Matt Kelly Returns to Break Down the Path from £10M to £50M

0:00Matt Kelly:And there'll be some twat on YouTube that rips my entire brand identity now before I've even fucking launched it. And if you do, I will sue you because I have more money than you.

0:10Back with a longer episode of DC Diaries. First time we've ever had the same guest on twice. Matt Kelly, founder of SpaceGust.

0:16Matt Kelly:Desperate for views. Yeah, we clearly... I don't even pull many views, but everyone else pulls far less views, it seems. Yeah. Too media trained. Exactly, exactly. So clearly we need another spike, especially after the recent... You're still doing the pod? Is it regular? Every week. Every week, mate. Without fail. 40 weeks in a row. Really? Yeah. Yeah, I think I did 93 with the Midnight Pod. Then I got bored and I was like, never again. We're going to try to keep it up. A bit of me wants to bring the Midnight Pod back, like ultra cinematic production. Let's fucking send it. But I've just like run out of interest in people to speak to.

0:48Matt Kelly:Yeah, you made your way through the network and then. Yeah, because then it has to go like mass market, start getting on fucking Ben Francis like everyone else. It just gets to start to go downhill. You're a vlogger now though, aren't you? do you know what's funny like people like my mate fred who's public now and so i can say this with sanucci like he used to be so anti-podcast it's like mate why are you doing it like just focus on the business now you start a fucking youtube it's like everyone's come full circle like i feel like all roads points to being a guru eventually yeah everyone goes around oh fuck he comes hard i'm gonna start a personal brand just whereas i don't know i feel like i was not the original by any means but in like the e-com space was quite early with it in a way and i just fucking took my foot off the gas because i was too like too busy with the brand and that founder stuff become more prevalent right it does kind of annoy me like i've inspired so many people to do it and there's a few of them that have like way more views than i do now it's just because they're more consistent yeah it's just consistency um but it is what it is like yeah there's a few people that have coined the document and the journey as well actually trademark that but it's been about 12 months since we last had you on i think slightly less i was incredibly fat in that last episode I'm still holding the shooting many pounds but now you're running really fast high-rocks times right I don't know about really fast 106 it's quite fast pretty fast that's faster than my doubles times yeah it would be was that mixed doubles or yeah no I didn't worse okay yeah but yeah a lot's gone on since then I think it was November actually so it was probably like nine eight nine months ago yeah I think you were two skews at that point, scaling into Q4, and a lot's happened.

2:29You'd just raise your first round, I think, at that point. Nah, it was a while after.

2:33Matt Kelly:So that was December 23. I think I went on the pod. I think it was October 24. But yeah, what's been going on? How's Base Goods' journey been over the last nine months? I should preface anything I say in this podcast with the problem with documenting stuff. is that and i tweeted this other day basically by default the most interesting stuff is the stuff you then start to feel like you can't talk about because it might offend either your team your customers your investors might come off wrong um something this weird spot if i can't speak about the interest in shit even though i reckon some of especially like the whole venture capital stuff i think i'd have a super interesting perspective on that um because no one speaks about it and the people that do speak about it typically have only ever done that whereas i come from like bootstrapped chad drop shipping background um but i guess the main difference has been basically gone from having like no employees to having like 15 employees um in pretty much like the past nine months either by in-housing things that were agencies or just by hiring more people and now the business at that point now it's like good and bad and i actually coined it like space goods 2.0 it feels like the next chapter i feel it would have gone from being a startup to a scale up and I suddenly feel like my role should and is very different than it was, should be and is very different than it was before.

3:48Matt Kelly:But now I'm like, fuck, I'm kind of out of the job in a way because I used to do everything like every founder does at the start and you do slightly less, but you do bits of things and then you remove yourself from the nucleus and come back to overseeing shit. And now I feel like I could fuck off for six months, it'd be fine, basically. Where does your time go right now then? Probably annoying **** and slack. just just atting people aggressively it's weird i really struggle with that actually i've even said this to like our ned and like spoke to like jimmy who's one of my mates and investors last night he's fucking rich as fuck i want to be him in a few years but even he's like started a new brand because he got bored which is interesting um where does my time go i mean ultimately i'm obviously like still in charge of the business so i'm still in the business um but i think it's this weird dichotomy where like you end up just like like helping people do their jobs right so my job almost just becomes like team coach but then yeah and like planning stuff i mean like i think as a founder i'm i also like don't know what the fuck i'm talking about so take all this with a pinch of salt it's just my opinion but i've learned from a lot more um intelligent people than me um i think the founder's job at this stage is hire the right people and Set the vision, hire the right people, make sure you don't run out of money.

5:05Yeah, it's that long-term innovation.

