How Jack Rubin Scaled Purdy & Figg to 1 in 20 Homes with One Product

0:00We now have about one in 20 households in the UK using Purdy and FIG coming up to 6-7 % now and half a million active members.

0:12So yeah, welcome to another episode of DTC Diaries. We're joined by Jack Rubin today, co-founder at Purdy and Fig. I think the way I would describe you guys and yourself, sharp operational thinking, ruthless focus, and that fusion of brand and performance-led mentality. So welcome to the show. Thank you. Good to be here. Been chasing you down for a while. We got there. probably the hardest guest to to get on it's been a slog yeah tough man's pinned down but yeah very excited to have you here i think i echo what luke says i always use you as a reference point when talking to other brands around just amazing like operation and like simple how fast and like keeping things focused and simple can be because i know we've had a lot of conversations around that in the past so excited to dig into some of that throughout the focus yes yeah it's your pinned LinkedIn Twitter post as well, isn't it?

1:06Around the values of the business and one of them being around Ruthless Focus. So yeah, but I guess for people that don't know you or don't know the brand, just give us a quick synopsis, backstory, the brand up until this point and we'll get into some more tactical stuff after that. Sure, yeah. So I'm the CEO at Purdy and Fig and one of the co-founders. So we started six years ago now. um it all came out of my my mum called purdy and her great friend called charlotte fig who started making cleaning products in the kitchen at home and they were just making products they wanted to use but over time their friends would start to say oh can you make us some and they're like we'll do better than that we'll teach you how to make it so they start to run these workshops to teach their friends how to make cleaning products and my brother and i were both entrepreneurs and in kind of a dead end in terms of what we wanted to do next.

2:01And so we saw kind of the passion and interest from mum's friends. And I kind of saw early signs of product market fit in the concept she was working on. So we said to her, mum, can we launch this as a brand? You know, are you planning to do anything with it? And she was like, no, no, I'm just doing this as like a hobby, you know, and I'm going to keep doing it, but please go ahead. We can launch brand. So then in 2020, we started the business. We hired a PhD chemist as our first move, raised a bit of seed capital and spent two years developing our formula for counter clean, which has now got a patent.

2:44And it was a long slog to get there because it's a really complex bit of science to try and do what we were doing with essential oils and surfactants in a really concentrated form that you can add to water to create cleaning products at home. And so yeah, we launched CounterClean in the end of 2022. And then we've been lucky enough to go on a great journey since. We now have about one in 20 households in the UK using Purdy and Fade coming up to six, seven percent now, and half a million active members. So yeah, we're very lucky and fortunate. Yeah, you've got amazing family penetration on my side, for sure.

3:26I think every single household in my family probably has your product, including us, which is, yeah, I can, it's crazy that level of penetration though. Like when you put it like the sheer percentage of homes you've got into, I guess that's great to hear, but also maybe a bit scary when you're thinking about growth into the future. so Nespresso is at 18 % household penetration so that's always been kind of where I think we can get to in the UK as like a benchmark a great brand with pretty widespread appeal a bit overrated though Nespresso Nespresso but they just they did a great job of making home coffee decent.

4:17Remember when they first kind of, it must have been when we were a bit younger, but remember they first kind of popped off and everybody kind of, those little like espresso pods machines. Yeah, remember that whole ride. But that's interesting. You've still got a long way to go then, I guess, through that. If you make the right moves. Yeah. Yeah. I saw you spoke about, you were speaking to a seasoned operator, DTC founder, who had gone from your scale to multiple nine figures. one thing he said is to continue to scale, you need to be making ruthless big swings every year to become more efficient and retain efficiency.

4:53What was that big swing for you this year? Yeah, it's very true. So every single year, you're going to see your CPMs go up 10 % at least. And then you're going into the next, let's call it the next 10 % of your audience. So I say your cat's going up 20 % a year because you times those two things together, right? So you need to grow 20 % a year. You therefore need to take a swing every year that improves your efficiency by 40%. That's essentially how you have to think about growing a business. 40 % year on year improvement just to grow 20 % year on year. So yeah, you need to take big swings.

5:40So last year, our big swing was creative volume. We went really hard on that and built a team, a big team, before it was really a thing to do around creative volume and a process. That was really powerful. This year, it's really been top of funnel. So introducing TV, radio, podcasts, and YouTube awareness spend at a pretty serious level, but measuring it properly, testing it properly to help grow the pool of customers we can go after. Yeah, we've really honed in on the brand this year. It's all right. And then you, yeah, you've spoken a little bit about this, but what success have you seen there?

