CJ SPIRAL: Mica Miller

15:58Ashley Flowers:Like, to quote Euphoria, is this play about us?

16:02Brit Prawat:Yes. Yes. And so, but again, he's like using his pulpit to just spew this stuff. Okay, so the moment that everything, I think, changes and takes this very dramatic turn into where we will end up a couple of years from now is apparently she has this breast augmentation, which her family thinks maybe she got just because of him. I have no idea why she chose to do that. But there's this, I was going to say insinuation, but it's pretty blatant in the doc where they say or someone is saying that.

16:33Ashley Flowers:Yeah, they basically, I was going to say imply, but you're right. They say that. The anesthesia. There was a reaction to the anesthesia and she like began having like psychotic episodes. She was going in and out of psychosis from the anesthesia.

16:48Brit Prawat:Which I have like 400 questions about. Yeah. Because we really to like prove this we really get one video that he is taking of her where she she isn't making sense. No. But it's strange because like there is another moment in that first episode where you can tell she is taking a video. And it's like, by the way, this is something that I've seen people do in really toxic relationships is they'll like record themselves video, audio to like playback later.

17:18Ashley Flowers:To prove to themselves what's happening.

17:20Brit Prawat:Yeah, because the other person will like make them feel crazy.

17:24Ashley Flowers:Gaslight them.

17:24Brit Prawat:Right. And so like the first time we see this like moment, she's not recording. She's just kind of talking to him and sounding off.

17:33Ashley Flowers:And like you can't even really tell if she knows she's being recorded in that moment. Like the phone's kind of like off the shots kind of off to the side and like she's not acknowledging. Yeah. Like that she's being filmed at all. But the second time that you're talking about when she's filming herself, she does acknowledge like, hey, yeah, go ahead. Double film me. Like if that's what you want to do.

17:51Brit Prawat:Which I think is interesting that we don't have, like, her version. We have his, which is the, like, encapsulation of this entire case and, like, the entire last few years of her life. We have his version. Because of him. Right. Like, that's very, very obvious. So at some point, like, this is 1856. And this is, like, what I couldn't believe in the documentary. He has her involuntarily committed. Yes. Which I know you can do.

18:23Ashley Flowers:And we see some of the medical documents that do state that she's like seemingly delusional. She's having like hyper religious speak. Like there are things that indicate she has seemingly had some break with reality.

18:38Brit Prawat:how she got there why she got there i have a like i said 400 questions about but she gets out of there they get married six days after she gets out which is like but because he had a time plan that was the other thing they said like once they like decided they were gonna be together apparently he gave her some kind of like we're gonna get engaged at this point we're gonna be

19:01Ashley Flowers:engaged for this long and then we'll get married and like her i wonder if like i'm gonna have you

19:05Brit Prawat:committed was like in there.

19:06Ashley Flowers:I would say her being institutionalized like could have thrown off his schedule and that was not going to be OK. Not today. The vows I thought were interesting. Did you clock those? She's they one they she said that they had gone in with a plan to give each other five promises and she could only come up with one. And her promise was to give 100 percent of everything she does, 100 percent of herself, 100 percent of her encouragement. This is like a kind of broad quote to him. Yeah. Everything I am, I give to you. His was like different. And I don't even know if we heard all of his. I don't know if we heard all of it, but I did take notes.

19:42You did. I'll strive to continuously lead you to Jesus. So she needs to be led. I promise to always support your enthusiastic personality. Which is like timing wise interesting because he just had her committed for like kind of that.

19:58Ashley Flowers:And it's not even like, I love it. It's like, I'll support your enthusiastic personality. He'll remain faithful, loyal, encouraging. Spoiler alert, no. And he's going to strive to love you the way Christ loved the church. He'll try. Right. That was like his best thing. She's like, whatever, I just couldn't. I agree. I also will say that like, in hindsight, those are all like really vows. But in the moment, in that environment, those vows are super normal. Yeah. Those vows are super normal. I know. Like, I want to be, like, really clear that we are watching a documentary and we are looking at it, like, a decade or more out of the church.

20:41Ashley Flowers:I don't think those vows would have given me any red flags.

20:44Brit Prawat:Not at the time. But her family—

20:47Ashley Flowers:Her family was not thrilled.

20:48Brit Prawat:Because they had more background. And this is where—yeah, no. The vows by themselves don't. And to your point of the same thing with the sermons. it's like when you're in it and you're living it i think this is what can be so hard to like spot abuse in someone else is like you from the outside get these like tiny moments where like

21:09Ashley Flowers:something feels off smushed in between everything else you're like well everything else is like

21:14Brit Prawat:what that must just be like a weird them thing yeah and maybe the vows aren't even that because like i agree with you in the church that wouldn't have registered but like this is when after they get married i think their friends start to get those weird moments like the well and her

21:27Ashley Flowers:And she and I told a couple other people this after I watched it, like, I am so proud of her for how much she talked to her friends.

21:36Brit Prawat:Yeah.

21:37Ashley Flowers:Because, I mean, you and I see it all the time in episodes where, like, abuse and coercion and manipulation is happening and the person experiencing it never says a thing.

21:45Brit Prawat:Yeah.

21:45Ashley Flowers:And you find out from their diaries or you find out from their recordings. And you don't you don't find out any of that until it's it's too late. And like she she was already doing that. But I can tell you from experience saying those things in that environment.

22:03Brit Prawat:About the pastor.

22:05Ashley Flowers:About your husband, the pastor.

22:07Brit Prawat:Impossible. Incredibly brave for her to say the things that she said to anyone, let alone we have like three of her friends at least, plus her family.

22:17Ashley Flowers:Like, she was saying things that, like, I know are really, really scary to say in any environment from the work that we do. But, like, in that environment is honestly almost unheard of. I know.

22:30Brit Prawat:And I don't know how long it took her to get to that point. But, like, she does start to drop these little things. Like, right at one point she's like, I'm not allowed to, like, get out of bed before him in the morning. And again, her friends are like, well, that's.

22:41Ashley Flowers:That's kind of weird. But, like, your relationship, you guys do you. Yeah.

22:44Brit Prawat:And then it starts getting more concerning where she's like, we have sex every single day, sometimes multiple times a day.

22:51Ashley Flowers:And if it doesn't happen, he finds it somewhere else.

22:55Brit Prawat:Every day?

22:56Ashley Flowers:Which is like, all of her friends were like, girl, are you okay? Like, it's wild.

23:03Brit Prawat:And I think that, like, I think he must have known that she was starting to share because, or this, I mean, we see this in so many abusive relationships. But like this idea that we get in the documentary where she talks about one of her friends talks about how she's not allowed to like hang out for more than like two hours or three hours. And he starts because you start calling and calling and calling. And I think I was thinking about like what that is. It's like I don't think it's that they want to be with them. It's like in an hour, everyone's catching up. Right. Everyone's talking. But like the more time you give them to share and share.

23:34Ashley Flowers:It's a comfortable level. It's like when my dad would like let us rough house and he's like, OK, but after 15 minutes, like you're going to hurt yourself because you're going to get too comfortable. Like, you're going to, like, push the limits because you're in this place of, like, you're in the zone. Yeah. And you will push yourself and push yourself until someone gets hurt. And, like, that's essentially the same thing but emotionally. Like, she's going to be so comfortable that she's going to open it up and it's going to expose him. Or she's going to – also, like, the longer you're out of the bubble and you – The more you realize that your life is weird.

24:00Brit Prawat:Yeah. That, like, oh, wait. That's not okay. You and your husband – your husband doesn't make you have sex with him every single day? Oh, your husband doesn't make you – like, oh, my God, maybe there is something. like I feel like it's wrong but I'm being told it's not the affirmation that like yeah this is it's so much of why someone in a relation they'll give you whatever excuse they want

24:20Ashley Flowers:to keep you away from people it's isolation but yeah isolation is for a reason put the excuses

24:27Brit Prawat:aside go out go beyond the bubble is what I would suggest to people spend more time outside and I Like, you realize what's happening inside is not right. And I think more and more that was starting to happen for her. Now, at some point, the relationship, like, it had to have looked good from the outside, right? Like, they're getting married. People are happy for him. Her family's showing up to the wedding.

24:50Ashley Flowers:The church seems to be doing, like, well.

24:52Brit Prawat:Yeah. But it starts, like, really deteriorating. And it seems like that began to happen, at least the way they position it in the documentary, because he starts pushing her more and more. Whatever was happening before in their marriage, he gets to this point where he's pushing her sexually. And, like, it feels like this breaking point was when he was, like, asking her, like, you know, if you had to kiss any of your friends. And, like, the way he does this made me want to crawl out of my skin because she's like, no, I don't. I don't. I don't. But he pushes and pushes.

25:28Ashley Flowers:And finally she says a name of like a very close friend of hers. And then he flips.

25:33Brit Prawat:The way he put her and him in a group chat with that friend was psychotic. And it's like the way he tried to like control the story of like, okay, I'm going to put you in this friend and I'm going to talk about how you're crazy and you're leaving. And she's like, I just wanted to go see my sister. Like, what are you talking about? You're acting crazy. And it's all about God. You're not being godly. No man would stand for this. It was unbelievable. And she's starting to move more and more away. And this is when we get the first, I don't know how much violence she was experiencing. But the first thing we see in the documentary is there's a point where he threatens to come to her sisters.

26:15Ashley Flowers:With a gun.

26:16Brit Prawat:I mean, I think what he says is, I'm armed and ready. In the documentary, I think they show an image of a gun. So I'm making the inference. And there is talk in Affidavits Later about him purchasing guns, going shooting. So anyways, unbelievable. And so this is where we get that violence that's being threatened.