5:07Matt Kelly:I love it, that's it. Visionary. Decide what you're doing, get the people in, have enough money to do it. I've struggled with this over the last six months of figuring how to effectively use your time when you've got people doing a lot of this stuff for you. We've got a similar team, a bigger team, but a lot of leadership teams that take a lot of the business operations and day-to-day off my plate. And it is that. I think it's like your it's your job to think not about next week next month but like six 12 months down the line to keep you moving forward yeah then end up feeling guilty that I'm like not in the trenches yeah it's like a and then I had this like major imposter syndrome where I almost like I feel like I have to remind the team that I spent two years with no team pretty much which was kind of crazy and not no team but it was like me flow Seamus like a few freelancers yeah um i don't know i always have this weird assumption that everyone on the team thinks oh i must have such an easy life because i just i'm just like the founder and i just like i don't know go on podcasts and it's like no i did literally every job seven days a week for the first two years and even now i'm pretty much still seven days a week i feel like that now it's even now like doing this podcast in work working hours you do feel like that and it's almost a form of imposter syndrome yeah i've also got this weird like thing where like i feel like if i'm not on my desk i'm not being productive but it's just bullshit yeah because i don't know i think it comes from like the paranoia of being like a literal broke founder back in the day where like you don't have any money you have to do all yourself and you're like if i'm not on my screen typing that i'm not being productive but actually what could be more productive is like we hired an md into the business like six months ago it's like basically effectively like the ceo of the business so like could be like it's a bit of a weird one because i'm still like the ceo as much as i hate that term but ultimately like i still lead the business that's what that's what i mean by that and he's the md but maybe in some ways he should have been like an operations director or whatever but now he's in i'm a bit like quite like this because he just deals with like basically all the shit i don't want to do um it's quite comparable to ourselves and like the team i think look at him as the boss more than me yeah which just hurt my ego a little bit but in some ways maybe it's good um so yeah now i'm in this weird thing where i'm like fuck am i is my job done here or like i feel a bit like i don't really know what the fuck i'm doing my time i'm obviously doing lots and like i want to do way more with like content and brand stuff because we're really lacking that but i mean it's still like yeah loads of bullshit happening that comes up like hiring and fucking looking at p and hours and shit but i still think like it's your job to set the pace right even with that md and i've like we've got the same setup we've got matt who's rmd who probably could run the business if i just fell off a cliff yeah but i still and he's really good but i still think i inject a different level of pace at times than him and i think everybody in the business would say the same it's like it's just nobody sets that like the founder i think yeah this is the thing i struggle with the most is it's literally like my main thing at the minute is how do i keep stuff how do you keep the intensity because i feel like stuff just innately slows down there's more people without pissing everyone off it's i think the thing i've got to the point where now i feel like a lot of my team just don't like me i don't know if it's in my head or there's some truth to it but like often i'll say something and i'm met with like a comment from my md like you're not being reasonable yeah you need to give the team more time me do we i'm pretty sure we don't um yeah i i think i think an underrated skill that you have to learn as you grow teams is how to communicate internally really well because it's hard to like do it without because you communicate to loads of different types of people and you can without doing it in a structure it's like really hard to do it well i think yeah i think what's key like being direct and candid is really important i think what's in what some people don't do is then how you like tie empowerment into that it's almost like the shit sandwich isn't it you know being extremely direct setting that standard but then how do you tie that into empowerment it's kind of like that hormosey video where he's like when you're telling someone they're essentially not good or not good enough you don't say it like that you say i know you you you can be so much better i know you've got it in you and it's almost like how you tie that in but in terms of that ceo piece there's like obviously different types ceos aren't there you've got really the two are like the visionary ceo or the the operator ceo and you are that visionary ceo who's big picture vision you know future focused but i can imagine that's so much harder to like get into a routine and stay motivated knowing what you're doing because i guess the operator in many ways is more reactive to the day-to-day i think the problem i have is i'm like visionary great it's a nice fluffy word and shit and i probably am quite good at that but i'm also like a very competent operator in not an arrogant way but like in every area of the business i'm like good i wouldn't say i'm excellent at probably anything but like i know supply chain i know finance now i know customer service i've done it i know marketing i know branding websites there's nothing like i haven't got my hands dirty in and the problem with that is because i've done it myself i have the nuanced context on the realities of like how quick a product can be done for example and then as a result i get pissed off so i'm like well i've done that and i know it doesn't take six months so why the fuck is it taking six months um so i know there's like sometimes just a bit of bullshit excuse going on from either suppliers or yeah agencies or teams sometimes i think that's where a lot of founders get caught out as well like i'm not one of these fluffy founders i don't have a clue but i've got a vision no no i've done it all i understand technically how to do it to like a basic level not like to the same level as my employees who are specialists but yeah i think that makes it that makes their job harder as well so would you say you're happy what in life i guess right now where where you're at in business obviously it's something you've been talking a lot about online um a lot of questions raised today in terms of what you're saying where you're you sit within the business would you say where you're at right now you're happy in yourself there's two parts i think firstly most founders and like who are basically probably all autistic and adhd um just always want more more not necessarily like monetarily but like you just want to get better and do more you always feel like you're fucking useless i suppose my version is probably quite extreme because i'm innately a bit like that um yeah i just feel like i should be further ahead to be honest why do you feel like that a because i did quite well young then lost loads of it which obviously everyone knows about four years ago now and then b i've got an unusually successful network of friends like we're talking 0.001 percent like i was meant to be an ibiza this week with two guys one's pretty anonymous i won't say his name but he's yeah he's probably made 20 million he's 26 he owns a mansion in cape town self-made um yeah you know how i'm talking about and then another guy called noah tucker who just sold his business for like 35 million he's also 26 i'm like fucking my acquisition actually didn't see that that's probably crazy um i think he probably made about 20 million i think he didn't own all of it but probably owned most of it um it was a bit of a now and out as well but either way it was fuck you money um and i'm sat there like wow okay i thought i was doing okay um the thing with that though and it's like andrew wilkinson talks about this in his book doesn't he like that doesn't go away like he he went and met 10 billionaires and all they're doing is talking about the billionaire that has more billions than them so it's almost like how do you how do you like detach happiness from yeah i think like maybe naively but i've always thought and i said this to jimmy jimmy hill from hairburst who has been on my pod because he's made like a lot of money i'm not gonna say how much but a lot you can do due diligence if you want i just think like 10 million personally is where that anxiety probably goes away a little bit do you reckon that's actually true more than that that say no you'll feel the exact same exactly my counter to that is yeah but i would never have to think about money ever again and i'm not that level yet i made a bit of money and there was we did a deal recently where i made a bit of money which maybe i'll speak about maybe i won't but like i'm not like i've got more money than 99 of people my age that's just a fact but i'm definitely not on the level where like you know if this business stopped i'd have to start the next one so i think i don't know i think when you don't come from money as well i don't at all i don't think anyone in this room does but a lot of founders do especially in the venture space and maybe i can i've got opinions on that that maybe i shouldn't speak about but they don't know the anxiety of actually potentially having zero um because like daddy will just bail them out so i think and when you don't come from that background like me and most people really um yeah until you're fully set because entrepreneurship is so risky by default there's always that just voice in the back of your head like this better fucking work at least for me it does go away a little bit over time because like yeah it's not like i've got too random i can but i used to but not anymore um so yeah i don't know like i suppose i've always thought once i get to that like 10 million off the table i'll probably feel like yeah this comparison but no matter what happens i'm fine what what do you think you'd do at that point i think it gives you like freedom of choice right but i would love to find out that i'd be really depressed in my real choice yeah i'd love to be suicidal in my cullen and black badge extended wheelbase with a pink wrap um well i think i do believe i get there in the next few years but um i was like it is relative relatively uncommon to be fair and you do have to really nail something to yeah hit that number coming back to like the role in the business and the the visionary piece i obviously watched you do that talk at the five seasons agm i'm shit at those talks i i think you're really good i was saying i'm good on podcasts second i get in front of people like i'll be fine i start shaking bro i think you're incredibly good at articulating vision much better unless you felt the same as i did i just couldn't see it i think i always feel a bit you always feel a bit in front of a room you know i've never spoken in front of on a top on a presentation yeah you're never given it's always a bit like anxiety inducing but i always get into a bit of a flow when you go up there i think you're really good at selling the vision the business i think you do yourself a disservice by saying that you're not i think that's such and i almost think it's something you should lean into more but i wanted to touch on like it felt like when i watched that you'd like crystallized what you want to do with the brand from a positioning and product perspective for the next few years i just wanted to compared to when we maybe last had you on it'd be good to maybe just chat through what you're thinking there feel like you put the second half of this podcast through a vicious paywall because like honestly like the amount of shit i put on youtube already is i genuinely believe the midnight pod is like the best free valley if anyone's starting to dc brand so like go and watch it all and it's obviously attracting lots of competitors my fucking girlfriend was making ads for one of our youtube copycat competitors last night i walked in was like what is going on here she's like becoming a content creator i was like fair enough they're paying you 400 quid whatever like i get it we don't sell that exact product that they do so whatever for now um yeah even this i feel like i've learned loads on and i'm also like probably that presentation probably looked clear but sometimes i think because like why do i start with this there's so much nuance i think in any business but it's relevant but it's especially relevant in a venture-backed business which ultimately has to be on a path to exit at some point i'm speaking to jimmy about this for like an hour and a half last night as well i keep fucking talking about him but i just happened to speak to him yesterday and i do think that changes the dynamic of what you do and how you do it because basically two ways to sell a business these days like in consumer you either grow it you know grow it really profitably maybe you don't raise money and you sell it to like PE like generally you probably get an EBITDA multiple although these days those multiples are way less and also those deals are way less common or you do what Wilde did and you sell a strategic like Unilever who will pay a bigger multiple because they need that brand at that time for their portfolio, you know, to raise their share price, et cetera.

