Turkey on Trial: Can Courts Control a Nation?

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1:04Ekrem İmamoğlu:Hello, I'm Emily Wither. Thank you for listening to Crossing Continents. I've worked as a correspondent covering Turkey for years and live in Istanbul. I've seen how the legal net is widening here. Opposition mayors, journalists and increasingly performers and entertainers are finding themselves on trial. The government insists its courts are simply applying the law and the judiciary is independent. But critics say President Erdogan is using the courtroom to silence dissent and tighten his grip after two decades in power. I've been investigating how Turkey's justice system came to work this way and what's left of freedom of speech.

1:45Ekrem İmamoğlu:That's what this edition of Crossing Continents is about.

1:52Ekrem İmamoğlu:Oh my goodness, I cannot believe how many police there is. Is this normal? This is our normal.

2:02Can I ask why you came today? I'm Daria. I'm here to support Deniz and demand his release because it is actually illegal what they are doing to Deniz. It is not illegal to make jokes. It is not illegal to say what you believe. It is not illegal to say, make some jokes as a comedian.

2:22Ekrem İmamoğlu:I'm outside Istanbul's main courthouse. It's a large multi-story complex with a vast marble atrium connecting endless corridors. These days, it feels more like a prison surrounded by metal barricades and a ring of police. I've come here a lot over the years, following court cases in Turkey, and the cast of people appearing keeps widening. opposition mayors, students and today a popular comedian called Deniz Guktas.

2:54Ekrem İmamoğlu:They are chanting freedom for art, freedom for humour and freedom for Deniz. A month earlier, Deniz was on stage.

3:06Ekrem İmamoğlu:He looks small at the front of an outdoor amphitheatre in Istanbul. He's dressed in black beside a giant model of his own severed head, backed by lavish red curtains. The 32-year-old pokes fun at Turkey's president Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who's ruled the country now for 23 years. In one joke, Deniz compares Erdogan to a grumpy neighbour and describes how he's evolved from a shy dictator to one who is at peace with his own identity. For 90 minutes, he takes aim at everything, Society, religion, the jailed opposition, the kind of material that in today's Turkey gets you in trouble. He even laughs about that culture of fear.

3:52Ekrem İmamoğlu:All was fine until his show was posted online. First, the authorities here tried to block clips of it, citing national security. It didn't stop it going viral. It had struck a nerve with Turkish society. Millions of people are completely disappointed, hopeless and sad. What's happening to the country? A sharp regime change, full of oppression. We are on a survival mode in our daily lives, struggling to pay our rents, pay our bills, to study. And Denis Goktaş gives all our feelings and problems in his jokes. He spoke for a lot of what young people are feeling right now. Exactly, exactly. He became a symbol of the youth now.

4:36Ekrem İmamoğlu:Not everyone found the jokes funny. Many found them outright offensive, and the chief prosecutor's office said hundreds of complaints were filed. I asked Daria, one of his supporters, about that. Yes, offensive joke, but it is a joke. It was not insulting the religious people, it was not insulting the religion, it was not insulting the ordinary people's rights or beliefs. But I believe he's now in the court because he called Erdogan openly as authoritarian leader. That is the main case.

5:20Ekrem İmamoğlu:When I saw the clips online, I got hold of his number and I sent Denis a text asking him for an interview. I'm not sure he ever read it, and I suspected there might not be much time anyway before he'd be arrested.

5:37Ekrem İmamoğlu:I'm Emily Wither, and for Crossing Continents, I'm in Turkey. I've been living and working in the country for years, and I've seen firsthand how the fight for this often polarised country's future is playing out in its courts. This is a story of three courtrooms recorded across one summer. I've covered hundreds of opposition politicians who are facing legal battles or are in jail here. And increasingly, it's not just the political opposition. It's anyone who challenges the government's idea of how the country should be and how its people should behave.

6:18Ekrem İmamoğlu:On July 2nd, Deniz Guttas was arrested. and the very next day I was at the courthouse. Inside, supporters of the comedian crowded the corridor to hear the ruling. They're told Denis will be held in jail as he waits for a trial. The charge is insulting the president and publicly inciting hatred and hostility. He's not alone. Almost 59 ,000 people are under investigation in Turkey for insulting the president or the state. That's according to Justice Ministry figures published in March this year. More than 800 of them are children. The crowd have now come out of the court. They've walked down six flights of stairs with huge numbers of police trailing them.