26:33Ashley Flowers:Right, because up until now, it's like psychological, emotional. Or seems like that's all we know about. That's all that we've seen in the documentary, at least.

26:41Brit Prawat:So we really end episode one at that point. Yeah. I was hooked. So episode two, we open with, you know, this like beautiful sermon. Where he is talking about, obey those who have authority over you because no authority exists without God's permission. And again, this is a theme throughout. God has anointed him. God must have given him authority. And this is the thing that I'm like, I don't know why people believe. Because like also in the Bible, it's like beware of false prophets. And so like I want to make sure that comes through.

27:22Ashley Flowers:I watched this documentary the first time with your sister, which was...

27:25Brit Prawat:Oh, did you really?

27:26Ashley Flowers:Yeah, we watched it together. You had texted us the night before. We came into work the next day and you were like, we're going to talk about this. You guys should watch it. And we're like, well, why not? So we watched it together. And that was something that we both paused and were like, so this is kind of like an Ouroboros, a snake that eats its own tail, right? It's like, you're anointed by God because God told you you're anointed. So you're anointed by God because you're like it. It was really hard. And I think this might be like a good time to like talk a little bit about what a non-denominal church is like.

27:59Ashley Flowers:Yeah. Like to a certain extent in this non-denominational church. That's all he needs. Right. Like is the belief that he is anointed by God to do this in a lot of non-denominational churches. there isn't necessarily an, like, governing body that, like, specifically ordains or teaches and trains through a program. Like, there are a lot of churches that are non-denominational that, like, are kind of just started by people and stop. And, like, I don't know J.P. Miller's, like, theological, seminary, educational history. But, like— I got some details coming your way. Which is why I didn't Google. But, like, I know that, like, we both kind of sat there and we're like, you know, like, he's saying this.

28:48Ashley Flowers:And he's because he's saying it, he's proving it. And that's really the only proof we have. And in this sort of culture, that is a lot of times all there is and enough.

28:58Brit Prawat:I. Yeah. So, like, and we'll get to this a little bit later because we it kind of gets revealed, I think, in episode two or three that, like, the structure of their church is just like. Oh, I have that written down already. Bro, it's a business. Like, you own a business.

29:12Ashley Flowers:Yeah, because we're going to get ahead of ourselves. But yes, essentially. And I can talk more a little bit to that as well when we get there.

29:19Brit Prawat:Yeah, so it's not like there's this, like, this body of people who have decided that you are—God has told them. God told no one but you that you—

29:28Ashley Flowers:And, like, maybe there are people in your life who have supported that, like, feel of calling. That would have been his father. Which we can talk about later. Which I will get to in the documents. But like there are likely like people affirming that like feel of calling on his life. But like as far as like were there like things he – boxes he had to tick to get there, I would guess not really.

29:48Brit Prawat:So obey those who have authority. God only gives authority. A wife should always honor and respect her husbands. And he basically is like – and it's not just honor or respect because what all these become about is – Sex. Sex. If you're not fulfilling your husband, someone else is going to. I don't know when it is that he, I think it's in this one. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you, like, don't meet the needs of your husband, Satan's going to come and give him 20 things by the end of the day. And I'm like, wait, does Satan not come normally? Or it's like, and I think later he basically is like, but then you don't have the self-control to, like, turn Satan away.

30:23And I'm like, bro, that's, you're a grown-ass man.

30:26Ashley Flowers:But also, like, putting the mindset in, like, but you're a child of God, so shouldn't you? Like, by your own teaching, you actually should have that power. Well, not if your wife doesn't have sex with you that day. So, I just, like, this is what he is telling. And, again, we didn't grow up in a world where this was, like, that crazy to hear. No, and again, like, coming back to this is a tiny little grain of sand that is horrible amongst a bunch of stuff that is completely, like, good is, like, a stretch. but like benign right like not imminently harmful and the other stuff yeah the other stuff is like

31:06Brit Prawat:oh that kind of makes sense so like this he wouldn't just slip in some weird shit yeah he's a pastor and like episode two really becomes about what he's like forcing her to do to meet his sexual needs because i think the whole episode is titled helpmate which i had never heard before

31:24Ashley Flowers:oh it's what it's like it could be a translation for like literally genesis and adam and eve like Like in like the helpmate or helpmeet is like what like in some translations is what Eve is to Adam. Like it goes back to like the very core of like humanity in like how like biblical people in church. I don't want to say biblical scholars because there's like a lot of debate about it. But like it is in translations as like the wife is a helpmate or a helpmate. And like that is the core of humanity and what partnership is in a lot of translations and in a lot of denominations. and non-denominational churches is like that is the wording and that is a thought process and that is all the way back to the very first book of the bible uh i was a pastor's wife for a long time guys oh yeah do people know that i feel like maybe this is a good time i guess i didn't i'm like i obviously i've known you for 38 years wait you want to give like a quick quick history Sure.

32:30Ashley Flowers:Ashley and I grew up in the same church. The church that we grew up in, my dad had been going to since he was 16. So I, like, grew up. My dad grew up in that church.

32:37Brit Prawat:My dad was an associate pastor, which, like, again, this was, like, what I would consider a mega church.

32:42Ashley Flowers:Especially in, like, the 80s and 90s. Yeah.

32:45Brit Prawat:I mean, they had televangelists. They were in other countries. They were, like.

32:49Ashley Flowers:There was a television network. Our church sat, like, over 2 ,000 people. Yeah.

32:53Brit Prawat:And so, yeah, your parents were deep in it. My dad worked there. I lived on the property of the church. Yes. Yeah, naturally.

33:00Ashley Flowers:My mom was a worship leader my entire childhood. My dad was like head usher. I started on a worship team when I was 11 and then was on a worship team essentially until I left the church when I was like in my late 20s. I met my husband there. Justin grew up with us as well. His family started going there when he was like two. So we all grew up together. We were on a worship team together. I thankfully cannot sing so you'll never get a picture of me on stage let's get pictures of you guys working together I was like oh no no no no she wasn't there no no I like you still have like the little bit of the snobby worship team in you we're like no no no no she's not on the team um but we our church went through a lot of turmoil around our high school years I there were church splits there were pastors leaving there was different versions of like the church we grew up in.

33:52Ashley Flowers:I dabbled in a little bit of all of them. I was gone. You were gone. I was out. Justin and I got married also really young and we started going to a different church. We stayed there until I was like 29, I think, 28 or 29. Left for a lot of different reasons. But while we were there, I was also a worship pastor there. He became ordained and he was an associate pastor there for, I think, four or five years. And so for four or five years, he was a pastor. I was a worship leader. I was a pastor's wife. We like Justin, you guys. Justin's cool. Justin's really cool. We're good now. We're all good. We're good now.

34:34Ashley Flowers:We're safe. We're safe. But like I so I as recently as legitimately 10 years ago like was I could close I can like close my eyes and put myself in Solid Rock Church because I went to a church that was like based on like the videos and pictures that I've seen like not that far off. Like this honestly like the stage looked really similar to the one that I was on most recently like the size of the church looked really similar.

35:00Brit Prawat:um the the comparisons especially as i get into like the structure and like what happened is kind of wild so it's not like i i i think what i was seeing in there and why i felt so like oh my god i like i was in this church it's because of things that happened that you don't even know about yeah it's a one for one just even the structure and like the i mean kind of unbelievable oh also speaking of this is back to the like you're your own authority you were the one who just told me So the, like, head of our church, like, founder of our church was a, like, doctor, whatever, whatever. Yeah. An honorary doctor, yeah.

35:35Yeah. And you were like, you know he wasn't, like, he didn't actually have, like, a PhD or anything. And I was like, wait, what? You're like—

35:41Ashley Flowers:It was, like, a couple of years ago. She's like, so doctor wasn't a—because, like, we also called him doctor. Yeah. Like, all the time. And you're like, so doctor wasn't a doctor? And I was like, girl, where did you—where did you see he went? Yeah, he made his own Bible college and made himself a doctor. And I was like, you gotta be freaking kidding me. Wait, how did we? Because I went off on like a tangent about Bible translations and then had to tell people that I. Help me. Yeah.

36:07Brit Prawat:So in this episode, the next wild part that we got. So all this is like very much focused on like her meeting his sexual needs. Do you want to talk about the testosterone?

36:20Ashley Flowers:This pissed me off on so many levels, including like as a vocalist and a worship leader. Like she's like on stage. She's struggling. She's losing her voice. Her hair is falling out. And everyone's like, oh, she's just like going through it.

36:33Brit Prawat:Well, because also it's like I'm on, you know, I'm on some meds. And we know he has been very open about like, oh, she has these mental health struggles. I'm sure she was too. And, you know, we all know she had been committed by him before. And so you kind of think, and I think they do this strategically in the documentary. You like think you're like, oh, it must be had to do with all that. I don't know what, I don't know what medication she was on.

36:54Ashley Flowers:At some point in time, like some of the medications, like she's concerned about weight gain. And like she's feeling self-conscious because of some of the medication she's on. You're like, oh, OK. And then you see her lose her voice. And then someone that was on the team with her and one of her close friends was like, all of a sudden, like her range was gone. Like when her voice came back, it was like she had a completely different voice. And I was like, I know like when I'm sick, my voice can change and I can lose like especially when I was singing a lot. Like I could lose like a couple of like high notes or low notes, whatever.

37:21Ashley Flowers:No, she lost her range because she was taking testosterone and her voice was like physically lowering.

