MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Laura Sweetman

22:47So maybe he could figure out where it was she was living. To be clear, no one ever reported seeing Dave at Laura's rental house, and Dave insisted to detectives that he had no idea where she lived. But there is one detail in the police report that sticks out to me. On November 14th, this is less than a month before Laura would be found dead in her home, one of her neighbors called police to report a suspicious car parked across the street from Laura's house. It was a white Isuzu rodeo with an Arizona license plate. He said there was a white man in the driver's seat doing something on his phone.

23:30And when he walked up to ask him what he was doing in the neighborhood, the man said that it was none of his business and basically cursed him out. Now, our reporter, Nicole Kagan, was able to get in touch with this neighbor, a man named Harry. And he said that this car drove by his house at least three times that day. And he called police because he thought the man driving might have been following him. Now, he couldn't say exactly how long the car was in the neighborhood, but at least a couple of hours. And it seemed like the driver was looking for somebody. But then at night, Harry noticed that the car parked in Laura's driveway.

24:07Ashley Flowers:And does this happen more than once? Harry said that was the only time that he knew of this car being in the neighborhood. But either way, he said that police didn't seem to care about the call and they never followed up with him. And he says he remembers calling them back later himself, and they just said, quote, nothing further. Now, all Harry remembered was that the guy in the car was a white guy with a medium build, which like, sure, fits Dave. But like everyone else. How many other, yeah, how many other guys? But here's the wild part. For what it's worth, Harry did keep meticulous records.

24:44So when Nicole was talking to him about this, he's like, oh, you know what? Wait one second. Let me just go check my crime folder to see if I have notes from that time.

24:54Ashley Flowers:His what? I don't know if this man listens to the show, but he should. He is a crime junkie because what he did reminds me of when I was young and we would go on road trips with my family. While other kids, I'm sure, were like on road trips, had coloring books or like playing I Spy. I had this like little notebook. I'm sure you know. I know. Where I would like. I can like see this notebook. Where I would like take down license plate numbers of cars that I found to be suspicious. You, like seven-year-old you. It never. I don't like that car. It never came in handy. but Harry's crime folder might come in handy because when he went to his computer, he's like, yep, I took notes about this.

25:28Of course he did. Like back when it happened, I took notes of the type of car and by the way, the license plate number, which Britt, we tried so hard to run this down. I mean, he gave us the number, but there's this thing called the Driver's Privacy Protection Act, which keeps people who aren't detectives or PIs from running license plates to identify a driver.

25:50Ashley Flowers:Which, like, makes sense. And listen, that's why we're like, we even were like, oh, we'll just, like, hire a PI. But, like, the DPPA makes it difficult to even do that, too. Because you can't just, like, be a media company and use them to, like, go around it. Right, right. But I know for a fact that Harry gave this license plate number to the police. What I don't know is if they ever did anything with it, if they tracked down this driver or who that driver was. because there is no further mention of this tip in Laura's file. Now, we did FOIA the incident report for Harry's call, but as of this recording, we still haven't gotten a response from the Gilbert Police Department.

26:25In fact, when you submit a request through their portal, it says the minimum processing time is 18 months.

26:33Ashley Flowers:Is that even legal? Our legal counsel says she doesn't think so. It's a constructive denial, which basically means that the agency didn't want to explicitly say no. So they said anything but no. Yeah. But like so basically in their actions or like their lack of actions like does the speaking for them. So million dollar question. What kind of car did Dave drive? Dude, I have no idea. No one we asked remembered from that time. And this would have been a super simple question for police to have answered at the time. But there is nothing in the records about them checking cars after this tip came in.

27:10Ashley Flowers:Was this neighbor's tip in Laura's file or was it just like records we pulled from calls placed in the neighborhood? No, it's right there in the file. It's just not. Never followed up on. No. But regardless, I don't think it's outrageous to speculate that whoever was in that car, for whatever reason, it might have had to do with Laura. Well, yeah, especially if they're parked in her driveway. So, all of this brings me right up to the few weeks before Laura died. That is when she did something strange, right before Thanksgiving. Laura wrote a prescription and asked one of her friends, who were going to call Tara, for a favor.

27:51She wanted Tara to fill the prescription in Tara's name, but then give it to Laura.

27:58Ashley Flowers:Was this something she had done before? Not that we know of. And Tara actually told police that Laura had never asked her to do any favors at all. But she said that Laura was, quote, really behind on paperwork and in desperation when she asked this. I don't know if she ever did this before with anyone else. As far as I can tell, Laura was like a pretty by-the-books person. And this is definitely not legal. Like, it could be considered prescription fraud. And if there is controlled substances involved. Then it's a huge deal. Yeah, I mean, it can rise to felony charges. It's like the kind of thing that if found out by the medical board could cause someone's medical license to be suspended or even revoked.

28:38So I don't know what was driving her to do this now.

