're trying to get as much money in the cash box as soon as they can get it and how this manifests in our world is i think this is just a manifestation or a product of not having a handful of channels that people are watching having people's attention distributed across millions of different creators on dozens of different platforms yeah i mean i think that um the reason christmas starts in july now is because of creators is basically what the thesis is basically you're defending this phd in front of a committee i think you could make a very strong connection to uh from christmas in july to creators all jokes aside i don't think you're wrong totally i think thank you that's my thesis statement that's your thesis yeah no we'd get we'd land that plane one day we knew we were gonna get there yeah one song that i love that they stopped playing this might be inappropriate it's like um don't day is the santa claus is that that one.

5:14I'd never heard it until I was living in LA. It's so good. But it's like, you only get it. It's not one that's on regular rotation. It's so good. All right. We're going to move off of Christmas, even though we're starting early here, apparently, too. This wonderful installment of Creator Upload is brought to you by Viral Nation. Viral Nation is a leading global social media marketing and creator agency with a social first approach powered by its brand-safe technology. Viral Nation powers global growth for brands like Elf Cosmetics, Audible, A24, MGM Resorts International, Microsoft Meta, Tencent, Zillow, and Walmart, redefining how brands engage and thrive in an ever-evolving digital world.

5:56Take your content to new heights with Viral Nation. Let's get into lots of announcements around podcasts this week, specifically iHeartMedia and TikTok partner to launch a multi-platform partnership. So obviously, iHeart Media is a leading audio company in America. I think we all know what TikTok is. There's three components to this. Again, there's the TikTok Podcast Network, TikTok Radio, and the sort of iHeart Live Events. They are going to collaborate around TikTok Podcast Network, which will feature up to 25 new podcasts hosted by TikTok creators. And it will also be on national broadcast and digital radio channels.

6:35And there will be live events as a part of this as well. our heart is introducing new co-branded state-of-the-art podcast studios in New York, LA and Atlanta. So the three sort of components of this TikTok radio. So, um, you, they're going to pair, uh, creators with experience, I heart radio personalities, and it's going to be available across broadcast radio stations nationwide and digitally on I heart radio. Um, it'll, the idea is that it's going to be listeners will feel like they are scrolling TikTok with their ears because that's what we all need uh not only can brain rot be established by looking but now listening um so and obviously some of the marquee iheart stations are kiss fm in la z100 in new york uh there's going to be iheart radio live events they're going to join forces and they're going to do major activations with brands and content creators what is that going to look like i don't know yet rich brusler president and cfo of for iheart media says this partnership connects tiktok cultural energy and creator community the unmatched scale and reach of iheart media we're giving creators access to the biggest audio platforms in america creating new ways stories entertain and build deeper connections with fans together we're combining our vast networks to deliver relevant content on a massive scale it's a win for creators fans and brands alike i think this is super smart i mean my feelings about tiktok aside one of the big issues with TikTok is fans being really connected to the creators on TikTok.

8:03It's a very much a kind of user dominated experience, unlike platforms like YouTube, where you feel like the creator kind of is driving the show because of the algorithm on TikTok. For better or worse, you get like a lot of discovery, but you don't go as deep. Famously, I've mentioned this many times a couple years ago at VidCon, big, you know, TikTok creator was at VidCon to do a meet and greet, huge creator, or nobody showed up to it because there's not that sort of connection. So anything that like, I think can help TikTokers get a deeper connection with our audience is actually, is a win for that platform, if that is the wins you are looking for.

8:37And also monetizing your creative ways. I think this is super interesting. And I think we're just going to see more and more of these kinds of collaborations with, you know, if you consider iHeartMedia sort of a more traditional kind of media entity connecting with, you know, doing some sort of collaborations and with platforms and creators is just, it's going to be the new norm. I mean, if you look on LinkedIn right now, major studios are hiring heads of creators. I mean, this is all, this is where we're going. This is where we're at. And I think it's about time. Lauren, do you think it's interesting that the platform itself is doing the deal with iHeartMedia and not like a big management company or a talent agency?