17:30Matt Kelly:It's always been the same thing. You're selling a good business to a buyer, but the strategic will usually pay more. Yeah. And while we're profitable anyway, but only in like year four or five, I think. You're looking at some revenue multiples there though, aren't you? Yeah, it's like a three and a half X revenue multiple, which you wouldn't get on a smaller business. No. But you only get into that category generally above about 50 million in revenue in Europe. It's kind of the ballpark. And to do that, i think you need to a be big and all that shit so like tam is relevant and that's kind of relevant to product choice but i think more relevant is what category do you own and how clear is the offering so like the slight problem i the problem i was trying to address by expanding the skews was like is this mushroom coffee thing big enough to get to 50 million in europe but probably but like is it big enough to do it efficiently and is the retention good enough blah blah blah so i kind of looked at it as i was probably two ways we go here we could like build on the whole like you know functional coffee thing and you know do an rtd can do fucking i don't know tinctures new flavors new versions new formats and like really own like functional coffee yeah which actually in many ways is probably a tighter offering um now i think about it or we can become the functional powder beverage brand and do you know five or six hero skews across different functions but it's tied together by functional all-in-one powder blend for xyz time of day and function that's what i've gone with for now but a bit of me does think and this was jimmy's view is like is that tight enough like unless they're going to want to buy that potentially but i think the the reason it's not tight enough now in my opinion is the brand isn't tight enough so when i started it was and this is definitely behind a fucking paywall jesus christ um when i started it was kind of like you know i didn't really have a plan i didn't reverse engineer if i did another brand in the future which probably would i'd definitely like reverse engineer a bit more like i did a little bit with this but it's kind of just like i made the blend for me i liked it it was kind of like econ bro like nootropic brand well it was kind of where it started the legal micro notes yeah it was like hardcore nootropic whereas now it's become like yoga mom wellness brand and i'd be like oh fuck so the audience isn't really what i thought it was going to be so now do i lean into that or do i try and lean pull it back and lean into like maybe like the more hardcore like biohacking nootropic stuff that kind of i'm more interested in um and i guess you kind of have to follow the money really so now it's like well what's gonna help it get to 50 million in revenue and be able to sell to say nestle which is probably plan they um and yeah it's something i'm working on really because we're also doing a brand refresh in the background which now i'm like shitting myself about because i spent like five months on it it looks cool but like fuck me if we change it people are gonna like not recognize it like it's still pink and purple and shit but it's more like refining it i've seen some people who have done that recently like purdy and fig did it a massive impact on their performance improvement yeah massive yeah so the exact numbers but it was and it was subtle but yeah noticeable there's probably like the similar level of change we're doing like it you still recognize what in my opinion yeah but it's functionally better it's like clearer what it is more premium so i'm hoping with that visual rebrand but also i'm trying to tighten up the narrative because right now the problem with like i'm talking shit about my own business but it's my opinion it's like you've got a mushroom coffee audience right you then got there's some overlap they've got a sleep audience there's definitely some overlap but there's also often not then you got people buying hydration like the thing that ties it together is yes wellness but that's far too fucking broad so like the unlock your full potential is the slogan always has been we haven't really leaned into it enough so now i want it to be like basically like fuel for the modern athlete and that doesn't mean sport it means like the busy mum the econ bro scaling the guy with the shit office job that's trying to get promotion in the university student i think there's something there in like if you want to get better this is what you take xyz time of day and it serves a purpose and there'll be some twat on youtube that rips my entire brand identity now before i've even fucking launched it and if you do i will sue you because you have more money than you um this is the problem with putting too much stuff out on the internet but that's my general view or i've just lied about all that to put you off the scent um but yeah i've been lying if i said i had it all figured out i think but i do think a risk of a lot of brands and i've seen like one brand that's pretty well known recently i'm not going to say that's like launched a product and i'm just like fucking tell me you're struggling without telling me you're struggling because you've just gone into a completely different category that your entire brand was built in the past five years um and i think that's too broad for them um but you think you look at like a she's like yeah and i think they're a discount brand that will be on tiktok shop for the next five years i could be wrong but i think that brand struggles to sell because it's so broad sells fucking everything and it also sells on tiktok shop for like four quid but where's the brand value i could be wrong and i that yeah it depends i watch this and dm me like i'm making more money than you which they are but i don't know like how are you i think that's a classic like potential zombie brand where it does well for the founders but like who's going to buy that business and that's they don't necessarily have to buy it by the way because i don't think he's raised venture he's raised some money but i just think if your brand relies on tiktok shop then in my opinion you're fucked yeah they're very like i see what you're saying i think if you're very specific about who your persona is though then it brings more brand value i also think yeah i think finding brand value i feel like cohort profitability over time is like gonna make the most difference it's like yeah to some extent i know what you're saying in terms of like untangible brand above that will drive massive valuation improvements and probably make it more attractive to buy yeah i think you need both you need like the financials obviously but then i guess purely from and this isn't my opinion this is from like investment bankers i've met who've done all these deals who say like also how you package it and how you position is as important as the numbers storytelling i guess isn't it like can you tell the right story in that room around much better brand than me right now by the way um and the numbers are much better from what i've heard but i just wonder if any brand whether it's anyone else that's like so reliant on tiktok shop and then like i don't know does fucking gummies does bars does powders just hops on trends i don't know does that make sense long term maybe obviously like way bigger than we are and they sell everything so yeah very different brand though innit um to you what you're trying to do i like what you're thinking though in terms of the brands from like a need state perspective i think that's what you've said previously it's like solving like one problem with each product um i get cancelled for that section i sound like such a twat i'm coping very hard by talking shit about a business making more money than us no it's opinion right that's from the lens of being venture backed which i think does change things for better or worse and there's probably a whole seven hour podcast on that in itself but um yeah these are just things i've learned not from my own opinion but much wiser people yeah i think what you've you've done in terms of that pivot i think the product journey as well is like just opens you i think what it allows you to do in today's market is just opens you up to so many more problems to attack and it's so much easier to scale a brand on through traditional d2c right now if you've got more problems that you can solve for consumers on page yeah so it's like the most the bigger the problem the bigger the problem the easier it is to scale i think that's like you can distill it down to that that's why fashion is so hard on facebook now yeah you just haven't got the problem unless you've got a functional thing included so hard to do demand creation you almost have to just do it off platform yeah so i think that expansion of skew range to hydration to the next skews i know you've got coming like just opens up the door to so many different customer journeys i wonder what's next because obviously wellness like broadly like since like maybe 2021 it's just fucking boomed i think getting bigger i think fertility is a massive one that's coming into the uk i met a guy last night who's doing a um a fertility test where they then give you a plan to improve your sperm count over time amazing i don't need that but like that's a nice massive in the u.s i think it's huge in the u.s absolutely huge and that's still like freezing eggs yeah it kind of is i guess wellness is like 10 grand a year to freeze their eggs and like it's crazy in the u.s i think that's gonna boom obviously pets is on that massive like if i was gonna say if i was yeah i also reckon just like better for you but actually better for you like there's so many brands that claim to be better for you and you read the back of pack and it's got sucralose xanthan gum xylitol like david frozen literally like where it's actually well that's full of shit as well no that's still yeah it's honestly i think the best better for your brand in the uk right now is hunter and gather yeah they're popping as well i know they're not huge and i've met those i think they're similar scale to us i think it's much better brand than us right now by the way i think kudos to them like i've met the fans a few times my girlfriend loves their shit but they actually don't have the shit in the ingredients like even huel i used to be a massive hooligan or whatever and then i just like started feeling shit whenever i ate it yeah like obviously i built a great brand that's massive and stuff but we have like huel bars in the office right and just i think i don't know they're on like repeat order or something i ate one the other day and i instantly like had a fucked up stomach for like two days yeah obviously i'm just like sensitive to that stuff now but surely there's a gap in the market for like a huel that's not got all that shit in it definitely i feel like everyone's treating obviously it's more expensive to make that which is why people don't do it but everyone's like treating gut health with supplements and additives rather than like root cause yeah it's like there's probably i've been digging into this i even think i even think just before we go on i even think like some of the meal prep companies that are scaling massively right now i'm not going to name them but you can't you go on simmer well yeah but like me and my mate well i just i bought that shit before i do think it looks and tastes it's another one like a lot of them you can't that you eat it and i'm like this has got shit loads of sugar in it i can taste it i can feel it and you go and they don't publish their ingredients on the website you go through the chatbot and they've only just started doing it because freddie our mate who's like really into his gut health and fitness you just couldn't get information about salt and sugar content pretty crazy you're eating it that's why it's like why is that not publicly available probably because it's full of shit problem with these bars as well is like it's very hard to make a bar not processed yeah just like the