EXCLUSIVE: Nancy Guthrie

24:07So obviously the tone has completely changed, right? Yeah. And clearly at this point, if these are true, in week one of this investigation, Nancy Guthrie had died. Now, obviously they're trying to, you know, divert any blame from them. Like, hey, it was her health and we didn't know that. So we're not culpable. Sorry. Sorry. And then goodbye. buried in nature. Now, verbiage, right? Remember the USD, the US dollar, right? This is also a weird way of speaking. She perished shortly after she was taken. She is buried in nature now. It's just a little off. And I believe this may be because the person writing the notes is foreign.

24:51English is their second language. Or they are using like a translator to get their point across. We'll get into that in a second. So now you have ransom note number two that we now know behind the scenes is happening, right? But the FBI and PCSD, they were never revealing what ransom note number two said, just that it was received. But Savannah went on to her social media and said, we've received your note. And at this point now, like there's a very clear tone change in her too. And the retired investigator I talked to said it was very much like a hostage negotiator type tone. You could tell that she had worked with the FBI.

25:28But at this point now, they're pleading to get Nancy back, no matter if it's dead or alive. Yeah. And you can tell at this point that she's like, we'll do anything to bring her home. Like, that became the hashtag was like, bring her home, no matter what. And I just personally watching this happen, like reporting on it, I was doing the job that Savannah would typically do on a massive investigation, right? She is a seasoned anchor, reporter. for her to have to be the story, heartbreaking, like awful. And I could not imagine the position that she was in, especially because we didn't know if her job was part of this and she didn't know if her job was part of this.

26:09And it was just like heartbreaking to watch these videos. But there was never proof of life. The only thing that ever happened was that there was a very small amount of money put into the Bitcoin wallet that came in in that first ransom note. By authorities? We don't know who put it in there. we can assume that it was authorities and the Guthrie family together. Or one or the other. Because were you guys like watching it? Yes, we could monitor it. There's only certain people who could monitor it who had the note. We could monitor it. We saw a very small amount put in. It was like a test with this like attached note that said, contact us, we are ready to talk.

26:40Something along those lines. And nothing else has ever happened though in that ransom note. That Bitcoin wallet was never active again. And nothing came of that. So my thought was, they're asking for proof of life. Clearly, if you believe these ransom notes are legit, they can't prove proof of life. So like, done. But we didn't really know if it was done or not. Because we didn't know if the ransom notes were legit either. Yeah. We still don't really know if they're legit. There has been some reporting in the past month. Reuters came out and said that they had this anonymous FBI source that had said all ransom notes in the investigation were fake.

27:17Yeah. All of that. That came out of nowhere. Yeah. And just like a couple weeks ago, a week ago. and the FBI, I mean, I'm like calling the FBI, right? Hey, is this true or not? And mind you, like there's these two ransom notes that came in and then there's like the slew of all these notes and emails and things that are coming in to namely TMZ that have been reported over the past couple months as well. Like one of them was this email that came in from this guy that was like, I know the kidnapper. I have video of Nancy alive on her last day with the kidnapper. It's on a, like a phone in a secure location.

27:48And if you give me a Bitcoin, then I will reveal the safe location. Crazy. I mean, these are just like crazy things. We don't know if that's legit. But we do know that the FBI arrested somebody very quickly early on in the investigation for sending a fake ransom note. So we do know that they're able to determine what is and isn't real pretty quickly. That person has pleaded guilty. So that kind of leads you to believe that if they can deem that to be true and if they're not saying anything about some of these emails that they're still looking at these two notes as being credible. What connects the second one to the first one?

28:22Came in through the same tip line to the news station. They basically like, they believe they referenced some of the same things. And it was a different IP address, but sent in the same way with the same kind of tone. So they believe that those were the two that came in from the same person at this point, that those two are related. Is it possible that they're not? Sure. Yeah. But the way that this was sent, and like, mind you too, that's like a pretty interesting way to send something through a anonymous tip line to a local news station. It's like a jot form. So the way that it sent, you don't see it, but they use different IP addresses, but they couldn't like track it.