7:08Ekrem İmamoğlu:There is a lot of anger here, a lot of disappointment. Some other entertainers have been handed long suspended sentences. A warning not to re-offend. Others face travel bans. Outside the court, I meet an actor who was subject to one. My name is Cem Yit Üzümoğlu. A year and a half ago, I was here inside, where now Deniz is waiting in a car. I am also in the board member of the Actors' Union of Turkey. And a year and a half ago, we have been protesting, making announcements for the protest and the ongoing situation in Turkey. So that's why I became a target. without committing any crime they try to create a crime and they are still trying the court is still on but there is no result yet do people have trust in the judicial system in Turkey do they trust that the trials here are free and fair no I don't think people trust no one can trust because the judicial system is a tool of the government to oppress people.

8:15That's how they are using it.

8:18Ekrem İmamoğlu:I asked Daria how she feels about the ruling. I'm angry. I'm simply, simply angry because they try to feel everybody insecure in this way. They are trying to give a psychological war over society. So it's not surprising, but we will not normalize this. Thousands of people are in jail in Turkey including political leaders and journalists. Tomorrow I can be jailed.

8:52Hi, nice to meet you. Morning.

8:54Ekrem İmamoğlu:How are you doing? It's very early the following Monday morning and I'm off to another court case, the most well-known of all of them. The long journey from one side of Istanbul to the other begins crossing continents from Asia to Europe by ferry. You? Yeah, good, thanks. Tired.

9:18Ekrem İmamoğlu:Furkan Karabay is a Turkish court reporter. He's heading to the court too, and I've brought a translator.

9:30Ekrem İmamoğlu:So he's in court on three separate charges today? Yes. We should probably go through actually. It looks like the boat is nearly here. You might recognise that name, Ekrem İmamoğlu, the opposition's popular mayor of Istanbul. His arrest in March 2025 sparked mass protests across Turkey. Since then, he's been in prison facing charges from corruption to espionage, with prosecutors seeking sentences that add up to more than 2 ,000 years. He's also Erdogan's main rival. Polls suggest Imamoglu is the most likely candidate to defeat the current president. His arrest was part of a wider crackdown on the opposition that swept up hundreds of people.

10:20Ekrem İmamoğlu:I'm on my way to hear Imamoglu's defence. Furkan covers these cases every day. After the ferry, we board a minibus. to take us to the most remote district on the far western edge of the city. Critics say it's no coincidence Imamoglu's trial is so hard to get to. The government says it's simply that the prison has big enough courtrooms. It's Europe's largest high-security jail and is surrounded by barbed wire and fields of cheery sunflowers. Outside a checkpoint are several courtrooms, which is where we're dropped off. This is Silivri. And three times I've been here. You've been held in here three times?

11:05Yes.

11:06Ekrem İmamoğlu:Lawyers and journalists covering these cases are often arrested too, including Furkan. He's been detained several times for publicly spreading disinformation. He switches to Turkish. I stayed here three times. One of them was seven months. At this point, I consider this place like my home. Nearly 40 ,000, 50 ,000 people stays here. We have one room cells here. People stay in their rooms, small rooms. They also have bigger rooms, and there are around 40 people. But now the population is so much in the prison. There are 70, 80 people staying. And some of them sleep next to the restroom, so they're on the ground.

12:00So it's over-perpidated, really. You are either super lonely or you have to stay with 80 people in one room.

12:10Ekrem İmamoğlu:Over the years, I've seen many journalists arrested here for doing their jobs, and most of the media is now state-controlled. I asked Furkan, who works for one of the very few remaining Turkish independent media outlets, how the cases are being covered. The government-aligned media basically looks out for what judges are saying. But us, as an independent, we look what the lawyers are saying, what proof is there, what kind of documents we can show. That's our difference. Should we go in? I probably have to put this away.

12:57Ekrem İmamoğlu:We go through security and inside it's sterile, crowded and chaotic. A small cafeteria serves tea and toast. The police block the doors as seats quickly fill up and supporters of the jailed mayor spill into the corridor. The first hearing of the day has just wrapped up. You're not allowed to record inside the court. when Imamoglu arrived he had a big smile on his face and there was a standing ovation from the supporters that had crowded into the small courtroom to watch the proceedings there was a huge round of applause and many of them were chanting president Imamoglu he told the court how did the judiciary system in turkey come to look like this Imamoglu faces at least five separate cases plus further investigations.

13:52Ekrem İmamoğlu:The one I just heard is an espionage case where he's accused of sharing the details of millions of Istanbul residents with foreign intelligence services. Among the crowd, observers from foreign governments also file out of the court. I grab the European Parliament Rapporteur for Turkey, Nacho Sanchez Amor. Turkey insists that its judicial system is independent, that the courts are free and fair and that they are following the rule of law. You've come here to observe these cases. What do you make of that? There is no any hint of independent judiciary in Turkey. Not any hint. I have the list of the judge that has been removed only in the cases of Imamoglu, meaning if a judge acts independently, professionally, he's going to be punished.