6:23I think you shared some interesting insights about how new customer acquisition over time was improving. What are some of the key learnings and takeaways from going through that process? And I guess what advice do you have for founders out there that are maybe looking to bring that into their marketing mix?

6:45I guess my main bit of advice for founders looking to scale new customer acquisition is around focus in terms of what channel they're using. So what I see a lot of early stage founders do is diversify too quickly across channels. what we found was just focusing on one one area and becoming really really good at it is much more powerful um actually we we diversify too early even as well ourselves and that was still we were we probably started diversifying at 20 million and that was still too early we weren't ready yet to really understand how new channels contribute and that's focusing on meta i'm assuming like everyone should be obsessing around that until it's like a system that can run Not necessarily meta, it depends on your business.

7:30So meta influences or search, I would say. Search shopping are kind of the three buckets, depending on whether you're demand capture, demand creation.

7:42Yeah.

7:46But yeah, become really good at one thing before spreading yourself too thin. Interesting. What did that process of becoming? you mentioned i want to dissect both the the creative team build because i think that's really interesting to talk about because um i i always use you guys as a reference so just just when people ask me like what's an example of a brand who are doing creative internally at volume incredibly well i always reference you guys because i think you're the sheer and you've kind of pivoted this more recently from what you said the other day but the sheer volume and quality and then the growth that came as a factor of that um that you guys are pumping out is crazy how did you how did that evolve over that period of that year like how did you build that out what was the kind of approach to that i think the big unlock with the with the creative ops was seeing it as a funnel um and every stage of the funnel needs needs to be addressed um on its own so um since you've got you've got asset creation at the start of the funnel which is you know ugc videos you're doing location shoots you're doing studio shoots etc etc it might be even AI now at the beginning of the funnel.

8:59Then you've got script writing, then you've got video editing, and then you've got upload into the account and testing as your kind of your main functions. And then it was just essentially adding process and volume into each area. So as we added more script writers, we added more shoots and more production people, and then we added more video editors and essentially just looked at where things were slowing down the process and just adding heads. So I got to a stage where we had six video editors, sorry, and lots of different script writers. And I think we did, last year we did 180 shoots. If you can imagine that.

9:43So it's just, it's like, you know, multiple shoots a week, every single week. so um yeah just a really simple funnel really that you just have to attack individually you spoke about script writers there specifically are you isolating creative strategy and script writing or do you see that role which traditionally i guess more in an agency setting the creative strategist would be building the creative strategy but then also doing more executional things like concepting scripting how are you approaching that uh yeah we we've merged them um so our script writers are script creative strategists as well i remember you talking about how you onboard script writers into the business you just get them writing a ridiculous amount of scripts like you're hiring from big agency weren't you yeah yeah we took the approach of getting really creative people from big agencies who are used to doing big brand assets they have the creative mind and we did a whole bunch of creative tests um in the interview stage which uh you speak to us drachis now uh you know they still they still talk about their interviews um you know me sitting there and asking them how many uses can you get out of a brick in 60 seconds and then you basically plot their answers on a graph of of usefulness and how rare the answers are and you basically get a sense of how creative they are those kind of tests um so we we pick people out of agencies but they were used to working on literally like one part of one project for a year or 18 months so that the way they thought about creative strategy was just just slow and different so baptism of fire like the way to deal with that was to get them to to i said you can you can write about one angle and one persona and you need to write you know x many scripts a week 30 a week or something and that and you could only do that one angle so it was just forcing them into this very narrow tight brief and they had to think of every single way of writing that script first and getting used to doing that and then do it for the next angle and so on and it was just a great way of training them I love that and I remember Ollie mentioned that to me and that was probably end of last year and we kind of had this at times you know some people come into the business and they they're able to just produce volume and produce at speed but then a lot of the time it's not the case and i think we went through an evolution of how we onboarded our creative strategist where we were too slow and i think it's a great learning where we made that flip as well to like from day one rather than oh you know we're going to introduce you to the concept of this and you know watching videos to literally just execution volume speed you've got x amount of time to do this amount of scripts because i again with creatives as a quote did this documentary years ago about this artist and he said you know you never p you never finish a piece of art artists don't finish a piece of art they just decide to stop and i think it's the same with this so you need to almost create uh the boundaries of where they can work within and get them used to the behaviors of working at speed and scale so yeah those constraints are really really powerful as well um constraints in general are powerful always um uh but yeah it's i remember reading a um an article about a photography competition and i think i did i tell you about this but i think yeah i mean i was done study wasn't it yeah so they they got they got two groups and one group they were like you need to spend three months trying to get one photo that's amazing and you know it was just just try what that one photo the other group they said um you take as many photos as you possibly can as a way of a way of um entering this photography competition and you know in almost every case the group that were taking loads and loads and loads of photos produced not only the best photo but like the top five photos versus the group trying to perfect and it was just that iteration and learning of producing so many and seeing what worked, what lighting worked, the angles.