29:01That was part of what was causing the issues as well. So you have those two things happening. At this point, the FBI has come out and on the record said that, yes, some ransom notes and some emails we've deemed to be bogus. But there are still some that we are investigating as possibly legitimate in this kidnapping ransom case, which is likely these two that we're talking about. We also don't know what else is coming behind the scenes. Yeah. And that's what's hard, too, right? We've had no information trickling out. And I think from my perspective reporting on this, there have been a lot of missteps.

29:35Like so much so that I'm honestly concerned about if we ever get to an arrest, what the prosecution is going to do to actually try to get justice in the case. because for one thing, the scene, right? Like that was bad. And the sheriff, Chris Nanos, did admit, like, we probably shouldn't have done that. We probably should have kept it secure. Yeah, I'd say so because my DNA might be on the driveway and the porch. There were a lot of people up and down there. So like, if that's a contaminated scene in a court of law, that's so wild. I mean, that could really impact everything. It's totally wild.

30:10Then you had what felt like this kind of tension between the sheriff's department and the FBI. And some of that came to be like where the DNA was sent. So PCSD was using this private lab in Florida and they were sending stuff there, but the FBI wanted to use their lab in Quantico. It's like a premier lab that they can try to get things back quickly. And there was like this kind of like chatter online of like, okay, well, so-and-so doesn't know where this DNA is being sent. We wanted to send it here, but you sent it there. And they had to address that. And they'd be like, it's fine. But like it - But it clearly is not fine.

30:40It was not fine. So you had that. Mom and dad are fighting. Right. And then let's talk about some of what was said to me and my team behind the scenes from the sheriff. So I haven't talked about this before, but I think this kind of highlights how this all went. To clarify where the DNA evidence was going was of the utmost importance to accurate reporting, right? Yes. In Arizona, the nightly newscasts are on at 10 p.m. That is standard across the board. And as we all know in this job, the news doesn't sleep, right? But it's especially not sleeping in the biggest investigation in the country at 10 p.m., which is not even that late.

31:24So we were getting ready for the evening newscast. And this is among like where the DNA evidence is going. What are you testing? How are you testing it? And my team sent a text to Sheriff Chris Nanos just trying to clarify what was going on with the DNA evidence. so that we could be right before the newscast. So this was around like 9.50 that the text was sent to him. And this is like, what, a week out? Yeah, this is within February. So it was like a week, within like one or two weeks since she was missing. Still, we're talking like top lead story headlines across every news network every night at this point still.

31:59So my team texts him trying to get clarification. We immediately received a text back from him that said, did you happen to notice the time? Give it a rest. what when I tell you we looked at that text I looked at the text and I was like you've got to be joking first off first off that text took more effort than simply a no or a yes yes or don't respond and and to the point of timing this isn't a year out and you're bothering him with his like family. Like I honestly kind of expect you to be on it at 10 p.m. a week out if we still haven't found her. 100%. I bet the Guthrie family did too. I mean, I'm thinking like Savannah's not resting.

32:46They're not resting. We're not resting. Like that just was such a snarky response to give it a rest. Like she's missing. And this is like your job. This is your job. And there was something that the sheriff said too in that press conference basically said Like, you guys hold me to all my words. Like, yes, you're the sheriff of the most important or maybe biggest true crime investigation missing person that is happening in real time in this country. Yes, we are holding you to your words because what you say is exceptionally important. And in that timeframe, everything just went downhill. Like, on social media, people were fed up with Sheriff Nanos.

33:27He wouldn't do a press conference, but then he was doing like individual one-off interviews, including with me, but saying different things in these different interviews. So then you'd have to go back to like the public information officers of the sheriff's department and be like, hey, he said this in this interview, but didn't say that in this. Is that true? And it would be like, you know, either we can't confirm or we can't comment. So then that just like muddied the waters even more, right? With what was true and what wasn't. I just feel like factually, we needed to get the right information out there.