way that you make a bar like it's it's that's why the for the most part they're not the thing on that david example david protein for anyone doesn't know a big protein bar well it's a new it's only like a year old the founder of rx bar so he's like obviously super experienced super rich that's a classic case of like it's not a new category obviously we're saying it's full of shit because apparently it is but like he just improved the macros yeah and i've always thought like every market is crowded you can either solve a problem that's not been solved yet you can improve a product which is probably the easiest way to like apply newness like david or you can like apply a new angle to an existing niche for example like there was all the ethical fitness wear like taller and stuff i don't know how like legit that is but that was like a new trend yeah and like huell like that's than your angle like i don't know someone should make huell that doesn't have sweeteners in it like i mean there's probably a reason why it's not been done because it tastes like shit which hurts retention and be it probably costs too much which again kills like margin but so yeah david valued at like 700 mil 725 mil in less than 12 months i think like 100 mil in the first year or something i think you even look at like categories like protein that's a good one to do that in like grass-fed protein oh yeah i think protein's having a resurgence yeah it is and also creatine creatine massively especially for women and fiber fiber being the new protein through like like natural gl like glp1 collagen's back again okay that's just all the third time um i wonder what's next the new undiscovered ingredient i think yeah interesting well that epg we were talking about this in the last episode that's the thing in david yeah didn't they and everyone's kicking off what is that it's like it's low calorie it's essentially a low calorie fat substitute which like a lot of these brands use and obviously they've patented it so yeah they've acquired the pattern essentially everyone's booting yeah that guy's just playing 4d chess because he just knows how he's going to get a 10 billion dollar exit that's what i said everyone was booting off and i was like he's just playing chess everyone else is playing check he's like just levels uh to strategy yeah um when you've got 600 mil you can make those moves a bit easier yeah yeah exactly um so talk we've been talking a lot about product i know you're i've definitely said too much on this podcast i shouldn't have said as well fucking hell we can be told to get media trained and just no no comment we could edit this is the problem if it's gonna be good content it has to be honest um both like about the business but also just about opinions and shit and then you get cancelled or you get copied so i know you're you're you're very passionate about product specifically that's something you've been very vocal about talk us through like i know you work with someone as well there but what does your mpd process look like because it's not something we talk much about on the podcast i think it's like i think most businesses get really good at marketing and then they are like oh fuck we're actually a product business oh yeah shit we should probably figure out products as well that's basically what happened with me it was like like two years with like one skew that we never even improved because it was like decent from day one probably wasn't great but it was like decent i think it has been improved a bit now and then i was like oh fuck yeah we should probably like build a system around products as the problem with that is everything takes so long and like i actually think in our business to be completely honest sorry for anyone that listens to this it's ultimately my fault but it takes fucking too long it's ridiculous like i don't know why it takes us like six months to launch a product and people just say oh that's just that's how the industry is like genuinely and this isn't just in my business like for example like it takes three months to like produce a supplement like you know if you work with a supplier like anyone that's in the industry knows this it's basically three months and i always think like i've said this to my suppliers many times tell me why it takes three months what happens every day because the actual like making takes a day so why does it take three months oh i've got all the ingredients okay well why can't ship them in one day yeah and i don't know i'm not like this is what i mean by people say i'm unreasonable so i said the other day like if i put a gun to your wife's head and said if you don't make this product in three days she's dead would you make the product in three days you probably would you'd be able to do it like surely or a week maybe i'm obviously not going around threatening to people but like it's theoretically theoretically like the thought exercise i think peter thiel thiel every says then says like why can't you do your 10 year goals in six months it's like it's the same sort of thinking but most people just default to like oh we can't do that because i don't need to and like oh that'll be hard like well known for that as well like he's he goes into like meetings and just he's like what make that happen in like a tenth of the time so this comes back to like the founder intensity thing this is a big thing even this week that i'm banging on about like and it's not just the team's fault it's like suppliers and stuff but kind of the end of the day like if you're responsible for something kind of is your fault even if it's a supplier um like someone's got to take the blame and ultimately i take the blame but like obviously you don't want to micromanage people so it's like oh why is stuff taking so long so we've been trying to make like a new product that was meant to launch in may i'm now being told it's february next year i'll literally like might have a different like political opinion by then why is like taking so long i just i don't get it um and then you just get it's like bureaucracy oh this is how long it takes to do this sort of product blah blah blah but like i just don't buy that that's the quickest it can be i think like if you look at how fast an industry that just books all that trend is like anything ai related right now where they're pumping out it's like if they can churn out like ai models in like six months can't be that hard to make a good in that time little lower time frames it's like challenging conventional thinking which i think will become more common over the next few years yeah and like those delays aren't like every product but even just like stuff that's like standard like i don't know you probably go like maybe it's like three months from idea sampling testing whatever blah blah and then you're three months to make it so like six months probably from idea to launch realistically um but even that feels like too long and that's on time but yeah to come back to the process i mean to be honest it like basically just starts with i see shit put it on a mirro board i'm like that's quite cool should we do something in that um i mean i haven't done that many products it's not like we're churning out stuff but i always have new ideas and then i just send it to my mpd person and she probably thinks i'm stupid um i probably gets overwhelmed with the amount of stuff i send in and then i guess we talk about it do a lot of customer research and shit um i think there's also three pillars now to products now we're doing this mpd new product development i.e launching like hydration EPD like new flavor for Rainbow Dust which actually I think is probably the lowest hanging fruit is new flavors again I should fucking charge for this um it's like obvious but actually like saying it from experience all these new brand others and we're like oh fuck yeah that's why we're not scaling because we did a shitty flavor that tastes like ass if we did three new ones we'd actually scale and it is true um and then there's um like improving existing products so like Rainbow Dust we're trying to well like we've just changed the ashwagandha to KSM ashwagandha for example which is like more potent but also gives you the legal claims around xyz thing because it's got research that's a branded ingredient for anyone that doesn't know what that is um like stuff like that and like obviously like margin improvement which we've done a lot of like even packaging so like we changed our pouch supplier which fucked it up for a while even little things like the tear strip is really jagged you couldn't close it properly all these little things just affect like retention and experience so like trying to improve shit like that pouch came out horribly wrong that even that one on the shelf there but you can see it's got like loads of finger marks on it and the the tear strip at the top is like too low down so the proportions are off and like all these mine and the color is slightly wrong it just doesn't look very good um but yeah it's a pretty chaotic process i mean i mean i'm probably the only chaotic one like the rest of the team probably quite structured but yeah that's kind of where it starts and then i tend to bring the ideas combine it with like honestly i do a lot of stuff on chat gpt i literally plug in like it obviously knows all the context of my brand because i speak to it like two hours a day speaks to chat gpt far more than my girlfriend which is like sad but actually probably true at least you're not using it as a girlfriend like some people yeah true i do have a sentient attractive girlfriend for now hopefully long term um christ two coffees what was i saying um yeah so like it knows about obviously the brand chat gpt is actually mental i think this is another thing we've overly complicated on i'm going to sound like i'm calling out like certain team members and if they're listening i'm genuinely not it's all my fault at the end of the day but we spent like 10 grand on this this is what happens when you got a strong balance sheet by the way you just do stupid shit you wouldn't have fucking done if you're bootstrapped and that is definitely a downside for raising money by the way and maybe we'll get into that later on but again probably a touchy subject we spent 10 grand on this i don't know what it's called like some food well i do know what it's called actually i'm not gonna say it though in case the founder's listening like this food research platform whatever like it's meant to give you ideas and like keep you up to date with like industry stuff i remember just i was on a call with the guy selling it to us but someone else on the team wanted it and like didn't want to like block them if they really wanted it and whatever and i was just like can i just do this in chat to me too i can literally like and i showed him like like i've just put in give me the top five trends from vita foods the conference we went to and it's just told me why do i need to pay you 10 grand a year it's like oh yeah but um we've got like real researchers with you know this has got 500 iq and like all the context of the internet genuinely like i think people overcomplicate stuff like i don't think people are getting like how good chat gpt is and it's only gonna get better and i'm sure that it's missing like some nuance somewhere of course but i can put in like give me the next i don't know give me the three biggest trends in america that haven't quite come to the uk yet for example yeah and it will tell me even like and it'll give me suppliers yeah the only thing it misses is like a bit of like recency context but if you go on like that's pretty much bang on and if you go on like other yeah if you if you find the right model to use like it can it has everything you need and that's where i don't think activities necessarily are i was like getting rid of people i think it just makes existing people like 10 times quicker or it should be you just have to become really good at prompt engineering yeah just context building I was having a really interesting conversation with Jack from D.