28:42Ashley Flowers:And do we know what the prescription was for? No, it's redacted in the file. And Tara declined to speak with us for this episode. Emily, who we talked to, said that she believed it was for treating anxiety. which given everything that was going on with Laura at the time, like it didn't surprise Emily that she might have taken something like that. So now this brings me to early December. Laura took the kids to San Diego for Thanksgiving. So when they got back on December 1st, the boys went to stay with their dad for a full week, including the weekend. So they're with him on Monday, December 9th, the morning that Laura Sweetman was found dead.

29:22That morning, it was pretty obvious that something had happened to Laura. She was a no-call, no-show for work. And I've worked with doctors before. For any good doctor, that is unheard of. So pretty early in the morning, one of her co-workers started making calls to check on her. When she didn't answer, they called Stacy and asked her to go check on Laura. This was shortly before 9, 10 a.m. When Stacy got to Laura's, the metal gate door on the front door, It's like what we would call a screen door, right? That was locked and the front door, both locked as usual. So she had to use her key to get inside.

29:58She was greeted by both of Laura's dogs, but she didn't see Laura anywhere or hear anything when she called out her name. Before she could even go up the stairs to check Laura's room, she saw the first sign that something was off. Right at the base of the staircase. The plastic gate that was usually in place to keep Laura's smaller dog from getting by was laying on the floor in this, like, diagonal position, a few feet away from the staircase. Stacey actually had to move it out of the way so she could get up the steps. And upstairs, Laura wasn't in her unmade bed. Stacey found her in the bathtub, unresponsive.

30:38Within five minutes of calling 911, Gilbert firefighters are at the scene. And what's documented is that Laura was naked, unresponsive, and foaming at the mouth. And while there was water in the tub, Laura's face wasn't submerged, and there were no other obvious wounds or bleeding that explained what had happened. But there was no hope of saving her, because when the fire captain tried to move Laura's arm, he realized that she was already in full rigor, which sets in after like 6 to 12 hours-ish.

31:14Ashley Flowers:Which would put her time of death at what? Based on my math, sometime between 9 p.m. on the 8th and 3 a.m. on the 9th. But there is no time of death listed in the police or the ME reports. So do we know if anyone saw her in that window of time? Well, before I get to that, I want to first point out some things about the scene. To the first detective that arrives on scene, everything seems in order. Like there's no obvious signs of a struggle or forced entry. But according to Stacey, there are some things that are out of place. That dog gate, for one. But also, when she heard the fire truck coming, Stacey went to let the dogs out in the backyard.

31:58And that's when she got a second sign that something was off. The back door, which Laura always locked before going to bed, was unlocked.

32:07Ashley Flowers:So someone could have easily walked right in. Or walked right out. It also could mean that she died before going to sleep that night. Like before all of her like nighttime rituals. Right, before she got a chance to fully lock up for the night. And until police know what caused Laura's death, like they do have to treat this whole thing as suspicious. Which means talking to those who knew her. This is how we have anything in the police file. And I want to start with Dave's first interview with police. Because it's really strange. You guys, we are finally rolling into summer. And I am ditching the sweaters, packing away the coats, but I am still wearing quince.

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33:51Ashley Flowers:For some, summer is their favorite season. Travel picks up, kids are out of school, and adventure is in the focus. For others, juggling it all can lead to overwhelm and counting down the minutes until the kids are back in school. And many worry that they're wasting the days of sunshine. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, to support can make all the difference. BetterHelp makes it easy to get started with quality, fully licensed therapists in the U.S. who follow a strict code of conduct. In fact, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform with over 30 ,000 therapists who've served over 6 million people globally.

34:20Ashley Flowers:Their therapist match commitment does the initial matching work so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences. And if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time. It works. BetterHelp has an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10 % off at BetterHelp.com slash Crime Junkie. That's BetterHelp.com slash Crime Junkie. When a detective calls Dave the day that Laura was found, he tells Dave that Laura is part of an investigation and asks if Dave is able to pick their kids up from school.

35:02Ashley Flowers:A part of an investigation? Like they don't tell him that Laura is dead? Dave asks what's wrong, but they say that they can't explain it over the phone. So they agree to meet Dave at his house. Here's where it gets interesting. So according to the police file, when Dave greets the detective outside of his house, he's already crying. Even though they haven't told him what happened? Exactly. Did Stacy tell him? No, the detective immediately clocks this as odd. So he specifically asks if Dave spoke to anyone and he says no. So why is he crying? File doesn't say. But when the detective finally does tell Dave that Laura died, he just like doubles over and starts sobbing uncontrollably, which the detective says continues for the duration of their conversation.

35:56And they speak about Laura's medical history, the order of protection, the divorce, the domestic violence call, and even his affair. But Dave maintains that he had no idea where Laura lived or what her life was like after they separated. From what I can see, the last time he tells them that he saw Laura was at their son's baseball game back in October. And for all the things they do talk about, nowhere in the summary do I see the detective asking Dave

36:26Ashley Flowers:any accusatory questions or even anything about where he was the night before. So we don't know if he had an alibi or not? Not explicitly, no. But what makes the Dave scenario tricky is that his three sons were with him all weekend. And how old were they again? Back in 2013, they would have been like around 6, 8, and 9. And do we know if they had a sitter at any point? Or could he have left after they went to bed? Like that would make for a pretty good alibi. Yeah, I mean, sure. Like Laura's rental was only 15 minutes away, but there's no record of anyone sitting for them. And we reached out to one of Dave and Laura's now adult sons for comment, but he declined to speak and asked that we not contact anyone else in his family.