13:51And these were professional photographers even. So they already had the knowledge and information. That really stuck with me, that study. Feedback loop is shortening that feedback loop, right? And I imagine that's the same with those people who are coming from big agency. They've had the feedback loop stretch over like 18 months. So to come into a setting where you get data day one when you make an artist. They love it as well. Must be so refreshing. They really enjoy that part of it, I find. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, the quantity creates the quality. And I guess we've almost gone through another iteration of that with Andromeda and recent updates to Andromeda and how creative similarity now impacts reach, cost fatigue is changing.

14:28How are you thinking about volume differently now versus last year? I'm a bit slow on this now because I'm not as tight to, you know, creative, that level of tactical creative. I know that we're slowing down volume a bit in order to focus more on quality, more because diversity is so important. And so it's just being a bit more intentional about how we create those diverse assets. So fewer, slightly fewer, still a lot, but slightly fewer, more diverse assets. um so that's just one small change we made recently but i think i think uh obviously the the pursuit of more diversity from a brand perspective often comes from a from a slowdown in reach and in like a an inability to still grow we did a podcast the other day and with happy the happy stack guys and you mentioned during that episode how your audience demographic has shifted over the last sort of eight 12 to 18 months or maybe even a short time frame yeah through some of this other off channel activation um it'd be good to hear a bit about that i know you've mentioned that it's gone from like exclusively for like 40 plus house women basically and now you've really got strong penetration in that 30 to 40 demographic yeah do you where do you think that's been driven by is that off a meta um some of this top of funnel activity a bit of a combination of the two so i think it started with our branding changes um so we did a rebrand in September 24, which just brought the brand, made the brand a bit more modern.

16:10Still got the same idea. It was subtle in some ways, but like... It was subtle. It was like a subtle elevation, I guess you'd probably call it. Yeah, exactly. We didn't want to mess with the boat too much. But yeah, and we wanted to keep our existing audience. But we did a huge segmentation study into our customer base that was incredibly detailed, looking at all the characteristics. why they were buying and the different segments of the cleaning market and how we our customer base matched to the wider demographic of the country and we just found some really interesting insights about who our customer was and we then created a bit of a bullseye of that customer called Victoria and from there we did our rebrand and the reason we chose Victoria's group was that they had the biggest halo effect.

17:04Not only did they make up about 25 % of the country, but they had the biggest halo effect on the other groups. So if we got Victoria, then we would also get 10 % of nurturing controllers. You won't know what that means, but they're kind of these different terms or 10 % of sustainability people and whatever else. So we kind of stacked up the town from there. And then we just ruthlessly kind of went after that core audience with our rebrand and top of funnel channels. So we moved into doing radio last year as a first test. And then we tested TV this year at quite decent volume. And then we've gone into podcasts and YouTube awareness quite heavily as well.