38:11Louise last night where he'd said that someone he was at a conference with said that like they think that with AI the labour market is going to become like the football market for like the really good people and you're going to have agents trading like AI engineers manage it like like for massive like sign-on fees like massive like wage like you saw meta just poached 100 million meta just poached apple's guy for 100 million and it's like it's quite realistic to think maybe there'll be someone managing these people who are just like really high output high leverage and they're moving between companies for like massive fees like very regularly it's quite a funny thing to think about head of growth 100 mil sign-on bonus matt kelly trades yeah to fuel to become head of vision for yeah 150 here we go he's the start of fabricio morano page um but yeah yeah i think it does just make you more impactful gives you more agency right the ability to drive output yeah i still find like some people even in our team it's a taboo i don't want to use ai for like creative stuff it feels wrong i'm like

39:27Matt Kelly:no offense but you're going to be homeless in five years then yeah you need to you cannot shy away from it it's like saying i'm not using the internet because i want to be natural yeah i was literally like that with vo3 when it first came out because obviously we do video went to film school that's literally been my life and then literally i've just the last two days i probably spent about 18 hours on it and i still haven't properly tried it myself and it's actually like enhances creativity how long does it take to make one of those clips you sent me um as in like what in terms of i said well i you see you've just flipped did you use chat gbc to make the so i i basically wrote in chat gbc what i wanted and i've got a template that i built for like what the prompt needs to be structure it needs to have so essentially just like who who are the characters what's the scene uh what are they saying and then it will then rewrite it back to with better detail and then paste that into uh vo3 vo3 fast so it's quicker there's like 200 pound a month i was up the quick but you don't get many tokens though yeah for the for the for the newest vo3 how many of those like 10 second clips could you make for 200 a lot now for on vo3 fast vo3 quality you could do less probably like 50 a day uh it's increased i think 50 a day, that's a lot.