37:10What I do know is that Gilbert PD did look at Dave's phone, and that showed that he was at his house from the night of December 8th through the morning of the 9th, up until he dropped the kids off at school between like 7 and 7.30 that morning.

37:26Ashley Flowers:You mean his phone was there? That's his phone. A phone can be left anywhere. Which is why I'm dying to see more records. Like, was there activity on it during that time? Like, was it normal activity? Did they look at location data outside of just that night? Did it ever come close to Laura's rental? And I would also really love to ask Dave about all of this, but he didn't respond to any of our calls or our messages. So when all this happened, were people suspicious of Dave, like right off the bat? Oh, yeah. Laura's dad, her stepmom, one of her co-workers, and Emily all told police that they thought Dave had something to do with Laura's death.

38:03In fact, according to the police file, the moment Emily heard that Laura died, she immediately texted a friend and said, quote, I'm so sick to my stomach. I know David had to do something with it. End quote.

38:17Ashley Flowers:I mean, if we think about possible motive with Laura gone, Dave could avoid the divorce proceedings. He automatically get custody of the kids. Like that simplify things. And that's exactly what did happen. And some people we spoke to have suggested that Dave benefited from Laura's life insurance policy, though we have not been able to corroborate that with any official records. But spoiler alert, Dave has never been publicly named as a suspect or person of interest in this case. But also, no one has. Because this case has never been discussed publicly by the police department. So in my eyes, Dave does seem suspicious, but it's hard to tell how much of that is coming from the evidence versus the people in the police file who were already convinced it was him.

39:09And I'll go on the record as saying he may not be the only person in Laura's life who deserves that level of attention. We know Laura had started to date other men when she separated from Dave, right? Well, she was in communication with at least five of them in the weeks leading up to her death. And one of those five was the last known person to see Laura alive. So the day before Laura died, this would have been Sunday, December 8th, she invited a man that she had been seeing named Will over to her place. Will was a trainer at the gym that she went to. Now, his description of their relationship when he talks to police on December 10th is that they met because of the training.

39:52Like, he trained both her and Dave at one point. And then they started talking more, going to lunch together, and that they were, quote, basically friends. But Will does admit to being at Laura's on the 8th, quote, for maybe an hour.

40:04Ashley Flowers:Okay, like, which hour and, like, to do what? For some reason, I cannot understand, they never actually ask Will for the time that he left, which, like, is... The important part? Yes. And we asked Emily if she knew, because she and Will used to be friends too. And she said that at the time, he told her that he left between 9 and 11 p.m. But I can't find anything to corroborate that. And it doesn't seem like he explicitly says, like, what he was even there for. Or at least if he does say that, it doesn't make it into the police file. So when he left, what they were doing, I don't know. Now, he says that when he left, at whatever time that was, Laura was completely fine.

40:47And he says that she didn't mention anything about anyone else coming to the house that night. But even he adds that he knew Laura was afraid of Dave and that he really hoped she died of natural causes.

41:01Ashley Flowers:I mean, for his sake or hers? That is a great follow-up question that was not asked. What the detective does seem to ask Will is if he still has any text messages with Laura from Sunday on his phone. And he says no, that he deleted them because he had a girlfriend and he didn't want her to know about Laura. But I thought he and Laura were just friends. Buddies, right? Yeah. I think it's safe to assume that it could have been more than that. because when Will consents to give his phone over to police, which he does, he prefaces that there are, quote, images of Laura on it, whatever that means. Now, along with his phone, Will gives his DNA, though I don't know what for because there is no mention in the redacted file of anything that they might be wanting to compare this to.

41:53I know investigators did do a sexual assault kit on Laura, but none of the files that we received mentioned the results of that.

42:00Ashley Flowers:And do they ever just straight up ask Will if he had anything to do with Laura's death? Not that I can see. And like Dave, there is no information whatsoever about an alibi. Actually, at least with Dave, we have phone data. We don't even get that for Will in the file. So we don't even know for sure if he did leave Laura's place. Well, I mean, we know he wasn't there on Sunday when Stacey got there in the morning. Right, but that's all we know. That's all I can say for sure, right. And our reporter reached out to Will for comment. but as of this recording, he hasn't gotten back to us. But like I said, Will wasn't the only man that Laura was seeing at the time.

42:36In fact, he's not even the only man she saw that weekend. Through analyzing Laura's text messages, police were able to determine that on Saturday, December 7th, Laura went on a date with a man named Shaheen. And on Sunday, she texted multiple men to try and make plans for that night. She asked a man named Emeka to see a movie. She was going to spend the night with a man named Darren, but he canceled. So that night, she ended up having dinner with a man named Bruce. And then after that dinner is when Will must have come over.