33:54Did he just not know what was going on? Or like, what was that? Great question. I still honestly don't know. And there are things that have been said from him throughout these different interviews that I think he just kind of says, and it's not backed up by fact. Somewhat recently, he went on to a news station and said that there's been arrests. There haven't. There's been no arrests. And that's kind of the other part of this too. When we're talking about the missteps and just like the weirdness of it all, in that first month, there were three people detained in the case. One of them was a DoorDash driver that lived south, like an hour south of Nancy Guthrie's home.

34:30His name was Carlos. He was detained, questioned, and then released. And then there were two other people who were detained in the case, Mary and Luke Daly. Mary was Luke's mom. They lived pretty close to Nancy Guthrie's home. I interviewed them both, and they still don't understand why they were detained. We still don't know why they were detained. Many people online still believe that Luke Daly looks like porch guy. I mean, they have online court of public opinion have decided that Luke could be porch guy. But Luke is adamant that he is not. We still don't know why these three people were detained.

35:05They were all released. There's been nothing more that has come of that. And there has been, as far as we know, no other detainments. And I think we would know that if there was in the case. So that's like where this kind of ends because there's nothing more. We know that DNA is being tested. More DNA? Yes. So something that also, I'm like remembering this as I'm going with you. I don't know if you heard about this, but like the black glove of it all was like a big part of this. So there was, you know, obviously the abductor was wearing gloves. So that became like a key. What kind of gloves are these?

35:38Let's look for gloves. There was a black glove that was found on the side of the road about two miles-ish from Nancy's home that was tested. And that came back unrelated. It came back to DNA of a nearby restaurant worker. Okay. But then there was like other gloves found near Nancy's home. Like everyone was looking for gloves. It was like a scavenger hunt for gloves. And the sheriff basically came out and was like, oh, well, like our investigators like disposed of gloves on the ground. What are we doing here? I don't know. And I'm like, why would we do that if we're looking for gloves? Why are we just disposing of the gloves on the ground?

36:09Guess which one are ours? Guess which one aren't? And he was like, some of them, they were blue. It's like, okay, blue, black, glove. Let's just not put them on the ground, right? Let's not. Let's not. So the gloves part of this investigation hasn't really gone anywhere. But we do know that they were able to get mixed DNA from inside Nancy's home. What I mean by that is like there are multiple profiles in this DNA sample. Whatever it is, wherever it was from. Whatever it is, wherever it's from, right? And so they need to separate that. And like part of that becomes, obviously we expect Nancy's DNA to be part of that.

36:44She's in the home. But like who else's DNA could be part of that? perhaps her daughter, her son-in-law. Friends who visited. Friends who visited, you know. That's not necessarily the smoking gun. It could be the thing, but it could mean a number of things that are completely unrelated. Right, exactly. So they need to separate that DNA and see if there's like an unknown profile that matches somebody who shouldn't belong in the home and then do genetic genealogy on that. We haven't heard anything more on that. I actually thought we were going to hear more about the DNA by this point, and we haven't.

37:12So that's ongoing. I'd be surprised. I mean, like, especially with mixed samples, I know that getting a sample that's good enough to do genealogy or enough is very difficult. And even if they get to that point, then you have to contend with the fact that depending on who our perpetrator is, I mean, there are so many populations of people who are underrepresented in these databases that take forever to find if you find them at all. And that could very well be the case. So that should still be going on behind the scenes. We haven't gotten an update on that. And then there's really been like tips or just random things that have come in throughout the couple months that are like, oh, a tip came into this group in Mexico that Nancy was buried at these unmarked graves.

37:59And they sent investigators out there. They didn't find her. That didn't come to fruition. Then you've got TMZ receiving these emails. Oh, we, their last known days are on this phone and this video and the secure location. And if you give me this, I can get there. And obviously nothing's come of that either. And that's like kind of where this all stops. Like this is where we're at now. Six months later, I cannot believe that this is where we're at with no answers, no arrests. We don't know where Nancy is. And we don't really know what exactly is happening behind the scenes or what's come in besides the fact that they're DNA testing.