9:16I think that like, it's not one or the other. I think this is super smart for TikTok, for their brand and for them to, I totally understand why TikTok is doing this and why they're seeking out these partnerships because they have, you know, you just don't monetize as well on the platform, right? On that platform. And so I think I understand completely why it happens. I'm not surprised by it. I think this is the direction that we're going in. There's just less of, I mean, if you think about the years, the decades long battle that like a Facebook slash meta was in with the music industry. If you think about the, you know, the days when Viacom and YouTube were locked in a battle, I remember when you literally couldn't say the word YouTube on any Viacom owned station, like MTV or anything like that, because they were blocked.

10:01And they were in these battles because it was like, the traditional media was like, you're taking advantage. You're not paying people. Like there was just like, there was just like, no, we own this world. Like we're not inviting you into it. We're just beyond that, like in every possible way. And because the money and the dollars are going towards this direction. So I'm not surprised by this. I think you're going to see all sorts of different partnerships, whether it be with talent agencies, whether it be with platforms like this is just it's all media now, right? Like it's not traditional versus creator economy, blah, blah, blah.

10:37It's all one thing right now. And it's just lean into it, man. Yeah, I just think it's interesting from the perspective that the platform is the one the deal here it's kind of like if this was a movie studio it's like the platform tiktok doing a first look deal with universal or something it's just interesting they're taking this like forward leaning approach where they're doing this entertainment not a jv kind of a jv no it seems like kind of a jv putting a bunch of their creators forward making selections on who they like more than not to be one of the creators that are part of this program i think it's just an interesting move from a platform that we really haven't seen before in this context.

11:17What's interesting, and this actually relates back to the Ring Awards at Instagram, which of course is their new awards program celebrating creators who push creative boundaries and influence culture, but not based on follower count. They're also only giving 25, doling out sort of 25 rings, if you will, or 25 winners. And this is only 25 creators that are going to partner with iHeart. historically at these platforms if you don't start with scale and address everything at scale like you cannot get any traction so it's actually a very very big shift that there's initiatives that are very sort of loud and big that are having such a small subset of creators and i think it's just it's really indicative of where we are too just in the sense we're like there's so there's so much out there.

12:02And I think people are craving curation. They're craving direction as to what they should sort of look at because it's just too much. And so I think in the background, underneath all of this is a bit of that kind of thesis as well. And it really is significant from a strategic perspective as to how the platforms are now doing things. I can't tell you. I mean, get any initiatives or anything when I was at Facebook that didn't start with scale. And sometimes things could end up with scale, but you start smaller to get there and that would just, you couldn't get any initiative, anything internally, any support.

12:41And that was very, I found that very frustrating to be honest. This seems kind of cross-functional though, where it's also marketing both external and internal. A hundred percent. Internal in that it creates this aspirational trajectory for creators that are on the TikTok platform of a high point that they can shoot towards to be part of this program. And then external where TikTok and iHeartRadio have this deal and you're going to be listening to some TikTok stars on some iHeartRadio channels. Listen, I've been saying this for years. When I was at Facebook and one of the things I would talk about a lot is this aspirational funnel that YouTube had versus what at the time Facebook did not have.

13:14In the sense where like, even though you and I both know the number of like people making, you know, six figures a month on YouTube, even to this day, is actually relatively small to the amount of creators that are doing it the fact that you could do that yeah exactly like possibility was there made it so that's where people wanted to go and so like the fact that like instagram has this thing now where you could possibly be called out as one of these 25 winners the fact the fact that like tiktok has this thing where you could possibly be picked up picked up to be one of the 25 podcast like this is what people i know it's spoiler i'm a capitalist people need incentives OK, that's what motivates people.

13:50That's what there's no it's literally there's nothing else, whether it's money, whether it's the golden ring or whatever it is, people are motivated by incentives. And especially in this world where there's so much, again, choice out there and you're just overwhelming. Don't ever begin like, oh, my God, I can look at this thing. I can see. OK, I have a place to go. It's critical. What I also think is interesting here is that TikTok and other short form video platforms have become a primary distribution model for podcasts. You have these long form programs that are then clipped up by the producers of the podcast or by these new clipping companies and distributed in innumerable ways across the internet for massive consumption.