43:08Ashley Flowers:Do these guys know about each other? Well, Will tells the police that he didn't know about anyone else. As for the other guys, we tried to reach all of them because as far as I can tell, police never did. But as of this recording, we have not been able to connect with any of them. I mean, I'm looking at all these guys and I can kind of see a motive here. Like, who's to say one of them didn't, like, find out about everyone else, get jealous? Right. Like, what if the car that neighbor Harry saw was one of them? And, like, I want to ask, like, were any of them white with a medium build? But, like, we said, like, that could match so many people.

43:42Yeah, I couldn't find any photos of Darren, Emeka, or Shaheen online. But, I mean, Will and Bruce could fit that description.

43:49Ashley Flowers:And, like, what if one of them saw Will leaving the house and, like, confronted her? The problem I have with a theory like that, no matter who it would involve, is that feels like a crime of passion, right? And those usually have a clear-cut cause of death. That is not what we get here. Which brings me to the part of this case that has been keeping me up at night. Laura's autopsy report. We were able to get the medical examiner's report and the toxicology report completely unredacted from the Maricopa County Medical Examiner's Office. And let's just say, they raise a lot of questions. So our reporter, Nicole, reached out to the medical examiner who performed Lord's autopsy.

44:34His name is Dr. Mark Shelley, and she consulted an outside forensic pathologist who has no ties to this case to go through everything line by line and make sure that we understood exactly what the findings were. The first thing of note is that Laura had no internal injuries, but there is evidence of trauma on her body. Dr. Shelley notes surface-level bruises, scrapes, and redness on Laura's head, back, breasts, elbow, forearms, wrist, hand, leg, and knee. But according to the pathologist that we consulted, it's hard to know what these might be from. There's no description of any particular patterns.

45:21Ashley Flowers:And they were all fresh or recent? So not all of them, because this is the other thing. Some appear to have been at least a week old. And Will told police in his interview that Laura bruised easily and would have bruises in random places, specifically like her like her shins and her arms. But he didn't know how she got them. He said it never looked like she had been beaten up or anything like that. OK, did police specifically ask him that because to them it looked like she'd been beaten up? It's honestly not totally clear from the file, like, what prompted that information out of him. But it also could have come up when they were talking about her workout routines, since we know he's a trainer.

46:01Because I actually know that Dave told police Laura, quote, works out like an idiot. And the pathologist that we consulted said that all of these injuries could have been sustained during frequent workouts, except for the signs of trauma to her head. there is a contusion around the size of like a business card on the top of Laura's head and then another near her left temple. Neither of these were lethal injuries, but could they have knocked Laura unconscious? The pathologist says it's not likely, but it is possible.

46:36Ashley Flowers:And were those injuries recent? I would assume yes, because they're not noted as healing like some of the other bruises are. but I can't say 100 % for sure. I mean, without photos or more detailed report, the bruises and the contusions are hard to explain. And what's somehow even harder to explain is the foaming at the mouth. And this is where things start to get really weird. According to the pathologist, foaming at the mouth is common in drowning because when water enters someone's lungs and they try to breathe, The air mixes with the water and this thing called surfactant, which is a natural soapy fluid.

47:18And like this mixing creates foam. But Dr. Shelley wrote, quote, there was no definitive evidence of drowning, end quote.

47:28Ashley Flowers:Which also sounds like there was no definitive evidence that she didn't drown. The pathologist told us that given the bruising on Laura's arm, it's possible that someone could have held her underwater and drowned her. But without seeing the scene photos or photos of her body, he just can't say anything with certainty. And Gilbert PD hasn't released any of that. But was there any water in her airways? Dr. Shelley doesn't note any water specifically, but there was, quote, moderate amounts of blood and frothy fluid, end quote. And that was like in her lungs. And I wish Gilbert PD would release more or talk to us, because to me, the number one question I have is how was she positioned in the tub?

48:17Ashley Flowers:Same, because we know her head wasn't submerged, but I mean, did the water drain out a little bit? Right. Like you would think that like if her nose and mouth had been underwater for like a longer period of time, I would imagine it wouldn't be like foamy. Like maybe that would wash away. I can see that, yeah. And like actually, how much foam was there even? I don't know. Was she laying down like she was just like enjoying a bath? How cold was the water? I have four million questions that the autopsy report alone does not answer. Now, I know from talking to Emily that Laura was a bath girly. Take it from one who knows.

48:51Particularly loved taking baths at night. But did she go into that tub on her own? That is my question. And I don't know the answer. But let's say for a second that this wasn't a drowning. There is something else that can cause foaming at the mouth, and that is a heart attack. But this is truly a whole nother can of worms. Because according to the ME's report, Dr. Shelley says that he received Laura's medical history, which included, quote, a prior myocardial infarction, end quote, which is medical speak for a heart attack. But the pathologist that we spoke to said he wants to know where Dr. Shelley got that medical history from because the autopsy report states that there was no scarring, no abnormalities of the heart or cardiovascular system at all.

49:44Which he says there typically would be if there was a previous heart attack.