38:36Wow. So why did this happen? Right? Like, yeah, what do we think? And that's where I recently interviewed a former chief investigator who has come up with what I think is a very educated, well-thought-out, well-researched theory. There's been a little bit of chatter of it online. She's talked about it. She kind of put out this paper on it. But I really wanted to dive in deep with her. And based on everything we know, I think that this could be very plausible. Again, anything could be the case right now, right? We don't know where Nancy is. We don't know what's happening. But why did this come to fruition in the first place, right?

39:14Did this investigator have the information about the notes that we all have now? She had some of them. And the U.S. dollar is actually going to be the key here. So her name is Lisa Miller. She's out of Colorado. She's been featured on like a lot of different news programs, true crime. She is a seasoned investigator. Now she works as a consultant. And so she basically put together this like pages long sub stack report or paper on what she believes happened here. And weirdly enough, right after she did that, this cybersecurity firm actually came out and categorized the Nancy Guthrie abduction as the same thing she had talked about.

39:50So that even made it feel more credible. So let's talk about it. Lisa Miller believes that this is something called an evolved wrench attack. What is an un-evolved? I don't even know what a wrench attack is. Neither did I. So a wrench attack basically means that you are targeting somebody's digital assets, namely Bitcoin, cryptocurrency. Like they are wealthy in this. You are targeting them for that to extract that from them. Now, Nancy Guthrie, nobody is saying that she was just had all this Bitcoin or cryptocurrency, right? So that's what kind of makes this evolved. The thought here was that she was the target, the vulnerable target, and Savannah basically was like, we're going to leverage Savannah's wealth by abducting Nancy Guthrie to extort the money that we want in cryptocurrency.

40:42Okay. So, following? Presumably because that's like the most untraceable or? Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Way less traceable than any sort of other money transaction. So, what are the factors here? Savannah Guthrie, public figure, right? We know that she likely does financially well, given her job and what she does. But there's two things that I think might have been the reason why this was the Savannah and Nancy Guthrie target itself. One, Savannah's always public, but she had been even more public lately because she was getting ready for coverage of the Olympics. So there was a ton of promo and press on NBC that was going on about that.

41:21But they also had recently done these segments, the anchors of the Today Show, where they were going to their hometowns in November. And it's actually a really cool and cute story. I just rewatched it last night. It was like eight minutes of Savannah going back to Tucson, Arizona, checking out University of Arizona, where she was, you know, looked at sorority, where she ended up getting her law degree. Like she talked about all of that and then why she loves Tucson so much. And one of her favorite places in Tucson is this restaurant called El Charo. And in the piece, she goes there with her mom, Nancy, and her sister.

41:54And I mean, you can like feel the love. It's like so palpable as to like this family loves each other. They're talking about the history. And Savannah's basically asking her mom in this, like, you know, what made you stay in Tucson? And she was just like, I just love it. Like the pace of life, it's slower. She wants to watch the Javelina run. And like there had been neighbors that have posted on social media too. Like she installed cameras at her home because she wanted to see the wildlife. Like she wanted to see what Tucson, Arizona has to offer as your home. and it's quick. Like she's not in it a ton, but you can see she's there.

42:25You can see why she loves it. Savannah's kind of showing the remote, you know, vast nature. We don't know if that's something that these people saw, but it was something that her mom was recently featured in that showed them like at home in Tucson. And her mom is, you know, a vulnerable adult. So she had been very visible, right? Like that's what anybody would have seen Savannah on more. So there's basically two parts of this theory that come to play here. One, I'm going to refer to him or her as the mastermind. There's the mastermind who is likely overseas or foreign who comes up with the digital plan of it all.

43:01Basically, the sophisticated plan of the communication of how they're going to extort this ransom in cryptocurrency. They're highly sophisticated. That's how you know to use the different IP addresses. They're using like this encrypted tip line. This is somebody who knows what they're doing, right? Like this is something that they do. So you have the mastermind that comes up with the plan. And then according to this theory, they hire what we would call like the local actor or the local recruits, porch guy. So porch guy likely was hired by the mastermind, somebody who's local to either Southern Arizona, perhaps Mexico, and it could have been him and like maybe another person, right?