14:33That's how I consume a lot of podcasts. I don't have a ton of them in my feed, but I'll watch clips when I am scrolling through YouTube Shorts. So I think it's interesting that TikTok is like, yo, a lot of this stuff is happening on our platform. Let's just get involved in the production of it as well. They're also taking that POV from the creator's perspective too, where there have been huge TikTok stars like Alex Earl and Madeline Argy who have become these big podcasters. And I think TikTok is probably thinking, yo, they're getting their notoriety and fame and audience on our platform. How can we, one, increase the trajectory and the speed of their success?

15:17And two, maybe recoup some expenses or get a little piece of it along the way. It's interesting they've taken this active role in content creation when that has been out of vogue since the originals initiative at places like facebook and youtube became defunct several years ago i mean this is this is um what you know so i mean not you know a jelly smack it's no secret that like they were you know there was a lot of work at the time that was being done really well in terms of syndicating um creators some of whom got really big and then they went off and they did you know they got signed with an agent and they did this and that and so it was like a lot of the work i was doing there was trying to figure out how do we then build capabilities internally were such that we can capitalize on things that we've actually built and so i think that's um it's both a great it's a thesis it's i've seen it i've seen it in a deck a thousand times the the question is execution the question is that can platforms do it and speaking of podcasts not to be outdone threads you know uh you might be familiar meta's version of twitter slash x they're also going to be targeting um podcasters they're trying to bring more discussions around podcasts to threads and help creators promote their show how they're going to do this it's going to give podcast links in the feed a unique and more pronounced look with colorful backgrounds image thumbnails and make them easier to spot i like i was trying to get made podcasts and things on like you know facebook and instagram back in the day that for a minute there was an audio only product.

16:46This is well before like the live audio sort of boom, but it didn't sort of last. So they're going to get these sort of unique more pronounced look, you know, links. And then they're also going to get a dedicated spot in their user profile to add a link to their podcasts. Apparently thread says these links, which are similarly designed to stand out will help podcasters better promote their shows and grow their audience. What's Interesting. The numbers right now are kind of huge. So Thread currently has more than 400 monthly active users and about 150 million daily active. And X claims that they have 600 million, which like relative to like, you know, how long Threads has been around, that's actually a fairly small gap, you know, considering how long, you know, X slash Twitter has been around.

17:29So obviously, if they can sort of lean into the podcast community, this will be potentially lessening that gap. I love anesthetic update to promote stuff on platforms. Tell me more. Tell me more. You love it. It's different than a product update. It's just like when you do this thing, it's going to look a little bit cooler. So that's what is incentivizing people to do the thing. I love that. We'll see how it goes. I'm really happy that you love that. I feel really good about that for you. And Lauren, not to be left behind, Netflix is also getting serious about podcasts. We've talked about this in the past.

18:08multiple numbers of times, but Lucas Shaw had a recent report in Bloomberg that says the company has reached out to multiple talent and their representatives about making original shows that would be exclusive to the service. They're also, according to unnamed sources, the platform is going to be launching a marketing campaign to support the podcast and make app adjustments, hopefully some aesthetically cool ones, to make sure that users know about the podcasts that are on Netflix too. also supposedly launching some vertical video form of Netflix as well in the near future. I mean, there's just like a lot going on in podcasts right now.

18:43It's really exciting. Lauren, there is a lot going on in podcasts right now. And I think we're just barreling towards a future where people do the thing on television or in the movie to just get a podcast. It's like, let me go on Love is Blind, last for as long as I can so I can get a podcast, because that's going to be more lucrative than whatever the original thing I was in that I got famous for was. If you can have a substantial NFL career, you can then make way more money off of that potentially on podcasts and endorsements. Yeah, potentially. Whether you're an athlete, reality star, movie star, television star, or whatever, we're quickly entering a world where people are doing those things with it in mind where like, oh, after I do this, I can maybe do a podcast.

19:33I think it's not to always bring it back to my favorite show, Dancing with Stars, but something I think that's very interesting that I'm thinking about a lot is they now have the official Dancing with the Stars podcast. That's basically right after you get sort of kicked off the show, you go on the podcast. And historically, you would go on Good Morning America. Now, they still partner with Good Morning America, but like the first stop is the podcast. And you just see where this is going. Like there's going to be no Good Morning America anymore, because like it's going to get that's getting more and more expensive and there's less and less money going in that direction.