49:49Ashley Flowers:But I mean, I know Shelley isn't just like pulling this out of thin air. He's not. That information is backed up in the police report. In interviews, Laura's friends and family and doctors states that Laura did have a heart attack in September 2011. This is two years before her death. She had it while training for a marathon, and she would have been like 39 at the time. And to their credit, Gilbert PD went to Laura's cardiologist, who said that when she came in in 2011, she, quote, did not have any significant blockage and there were not any additional interventions needed. So she had a heart attack, but there was basically no physical evidence of it?

50:32I guess so. That cardiologist said that they placed Laura on this like short-term medication until she took a stress test, which showed that she was fine. And actually in May 2013, almost seven months before her death, Laura saw her cardiologist, who said that she was asymptomatic with no complaints. They also did a blood workup at that time, which showed that there was no underlying cause for the initial heart attack. So it's like if you take everyone at their word, Laura had a heart attack. But if you look at the evidence. Her heart. Her actual heart, which you can only do in an autopsy, she didn't.

51:07Ashley Flowers:So, okay, like I'm like spiraling on this. Was she misdiagnosed? Was it just like severe chest pain or like a panic attack? Without like actually seeing her medical records myself, I don't know how they came to the conclusion that it was a heart attack. Like, I'm assuming there had to have been some kind of testing, right? She's a doctor, too. Like, she, I don't, maybe it was so mild that it didn't leave evidence. I mean, is that, is that possible? Is that even a thing? I mean, we asked Dr. Shelley. He said that every case is different, and it would depend on the exact intensity of the heart attack.

51:40Ashley Flowers:Which I guess makes sense. Yeah, and he says that's information he doesn't remember from her medical records. And like I said, we don't have them. But he remembers that there was no evidence of a new heart attack. But he couldn't remember if there was evidence of a previous one. And I mean, if there was, I think he would have recorded it. Correct. But maybe it was as undamaging as any heart attack could be. Because Emily did tell us that Laura bounced back really quickly after this and just kind of like almost played it off. Like, oh, no big deal. Just like a heart attack, whatever. But if there was anything wrong with her heart at any point, There was something Dr.

52:19Shelley noted in his report that could have contributed to her heart stopping. He says that a prescription stimulant medication was found at the scene.

52:29Ashley Flowers:Like stimulant, like Adderall? Could have been anything like that, right? Adderall, Ritalin, Vyvanse, like all of those things. Most of them are prescribed for like ADHD, which Emily says that she wasn't sure if Laura had. And today, Dr. Shelley didn't remember what the specific medication was. But he's saying it was at the scene. Was it in her system? That's the catch. There is nothing in her system. Laura's toxicology screen came back completely clean. There's no alcohol, no common drugs of abuse, no prescription stimulants or even anxiety medication. So it couldn't have contributed to her heart-stuffing if she didn't take it.

53:09Ashley Flowers:Like, finding at the scene means nothing. Yeah, or at least she didn't take it recently if she had before. Like, not that day, right? Right. But who was the drug prescribed to? The report doesn't say. But, I mean, as we know, a basic drug screen only rules out the most common drugs of abuse. They're looking for something specific. Yeah. I mean, it's like probably weed, cocaine, like stimulants. It doesn't mean that there couldn't have been like something else in Laura's system. It just means that those hypothetical drugs or like those common drugs were not there. And nothing else was tested for.

53:45Right. Nothing else was tested for. And because the toxicologist didn't include a methodology in their report, there's no way for us to know what sorts of instruments were used and what quantities of drugs that they could detect.

53:56Ashley Flowers:And is that something that's usually included in those reports? You know, I'm finding that it really depends on the specific lab or the person performing the autopsy. Great. But the pathologist that we spoke to said that the reports that he's familiar with usually does include that stuff. And, you know, this is one of, like, the biggest surprises to me as I've learned about how homicide investigations work. I am shocked at how few standards there are and, like, what is optional? Like with any other profession where you have people's life and death in your hands, there are strict rules about training, certification, continued education, oaths and expectations.

54:38Think about what like Laura probably had to go through to be a neurologist. Oh, yeah. But if your loved one is murdered, you got to just hope and pray that your detective knows what he's doing and that the lab has the right people running the right tests. Right. And then you cross your fingers. And like, I'm honestly done with people coming to me and talking about like underfunding. I know the guys in the trenches can't help it and they don't have a say. But our government is out here spending like$200 million on a Homeland Security ad saying like, don't come here in English. And based on Pentagon estimates reviewed by lawmakers, by mid-March, we already spent$11.6 billion on a war that I'm pretty sure none of us f***ing want.

55:20And you're telling me we don't have money for justice reform.

55:23Ashley Flowers:For just like a little bit of justice. That I have to start a nonprofit to pay out of my own pocket to solve cold cases because we can't afford it. Like, give me a break. What should be done with our tax dollars can be done. You can solve cases with your vote, you guys. Just remember that. But I will get off my soapbox and back to this autopsy report that apparently can include or exclude whatever it wants. Because there are no rules. There are few rules and it's optional to follow them. So another thing that the pathologists we consulted with pointed out was that there is at least one test result that is discussed in the ME's report that is not mentioned in the talk screen.