37:27Brit Prawat:from taking testosterone because he wanted her to take testosterone so she could keep up with him sexually him i like i this is the point where i was like i mean i i hated him throughout but i was like you gotta be like the abuse she at some point is like i am physically sexually emotionally financial like all this type of abuse and i i think it gets lumped into physically but the medical abuse yeah the way that the medical system was used they talk about him like withholding her

38:05Ashley Flowers:meds i was just gonna say like he was it's it's mentioned early when they talk about her initial diagnosis but like he like writes to her and you see like a snippet of that like email or letter or whatever where he's like you know this is a lot for me to bear too you know like i am now Oh, it's his burden for the next 50 to 60 years. I'm responsible for, like, making sure you take your meds. And, like... I didn't ask you. Right. Didn't ask you to do that. But it seems like you're making that your job. And, like, in making that his job, he also uses it as another tool of manipulation and coercion.

38:38Ashley Flowers:And the fact that it's, like... Like, if it's going to be his job, he's going to make it work for him, too. Ugh.

38:45Brit Prawat:So she could do it every day. How many years was she with him? Right. So now he's injecting her with hormones. And this is the point. We skipped this early on because they make a light mention of it. So not only is he forcing her to do this, when he makes a parody song about her losing her voice.

39:10Ashley Flowers:I mean, all the parodies were honestly like incredibly cringe, but that one was especially horrific.

39:14Brit Prawat:Especially when you realize that it's not like she's doing it. Like, it's not like she wanted to do. Like, you forced her to do this thing that she doesn't want to do to do sexual acts she probably doesn't want to do.

39:24Ashley Flowers:To do things that she doesn't want to do and then makes her sing about something she doesn't want to do.

39:27Brit Prawat:And, yeah. And then you have to, like, joke about it because she can't. Like, I—that whole parody song thing was so weird. And don't worry, it comes back again.

39:37Ashley Flowers:Good, good, good. Awesome. So this brings me to text message gate, which is where I got dropped in initially at 9.26 p.m. with a text message from you. Which I have extra stories about.

39:52Brit Prawat:So there is this woman who is a pastor at their church as well. She got brought in when the first affair happened, like with Micah, right? He brings in this other pastor. Pam Hughes. Yeah. The church needs stability. They need somebody who's just like.

40:07Ashley Flowers:Like a seasoned pastor who's going to like help them weather this storm.

40:10Brit Prawat:Usher them through these trying times. And so it seems like she's there for a while. Well, she one day is at home, but it sounds like she has like a work phone, a church phone. And out of nowhere, sounds like this was not a normal thing. The work phone starts blowing up. And she realizes she is seeing a text chain between JP and his best friend, Mark Kaufman. Right. Now, she's like JP is in bed with Micah at the time he's like, I mean, based on like based on the messages. while he's instructing Mark to go, like, pick up this other young woman from the airport because apparently she is coming to see him, which first introduce, what is Mark's role?

41:05Brit Prawat:Like, I mean, we know he's his best friend. He was his best man at the wedding. Right. But I have a lot of questions about Mark, his loyalty to JP, what he's willing, why he's willing to do this. He's someone I'm very interested in. But this is when the other pastor realizes like, oh, my God, this thing.

41:24Ashley Flowers:This thing that I thought had stopped, the reason I came in because it had stopped to fix things has never stopped. Which I this is where I texted you. I was like, I will believe in God again if like all of his energy can be directed into like exposing dirty pastors. Because this is not the first time I've seen something weird like this happen. So there are two other stories, one of them personal. And I don't know if you've ever heard the story. So there is this episode of, and you know I'm obsessed with the podcast Betrayal Weekly. Oh, yes, yes.

41:57Brit Prawat:So there is, oh, shoot. Hang on. I got to find her name. There is an episode that I'm obsessed with. I've listened to it like three times. Oh, Tracy is the episode from September of 2025. And her whole betrayal story is about this church in the South in like the 90s. And Tracy's a fake name. You don't get the real names. But it's I call it the Angel Nathan story because her story has to do with basically like she finds out her husband, who is the pastor, was like having this affair because this anonymous Angel Nathan starts sending people in the congregation like letters. And he starts out with the pastor.

42:35Brit Prawat:He's like, you need to admit to this. Like, come clean to your congregation. And like, we're good. Otherwise, I've got recordings of you and this other woman that I'm going to release. and angel nathan does so like it's another one of these like how did we get this this next one is less exposing pastors yeah i have so many thoughts on that less exposing pastors and so when my dad worked in a church in south carolina oh interesting brief time in our life we lived in south carolina my there was like this like freak thing where someone in the church was like talking much shit about my dad but like the the uh like the phone lines got crossed or something?

43:14The machine, the voicemail machine started recording and like it recorded the whole thing. So I don't know what like magical stuff is going on, but there is someone. It's like the

43:24Ashley Flowers:opposite of you messing everything tech up. God is here to like actually make tech work weirdly. He's like, not in my house. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So I am like all for this. But so this is when she, this is when the other pastor finds out like, oh, you are full of shit.

43:42Brit Prawat:Like you've done a great job at putting on the show, making people think that you are sincere and none of it has been real. She can like see through the mess. And I don't know what's unclear is like how many affairs he's had over the years. Because it's not just one or two based on. every implication in the entire documentary yes and keep touching my little my cute little papers back here it's starting to scare me it seems like there is a lot happening and this is just this is like it's not like at first i think it's easy to believe like oh he's got these two lives that are conflicting right he's he's as he says struggling with lust or whatever and what you I think see as you get into episode two and then episode three is it really feels like this entire church it's not a guy a guy who's conflicted the church and the organization all of that feels like it is made to allow him to just be a deviant right I was gonna say because this is

44:53Ashley Flowers:the part that like I had made some notes on because the pastor who like gets this magical mystical spiritual sink she does what I think anybody in that position would do and she calls the elders of the church which like the elders would be like in theory not necessarily a governing body but like a body of people in the church who are like represent the people of the church yes and I think she says like they are the they are representing the congregation like they are the ones who like in churches that I've been in like they've been the ones who have been like called to like hey like we think this pastor should step down we're gonna have like a congregational vote about it or whatever and like they're the ones who kind of act in a way as a governing body different churches have set up different ways denominations specifically have like boards and actual governing bodies non-denominational again kind of a free-for-all but like I know I was like wait it's Not just one guy.

45:52Ashley Flowers:Like, I thought my version of church didn't have a governing. Well, I mean, one of our churches had like a board, but it was all wink. It was like all people colluding with each other to a certain extent until they stopped. Anyway, but this one, like these elders, while they were like representatives of the congregation, were not a governing body in that they had zero power. They were just like. For sure. Essentially. Like not even to support the pastor, just to make it look like he had a governing body almost. Right.

46:22Brit Prawat:It's to like – it's to make – it's why it's like it's bananas to me. And now we're getting into like financials and stuff. But like when I started Season of Justice, so like the nonprofit has to submit its financials like every year to be a nonprofit. Like you have to know where your money is coming from, exactly where it's going to. Like how are you using your funds? How much of the funds are just sitting there? Who's getting paid what? What are your expenses? All of that is known. It is wild to me that is not necessary for churches. As a congregant who is tithing, I assume, like giving time the way they use volunteers, I would want to know.

47:02Brit Prawat:And I don't know why more people don't kind of demand this of their churches, especially these mega churches. Where is it going?

47:09Ashley Flowers:I would like to, as vaguely as possible, remind you that the first time our church went through something major, it was because people didn't want those things to come to light.

47:19Brit Prawat:Wait, I didn't realize that. Really?

47:22Ashley Flowers:Yeah, like people were. A governing body was saying that the church essentially was not functional at the size that it was for like the space that it was in and like the staff that it had, which like obviously affects you quite a lot or would have affected you quite a lot. And when they asked, like, OK, like, what does that number need to be? Like, can we have like a financial campaign where we can tell the members where we are and like let them know that this is the state that the church is in? That was not something that everyone was comfortable. No, being being publicized. Interesting. There was a lot of other things that went into that.

48:04Ashley Flowers:But like that was like something that contributed to like why the pastor that we had at the time no longer was at the church. And like we can talk about that more with like actual names and stuff, but like not on mic.

48:19Brit Prawat:I mean, I knew it was about money and stuff, but like I thought it was a. Yeah. OK.

48:25Ashley Flowers:Follow up conversations. Yeah. So like off mic. But that's kind of like what I was like so surprised and frustrated and not surprised at all about when she did go to the elders and was like, hey, this guy's going off. Fix it. And they're like, we can't do anything. Hands are tied. Yeah.

48:44Brit Prawat:Sorry. Too bad. So sad. Now. Then we so we get into this idea that like, OK, she's like, well, I'm out. Yeah. Church is still his. Still yours. What is he doing with this church? What is he doing as far as affairs go? Now, I don't know. We have no idea who this young woman was who was coming into town to meet him. Because she's coming from an airport, I assume it is not— She's not from around here. —Susie Skinner, who we will talk about next. Yeah. So Susie Skinner is his next alleged affair. Susie, of course, married.

49:22Ashley Flowers:And in the congregation.

49:23Brit Prawat:And in the congregation. She starts going to the church. It doesn't sound like her husband was really going to the church. I don't know how much autonomy her husband had. Right. So they met because he was in physical therapy and she met him.

49:41Ashley Flowers:He had had an accident where he had lost a lot of mobility. Wheelchair bound? Wheelchair bound. He hired her or they met in physical therapy or she was helping him in some way and they hit it off and got married.