40:49It's still a lot, yeah. But it's gone up to a couple of hundred, I think. You've got to think every time you do a revision, it's an output, I guess. Yeah. So if you need to fine-tune it. You can do multiple.

41:00Matt Kelly:How long does it take to say make a 10-second clip? It probably takes about three minutes. Oh, it's still quick. So it's still pretty quick. And you can do multi at the same time. Could it make a one hour? So what I do is I built scenes, I put them all in, and then it will literally prompt them all out. But obviously you then could re-prompt if they're not right. but it's a game changer so i'm already thinking about a space goods moon idea there's just so much you can do with it it's just like enhances creativity in many ways you just if you are creative anyway apply like you i think there's so much you can apply to ai to enhance that creativity whereas i think a lot of creatives view it as a negative because he took our jobs yeah it is yeah just make a thing like what's gonna happen like hollywood and shit obviously it's not that level yet but it could be easy in a few years 100 why wouldn't you especially with vfx depends how like when it gets to the point where it's the prompt doesn't need to be as detailed to get the right output right that's what it becomes i saw that what made like a 45 second to be that detailed you see that what video you know what yeah the gta one gta was so good and it had like hormones and yeah yeah definitely getting sued over that yeah and they did yeah they did the school thing didn't they everyone's dropping out of school yeah so you so your chat gpt and products research then where do you go to chuck it into a slack channel on my rebel with like general ideas and then tend to like look at every week and be like which ones are relevant i mean kind of have like a product roadmap planned ahead now didn't used to have that um yeah it's kind of like a financial modeling in some ways you know like planning what's coming next right and you've got more of an end state i guess you want to get to product wise right from what i've seen yeah like we've got loads of shit in the pipeline but like i do sometimes wonder like where's the i've loads of mad ideas and i'm sure that could crush but does it make sense for the brand or is it are we just going too broad now especially because it's like through the lens of law is this gonna is this gonna be able to exit um who's gonna buy this if we start doing for example like i don't know i wouldn't do creatine gummy even though it's popping it doesn't make sense to the brand yeah i'm like we sacked off our existing gummies i think we're phasing them out because we want to focus on powder um so yeah still kind of winging the product stuff a little bit to be honest but yeah i guess a combination of like my opinion the market customers um general feedback but also like some brands get massive doing like you know one or two things but you don't have to do loads i think you just have to like i still think distribution is more important than product basically like because everyone's got a decent product these days you can white label a good product in like five minutes um but if no one knows about it who cares you can have a terrible problem creating gummies right there's some of these brands that have selling there's more successful businesses with shit products and great marketing than the other way around yeah obviously if you can have both this is what you need to go like really big i think you need the retention and like the brand value and loyalty and so on but yeah i still think if i'm honest right now i think we're better at marketing than our product but i'm trying to even that out a bit more how's retail evolved since we last spoke retail is a whole different thing yeah it's grown quite a lot um we're in like 1200 stores obviously the caveat is it's still a dc product like it's not retail format 40 quid pouch powder like it's twice the price for anything else on the shelf in like holding a bar and anywhere else we have got a seven day box it's like nine quid i think launched online was meant to launch like nationwide in like march now it's going like next month or something um yeah there's just lots of delays and stuff like that was meant to go live in march that could have been like a million quid in revenue over like six months it wasn't because it was delayed because they fucked up the planogram whatever um i'm also working on a very specific retail product which i'm not going to say because all the fucking copycats will do um but that's like the big one potentially did some out of home advertising for like a retail thing that was for the first time that was semi-interesting but then the problem with retail is like it's physical so like pretty sure all the stores at out of home it was in canary wharf there's like three main holland barrett's just did it as a trial i'm pretty sure most of the stores didn't have any stock so i was like hold on so we spend all this money on out of home for two weeks and you've got no fucking stock so that's like running ads to a broken website yeah makes no kind of obviously you still get the impression and then see the brand but there was something trackable in that wasn't there was there like a qr i don't know how much it's the day yeah to be honest um just tough to measure right as well it's like so hard to measure and i also think a lot of your retail demand from seeing it like can be driven by just online like most of it for yeah and that definitely is i think being d2c first and retail second makes way more sense than the other way around i think i think of sales channels as like just the more you can do the better like the more places you can show up to allow customers to meet customers where they want to transact the better but then you should focus marketing on the ones that are most effective still and be very intentional with like how many channels you do from an acquisition perspective.