56:06It's a sodium level test on fluid from Laura's eye, which apparently shows an unusually low number. And that, he says, is something that you could see in association with freshwater drowning. It's not definitive evidence of drowning. The pathologist said that you could also see that in someone who, like, binge drinks water. But it does raise the question, what else was tested that might have been left out of the report? All in all, the pathologist said that what he can see from the reports seems to be reasonable. But if he were doing the autopsy, there are a few things that he would have done differently to try and get more information.

56:52He said that he would have wanted to do a detailed neuropathy examination or dissect Laura's cardiac conduction system, which Dr. Shelley says that he might have done and is just not mentioned in the file. But like he doesn't remember now. The consultant also would have wanted to do some genetic testing to see if Laura had any inherited conditions that could have caused sudden death because of a heart problem. Like there is this thing called long QT syndrome, which like talked about before it was in the Lauren Spear episode way back. But that's an inherited heart disorder that can cause sudden fainting seizures or cardiac arrest, particularly when the heart beats in an irregular way, like during exercise or stress.

57:32Now, Dr. Shelley says that he doesn't remember if the genetic testing for that was available back in 2013.

57:39Ashley Flowers:But it's not like Laura was exercising in her bathtub. True, but we know she was extremely stressed in the months leading up to her death. And, you know, when Will was there, I don't know what these buddies were doing when they were hanging out. And listen, like, the pathologist we talked to said that he doesn't know if any of those tests would even yield anything. But, like, what if they did? Right. He said that the way Laura was found suggests to him that she drowned. But what he can't interpret from the reports is why might she have drowned? Did someone hold her under the water? Did she have a seizure?

58:13Did she fall and get knocked unconscious? Did she overdose on something on purpose or by accident and it's just a drug that wasn't tested for in the talk screen?

58:22Ashley Flowers:The follow question is interesting here because I feel like the thing that doesn't fit into any of this is like the dog gate being at the bottom of the stairs. I know. I don't know what to make of that. Right. It's notable, but I don't know what it means. Right. Did someone like rush out and hit it? Did she trip over it and hit her head? And I think if she had done it, like she would have put the gate back up. Like it was there for a reason. It's her house, right? Maybe. Without further investigation, like, we have to guess because all we have are these reports which don't explain any of that.

58:53And I don't know what to think based on just reviewing these reports. Dr. Shelley said it looks like a typical autopsy. And though he doesn't remember what he was thinking back then, he would make the same undetermined conclusion about the cause and manner of death today with the information he has. which he says is not a common finding that like in the medical examiner world but quote it happens and this is an interesting part whenever it does happen the case has to be reviewed by at least one other pathologist and was this one i couldn't tell you because there's no documented evidence of a review in the me report and when we asked dr shelley if that happened he said it likely would have been reviewed, but quote, 2013 resources are different from 2026 resources.

59:47So my best recollection is that we would have done everything we could have in 2013, end quote. So here's an example of us having a rule in place, but no one has to show proof that they're following it.

1:00:02Ashley Flowers:That is, if they're even following it. And listen, it would be really great to have someone other than just Dr. Shelley to look to in this case. Because there's something that I haven't told you yet. Something that we were not prepared for. You guys, we are finally rolling into summer and I am ditching the sweaters, packing away the coats, but I am still wearing quince. Because quince is quality I wear all year round. In the field, on stage, at the office, Quince, Quince, Quince. Their clothing and accessories are timeless and long-lasting because they focus on high-quality, beautiful everyday essentials like 100 % European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at$32.

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1:01:30Ashley Flowers:This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. For some, summer is their favorite season. Travel picks up, kids are out of school, and adventure is in the focus. For others, juggling it all can lead to overwhelm and counting down the minutes until the kids are back in school. And many worry that they're wasting the days of sunshine. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, to support can make all the difference. BetterHelp makes it easy to get started with quality, fully licensed therapists in the U.S. who follow a strict code of conduct. In fact, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform with over 30 ,000 therapists who've served over 6 million people globally.

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1:02:41And she's like, I can't even tell you. I need you to just like hear this clip that I just found from Channel 12 in Arizona. I wanted to play the clip for you. We could not license it. The fees were like outrageous for the 19 seconds that I wanted. But the clip starts and there's this newscaster and they're like, a doctor takes a dead Marine's brain home with him and then allows his kids to hold it and take pictures with it. What? And then the acre pops in. He's like, yeah, a decision that led to this doctor being reprimanded. But as 12 News investigates, it didn't keep Maricopa County from hiring that very same doctor to work on some of the most high-profile criminal cases.

1:03:20Ashley Flowers:Okay, sorry. I'm, like, letting the shock, like, wash over my body. That's Dr. Shelley. Okay. And this is before he did Laura's autopsy? Yeah, that incident happened before Maricopa County hired him. Right, before they hired him. This was known. Wendy Halloran did a full investigation into Dr. Shelley's past, which revealed that in December 2011, when he was a military medical examiner in Portsmouth, Virginia, He was performing an autopsy on a Marine Corps sergeant who was found dead in his home. Afterward, he was meant to take the brain, considered evidence, to a naval hospital in Virginia for further examination.