49:54Brit Prawat:Yes. So she decides to start going to this church. And again, it might be one of those things where he comes sometimes or whatever, but it seems like she was really, really involved. She was really involved, yeah. And this is the affair, like, Micah clearly finds out about this and gives JP multiple ultimatums, multiple chances to end it, which she's telling people he does not. and I don't think they were being secretive about it because right like Micah's brother ends up catching them he says in the documentary where they're like holding hands and he's like oh like he like confronts them and because they're not being secretive somehow it gets back to Susie Skinner's husband Chris yeah and he also like again they're not being secretive what what he says I think she in the documentary is that she thinks that the pastor has a crush on her So I don't know what she's framing.

50:48Brit Prawat:I don't know what he has experienced.

50:49Ashley Flowers:But at the same time, Chris's sister is in the documentary and she's like he's feeling like his care is like. Oh, yeah. Is like lacking. He's not getting showered as much.

51:00Brit Prawat:Like Susie is clearly distracted by something at that time. And so he makes it a point to go to the church one Sunday, confront the pastor, basically like leave my wife alone. and I don't know it doesn't say exactly how long but like weeks a month and we also don't know what happened when he went to the church we get nothing about that we just know that he his plan was to go to the church and confront JP which I have a feeling the only people who would be in that room JP him if they allowed their wives Micah's no longer here to talk about it and Susie isn't

51:38Ashley Flowers:going to talk about it for reasons we'll get to anyway so we know that chris at least has intentions to go confront jp and at some point in time after he states that intention whether he makes it to church talks to him whether what that conversation is regardless after that point

51:54Brit Prawat:he dies how does he die if he drowns at the bottom of his apartment complex or like community swimming pool. He's in his wheelchair and it goes in by some accident, by some intention. The foul play is not suspected in his case. But this was the second text message I sent. This is the second text message you sent us. Well, I said, JP was first at the scene, the first people to show up. the first people that Susie called. JP and Micah together.

52:33Ashley Flowers:Yeah.

52:33Brit Prawat:But they show up before Chris's family has any idea that he's died. Which I get, it's the pastor of your church. That's what, I mean.

52:43Ashley Flowers:And that's the thing that I like kind of butted up against once I watched it, reading your text was like, I don't not get it in that environment. Where like, I would a thousand percent still call my family, But I think my family's pastor, someone of comfort, someone of like outside the circle, but close enough for like guidance. But I don't know if the one but like the pastor that your husband just confronted because that's where I get hung up on it because that's different. Yeah.

53:14Brit Prawat:This is where when Mads first was like, hey, I think maybe we should cover this case because I'll give everyone I think already knows that. Spoiler alert in episode three, Susie Skinner and JP get married. Yeah. I was like, so you're telling me that her husband dies and his wife die and now they're married and and everyone's OK with it. And Mads is like, you got it, girl. It's like, OK, OK. So we kind of get it. They touch on it so briefly. And I had been reading some articles and stuff like that dug into his death a little bit. And it was like, I guess he had been like supposedly, allegedly making complaints to the community about like there not being like proper access for people like in wheelchairs to be able to get to the pool.

54:04Brit Prawat:Why the pool? Why that way? Was it an accident? Was it intentional because he's not being taken care of? He feels like the one thing he has is like no one knows. As far as I know, I don't believe he left a note or told anyone. So we're left to just, it's just another strange thing in a case full of strange things.

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56:27Brit Prawat:The strangest thing of all, though, was the service about him, which I don't know if it happened before or after he died.

56:35Ashley Flowers:Right. So it's kind of confusing the documentary because they cut it really close to the funeral service for Chris. Yeah. Like, it's not part of it. The stage is completely different. He's wearing a different outfit. I think it was a different service. I don't know if it's, again, before or after. But we don't know when it was. Yeah. You want to see what he says? I don't have the direct... Oh, I do. I just have hot mama quote on my notebook. Yeah.

56:59Brit Prawat:If this guy can get this hot mama in a wheelchair, you have no excuse. I literally wrote, what?

57:08Ashley Flowers:Like, like, I think that's the moment when me and Alyssa, I literally just like paused and I was like, let's just sit with that for a minute. What? Maybe that was the moment that he was like, I think this guy might be coming for my wife. Like, especially if, again, we don't know when that happened. in time, especially if that happened prior to Chris's death. So also, like, you don't want people to be self-deprecating, but like, you're being a super... Yes. A super... I can't.

57:43So I don't think he's hiding anything. Like, again, if you're looking for it, I think that it's...

57:49Brit Prawat:For Isaac, that we can see. I think it's pretty obvious what's going on. And so this is when Micah gives him yet another ultimatum but she doesn't leave she does this contract which I find heartbreaking because this happens all the time I've seen this happen and I don't really understand I think like I so she basically says like makes this list where it's like hey if any of this stuff happens.

58:19Ashley Flowers:I'm out.

58:19Brit Prawat:I'm out. I know she told him that before. If you do it again, I'm out. The line gets crossed. The line gets crossed.

58:27Ashley Flowers:Well, I mean, honestly, the expectation is if you are in a committed relationship with someone. That's your promise. And you have like shared goals and outcomes for the relationship. None of that needs to be set.

58:37Brit Prawat:Yes.

58:38Ashley Flowers:That's just the expectation and like the social contract between two people who love each other.

58:44Brit Prawat:But it's like this list of five things that's like if any of this happens again like the first thing is like you know she gets the house um he promises to go on marriage retreats they're going to do counseling weekly he's going to honor her in any way with anything anytime it says he'd even be willing to adopt a kid if that's what she wants smiley face i saw that the the thing i the thing i can appreciate about what she was probably trying to do is one of the ways she was being controlled was financially. If she left as a pastor's wife who had been in the church since she was 18, who had no career outside of the church, she was financially destroyed.

59:24Brit Prawat:She had nothing. So this point number one, where it's like, I want something written down. I mean, this document wouldn't have counted, but like, I think she felt this was some kind of protection for her. And so like I am sympathetic to that because I think part of me at first when I was like, what's a fucking piece of paper? He doesn't care about your piece of paper marriage certificate. He doesn't care about any of that. Why do this? I think it's really easy to be that. But I'm like, she's trying. I think she knows it's going to happen again. And I think what she's trying to do

59:55Ashley Flowers:is build herself any sort of life raft she can.

59:59Brit Prawat:Yes. For afterwards. Because she knows it's going to happen again. She knows it's going to be hard. And I think everything she was like scared of and anticipated is ended up like coming to fruition oh um this is the moment too where you get that like weird um video of them in the car where he's like speaking in third person and he's

1:00:19Ashley Flowers:like out of third person by the way i like i alissa was like why was he speaking in third person when we watched it together and i was like huh yeah and then when i watched it again i was

1:00:27Brit Prawat:like not all the time because he's like somebody the first lady of the church and she's like who's the first lady he's like you're the first lady and i was like she and he's like she loves the pastor i was like what is happening right now bizarre i don't even know what that was to me that was a little bit like the crying on the grass video where i was like actually can we talk about that more yeah i was like i need i would love if someone could post the whole video drop give us some context of like when this happened what like yeah anyway i don't know and i don't know if it's in that video or somewhere else, but like we get this idea.

1:01:00Brit Prawat:And again, this is him being the victim. And I think he became an expert at manipulating the people around him, but like only in that bubble, like the congregation, the people who like had his same worldview, a worldview that he built, but he makes himself the victim because, you know, why would you do this? Like you have everything. And he's like, I was scared you were going to leave me. Somehow it's like her fault that he continues to do these things. To make her want to leave. Yeah. And I like I only reiterate it because I think this is such a common tactic with abusers is to make themselves the victim over.

1:01:40Brit Prawat:And I actually think they do see themselves as the victim.

1:01:45Ashley Flowers:yeah maybe not carte blanche maybe not everybody but like i think a large part percent of them for sure yeah like i i don't i think there are people who are just blatantly bullies and they know it but i think there are other people who i like the best way i can describe it is like lie so much they start they start losing the truth like they no longer see the reality of like who is and is not the victim. Their reality is completely broken by like the lies that they have not only told other people, but they've told them so many times that they've begun to believe the lies of themselves.

1:02:20Brit Prawat:In that video, she's like, what would you do to like get me back or keep me? And I thought his answer was so interesting. He says that I would put myself in a psych ward until they release me. And I was like, oh, to you, that's the worst possible punishment. the thing that you've already done to her yet that is the thing and i was like how telling the thing that you keep doing is the thing that you say is like i would do i would do anything to get you back i would even put myself in a psych ward because my god can you imagine so the rest of the episode really is again we're diving into like his insatiable sexual appetite

1:03:07Ashley Flowers:And I would like to point out that we also hear a lot of these stories from Micah's friends, which, again, like I would like to stress this is huge, especially the stories that she that like they tell towards the end of this episode, which are harrowing in a way that I was not expecting.

1:03:25Brit Prawat:I was not prepared for it. Like, we get a lot more of his, like, preaching in this, too. I have a quote. He says, there's incredible danger in unmet needs. A fantastic marriage is simply this. My needs are being met today. Everything is about, like, his needs being met. When your husband wants sex, God does not send an angel from heaven to take care of that. Like, basically, it's like, it's your freaking job. And he says the sin that has the most horrifying results in your life is sexual immorality. and he says denying sex leads to sexual immorality. So like denying sex leads to one of the greatest sins.