43:38We don't know if there was like a getaway car or somebody else that helped pull off like the physical abduction. Over and over and over again, while reporting on this story, I had so many people who were experts, like retired FBI agents, retired homicide detectives tell me that based on the video and the way that this abduction was carried out, that this person was not a skilled criminal, like not sophisticated. This was a sloppy job, X, Y, and Z. And I kept thinking, okay, but like they pulled it off. Yeah. So how sloppy is it? And I think that that's where these like two people come into play, The brains of it all is coming from the mastermind.

44:17The porch person, the abductor himself is just like being paid to carry out this job. And maybe they aren't super skilled, but they did enough to pull this off, right? So it all starts as planned. The ransom note is sent. Here's your deadlines. Nancy's been taken. We're going to get the money. And then the plan completely fails because they didn't account for her health condition. And I don't think that they accounted for her to die. and that's where this all kind of starts to fall off the tracks. So you've got the Guthrie family begging for proof of life. They can't give it. So now you've got the ransom note from the mastermind who's like pretty cold, right?

44:56Like removed. This person is likely thousands of miles away. Does this, you know, for like a living and was just like, we didn't plan for that. Sorry, out, right? Now porch guy left with Nancy has to find somewhere to bury her remains and try to get out unscathed. So you've got this problem of now what do you do? Because if the mastermind had left, like kind of left the investigation, like cut ties, didn't work out, moving on. And porch guy or whoever is involved in the actual physical abduction of it buried her remains somewhere and fled. Where do you go? Like you're stuck. And part of the problem here is the fact that if the mastermind is foreign, right?

45:42And what leads us to believe that is that's the person writing these ransom notes. That's why they're - USD, perished. Like things you, maybe you almost would either use a translator, perhaps like chat GPT, I don't even know. But like things that you and I would not say to each other is likely coming from this person that is concocting this whole plan from afar. Now it's possible the FBI knows more than we know. And they maybe are able to figure out like where this person is. But it is also possible that wherever this person is doesn't subpoena or extradite to the United States of America. So that could be a huge problem with like access that the FBI could get.

46:16It's also possible that they've encrypted everything and there is just no trace of them. So now the question, according to this theory, and with Lisa Miller, who came, who, you know, shared this with me was like, so now what? If the mastermind and porch guy have cut ties with each other, the mastermind may know why the plan was concocted, how they came up with Nancy and Savannah, what they wanted to do with it, but they may not know where Nancy is now, her remains. And porch guy may know where Nancy is now. It's likely that that person has fled either, possibly to Mexico, knows where Nancy is, isn't telling mastermind, and doesn't really know why the plan ever came to fruition in the first place.

46:56Porch guy may not even know the identity of the mastermind, just getting paid for a job. So if they're not communicating, you're stalled. Who sends the second note in this scenario? Mastermind. All communication in this theory is coming from the mastermind themselves. All the communication. If he doesn't care, though, like why bother? Why take the risk? Why bother sending that? The second one? Yeah. Or the first one? The second one. I think because he wanted to like, done, cut ties. This isn't going to work. Oh. You won't hear from me again. Like, right, like you're not going to hear from me again.

47:31We're done here. And kind of like put that like closing chapter. And if that is the case, that ended in the first week of this investigation. Everything. She passed. This would be the last communication. So now it's like, okay, so how do we move forward? According to this theory, for there to be any movement, you would need there to be incentive for the mastermind and or porch guy to come forward with more information about where Nancy's remains are. And to believe that they could still make a buck from doing that money. money. Savannah Guthrie and the Guthrie family has been pretty outspoken that they will pay to receive Nancy.