46:22Matt Kelly:Yeah, basically definitely haven't figured out retail fully, but it's such high margin compared to DTC and like a contribution level. It's also predictable, right? More, much more. Well, it's like predictable but also not. Yeah. I think you need it as well as DTC long term, I think these days. Yeah. I mean like this year, DTC is still like 10 times bigger. Less of a business model though, right? Like 15 times bigger. DTC was a business model for like the last five six years yeah now it's like a channel it's becoming a channel again and i feel like you've seen so many brands tiktok shop brands dc brands just pop up in all stars still so far behind the us though in that in that regard but we had obvi on the podcast and ash from obvi and on this podcast yeah in the uk no did it online um but he yeah he was saying when they like launched in hundreds of walmarts they just saw like subscriptions just tank because obviously if if you could just go get it down down the road in walmart then yeah i think the other thing i realized is there's one thing getting a listing it's another thing selling through successfully and consistently like everyone fucking like creams themselves when they get whole foods listing on linkedin you get like this you know fucking niche like german kombucha brand founded by two like hamstered posh girls and they're like oh my god we got a whole foods listing a it's like literally 400 pound a year in in revenue because that's how small those listings are i'm not joking we're in whole foods it's fucking tiny maybe 400 pound a quarter but it's tiny it doesn't even pay for like the train ticket there do you know i mean um but then even if you're in there like you have to sell well yeah so like you either need i don't know banging product anyway has to stand out it's obviously super competitive you probably want to be doing ddc marketing so people know about it and you have to do like like we did the fsdu's freestanding display unit yeah they look cool and they do massively spike rate of sales to get all the day on that but they're fucking expensive yeah it's like 50 grand or something for like a month those shows that is the i feel like the whole quite quickly your margins like disappearing from from a girlfriend working at lucky saying like understanding that retail ecosystem a bit about how expensive those store activations are it's crazy how much you can pay for some of them there's a lot of big brands in the uk or a few i'm thinking of that are fucking crushing in retail but like the pnl is like a war zone because it costs like millions to like get to that scale um like the average joe thinks oh they're crushing it but like yeah they are crushing distribution but like unless they raise next year they're bankrupt do you mean um you don't see that as much in d2c you can build a much healthier business d2c economics wise i think um so while i do want to grow retail it does feel like it's just like a more cash intensive channel and also like payment terms all this shit so i think d2c first makes sense for 90 of brands yeah but i also know nothing about retail so i'm just saying what i've learned which is relatively limited compared to other things so you had a bit of a twitter spike recently didn't you andrew tate responded to one of your tweets yeah if i can now if i get cancelled like um what happened there i was probably one of my reflective moves i tweeted about not being successful enough or something it's like a 1am tweet and i woke up to like half a million impressions and andrew tate replying to me saying that you're a fucking loser or something um rough morning do you know what's funny about that because like obviously i think i'm a bit of a personal brand problem because

50:09Matt Kelly:like i'm six foot three got a big business i've got some money got a fit girlfriend i can run a sub three marathon i'm not a fucking npc loser but i act like i am because in my head i often feel like i am so i'm not saying that to be arrogant i'm saying that because like my whole persona online i tend to i am very like bipolar and like like genuinely um you're the opposite and reflective and very deep thinker and i very like i basically do think i'm a bit shit most of the time even though like objectively on the wider spectrum i'm not but like thinking that comes from past failures like probably being like relatively high iq but the side of that is just overthinking everything i think it'd be so much easier like and it's like kind of joke but also true like be a lot easier to be like quite dumb and just like go to the pub every night and be fucking happy doing nothing but i think most founders just aren't that um but i'm probably an extreme version even within that um what was i saying though but like yes i i tend to like do generally okay in life but like genuinely think income doing nothing whereas i think social media generation tends to be the opposite where they're actually it's true a criminal that doesn't pay tax and they're lying about everything on the internet but they think they're the shit and they're like do you know what i mean like twitter's rife with it like people literally just lie i have a tendency to like tweet or even on my youtube videos people message me like bro your fucking youtube is so depressing like you only like share the fucking i only share the low lights whereas most people only share the highlights um i don't know where that comes from i was just like i'm feeling more reflective when i film and tweet i'm like tends to be when i'm like having an issue or something rather than oh we had a good day and i did something cool like like i went to loads cool places in may for example was in like dubai barcelona paris and new york and i didn't film any of it yeah i do film when i'm like in my fucking airbnb down the road just like working like oh this is hard um so i've got an identity problem with that and just come back to the andrew tape point so like i think because of that that tweet and the people that replied to his tweet were like basis oh this guy's like a fucking loser and it's like some incel that's saying that with like a private account and three followers do you know i mean um so then i think i quote tweeted and said well just to clarify like i'm not actually like a fucking loser incel i just reflect a lot and i'm comparing myself to you know the 0.0001 um which is unhealthy but it's also just actually how i think um so maybe i need to lean more into sharing the highlights the highlight montage yeah it's just balance isn't it because i think it's one of your strengths that you are so vulnerable and transparent and that's something that most people aren't um i think that's why you have a lot of people that relate to you and follow you because they like to see that vulnerability compared to just like i've also just realized like literally everyone is like less successful than you think basically like there's some exceptions i don't mean that in like a negative way necessarily but i mean that like i think everyone and i certainly do well maybe just me but like have a tendency to assume that everyone's doing better than them and oh like why are they nearly like even me with like my own some of my own friend group i kind of like think oh like he's fucking crushing it and like this and then you actually have an honest conversation with them and like oh yeah they have all the same struggles i do they just don't post on twitter like i do um and they're much better at framing their personal brand or whatever i'm thinking of one guy in particular which i'm not going to say and it's like fuck if people actually knew what he just said to me at dinner if you put that on his twitter he'd sell less shit do you know what i mean which is why he doesn't put it on his twitter whereas for me it's like i've kind of fucked myself because i've always i've there's nothing else to say really i've put it all on the internet at this point um but yeah it's a lot of smoke and mirrors it really is um even probably for me i reckon some people look at me and think oh this guy's like fucking got like 20 million quid like definitely don't um well i don't even say i do but like you know maybe some more naive people that don't understand the game probably think i'm like fucking amazing where even running like a what's seen as like a relatively successful brand in the uk um still just like fucking hard work i mean it's not like i don't know podcasts and lambos like probably some 16 year olds assume um a lot of those people though they live way above their means yeah i think the vast majority of society lives beyond their means i used to as well not beyond but like this is like super honest as well like back when i was like 23 24 i was living in a shared penthouse with my mates in fact i'm gonna be super honest with this because i don't think people realize that this is my own this is me so i'm talking shit about myself but it's also relevant to a lot of other people and i don't do it anymore i was like 23 24 living in that penthouse in emacy gardens so that's 10 grand a month but between three of us that's less rent than i pay now in a shitty one bed because now i pay for all that's like context number one but obviously i look like a baller there i look like a fucking like poor person where i currently live it's an abnb it's actually more expensive it's five grand a month i'm paying right now and it's like shit in comparison to that i had a financed audi r8 which i put i don't know 20 grand down it's like a lot of money it's like i'm not saying it's nothing but like you don't have to be multi millionaire um what was it 1200 pound a month car finance so that's what four and a half grand a month bills i had you know a few rolex watches they weren't finance but like you know they're not crazy expensive like eight nine grand um you go on a few holidays fly business class on points not paying for that yeah the business was doing like 300 grand a year profit at that point which was really good when you're 23 um but like my point is i think people thought i had 10 million quid where you can literally live that lifestyle five grand a month like literally which is yeah still like more money than most people are taking home after tax at 23 of course and like you have to have the liquidity to pay the car deposit and all this but it's not what people think is and there's so much of that and like i guarantee your favorite guru that makes all his money from selling the dream to you by the way probably had no money when he started the course i think people just think that everyone else his car is financed his house is rented and shared with his mates that's not everyone there are people that make fuck you money like you know imangadzi has made probably 100 million plus like fair play like that's a different level um i think but most people in that arena it's a lot of smoke and mirrors i think you could apply that to things other than money as well and by the way there's nothing wrong with me living like that i thought it was sick i fucking loved it but like i'm just saying i wasn't selling a course or anything and kind of wish i did but like i just want to be honest about it's way more achievable to live to look rich than you think yeah and therefore most people aren't for those people it's like perpetuating cycle right they're trying to sell you something so they have to look like that it's like a yeah it's like the marketing i think people apply that logic to everything like routine fitness everything like comparative like thinking yeah like anyone making money in the fitness industry is probably on steroids of some sort yeah or Psalms or something um well here we are we've got a couple of minutes left are we going to finish on that?