1:04:00Brit Prawat:Oh, and this is where he was like, don't deny sex and then Satan won't be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control. And then, oh, he's like, a man doesn't want to be rejected more than once unless you repent for it. His heart gets hard. And I was like, boo, your hard heart is not the hard thing of you that I'm worried about right now. like what is happening no totally and then my last quote from this like these like sermons is when he was like what he said for now at least for now the only reason a man would not want to touch or hold a woman is that man because he doesn't like her the only reason he doesn't like her her mouth it's because of her mouth girl we talk for a living get

1:04:51Brit Prawat:I was shocked. Like, I think that up until this point, when we talk about the sexual abuse, I was thinking the abuse of him demanding four times a day, five times a day is sometimes what they talked about every single day. And if not with her, then someone. And that's terrible abuse.

1:05:08Ashley Flowers:But what is described next is that he basically forces her into encounters with random people. That he pays those people, whether that's touching her. One of her friends describes, like, him paying someone to finish on her. And, like, the way she said that Mike described it was, like, she didn't have enough, like, soap in the world. There was nothing she could do to make herself feel clean after that.

1:05:35Brit Prawat:In the documentary, they show her, like, journal writings. And one time she says, at one point, he picked up a couple of unhoused people for a threesome. It's like this was about degrading her, controlling her.

1:05:48Ashley Flowers:I was just about to say, like, when I was watching with Alyssa, I was like, this is not inherently sexual for him anymore. This is him exerting his control and his power and showing her how much he can do to her. And she has she can do nothing about it.

1:06:07Brit Prawat:And a lot of we move into episode three and we get this like a little bit of backstory that leaves so many questions to be answered.

1:06:16Ashley Flowers:That pile, right?

1:06:18Brit Prawat:We'll come back to the pile. But there is this allegation that like maybe JP was abused by his father. And that is what again, when it comes to like him being a victim, like that is what has caused him to be the way that he is. And so we hear that, like, his father, who was also a pastor, had gotten into some trouble maybe in the past. But it was, like, very, very glossed over. Like, it was a quick, like, snippet in the show. And then they kind of moved on. So it's one of the things that I, like, dug into more later. But really, episode three is about her leaving, which we know is the most dangerous time in a person who's being abused life.

1:07:00Brit Prawat:We get a little bit of the timeline. This finally brings us up to the actual day. And by this point, she has moved out. Now, what I found out is that she had apparently threatened divorce before or maybe even filed. But then he convinced her to undo it, which is interesting because of some of the asset stuff and what was happening. Convinced her to undo it. then he goes to this other period where the the stalking the harassment doesn't stop i mean this is we're finding out that he is putting tracking devices on her he's following her slashing her tires slashing her tires and again like the you know there's like i think 53 calls at one point i mean it is non-stop she ends up moving out she's going to live with somebody else he has her committed again and at this time they're kind of vague in there like they reference like oh he's like taking her stuff like maybe he's oh he's posting as her on social media to make it seem like hundreds of pictures they say of them together making everything seem like beautiful and wonderful and like creating this image and they don't really talk about the other stuff like what was he doing with her stuff why did he take her stuff like in the documentary as i was watching i was like oh this is just about control i think it was about something else that i'll get to But he has her committed.

1:08:23Brit Prawat:She gets out again. Because it sounds like the doctors even realize, like, this is more of like a marital. Which I, that's what I, again, when I go back to like, what is this 1856? Like, back in the day when you're like, oh, my wife's hysterical. Just like lock her away. How?

1:08:37Ashley Flowers:And like, you might talk about this later, but like in the documentary, they do confirm that she does get a diagnosis of a form of bipolar. Correct?

1:08:46Brit Prawat:correct this is what i was like a little i think so because i want to say there is at least one

1:08:52Ashley Flowers:medical document that they show in the documentary that states that but what i don't know i don't know

1:08:57Brit Prawat:like how what that document is i know that's where i was that's where i i am always so cautious especially in something like this of like oh we saw one shot so many times you can if someone gives you a medical history to say this person has bipolar and and and that is not verified now she's in these facilities which should be verifying.

1:09:17Ashley Flowers:I mean, on the flip side, like, I'm adopted, my kids are adopted. Medical forms are a lot of fun for us because, like, I'm sure there are things in my medical history that I simply do not know about that can never be verified. And I just have to fill the form out as best as I know. And, like, that's how it is for my kids, too. And on the flip side, like, you can also write that there are issues when no issues exist.

1:09:37Brit Prawat:And that's where I, like, without digging into her medical records, the way that her family spoke on the documentary, it seemed like they believed there was something. They also supported some sort of diagnosis. Yeah, but they're very open in that what led her to that? And what are the contributing factors that if she had these diagnoses led to it? You get it. So this brings us to she filed, she dismissed. She is now done, done, super done. And this is where we meet my new hero. Regina Ward. Regina Ward.

1:10:16i also loved her i'm so glad she's here i think everyone loves regina ward because she is her lawyer and we get her and she's like uh-uh i don't like anyone that tries to take

1:10:31Brit Prawat:advantage of i think she said the weak the meek the poor and i was like she's her divorce attorney and she's not putting up with anything and what she says regina ward heart heart heart i said She made the hero well. So she, on behalf of Micah, files. And JP gets served on April 25th. Two days later is when Micah dies. And the timeline, this is the crux of the case. It's like, everyone, did she do it? Her family alleges in the documentary, like, they don't think that someone else wasn't involved. Like, they cannot let that go. but everyone the police have ruled it a suicide the um sheriff's office put out this like nifty powerpoint proof powerpoint that that has been shared with everyone that in their eyes explains everything so what we have is that day she's supposed to go to work at like noon that's what diana says in the documentary diana's the woman she's living with what i would love is like verification of that what time did her shift start because what I find so interesting is that why put on your uniform?

1:11:48Ashley Flowers:If you're not going to, and like she immediately does not go to work. She leaves at the time, and you can correct me at any point in time. She leaves at a time where it's like, oh, depending on how far away her work is, that's an appropriate time to show up for a 12 o 'clock shift in her uniform that we see on a doorbell cam.

1:12:08Brit Prawat:Leaves her apartment. 12-12, she pulls into the pawn shop. This pawn shop is where the gun is purchased. Now, what I think is interesting is I mapped her apartment to the pawn shop. It's a 9-10 minute drive, but it's 34 minutes before she pulls in. So I don't know where she was. Was there another stop? Did you map where she worked? I didn't do that. Yeah, did she? Just go to work first and then? But it's weird. So but she gets she pulls in. She's at the counter. I mean, she knew exactly what she was going in for. She's at the counter at 1213. 1234, she's leaving the lot. Now, again, I don't know.

1:12:50Brit Prawat:Did it take time? I assume they have to look at her. I hope they had to look at her ID to buy this gun. But like at 1234, she has to leave the lot. At 106, we pick her car up on a flock camera and she's like driving in the direction of where she'll ultimately be found. so it's 40 minutes from dicks to where the flock camera is 127 she's at a gas station and that like all kind of lines up and then it's like 39 to 44 minutes from the gas station to the park so i was like trying to do the math of like when she leaves the gas station like does she go directly to the park yeah and it it she should arrive if she goes right away and And this is like, per the other calculation, she's driving a little bit faster.

1:13:37Brit Prawat:But if she goes exactly like the speed limit, she should be getting to the park. And it takes a five-minute walk from where her car was to the coordinates where she was found. She should be at the coordinates where she's found at 221. The 911 call comes in at 254.

1:13:53Ashley Flowers:There's time.

1:13:53Brit Prawat:Now, there is a witness who has come forward or came forward later that was like, I heard crying before I heard a shot. But we know the shot comes after she calls 911. So, like, I just, again, there's, like, missing time. Is this I'm sitting in my car? I'm building up the courage. Contemplating. I'm sitting with what I'm about to do. Or is it something else? Her family has wondered. It's what they, like, say in the documentary. Like, was she lured there? Because also, why go?

1:14:27Ashley Flowers:It seems like I think something that they say in the documentary is, like, why here? Like, why would you go all the way out here so far that you have to call 911 to make sure people know where you are?

1:14:39Brit Prawat:I thought what I thought was interesting was it was like right over the state line. Like, it's the North. She's in North Carolina, which causes maybe jurisdictional issues. But I like if what you want is for your family to find you and for this to be easy. Why there?

1:14:55Ashley Flowers:Because she does take the steps to help her family find her. Like, she calls 911 so that her coordinates are like tracked.

1:15:01Brit Prawat:You hear her voice on the 911 call. She sounds calm. Episode one opens with it. Starts with it. I looked the most of the call that I could find, the most amount, was like two minutes and 30 seconds. So it also isn't just like, hey, here I am about to do this. Hang up. It's two minutes of her trying to figure out where she was. And at the very end, she says what she's about to do. And apparently hangs up before they can, like, they don't hear a shot or anything like that. Now, they bring up some stuff in the doc that I thought was interesting, which is like they find her body away from the shell casings.

1:15:37Brit Prawat:They also mentioned two spent shell casings, which I can't find a ton of stuff about. But I'm like, the witness here is one shot. She has one shot. Like, she didn't shoot herself twice. Right. Where did this other one come from?

1:15:52Ashley Flowers:Is it like, obviously, then you have all the questions. Like, are they casings from the same type of ammunition? Like, do they belong to the same gun? That is not in the police's PDF. The other thing, what is in here, I actually want to show you, is a picture of the inside of her car.