17:49So that's brought a whole load of additional people in market for us. So you can see our awareness and consideration data has jumped significantly. and then we use that to calculate what you call an in-market audience which is essentially how many people are aware of you and are considering to buy you that you haven't already converted and we track that because we know how that links to our customer base so if we drive that up we're able to drive our customer base up like a leading indicator on future conversions yeah we know we know what percentage of that audience we've historically converted yeah and so it's just about keeping those ratios relatively stable over time um and it's allowed us to yeah push into a wider group yeah i think on the brand piece it's it's really interesting because i was actually having a chat with a with a founder the other day and the way that i think different brands look at purdy and fig in the market is is almost this idea of you know they look at purdium fig as a lifestyle brand versus a brand that's heavy problem and solution us versus them which is which is an interesting uh insight i'd love to know like how you view i don't think they used to by the way i think that's been something that happened in the last eight 12 months or so exactly that's what i want to almost tap into because i think it's it's interesting how you use positioning um through your branding you know i've heard you talk about with the the most expensive cleaning product but the cheapest candle things like this how are you how are you thinking about that what i guess that what was that journey like over the last nine to twelve months as you say to to get to the point where brands view you in that way um it requires quite a lot of investment um so it's like put your money where your mouth is basically um so you need to elevate the creative you need to elevate the design you need to invest in the packaging and then you need to invest in channels that aren't dr because dr will never create lifestyle dr will convert really efficiently and really well but ultimately we've seen the data on our awareness and consideration um it it does some but not a lot of considerate in fact dr can negatively affect consideration um we've seen that in some of our studies so like essentially piss people off with advertising right yeah too much frequency high frequency and and message offers and wrong messages so you've got to basically change your mindset but i mean i'm a dr guy from from my background but i had to i i'm yeah i accepted the first principles thinking that you can only convert someone if they are in market and considering to buy you.

20:44And once you accept that, you start to understand marketing theory a bit better and you then have to change your mindset and commit to a new way of thinking. So I think I wouldn't recommend doing it too early because if you start making those investments before you can afford it, it can become problematic. We've seen the examples of brand-centric D2C companies blow a load of money and not do very well. I think you need to get the balance right between the two and introduce it, you know, in an affordable way when you've got the cash to do so. And so you don't think it's possible to be viewed as a lifestyle brand unless you are looking at those bigger brand activations, TV ads, you know, more brand focused campaigns.

21:35You can, you can amongst a small group of people, yeah. And, but it still requires investment, you know, making good creative is not cheap at all. Like a good piece of video creative is going to set you back 30, 40 ,000 pounds. That's the truth. And I'd love to know like how you're approaching that balance of brand and elevation, especially now where, you know, with the introduction of VO3, now Sora 2, how are you thinking about AI within your creative mix and how that could potentially, I guess, impact that elevation of the type of creative that you're producing. So we're using it definitely for the hiring creative.

22:19It's really helping us push into concepts that would used to cost maybe a couple hundred thousand to make and we can make them 50 ,000. So it's supplementing real production and a lot of great thinking on the creative direction side with some AI for the imagination and for the ability to just capture those particularly odd shots. So we're doing an amazing Christmas campaign at the moment about our Christmas scent, Frankincense and Myrrh. And the whole concept is Santa Claus comes down the chimney and he forgets to deliver presents because he spots a bottle of Purdy and Fig on the kitchen counter and just starts cleaning all night.

22:59So it's whenever I'm still Christmas. But to actually do that, we had to use quite a lot of AI to like get the reindeers and have them coming down. Cause that's like, that would be really expensive to do in real life. So it made that video possible. It still costs us a lot of money to make, but probably a third or a quarter as much as it would have. And are you using it at all for more of your DR focused creative? Or is it more just for the more elevated? I think we're using it to help with script writing and concept writing. And I think we're using it to swap out hooks and B-roll and that kind of thing.

23:39But we're not using it to like create full ads because we just haven't found it to be effective at doing that yet. Yeah, agreed. I think we're definitely a way off that. It's definitely, we're doing a lot of the similar stuff there, like hook variations, B-roll, but still haven't found it to be anywhere near as close in terms of outperforming real creative. I want to come back to that, um, that, that shift in brand perception. Cause I think it's really interesting. Um, cause I would also say that it's the, the, the brands become like almost like more aspiration and luxury over a period of time.

24:18I've followed the journey for like the whole path of growth. And it feels like when I've seen the TV ad and I hear the, the radio and podcast as I heard one this morning, actually on my football podcast. Why is it always on the football world? someone's buying that athletic podcast athletic podcast is quite like um it's like it's like paid for journalism so i think it is quite like an aspirational audience maybe that's fine maybe they're hoping in your buyers like listening in the background whilst the partner's like yes exactly football chat you know it's new market potentially yeah um got me um but but the the delivery of that um radio format the presentation of that tv ad is super elevated it's like you're trying to make the routine of cleaning like sexy almost and like and i think that's a really interesting like thing people are trying to do across the across those more boring routine categories now how did you start from purely brand work to build that concept or did you pull learnings from say a meta from a messaging perspective um i guess did you start ground up from from research or did you yeah use some of the data you've got you had previously yeah Yeah.