20:03The podcasts are very relatively cheap to like sort of, you know, produce and all that sort of stuff. And so it's just it's just interesting that there's a there's a pit stop before you go to like the traditional sort of like morning show now. Josh, you have any uploads or downloads? I think I've got one. I think it's interesting. Another sort of traditional meets creator economy collaboration, if you will. visa credit card company is partnering with carrot financial sort of a creator credit card company if you will to launch an ai powered financial tools for creators uh targeting emerging creators offering advice and automated payment solutions it also includes um an ai agent that can assist in evaluating brand deal offers so um this is you know it's going to launch in 2026 for carrot clients and will initially be free um might become paid in the future but it's been it's also gonna it's gonna include things like automated prompts for vendors about unpaid invoices and then rolling their bills in auto pay has like been it's it's the achilles heel of the you know sort of brand deal world right like getting paid net 30 sometimes net 90 and then people they miss their you know they don't pay on time and that stuff and it's really really difficult that's why there's been companies that have popped up around sort of like invoice factoring where like, I'm going to give you that I know you're going to get paid in like 90 days for you know, a brand deal.

21:21So I will pay you that money up front, you'll give me a little piece of the money once you get your actual payment. There's, there's a lot of those kind of companies that have popped up. But, you know, so I think, you know, this is, you know, this is on the heels of WPP has recently forecast that creators will earn up to 185 billion dollars in 2025 up 20 % from 2024. And so Jonathan Colosveri, a global hub of small business at Visa, said, we are firm believers that the composition of the pie is changing, meaning creators are a new segment that has emerged over the last few years. So like they woke up and they're like, we have to pay attention to this cohort.

22:04So I think that is a very cool upload. So Lauren, Carrot and Visa first got in business together in 2023. That's when Carrot raised a 70 million series B and launched its first business card in partnership with Visa. What I think is super encouraging here is that two years later, there's another deal with Visa. So things seemingly are going well at Care. I love the team over there. Eric Way is awesome. And I'm stoked to see them develop their business further with this traditional financial partner. I think that speaks a lot to where this economy is and where people like Visa think it's going.

22:42Lauren, quick upload for you if you like TikTok and TikTok Shop. Ecotik, which is an analytics company, said that TikTok Shop's gross merchandise value in the last quarter was$19 billion. You can compare that to eBay, who had$20.1 billion of quarterly sales. So TikTok Shop, only a few years in the making, is rivaling eBay now, which is just wild to think about. and it's not like eBay is content with its position in the market. They still want to capture the kids these days. They know they're using TikTok shop and these other platforms more often. So what do they do? They partner with people like Emma Chamberlain.

23:25eBay recently launched a campaign with a social media star where she sold her old clothes on the platform for charity. So they have things like ERL jeans that went for$26. There was a Louis Vuitton and Yayoi Kusama scarf that went for$275. The star of her 2022 Coachella look, this diesel crossbody bag, went for$106. Apparently some good deals. The money went to save the children. And this isn't the first time eBay's done a charity sale with a celebrity. They had previous ones with Elton John, David Furnish, Donatella Versace, Brandi Carlisle, Betsy Johnson, Robin Roberts, and Andy Cohen. First time they worked with a big creator though.

24:03I think it's cool to see. All right, Josh. I think we did it. Lauren I think that's it I'll see you biting the bullet creating a TikTok to just be a DWTS podcast podcast in the hopes that you can get on iHeart I just want to get on Dancing with the Stars like literally what do I have to do if girls got a dream this could be the path I'm not there next week on Creator Upload Today's show is produced by Lauren Schnipper, Joshua Cohen that's me and Adam Conner it's edited by Adam Conner too original music is by London Bridge you can check him out on Instagram at London Bridge Music make sure you subscribe to Creator Upload right here on YouTube, on Apple Podcasts, as well as Spotify or wherever you're listening.

24:40While you're there, give us a rating and leave us a comment. If you want to talk, hit us up at info at creatorupload.com. If you like our show, recommend it to a friend. If you love it, just tell everyone. Thanks for listening to Creator Upload and we will be back next week.