1:16:16Brit Prawat:And there was something that stood out to me. The same thing with, like, why are you putting on your work uniform if this is your plan for the day? she also packed her lunch

1:16:31Brit Prawat:it's a sandwich in a ziploc like that's a fresh sandwich in a ziploc bag isn't that weird that's really weird these are the things that her family it's not making sense to them so naturally when this happens her family is immediately suspicious because her sister one One of her sisters says that Micah said, if I am found with a bullet in my head, I didn't do it. JP did. She is found with a bullet in her head. That that is like, why say that and then do that, too? So they have a ton of questions knowing that she the two days before had filed for divorce. The church was going to break apart. Everyone said if the church broke apart again, everything that he had built, it was it was done, done.

1:17:14Ashley Flowers:This is like a very on Crime Junkie question, but they didn't address it in the doc that JP alibi. Like, I'm sure this is like somewhere in like the PowerPoint, but like they don't touch on that at all in the documentary, which I found really strange. And like it took everything in my being not to Google because I knew you were already working on this.

1:17:36Brit Prawat:So they don't talk about it at all, except for when the reporter from News Nation has like the one sit down with him. And he's like, I was at like the soccer game, the sporting thing. Like every 100 people saw me there that Saturday. Well, in this, his timeline that we get from the police PowerPoint, evidence PowerPoint, is from Friday the 26th to Saturday the 27th. So Friday, he goes to Charleston, South Carolina for this sporting event. They say this is supported by eyewitnesses. So his claim that a bunch of people are there.

1:18:09Ashley Flowers:Checks out.

1:18:10Brit Prawat:On Friday, though.

1:18:11Ashley Flowers:Yeah.

1:18:11Brit Prawat:A bunch of people are there. And on Saturday, so this is the day that she buys the gun and goes up to the park. What they have, the only thing that they've included is that they have him driving back to Myrtle Beach where they live. And they have flock cameras of his truck. truck now if you look at those like pictures the windows are like black i cannot see anything now did i meticulously map the coordinates and the time for every single flock camera thing i did okay i did i figured you would and where sleep last night did you where this truck was is nowhere like it wasn't near the park like he couldn't have gotten the last flock sighting of The truck was at 2.22 and it's too far away to get to the park.

1:19:01Brit Prawat:Okay. So the truck is not there. What I find strange is that if they're saying he has such a solid alibi, what they're not including for Saturday, the actual day that matters is any phone data, any like was anyone with him on that Saturday in that truck? When did he get home? Who saw him after? Like, to me, this is all really important stuff. And even beyond him, the other people connected to him.

1:19:34Ashley Flowers:Yeah.

1:19:35Brit Prawat:Like, he is the only person talked about in this document, which I find interesting.

1:19:41Ashley Flowers:We've mentioned him a few times and had questions, but, like, where is Mark?

1:19:47Brit Prawat:And I do think that, like, Mark, not Mark, whatever, there were other people who Micah felt like she was being followed by. Like, it wasn't just JP. So I think this is meant to tell everyone, like, there's nothing to see here. But to me, it's like, I have a lot more questions. It also doesn't include is, like, Micah's stuff. Because what it shows is, oh, she, you know, like, looked how to get to the pawn shop. She looked up national parks near me, but it doesn't say what time those searches happened. It doesn't say what other things happened around there, like what calls she was making, who she was in communication with.

1:20:27Ashley Flowers:Or even, like, did she, like, sit in her parking lot, in the parking lot at her apartment, like, where she was staying? Right, where was she for those? Or work when she Googled the pawn shop? Was she still at the pawn shop when she Googled parks? Like, was she at the gas station when she did that? Like, we know that she's in these different places, but are these searches happening at those different places? Or was this, like, a long, plotted-out thing?

1:20:46Brit Prawat:and I think again I think people would say well you know we're just worried about it all the evidence proves it only being her why are we even talking about this well then my question is why was he trying to collect like all her immediately the woman she

1:21:04Ashley Flowers:was living with I loved because she seemed so sweet yes and when as soon as JP called was like I'm just going to come pick up her stuff. She's like, I'm not sure if I'll be home, essentially. And then called her siblings and was like, get over here and get it.

1:21:21Brit Prawat:She's like, I want her Bible. I want her writings, her journals. And that I could make you can write that off as like, oh, that's her husband. He just wants her things. It's when he calls the counselor she had been seeing was like, do you have any notes?

1:21:36Ashley Flowers:Can I get? I was like, that's not a thing you collect. Oh, my gosh. Alyssa, like, paused. She was like, he can't do that because HIPAA. And I was like, I bet you anything she's a biblical counselor. She is. She said it. Which is what it said. And I was like, she could hand them over. And then she's like, well, because I'm a biblical counselor, I don't need notes. And I was like, you know, that works too. But that's when I was like, oh, boo, you're trying. And the way. And then he called. Well, and then we get some of our best quotes from our new hero wall inductee. When he calls. Wait, we got to talk about the sermon first.

1:22:06Ashley Flowers:Yes. Because the second she dies.

1:22:09Brit Prawat:But I want to talk about Regina. He's notified on a Saturday. And on Sunday. He's like, I'm still going to preach.

1:22:16Ashley Flowers:And not only did he preach. He preaches the whole sermon. I didn't. As usual. I didn't realize he didn't tell them till the end. Yeah. And he is acting. Totally normal.

1:22:29Brit Prawat:Totally fine. He's on the piano having the time of his life. They don't worry. Do their entire parody song about. What was it like? not finding something till the middle of your life or like oh in the middle of my life i finally found what i was searching for and i was like what was that and then at the very end he's like

1:22:50Ashley Flowers:we're not gonna have an altar call we're not going to pray with you guys at the end instead i'm going to announce that my wife micah has died it was self-induced i don't want you guys to no questions please ask questions i want you to leave quietly not talk to each other here on the property and like just know that this happened and like this is this is the point and justin graciously reminded me that he was the one who was like have you seen the sermon when this case initially happened this is when i remember seeing this case pop up was like what is he doing because like again like i've been in these services like when there's something to say like you you do have to like time it well but this is bonkers the fact that he was on the stage doing music that morning the fact that he was on stage teaching that morning.

1:23:37Ashley Flowers:I think this also talks a lot to like speaks a lot to like the structure of the church. Like no one was going to tell him he couldn't do this. Yeah. And so he got up and did the entire thing.

1:23:48Brit Prawat:Because he had to get out. He got out his narrative and then he proceeded to do that with everyone. The text messages he was sending people were I mean like people talk about all the time catch a liar when they're like over explaining where he's like she has passed. I've been telling her for months. Like, oh, her family got involved. I'm like, ooh, no one asked.

1:24:07Ashley Flowers:And also there's a moment where like you see him, you see some of the text messages that he's sending to like her friends or like people in their circle. And it's the same. Like he's copy pasting because he can't keep telling different. Like that's the only way he can keep his lies straight. Right. Like it was it was just like so calculated.

1:24:26Brit Prawat:So he is used to manipulating everyone in his circle. Like he can play the victim. him. He has them down. But not her. He cannot do that with Miss Oh.

1:24:36Ashley Flowers:Who, as an attorney, tapes the call.

1:24:39Brit Prawat:Oh my god, I love her so much.

1:24:40Ashley Flowers:And the call is so good. He calls and is like, hey, you were her, I think you were her lawyer, so, and before he could even continue with his bizarre request, she goes, mm-mm, let's stop right there. You probably have the exact quote. I don't. I'm going to paraphrase, but she's like, you don't think she hired me. You know she hired me because you got served divorce papers two days ago. So let's just start off with the truth. Yeah. And that's when I was like, she is my new. I want to be her when I grow up. She is my new hero. And he's like, yeah. You know what? I do recall. I think I did see your name.

1:25:20Brit Prawat:And then he's like, oh, he says, clearly, by the way, you've been talking to me. You've gotten one side of the story. So this is when he's like, I'm going to get her on my side. That does not happen. And so when that doesn't work, he goes into the tears. It's like the same tears that we got on the grass, which distinctly I had this moment where I was like, oh, I've seen this before. And I want to play you a clip because I made myself chuckle. Okay. So this is him to her.

1:26:09So it's like the... Have you seen Win or Lose? No, but you've talked about this show so many times. It's a kid show on Disney that I think is one of the best kid shows that's made in forever. And we get this moment. I need it. Just one second.

1:26:31as soon as i i heard that i was like

1:26:39so he tries the tears the tears don't work he turns those off to be to be clear like coming

1:26:45Ashley Flowers:back to like why he's calling regina ward micah's divorce attorney is because he's like i really need every single thing that she ever gave you supporting why she wants to divorce me. Yes. Like, he's like, just get just why don't you just hand me her file? And she's like, which is an insane thing to think would happen. Like, but attorney client privilege much.

1:27:10Brit Prawat:But yeah, I think he still thought he had a lot of authority because they were still married before she died, which actually did give him a lot of authority. There's been a ton of legal stuff since. Now, luckily, she didn't turn her file over to him. She turned it over to the FBI. Along with, I mean, she downloaded like hundreds. 511 sermons. And that is when I was like, you, I love you. And that's how we get this treasure trove in the documentary and get such real pictures of who Michael was in life, who JP is, what he talks about in his sermons. So it is a little bit how the documentary leaves off is that there is some kind of FBI investigation.

1:27:57Brit Prawat:We hear from people, guests I've been talked to. I do know the FBI got, and I don't know why for sure, but jurisdiction, because we're talking about two separate cases, like it's not surprising to me. and he has now federal charges and those are for for lying to them during the course of their investigation and then for cyber stalking and those are still ongoing because he was just arrested in like december 2025 yeah and they they did a search of his home so again all like computers phones like all of the things that i'm i'm wanting i feel exists somewhere in evidence Yes. Now. Is there anything else that you want to talk about before I get to like my fun things?