1:03:59But as I just told you, that's not what he did. Instead, he took it to his house, took it out of the stock jar, and handed it to his young kids to feel while his wife took pictures.

1:04:14Ashley Flowers:I'm sorry, I'm like literally speechless. I have like zero words, but all the questions. And Dr. Schell, he did bring the brain to the hospital the next day, but the Virginia Medical Board found out about his like little detour from an anonymous caller. And then they launched this like whole investigation. Yeah, I feel like those pictures have to live on like the wife's Facebook somewhere. I have to imagine someone saw the pictures and that's what prompted the call. I don't know. Trust me, we scoured the internet for these pictures. If they're anywhere out there, zero luck. Now, the Virginia Medical Board ended up reprimanding Dr.

1:04:46Shelley. They slapped him with a$2 ,500 fine. That's it? Well, yes and no, because according to Channel 12, the Navy had also launched their own investigation. And though it was found that Dr. Shelley's show and tell didn't affect the brain examination in any way, he was put on desk duty, his hospital privileges were suspended, and he was not allowed to do anything clinical.

1:05:10Ashley Flowers:Great. I feel like this is all semantics. Was he fired or not? The commanding officer of the Naval Hospital in Virginia, quote, recommended that Shelley's privileges be revoked, end quote. That's not an answer. I know, I'm getting there. But the Surgeon General, they had to give the final sign off. Before that could happen, though, Shelley was offered this job with the Maricopa County Medical Examiner's Office in Arizona. He got out before he got fired. Yep. I've seen this in departments you can resign first, right? All he had to do was go get his Arizona medical license approved. So to facilitate that, he wrote this letter to the board about the indiscretion.

1:05:47And I'm actually going to have you read the part where he describes what it is he did, like in his own words.

1:05:52Ashley Flowers:I told my children that I had done an autopsy and retained the brain so that an expert could examine it. My older son and my stepdaughter expressed an interest as they always have with my occupation. So I showed the brain to them and explained what the different parts of the brain are and how it works. I also allowed them to gently feel the brain while wearing plastic mittens. I emphasized respect for the decedent the entire time we examined the brain, which was no more than approximately three minutes. Three minutes. Okay, like, in this context, can we define, like, what respect means? Or what plastic mittens are?

1:06:33Ashley Flowers:That too. I, like, again, maybe there's, like, a medical examiner thing. I don't know. I'm like imagining like oven gloves. Like I have no idea what they're talking about. Now, when questioned about his own past by us, like we had to ask him about this. Dr. Shelley said to us, quote, all the articles speak for themselves and I don't have anything to add. End quote. Either way, he got his Arizona license in a 5-2 board vote. So in June 2013, Maricopa County hired him. And then five months onto the job is when he performed Laura's autopsy. There really aren't any actual real rules over there. I have not told you the half of it.

1:07:13So my spicy little soapbox speech might have seemed maybe out of left field, but it's because I've been living in this. You're going to get there. So Shelly is the only person we have documented as signing off on the ME report. The guy who signed off on Laura's toxicology report was someone else. Norman Wade. And surprise, surprise, he has a checkered past too. According to Channel 12, in the early 90s, before Norman was the laboratory director at the Maricopa County ME's office, he was a crime lab manager for a sheriff's office in California. And while there, he took a gun and another item of evidence out of the evidence room and sold them at a pawn shop.

1:07:58What? He got convicted of grand theft of a firearm in 1995, served 30 days in jail, and was placed on probation. But here's what's wild. Maricopa County hired him as a forensic toxicologist in 1994 while that criminal investigation was unfolding. And then after his arrest, Norman resigned from his post. But five years later, in 1999, he applied to come back to Maricopa, this time as the lab director. Which is like a promotion. On his application, Norman checked a box saying that he had never been convicted of a crime other than minor traffic violation. Even though a fingerprint check revealed his record and the information was sent to the medical examiner's office, he started the job anyway.

1:08:49He went on to testify in major cases for nearly two decades until his past resurfaced.

1:08:57Ashley Flowers:Resurfaced, but it was there the whole time. Yeah, he was investigated for failing to disclose the conviction and ultimately he retired. AKA got out before he could get fired. 2016. And Norman did not respond to our request for comment. Two comments here. Weren't you living in Maricopa County during this time? I was. I was. How hard up for people is Maricopa County? Literally, that was my first thought. And obviously other people's too, because Channel 12, like, asked them for a statement about all this back in 2017. And they said, quote, The Maricopa County office of the medical examiner faces the same challenge that ME offices across the country are encountering.

1:09:40A shortage of forensic pathologists. The pool of qualified medical examiners is approximately 500. Maricopa County alone has 15 positions, 11 of which are filled. We expect to fill those remaining positions with exemplary talent. No employee is perfect. We do not expect perfect pass. What current management does expect is integrity, hard work, and professionalism from the moment a person starts working here. Which, like, listen, I get. I didn't realize, like, things were that dire. I think this is a good call-out for our crime junkies. Like there are some great openings for great people. But to me, it's wild that you can have like a conviction like that.