25:29So with brand work, we've gone really hard on the vision. So from the beginning, when we started, the idea was transform cleaning from a chore to a joy. That's always been the brand's vision. So the insight there was that my mum and Charlotte had basically had to use cleaning products their whole lives and they never liked a single product they used for 30, 40 years. And so the real concept behind the brand is how can we change the experience of the products so that you just enjoy cleaning a little bit more. There was a famous quote by Shirley Conran, who recently passed away, which was, we'd all rather lie on the sofa than clean under it.

26:08So no one, you know, it's a thing you kind of just have to do. But if you're going to have to do it, you may as well have a product that you actually enjoy and like using. And we were always tackling that experience with lovely packaging, amazing scents and simplicity. So in the cleaning aisle, it was, you know, 15 products for different surfaces and we created one simple product that can do everything. So it's demystifying it a bit, making it, and then decluttering your home as well. So all the elements of it were just about enjoying the product a bit more. And so we just wanted to take that idea and get it into brand advertising.

26:47Because I think it's a powerful idea and I think it's a different idea in terms of the cleaning category itself. It's obsessed with data and stats. kill 99.9 % or if you look at your recent fairy ad you know this now is 12x times concentrated or it's um you know you get an extra 20 % in the bottle it's it's very kind of functional and um and that all comes out of basically post-world war ii mad men style advertising agencies that realized if they told women um that they were using um certain products in that had certain properties it made them feel like they were looking after their home properly which elevated their status um and so it's all come out of basically uh um yeah advertising theory this this this way cleaning products are sold um and if you don't know if you've ever noticed but it's it's very male so yeah the way clean was advertised arm and hammer Mr.

27:48Bang Mystically like you know it's all men helping women essentially with their their task which was like the advertising idea at the time and we just wanted to completely buck against all of that and do something very different it's really interesting because like that stats like leverage of stats it's like do you think that has like a life cycle because obviously it worked for a period of time and then it almost like becomes normalised in like an expected baseline A bit like how you've, like, sustainability was, like, a core marketing angle early 2000s. Like, you could build a brand on solely the idea of being, like, eco-friendly.

28:27Or natural, yeah. And, like, that's just not, you can't, it's like a secondary tertiary USP, you know. I guess that could be, you could kind of see that similar, I guess. Like, it should just be expected that it kills 99 % of germs in your house, right? It's cleaning, cleaning products. So, interesting to see how you've kind of latched onto that. um yeah i think it does go it advertising definitely goes in cycles but the context and culture changes yeah so i think people now want to connect much more to their products we've seen the kind of move into lifestyle across loads of categories and that just hasn't really properly happened in cleaning yet so it was always going to happen eventually and we're just i think at the forefront of that that change um and that's contributed directly to that shift in in age do you think that's contributed directly to that shift in age demographic of your customer base as you've managed to successfully execute on that kind of aspirational sort of i think i think that's right yeah i think that's right yeah i think just sticking to our our vision and getting that out there has really helped makes sense i want to touch on measurement of those because you ran a really extensive detailed house test on tv yeah and tv is very intimidating for brands partly for investment but partly from a from when you've lived and breathed direct response the idea that you can't get feedback in a day is terrifying right um it's also terrible from a cash flow perspective so when you run a tv ad you have to buy the media something like eight weeks before you need to reserve the slot 12 weeks before then you need to pay all up front eight weeks before so if you're spending like let's just say notionally half a million quid or a million quid on a TV ad.

30:07It's a million quid eight weeks before it goes live. Almost no payback straight away. Most payback comes after six months, let's say. So you're basically a million quid down for like nine months. Just sat there staring at your house dashboard. Like, please, please, show up, show up. So brutal from a cash flow. You need to have the money to do it. Yeah, makes sense. Sorry. So yeah, how did you approach measurement of that? And then I guess it'd be great to hear how that's then played out from like an impact perspective? So we ran TV regionally to understand essentially how the areas that we ran the TV ad performed over time against the areas that didn't, because we knew there wouldn't be a direct response payback from the TV activity.

30:51So we set up a house test where we just took the region where the TV ads were running and we didn't run any other tests in the whole period. We ran the TV ad and then we did a post-treatment window, which is essentially how long you keep measuring the latent effect for we did that for the longest i think house have ever done it we did it for six months yeah um so essentially keeping all variables the same for six months in a region and just seeing how many customers came in in that region over six months versus the region we didn't run the tv in did you homogenize the regions like was did you use any like post codes or was it just a city um we yeah we use postcodes postcodes homogenized yeah makes sense So what we found, which was really interesting.