1:28:42Ashley Flowers:I don't know if you want to talk about the News Nation sit down where he brings out the binder. Of his evidence? Of evidence, which like evidence for what, sir? There's that weirdness. But it wasn't like, hey, I kept all her medical records. It's like, this is my evidence. And also like putting those things in those plastic sheet protectors is a pain in the ass. He put work into that. I didn't even notice that they were in sheet protectors. They're in like those plastic slips. For me, it was the moment. I hate those things. He does the same thing, right? Where he like tries to cry. But then I love this guy because he's like, what's going on?

1:29:14Like he's like, I'm not going to like call it off just because you're crying. Like we're going to like.

1:29:17Ashley Flowers:Yeah, the guy interviewing him is like, there's something like your face is doing something essentially. But then when he's like. Is there anything you would have done differently? His reaction is so wild. That's a really good question. That's a really good question. That's a really good question. It's anger. And then he goes, I would never involve her family in any of her mental health problems.

1:29:37Brit Prawat:Yeah. Okay. Out of all the things you could have said.

1:29:44Ashley Flowers:I mean.

1:29:46Brit Prawat:And knowing what you did to her.

1:29:50Ashley Flowers:Like the blanket statement of us like, I wish I could have been a safe place for her. I wish I could like you could have done any sort of like blanket generic statement and like no one would have batted an eye. But you come out with that. Yeah, I mean, I could. There's like a million more things I want to talk about. But what I want to talk about more is that stack of paperwork you just picked up.

1:30:14Brit Prawat:Yeah, I want to. So this stuff is known. It's not like I uncovered this. but for length purposes or legal purpose I don't know why Netflix didn't include what I think is a handful of things that I found really interesting so one of the biggest things that I as I was watching this I kept waiting for right like I'm like you get these sit downs with people and I'm like when are we getting his first wife when are we getting out like we get nothing I I understand not having anything about his kids in the documentary. Like they have nothing. A thousand percent. But I'm like, she's like very silent in this.

1:30:55Brit Prawat:So I was like, I mean, either she's, you know, without knowing anything. I was like, is she still like deep in this world? Is she like scared? I'm like, a man like this couldn't have been an ideal husband one moment and then a completely different person the next.

1:31:09Ashley Flowers:And probably isn't like a joy to co-parent with. Yeah.

1:31:12Brit Prawat:So she has filed an affidavit back in 2024. So this is when I think they were working out some like custody arrangements.

1:31:24Ashley Flowers:When in 2024? Because that's also the year that Micah died.

1:31:26Brit Prawat:This is May. So this is she's basically saying this is like right after Micah dies. She's like, I don't feel safe. And some of it is a little bit like, hey, he's getting all these threats, too. Right. I don't want my kids around that. But in doing so, she has to talk about all the concerns that she had. One of the things that I found really interesting is that she started in 2015 as his assistant to pastoral duties, which is the same kind of role that he placed Micah in.

1:31:58Ashley Flowers:Were they already married at the time?

1:31:59Brit Prawat:I don't know the year that they got married. It's not in this document. I'd have to look it up. So in this, she alleges, it says, it's number seven in the affidavit. JP told me that in addition to his affair with Micah, he had employed prostitutes and been sexually inappropriate with several underage female members of our church. He blamed his immoral sexual behaviors on the sexual abuse that he experienced for years by his father, Wayne Miller. She says that when she found out about this, like these minors, she actually went to the police. And they're basically like, nobody's going to believe you because these minors don't want to come forward.

1:32:35Brit Prawat:You're divorced from this guy. You're talking about custody. That's not going to hold up. So she's like, I couldn't do anything. But I did try to report it.

1:32:45Ashley Flowers:I want to pause for a second and be like, minors coming forward with abuse is already incredibly difficult. I feel like I've said this a lot. Everything is very difficult in this circle where your value is placed on your purity, where your value is placed on your body, and how much you are untouched.

1:33:02Brit Prawat:coming forward is it's how they it's how they keep you quiet that was in percent like as it

1:33:09Ashley Flowers:doesn't matter that you didn't want it right as difficult as this is in general in any circle in these circles it is marking yourself unclean unclean it's marking yourself dirty even if you were assaulted and you kicked and screamed like you know whatever they perceive as no you are still

1:33:27Brit Prawat:less than.

1:33:28Ashley Flowers:Yeah. Whether it's said in those words or not, it is heavily implied. And so like, that's devastating.

1:33:34Brit Prawat:She talks about an occasion when she was picking up one of their kids that there were holes in their walls, there were hinges off the doors and pieces of paper taped to the wall with negative affirmations about Micah. Now, he had like sent her texts that were like, oh, I just so you know, Micah punched those holes in the walls.

1:33:52Ashley Flowers:I'm not like losing it or anything,

1:33:54Brit Prawat:But I'm like, oh, did she also write those like terrible things about herself? Doubt it. And she also has in here, when I talk about guns and stuff and knowing that like he was at least using them, there's a point in here where she says that he informed me that he was getting into buying guns and shooting. Then I read something that I thought was interesting. As a convicted felon, he is not allowed to have weapons. However, allegedly, he managed to get a police chief from the church to assist with expunging his record. Further, he was given a special police badge that says pastor. Is that a badge type?

1:34:34Brit Prawat:To utilize if he ever gets pulled over. This is deeply concerning when we want to talk about like a relation he has to authorities.

1:34:42Ashley Flowers:Let's back up. He's a convicted felon.

1:34:46Brit Prawat:Yes. Four. so in 1998 he ran over a woman twice while she was like she had like sand was doing something with sandbags or whatever and so he got in trouble for that and he he has like other charges like when i look at his um like report online there are like like background check or whatever yeah yeah there are like other things too but like that's the big one which i was like i've we did not even touch on in the documentary i did not realize that this is that man history the other thing i did not realize is he was married to ally but and they had their kids he had another relationship i don't know if they were married i don't think so with a woman before that and had another kid who was like a grown man at the time that all of this

1:35:38Ashley Flowers:went down and in right because like just like i want to say they mentioned it in the documentary when Micah and JP got together. I don't know if it was when they got married or not, but, like, the age split was, like, 21 and 36. Yeah, 15. He's, like, 15 years older than her.

1:35:54Brit Prawat:Yeah. So he has a grown son, which I can get to more, but, like, his son has a domestic violence. Like, I found a news article that he was arrested in, like, January of 24 for domestic violence. So also an interesting person that, like, we don't even, not even mentioned anywhere might not have anything to do with anything but not I was surprised to learn it one of the last things that Allison said that I thought was interesting is she says I was married to JP for 16 years although my story and what I lived through with JP is different in some ways many of the details shared with me by Micah because Micah had been like confiding in her and asking for help are so similar to my own experiences with JP that I know she was being truthful.

1:36:40Brit Prawat:So I'm sure there's someone out there who's like, oh, you know, is she making up these stories or was she, as she was trying to get divorced or whatever, and you have Allison who is saying... Who experienced the same thing years and years before. I know you're not lying. Yeah, because what you're describing didn't come out of the blue. Been there, done that.

1:36:56Ashley Flowers:Yeah.

1:37:00Brit Prawat:So she talks about his father, Wayne. Wayne is super interesting. And this goes to like the creation of the church where I told you I saw all like the similarities. So he starts this church in South Carolina. The church ends up going on to have like a television network. It has a Bible college. It has a ministry overseas, which is just like one for one for one.

1:37:29Ashley Flowers:When the church was founded, and maybe you don't know this, was it connected to a denomination?

1:37:34Brit Prawat:Mm-mm. Okay. So one of the things that they bring up when we talk about the structure earlier is this comes up in one of the lawsuits. I know, my only papers. One of the lawsuits that is filed in 2025 is they're like, you'll hear these different entities reference, these like three different church names. They're like, they're all the same thing. They're all owned and controlled by Wayne Williams' dad.

1:37:58Ashley Flowers:I can think of three different names, but that's okay.

1:38:03Brit Prawat:And John Paul. And so a lot of the name changes came out of scandal.

1:38:10Ashley Flowers:Yes.

1:38:10Brit Prawat:Because so he had his first church and there were this big expose where there were these like sexual abuse allegations with young people. And when that happens, this is like the 80s. It's really easy. There's no internet. So they pack up. They move to Myrtle Beach. They call it a different church. They have some congregation come, some new people, and they start over. And then there is another incident in which Wayne exposes himself to an undercover officer.

1:38:41Ashley Flowers:And that's the one that we probably see the article about in the documentary?

1:38:45Brit Prawat:I don't know which one they showed in the documentary.

1:38:47Ashley Flowers:Because there's like a news article where he is named as like... The other one was in the news too because it was like this five-part investigative series that was done. This one seemed like a little bit more like a sting. So that sounds like more like this incident. So he gets in trouble for that.

1:39:02Brit Prawat:And then I don't know when like solid rock becomes a thing. It's a little bit fuzzy to me. But then that's when JP, which I also think is interesting when they were talking about in the documentary, JP becoming a pastor was like, oh, he just wanted to like he's the pastor's son who. Oh, they also had a school, which has someone who went to the school owned by my church. I was like, what in the heck? And the school, they were like, wasn't super accredited. It was, we'll get into that in a second. But his dad has faced, even in recent years, charges for, I think it was like a homeland security. What?

1:39:38Dude, I can't make this stuff up. Hang on just a second.

1:39:44Ashley Flowers:You have like invoices and emails and court docs. This is insane.