1:10:22And they're just like so desperate that they're like, we're willing to risk all these future cases. I don't know.

1:10:28Ashley Flowers:Especially because like I feel like everyone we've talked to in this job, in our history, like law enforcement sources always tell us the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. Is past behavior. And like this is pretty clear past behavior to me at least. Listen, it is absolutely possible that Laura's autopsy was done according to protocol with the highest integrity. But everything I just told you is enough, I think, to call that into question. And so if the reason that this case isn't being investigated is because of the ruling, undetermined, undetermined, and that was made while Laura's body was at this medical examiner's office, I think that at the very least, that work should be double-checked.

1:11:10Ashley Flowers:Wait, is that the reason they stopped investigating? Like once the autopsy came back? Yeah, the autopsy came back in May 2014. And then four months later, the case was ruled inactive. Though the file doesn't like it doesn't explicitly make that connection. The concluding report says that based on gathered facts and the undetermined medical findings, the case would no longer be actively investigated. I guess nothing I've heard today has convinced me that we can trust the systems that are at play here. Like, it's not just the ME's office, right? Like, in last week's episode, you mentioned, like, allegations about Gilbert PD destroying police records.

1:11:46Ashley Flowers:Exactly. Yeah. So back in February, the attorney general's office was reviewing those claims and they haven't made any public statements since. Obviously, we reached out to them for comment. But as of this recording, haven't heard back on that either. So here is what I want people to take away from this episode, this story. I think in the absence of an investigation, all people have been left to do is point fingers at Dave. There is an alleged prior history of abuse. There is an order of protection, a pending divorce, all good reasons to be suspicious. But I am also kind of suspicious of a lot of the people in this case who were just never looked into.

1:12:26Police never interviewed any of the guys that I told you Laura was seeing other than Will. They never searched their phones. They never looked at their locations or asked for alibis. If Dave didn't do anything, he should be pissed off too, because perhaps a better investigation could have answered all of the open-ended questions that we have, and no one would be talking about him or his wife's death 13 years later. It is not too late to take another look at this case, but that's not happening. It never has. Laura's nanny told us that she called Gilbert Petey almost every day in the wake of Laura's death to ask if there was anything at all that they could tell her.

1:13:07And she was always turned away. And at a certain point, she was told that Laura had a heart attack. Even then, she didn't know if they really looked into that or if they just were, like, making that assumption. And Laura's neighbor, who called in the suspicious vehicle, told us that he remembers seeing all of the police tape up around Laura's house, but he didn't even know what it was, like, for because police never knocked on his door to ask him anything at all. He didn't even know Laura's name until our reporter told him.

1:13:37Ashley Flowers:Which is bonkers, especially when you think about the fact that you have Will who is telling you he was right there with her. That night. Right before she died. Like, did you see him leave? Did you see any other cars? I know. Did you hear anything? I know. It is wild to me. And by the way, I'm not even sure how thorough the few interviews that Gilbert Peeley did were. Because Emily told us that her call with them only lasted like 10 minutes. They didn't bring her to the station? No, they called her while she was at her training studio, and then they just never followed up again. So she told us she felt like they kind of just pushed Laura's case to the side.

1:14:12Even Laura's dad told us that he has an extremely small amount of firsthand knowledge as to what actually happened to his daughter. He didn't want to do a formal interview for this episode, but he told us that he does want to see justice in her case.

1:14:27Ashley Flowers:I mean, you'd think Gilbert P.D. would have at least taken another look. seven years later when Nick Cordova was murdered and the same man's name is starting to get like thrown around again in conversation. You would think, but like I said, there is no mention at all of Laura in Nick's case file. So I want to end by saying that I cannot give any explanation for why the police seemingly did so little work on Laura's case. But I can say that in the cases of Rachel Hansen and Nick Cordova, Both stories that we've recently covered on this show that are also out of Gilbert P.D. Pressure from the media did get them to release additional records, and both of those cases reportedly remain active to this day.

1:15:15So this is where we need the help of our crime junkies. It is time to break the 12-year silence on Laura Sweetman's case. One glance at Laura's memorial Facebook page, and it's clear to see the starring role she played in so many people's lives, especially the children she saw in her practice who lost their dedicated doctor. She never let any of the stressors in her life keep her from enjoying it. In fact, Laura's presence was so bright and so positive that her loved ones decided to wear colorful clothes to her funeral instead of black because they say that is what Laura would have wanted. So please, you guys, take to social media, tell your friends, tell your neighbors, tell your local news people, and let's get people talking about Laura Sweetman.

1:16:01And let's get the Gilbert Police Department to take notice.

1:16:18Laura's case is no longer being investigated by law enforcement. And if you're hearing this and you want to pass along information to us, You can email tips at audiochuck.com. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkie.com.

1:16:34Ashley Flowers:And you can follow us on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

1:17:05Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. I think Chuck would approve.

1:17:13Ashley Flowers:Okay, Crime Junkies, you know I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now, and I've been listening for years. I think you'll love it too. Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.