31:34So first, while the TV ads were live, which was about a month, we saw some customers come in, but it was pretty horrendous, right? You're talking like below 0.1 returns. Were you nervous? Not really, because I expected it. I expected it. And our brand director was like reassuring me that, you know, it was absolutely fine. So yeah, 0.1 return, really, really poor. you're kind of thinking, this is not great. As we kept running the post-treatment window, though, we found that more customers were coming in every week that we got further out from the activity than while the activity was live. So let's say we got about 500 customers a week during the activity from it.

32:18In the two weeks after activity, it was 700 customers a week. In the seventh and eighth week it was 900 customers a week in the ninth and tenth week it probably stayed the same and then it kind of leveled out I can't remember the exact number but and it just kept going at that level for the whole six months so the overall ICAC was just coming down and down and down and down eventually we switched off because the test starts to lose significance as you get too far away from the event but we did some modeling and basically figured out that over like a year or two based on some pretty conservative assumptions about how that changes over time that incremental customer again uh it's like the by far the most efficient activity we run um so it's it's pretty pretty crazy but it costs and it's and it's nerve-wracking and the cash flow is hard but the payback is i think pretty substantial and across those three channels tv right did you do the same across podcast and radio yeah we've done the same across all three hierarchy of the three tv well podcast is actually like is acting more as a DR channel for us even though we run the brand ad so that's been really interesting and then yeah TV's better than radio but radio's still still strong and then YouTube we're running at the moment with a house to compare to TV and so far it's very similar makes sense but like YouTube and connected TV stuff pretty bullish on YouTube in general I just think there's so much inventory to be had there that it's like, if you can get it to work.

33:56Yeah, and CPMs are amazing. It's got so much upside. It's just brands don't give it enough time and like stick with it and really focus on creative. That's super interesting. So I guess you just use that, just double down from there. Like just... Yeah, I mean, it's just like working out how much to invest in terms of both cashflow and also percentage of marketing mix and just do it being sensible, but also trying to invest in the future because there's obviously a P &L hit. And you need to factor that into the way you run your business. So yeah, just trying to keep it going. What's really interesting is if you keep doing it, so we've been doing it a year now, and what happens every time you run the activity, you're essentially, the way you see it actually come through in your data is your baseline organic.

34:45So your baseline organic coming from brand search. Direct referral traffic. Direct referral, that kind of thing. it kind of just jumps up and then it just stays there and then it jumps up again and it stays there and what i've been looking at is like if we kept running this for you know another two or three years at the same jump up rates in organic baseline in year kind of three and four of our financial plan we could be getting like half of the customers we're acquiring now for free um which which would transform our pnl i mean we would be insanely profitable if that started happening so um yes it costs and it's an investment but if you actually plan over a five-year period of how it can how it can change your business it's pretty substantial very cool really cool yeah i mean i'd love to touch on go back to people because i know you've scaled how many people do you have in house now 70 odd um so we've got our own factory which makes it uh so a bit more complicated um because we run a we run a mixing and bottling line factory um but we've got about 60 people in london 30 in our factory and then probably 20 international cool and what roughly does that in in terms of your operate the operations and marketing what What does that team look like right now?

36:12In the marketing side? Yeah. So we essentially have a brand team and a growth team. And I've got a leader in each that sit on my leadership team and exec group and report into me. And in our growth team, we have retention, which includes, which is basically email and SMS. then we have product um a product team which is um like more of a typical structure of a product team you'd find a um genuine product company like a twitter or revolute or something in terms of product managers and scrum teams doing working in groups with designers ux people uh product managers um and within that team they're split into acquisition and retention in their work and then you've got performance team as well um looking after acquisition um you know on all the key channels so that's growth and then you've got performance creative sitting under performance in our in our business and on the brand team we have all of our creative production um in the brand team we have a creative director design our design team and then also um influences and brand management.

37:27So yeah, that's how we split that. And what would you say, what would you say you've had to unlearn as a founder to, to I guess, let the company scale to a point that's beyond your direct control? It's so much learning. So I think the only way you can kind of continue to lead your company as it grows through this, this stage is by, being very intentional about learning as much as you can about how to run a company of this of this size and learning about leadership learning about management organizational design these things they're not easy so I've had you know so many coaches over the last two or three years that I pay a lot of money to so I can ask questions about leadership and management and structure to all the time.