1:39:49Brit Prawat:Yes. the Department of United States for the District of the South Carolina Florence Division United States of America. Either way, he ends up pleading guilty to fraud in foreign labor contracting. So basically he was bringing over people from other countries and promising them work within the church and was basically not providing them even minimum wage. They were getting like 25 bucks a day. They didn't have proper like housing and he would basically even like the food was expired, which like don't get me started on that. I know that sounds crazy to people. Do you know how much expired food we had in the church that was just like because it was free?

1:40:29Ashley Flowers:Yeah.

1:40:29Brit Prawat:But don't share the financials to know how much we're making because we apparently need expired food. And he would threaten them that if they. Deportation. Yeah. Yeah. So he is like he is a hot mess in and of himself. There is this 2007 affidavit from his wife that I am dying to find where it is like referenced in different places where she talks about his control.

1:40:55Ashley Flowers:So this would be JP's mom?

1:40:57Brit Prawat:Yeah. And she was like with him for a very long time. But she talks about his control over the family and over the congregation. And I would like love her perspective. So I get a lot of information about the churches that and how it is structured because in 2025, two Jane Does came forward alleging sexual abuse that was allowed by JP and his dad, Wayne, basically in the church.

1:41:32Ashley Flowers:So Wayne and JP weren't the abusers. Yes. They were. Or like someone.

1:41:42Brit Prawat:But like the.

1:41:44Ashley Flowers:They brought this to the church to be handled.

1:41:47Brit Prawat:And JP and Wayne owned the church. I mean, that's the whole problem. But they sued the church, too, because they're like board members. There's no safety checks. You're not doing background checks. Right. You know.

1:41:56Ashley Flowers:There's nothing to like prevent this from happening or to deal with it when this happens.

1:41:59Brit Prawat:History, yet you're just allowing him better access to people. Yeah. And not putting anything in place. So basically, in the Jane Doe number one case, she alleges that she has this encounter with him when she's older with John Paul, where he like sees her, like hugs her, like puts his hand down her pants. And she like confronts, like she pulls him aside after. And she's like, I mean, she's embarrassed. She doesn't want it. And she's like, what was that? And he's like, oh, you know, oh, God, the quote. He brings in God again. He's like, ah, God knows like we sin or some.

1:42:37Brit Prawat:And I'll take that paraphrase. Thank you. And so she says that it like brings back the this repressed memory that she had from when she was 15 at the church and JP was 19. And he got her alone and she alleges he raped her in his truck. But to your point of how that would be viewed by the church, she said she didn't know if anyone would believe her. She was mortified. She was and eventually completely repressed the memory until it came back. So until it came back when she's assaulted again. Correct. So she files that one first and then Jane Doe number two files. so this young woman says that jp was 19 or 20 in 1999 and he was a teacher at the school that the church ran and this is this is where it talks about um how literally they say there were people literally taken off the street and passed off as teachers like they didn't have to have according to this like accreditation or anything like that.

1:43:45Brit Prawat:And so JP at 19 is a teacher in this school. So in the fall of 1999, plaintiff was just 14 years old when her parents like put her in the school. Yeah. Cathedral Hall Academy. It's not a school. It's a trap. Many of the staff were simply members of the church or colleagues with no credentials. And she has this interaction with JP where he's like playing the piano. He asks if she wants to. She declines. And as she's turning to leave, he pulls her into a hug. And she didn't have time to react before his hands moved down her back, past her waist, under her clothing, and touched her bare butt. She's like unsure of what to do.

1:44:24Brit Prawat:She told the teacher. Instead of receiving help, she was sent to Wayne's office. And when she arrived, JP's already there.

1:44:35Ashley Flowers:So just to be clear, like, if she tells a teacher, the teacher is not only colleagues with the person that did this, but is also their boss. Right? Like, a teacher is employed by the school that is owned by the person who assaulted her and his father.

1:44:51Brit Prawat:Well, I don't think, you know, he's still the pastor's son at that point. But yeah, it's all in the family. Yeah. So she gets pulled into the office where Wayne says, quote, you will not lie about my son. And she was forced to write the words, I will not lie about John Paul Miller 5 ,000 times. And then this gets out and she is essentially bullied by everybody. Now, she is a slut. She is this. She is that. And her life is a living hell. She says the horrors of Cathedral Hall Academy were not just physical and sexual. They were psychological. Then this will hit extra close to home. One example she gives is when plaintiff brought a Harry Potter book to school.

1:45:33Brit Prawat:R.W.M. and J.P.M. dragged her into the office. They berated her, called her a servant of Satan, and told her that if she continued down this path, she would be raped by demons. Then right in front of her, they set the book on fire. R.W.M., that's Wayne, then beat her with a Bible and poured water over her head. She was 16 years old. And again, these are allegations. And people wonder why I haven't seen Harry Potter. so he makes a counterclaim to that to jane dore number two and jane dore number one um he basically has a response and has filed a counterclaim saying that these are lies there were apparently social media videos he wanted the judge to like have those be taken down bar anyone from talking about it as far as i can see these are still pending okay now one of the last things that i i want to get to i mentioned was like this idea of why did he take all of her stuff and yes we know where jp was but is jp the only person we should be looking at so one of micah's sisters filed an affidavit and in here she says micah told me that there were people following her keeping track of where she went she thought that mr miller had hired people to follow her mr miller later confirmed this during a sermon i watched now they had kind of like briefly touched on this in the documentary

1:47:04Ashley Flowers:because there's like a moment where they find a tracker on her car and they're like at the police and they see a car pull in and then like whip around and leave.

1:47:13Brit Prawat:Yeah, which might have been him. But this idea that it was people, this doesn't say John Paul, and that he was hiring people too. To me, I don't, sure, I'm glad we know where his truck was. But like, who are these other people that were involved? Who else was in his orbit? And did police thoroughly look at them too? Did the FBI, if we're going to talk about cyber stalking, even if that's the only thing we're talking about, Like who else touched that case? Now, when she had filed for divorce the first time, I don't know what his mindset was. Maybe his narcissistic brain really did want her back.

1:47:54Brit Prawat:But it also seems very calculated because he convinces her to not do it that first time. And then according to her sister's affidavit, she is told by Micah that he starts moving assets. So if she files for divorce and it stays, like right now, she still has those. She's going to get things. While they're still married, he starts moving assets in his name, such as the vehicle. He changed the deed to their house to the church, transferring interest. And he also transferred interest in Crocodile Rocks to one of his sons, which I think is like this restaurant or bar or something. So he's making moves.

1:48:35Brit Prawat:Now, the other thing she says is that prior to her admission to Waccamaw, which I think is the it was the mental health institution where she got institutionalized when she got committed. So prior to her admission, Micah was gathering and sorting the evidence she had to bring an attorney for filing for divorce to support her claims against Mr. Miller. And as to his abuse character, his paramours and associates, he paid off or blackmailed. While at while at the facility, those documents, emails, files, et cetera, were removed from her phone, personal laptop, vehicle and purse and never recovered.

1:49:15Brit Prawat:Further, Micah was unable to access her iCloud account, email, or Facebook profile. Mr. Miller continued using at least one of Micah's accounts, causing any recipient to believe that it was Micah's communications.

1:49:26Ashley Flowers:So... And that's, like, in the documentary to reference, like, where we are in time. That's when she's calling, she calls, like, 911 and is like, hey, my strange, or, like, we're separated. My husband is, I was in the hospital. He's taken all of my stuff. I need, like, can I report the stuff stolen? Right.

1:49:41Brit Prawat:And so to me, that was just like, oh, he took your stuff. It sounds like she was building a case for her divorce. Against him. But again, I don't know what this paying off and blackmail. She was collecting evidence that then disappears because she gets institutionalized. The other thing her sister says is that Micah was intending to participate in additional missions because she did missions trips. She was even planning to live part time in Kenya. Micah recently shipped some of her personal items to Kenya in preparation for her stay there. I understand why the family is so taken aback by this.

1:50:24Brit Prawat:This is the document where she says that she was fearful that she wouldn't make it to the divorce. And she, according to her sister, said, if I end up with a bullet in my head, it was not by me. It was JP. She's making plans. She says this. She's building this evidence against him. That evidence goes missing. Once she dies, he's trying to collect anything else that might remain. It's, I get. I get the questions.

1:50:52Ashley Flowers:I get the questions. I've had questions since I heard about this case. But I feel like the more that I've learned about it, the list of questions has only grown.

1:51:08so what now i don't know his hearing for cyber stalking making false statements to an investigator

1:51:17Brit Prawat:that is set i think right now for october and i think i think a lot of people are going to be watching i know we talked about a ton of like very tough topics so for anyone who is listening or watching, we're going to put a bunch of resources in the show notes, including something on religious trauma, which maybe I should take advantage of. And there's also going to be some information about Micah's law. One of the things that her family is trying to change is how the state of South Carolina views allegations of abuse or harassment within a married couple, because there was a lot of stuff that they felt like police couldn't respond to because of the fact that JP and Micah were married.

1:51:59Brit Prawat:So if you want more information on that, you can check out that in the show notes as well and see how you can support. Crime Junkie is an Audio Chuck production. I think Chuck would approve.

1:52:16Brit Prawat:Hey, Crime Junkies, if you're wondering what to listen to next, I got you. Check out another audio-chuck show, Park Predators. A recent episode is about a couple named Danny and Sue who left for a camping trip in New York's Adirondacks and never made it home. When Danny's abandoned car was found, investigators thought that they were dealing with a missing persons case. But then, another attack happened. And suddenly, the whole investigation became something much bigger. It's one of those cases where every new clue changes what you think you know. For the full story, listen to The Adirondacks on Park Predators wherever you get your podcasts.