57:32no we'll ask you on that bomb show yeah we'll ask you what you've got what's the next 12 months looking like what do you think is achievable for the rest of this year where do you want to unless you've got anything you wanted to no no that's that's where i was going um so i taught numbers on it

57:49Matt Kelly:i have to have to inflate them slowly

57:55Matt Kelly:yeah i mean like halfway through the year um had a good few months yes i mean the first year business did like a million quid in eight months so i've gone like one three and a half nine and a half trying to do like 18 million this year pretty much so i guess it's quite good growth compared to like a lot of businesses i know there's some fucking 21 year old 21 year old kid that's raising their money that's doing five billion in his fucking mom's basement around right now watching this so compared to him i'm a massive failure but yeah i guess it's grown um but the goalposts always move don't they so you always just like said that to me two years ago i mean i that's pretty sick like team growing blah blah blah i suppose yeah what's the plan for the rest of the year i mean yeah like obviously hit the numbers um i think it's a tough market right now we're growing in germany or trying to grow in germany it's pretty new a lot more retail stuff coming in the second half of the year two new products like one one entirely new product a bunch of like new flavors and shit as well maybe a second product by the end of the year but might be next year probably like not not more not anymore hiring for us the year i think we're like basically hired out i think opex is too high but that's another of thing just to grow into it right grow revenue into it yeah and then i suppose trying to figure out like where the fuck i spend my time i definitely want to do way more like contenty stuff i feel like more drawn to like the youtube and like just content in general and because i just kind of enjoy it more than sitting at a desk typing looking at slack messages so i said no more hiring actually that's a lie we just hired a new social media manager i want to do way more there we haven't nailed that if i'm honest um videographer i'm hiring not like an employee but like someone that's in the brand so i reckon i found the right guy on like interview number two which is the power of social media because someone just gave me a recommendation i was like yeah this guy just gets it fuck me and he's a home nice um is it more just like documenting what's happening or is it yeah like i want to do like more brand stuff i think one of you like customer documentaries and could be cool basically we're really good at performance marketing that's all we do like just do direct response hardcore buy this like you know problem solve it's problem solution bye whereas there's no emotion in any of it was actually i think i think brand's a really fluffy word like yeah we've we're technically a brand but i don't think we have like we have a bit of a cult audience to be fair but i think we need to there's way more potential there like the whole brand essence i think has been kind of lost in the pursuit of growth the past like two years i want to start it it was way more like you know we did the 80s stuff and like there's probably more in that and then you sort of lean away from it because it's not like converting like i remember that 10 minute movie i did with the dmc delorean yeah look with like a voiceover from the actual girl that I was dating that sent me a pie-off message it's legendary was that the first one or the one you did with the car that was the first so she was in the first movie it then became a real life thing very toxic for like six months she'll never watch this but if she does I'm over it um at least publicly and then in the second movie I paid someone to do a voiceover of the actual text so like as if she was calling me so it was like an easter egg thing and so I had loads the fun with all that stuff and then you decide it doesn't pay the bills so i should probably just fucking do performance marketing um so now i want to do a bit more stuff i also think like like i met steve hewitt from gymshark for like two hours like last week i met him before but that wasn't one-on-one was this time it's like one-on-one and yeah i kind of trust his opinion because he kind of grew five to five hundred million with probably the best ddc brand in the history of the uk um so his opinion is valuable and he was like yeah he just basically showed them the pnl was like yeah the problem here is there's no there's no brand spend basically and i was like yeah i kind of thought it was like fluff but and he was like yeah it is kind of fluff up to like your previous scale but if you want to go to like 50 million because he reckons 10 to 50 is the hardest stage in any business and i'm i'm glad he said that because i fucking agree with him because i'm in that now because you go from being you can get to 10 million but basically just a founder pretty much these days founder and an agency then you quite quickly have to professionalize and future-proof it because you're not getting to 50 million with just a founder and agency it's not gonna happen everything gets more complex and then within that he said yeah you just need to spend more on brand i was like what do you mean by brand is like well basically content but like content that's not content and events and you know all this like stuff that i would have said was like fluff before but i get it a bit more now so yeah i think founder content as well he said i should do more of that um like don't shy away from it there's like quite an interesting brand story that more people probably would relate to than i maybe think um so yeah i'm looking forward to seeing that stuff i'll just spend the next six months goblin mode hunched over my laptop but i'm really trying not to do that like i also just need to like spend less time on a screen to be honest because i've basically fucked my health like mentally and physically by just working too hard the past few years sounds like super like soy but it's true balance balance brand and creative.

1:02:52That's why it's coming. Nice. Cool. Well, thank you very much for coming on.

1:02:56Matt Kelly:Appreciate it. Another banger. Obviously subscribe to my YouTube, The Midnight Pod, at Mathiusius, which isn't my second name. It's a play on Confucius, the Chinese philosopher. It's M-A-T-T-H-U-C-I-U-S. A lot of people think my second name is Housius. What the fuck? It's like, no, it's just, it's a Chinese philosopher from five years ago that has changed the username. Yeah, we'll put all the links down below. Go buy Space Goods and yeah, I'll see you on the next episode See you