14:39There are so many cases. There are so many examples.

14:46Ekrem İmamoğlu:It's really hard to find a judge to speak to you. In fact, in general, it's getting harder to interview anyone in Turkey, such as the fear of being publicly critical. To understand how the courts are run now, I need to take you back to 2017. That year, Erdogan won a referendum that reshaped the constitution, outwent the parliamentary system, in came an all-powerful presidency. Erdogan said it would replace unstable coalition governments with decisive one-man leadership. It handed him sweeping new powers, including over the courts. The board that hires and disciplines every judge and prosecutor, the HSK, was radically overhauled.

15:31Ekrem İmamoğlu:And now the president picks some of its members and a parliament run by Erdogan's political party picks the rest.

16:04Family Meals feeds four for just$35. Stock up at Whole Foods Market. You might drink it every day, but did you know that the history of tea is steeped in skullduggery, colonialism, and industrial espionage? I'm Greg Jenner, host of You're Dead to Me. We're the comedy show that takes history seriously. And in our latest episode, we spill the tea on tea. Join us to unpack the ancient Chinese origins of the drink and find out how it became the national drink of modern Britain. Listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcasts or watch us on YouTube.

16:44Ekrem İmamoğlu:So we're definitely recording. Is everybody ready? Are you ready, Aisha? How's it done? How's it done? Thank you. Tamam. I think your connection is OK. I did manage to track down a retired judge who was willing to be interviewed. Aisha Sarazu-Palavan was a judge for more than three decades and now works as an independent lawyer in the coastal city of Izmir. When the 2017 changes were introduced, she criticised them in a newspaper interview and learnt the hard way that disagreeing with the government has consequences. At the time I gave that interview, I was the general secretary of the judges' union and a national newspaper had requested an interview from me to explain the consequences of this constitutional amendment on the judiciary.

17:36Everything I said has really come true, step by step. I said that appointments and authorizations in judiciary would all be done based on politics. Because the judiciary is really being used in the country to change and regulate society. But that's not its fundamental duty.

17:56Ekrem İmamoğlu:It's to restore peace in society, and it's based on the rule of law. A disciplinary investigation was immediately opened against Aysha, and she was eventually hit with a penalty. She wasn't paid for several weeks. She decided to fight it. I took that salary deduction penalty to the European Court of Human Rights. Finally, they ruled my human rights had been violated. But despite that ruling, my requests were rejected every time. In other words, they didn't implement the ruling. But I still stand by what I said and what I went through shows that every sentence I uttered turned out to be the correct observation.

18:37That's why the investigations were carried out in order to pull people like me out of the field, to make them fed up and make them give up.

18:47Ekrem İmamoğlu:But her problems didn't end there. Many people who claimed that they were not given a fair trial started a hunger strike. Because of these hunger strikes, I shared a few posts on Twitter. Then at the end of that, another investigation was opened against me. They suspended me from my court for about seven months. They prevented me from doing my job, which I love. I experienced a personal breaking point. I've heard lawyers complain about judges being taken off cases or reassigned if the authorities don't like how they are handling the case. Ayesha was eventually forced to move to a different city.

19:29Ekrem İmamoğlu:And is that something that happens often here in Turkey? Judges are moved if they find themselves disagreeing or in trouble with the system? Yeah, it exists. It's not just me. many of my colleagues have been and continue to be reassigned to other positions against their will, following disciplinary or official investigations. The number of judges and prosecutors with 25-30 years of experience is very small now. So I've heard that a lot. Turkish lawyers increasingly voice frustration that judges are young and inexperienced. And I looked at the numbers myself. Since 2016, over 4 ,000 judges and prosecutors have been sacked.

20:17Ekrem İmamoğlu:But in spite of this, today there are more than twice as many on the bench than there were 10 years ago. One lawyer who heads up a firm here told me, we now have an army of judges and many of them are new. A few weeks later, it's a national holiday. The courts are closed and many people are out marking an important day. There are thousands of people marching across the first of the three Istanbul bridges that connects the cities European and Asian side. They're walking over the Bosphorus Strait, one of the world's busiest shipping lanes. Everybody's got Turkish flags, they're wearing red t-shirts which say July 15 on them.

21:05Ekrem İmamoğlu:I've headed to a memorial to mark the 10th anniversary of July 15, 2016. That was the night a faction of the military tried and failed to topple Erdogan's government. Tanks rolled onto this bridge in Istanbul, and many ordinary people came out and stopped them. And so much of the modern story of Turkey's judiciary runs back to this night. This day is called Democracy and National Unity Day. It's presented as a day of remembrance, rather than a party political event. But it doesn't quite feel like one. Watching the crowds, it feels as though only part of the country has come out to market. The crowd is clearly largely made up of government supporters.