48:11They want to bring her home. They want closure. If she has passed, as they believe she has, they obviously want to pay their respects, say their goodbyes, and have her home. So is that enough for them to come back forward? So I only see four options forward here, if this theory is correct. One, the mastermind reopens communication with the Guthrie family. Is that through a news station tip line? Is that directly to them? I don't know. Obviously, huge liability there if they do that. But if they feel like they can get the money, that's one way. Number two, DNA results come back and they identify who Porch Guy is.

48:46That would be great if that happened. I don't know if that's possible. Number three, somebody comes forward with information who can identify Porch Guy, which we were hopeful for six months ago. And number four, and this might honestly be what I think is realistic, that Nancy Guthrie's remains are eventually found somewhere in nature by like a hiker or somebody doing target practice out in a rural area. I do think it's possible they're in the desert in Southern Arizona. That's a lot of desert. It's so vast. You and I have both been there. I mean, it is just, it could be years. And I do think that that's how possibly that she will be found.

49:28But all of these like lack actual answers, like who is the mastermind? If that's true, who is porch guy? Will we ever get the why? Yeah, I don't know. But obviously like number one now is just like bring Nancy home. And how I think the question I have is like, how often is this happening? This seems like not a one-off thing, right? This seems like a practiced Like you knew exactly what to do. There's a name for this, right? This wrenching or whatever. Like how often is this happening, but it's not Savannah Guthrie's mom? You know what I mean? I think more than we think because when I was going and looking up the wrench attack, like not just the definition, but just more reporting on them, I noticed like an Associated Press article came up from last year.

50:06Like there was more articles that were coming up about this rise in wrench attacks. And this one just might be a little bit of a different one. And yes, has gotten immense spotlight because it is Savannah Guthrie's mom. But this is something that seems to be on the rise, like targeting digital assets. The fact of it, though, is like, how were they able to pull off an abduction of a grandma in 2026 where DNA is huge, where cameras are huge? Like, I still can't believe that we're here now. Do you think they're going to come out and do a press conference or say anything? Or like, is it just going to be like silence still?

50:44So I think that a press conference will happen only if there is a massive update. I do say that, though, and we thought that the video when it was released of the abductor was a massive update and they didn't do a press conference then either. But like I think at this point the options are like either they identify who Porch Guy is and they arrest him and that's a press conference. They identify where these ransom notes are coming in from or deem them like these are legit. We've identified who they came in from. That's a press conference. Or obviously if Nancy is found. But it just feels like so radio silent right this second.

51:16And that's the problem. People have like relied on inside sources to try to come forward with any information because we've learned not a lot from the actual agencies. They're not saying a lot. And so it just leaves people like wondering, speculating, guessing, theorizing. And I do think that this could be credible. And based on everything we know, right, like the way these are written and like how this has been carried out, this is possible. But it's still really unsettling. Like we don't know what happens. so I'm gonna be back in Arizona and I am going to stay on top of this case like I've never seen something like this and I hope for everybody's sake that we get some answers here that the Guthrie family gets closure yeah but I think like crime I hope the crime junkies can watch and listen to this and feel a lot more educated about everything that's gone on in this case and like really understand what's at stake here and what's been said in hopes that like there are answers sometime soon So you guys, make sure you are following us on social, on all the channels.

52:16That way, Brianna is going to be back in Arizona, like she said, soon. She will be on the ground in Tucson the second anything breaks or happens. But if you want to be in the know on all headline-making cases, make sure you head to our Crime Junkie YouTube channel. Brianna releases a new video episode every Wednesday. I've had a heavy hand in crafting these stories with her, so it feels like the Crime Junkie you know and love. Brianna's already covered like four or five cases. She'll be back on YouTube next week with a new one. And I will be back in audio and on YouTube Monday with Britt for a brand new episode of Crime Junkie.

53:32Crime Junkie is an Audio Chuck production. I think Chuck would approve.

53:42Whispers in the dark, phenomenon that slipped past the logic, legends that refused to die. When the unknown stirs, its trail leads to our podcast, So Supernatural. I'm Yvette Gentile. And I'm her sister, Rasha Pecoraro. Together, we explore all of the world's most bizarre mysteries. Listen to So Supernatural every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.