The 2025 Growth Blueprint: How Soar With Us Rebuilt Culture, Operations & Forecasting to Scale

0:00We were very bullish on growth in general, not fully thinking it through, not out of stupidity, just out of naivety.

0:10welcome back to another episode of dc diaries today we have a guest who is as comfortable running spreadsheets and forecasts as he is walking his dog he's a true grassroots operator a detailed obsessed md who's been very instrumental at driving saw groups growth over the last five six years. He's also founder of Calm Collective and he's a freak in the sheets. Google sheets that is. Please welcome to the pod, the MD of Saw, Matt Lewis. That was some intro. I'm glad we decided you were going to take that. Yeah, employee number one. Been here since the origin, the true the whole journey. So it's a pleasure to have you on finally.

0:58It's long overdue. Long overdue. Well, that was a fantastic introduction, Lucas. Did not expect that at all. People have been planning that for weeks. Hey guys, very quick one. Our sponsors at Wavefly are offering our listeners 25k in upfront capital for a 1.8k on the run-ups to Black Friday, Cyber Monday to give you a boost when you need it most. Imagine this, your ads are finally dialed in, CPAs are down, AOV is up and you can feel the momentum building. But then you run into unexpected costs, which I'm sure we've all seen. Your budgets are nearly capped and your next move, the one that could turn a good month into a fantastic month, depends on cash that isn't landing for another two weeks.

1:41This is how Wayfly helped brands like Wild, True Classics, Dock and Bay, to name a few, achieve growth with funding when they actually need it. They're giving ambitious DTC brands$25 ,000 in upfront capital for$1 ,800 total cost in the run up to Black Friday, Cyber Monday. That's a 1.2 % per month over six months. No equity, no hidden fees, just fuel to move when it matters most. So you can double down on what's working, scale your best performing ads while they're still pumping, stay stocked. As we know, stock can be an issue during this period. so reorder your fastest movers before they sell out and move fast right connect shopify or amazon and get approved in hours not weeks timing is everything often the brands that win aren't the ones with the biggest balance sheets they're agile and ready to act when the window opens so go to the link in the description and get 25 000 in your account next week from the brand that helps you fund your favorite brands yeah obviously i guess what is wanted to start by like touching on the the journey you've been on with us i think just so everybody who's watching is aware before we dive into some like real meaty stuff around agency operations the learnings we've taken this year that are informing our strategic approach to 2026 and then hopefully how that can translate to many of the econ brands listening and what lessons they can take hopefully from how we're operating our business and how we're thinking about strategy but yeah you were the first first team member weren't you all all the way back in yeah in 2019 i think i think it was just after that wasn't it or 2020 i was thinking about this on the train down it was like um it's all a blur yeah and i started freelancing like a bit or like taking on you were very kind enough to like entrust in me to sort of take on the first couple of clients um or just just sort of like give me that opportunity to sort of take on a few clients that you and joe got in the early days um and then it all sort of spiraled from there didn't it and then eventually sort of transitioned to to full time um i remember meeting you in a costa in tad i remember in in a in a summer break between uni years and that's where the first kind of conversation came from and then i think at one point i was running like 20 ad accounts which probably doesn't sound good we don't do that anymore just just to be clear that's definitely not how we run capacity um pre-ai as well yeah it was but that was in the days when you could just run like lookalikes it was like it wasn't easy but it was significantly less complicated you'd just be in the ad account wouldn't you yeah just looking at numbers that's all it was didn't you didn't you decline the job offering first is this is that right it actually yeah your intel serves you this is your eye look um yeah i don't know what it was i think it was it was very early days wasn't it it was it was at the time I considered it still sort of a risk because I was going to I went through university and then you sort of trade during that time to sort of like look for the sort of grad job then I was kind of in that mindset I think back then and that's why I yeah that's why I initially declined it um that's such a negative word I don't think I declined it I was very interested still and then just like two or three months into the job obviously I left and then came back you also had a really good opportunity from a grad perspective was it EY?

5:07it was BWC I would have seen it as a risk I think at that stage because we were very very early but then it was great that you did come back and join and it's been a whirlwind ride from there in the most positive sense of that term more of like a rocket ship I guess yeah absolutely and we've gone from three people to like nearly 80 people I guess across a group so I think it's interesting that you've been there for the full journey I always see you as the stoic leader that operates in the background and just makes things tick in many ways and much of the business I just don't think we'll be able to we wouldn't have got to where we are without the work and processes and things that you've you've brought to the to the company so excited to dive into a lot of that a lot of that through this episode.

6:00I appreciate that it's been such an incredible journey as well hasn't it I think for all of us just like all of us going on that journey like it it's so rare or just becoming more appreciative of like how rare that is to go on as a as a journey and just like through your life so um yeah it's been incredible so far. For sure yeah so maybe let's just start you know looking back before we're we look forward what you know there's there's lots of lessons we've had across the group this year i think a lot that are relevant and can apply to to dc brands and founders listening as well what would you say matt is is one of the biggest learnings you feel we've had uh over the course of 2025 i think one one of the biggest learnings that i've definitely had i think i think we'd all probably like share share this as well um is we we were too focused on potentially like growth and the numbers at all costs sort of thing um and going about that the wrong way if that makes sense so so more um more growth at all costs and like not understanding like how that should be translated uh across the team for the team to be fully bought in i think that's sort of like lessons that we made very very early on and have since corrected um so I'd say that's probably yeah it's probably the first one I would say yeah completely agree and I think that that kind of almost ties into us having a bit of a refresh on culture and almost like re-anchoring you know the the why of of what we're doing I know we went through a a big process of resetting all of our culture pillars and our mission uh which was which was a really interesting process to go through and then how we we tied that into the operations and what we do on a day-to-day basis um i guess yeah we i think yeah a bit big learning from my side was that well previously we maybe had culture pillars or values and they weren't as embedded into into what we do in the day-to-day and how that affects behaviors but i think a big thing that i learned was just around the idea that you know a lot of leaders will set a mission and values within a business but it was from that that seven uh what's the book um seven habits of highly effective people where they were talking there about the idea that great mission and values are built from within the bowels of the organization so we really tied our whole team into resetting those culture pillars where we did a whole day, we brought everyone together.

8:34You know, we ran through what great mission and values look like and almost set a task where people would break into groups and actually, you know, come up with a mission that aligned with maybe some of the core themes that we put forward. And by doing so, we were able to get real buy-in and come to a position where we were able to all build that together versus just, you know, as it describes in the book, the the c-suite just setting values and culture behind their wooden desks in the boardroom um which i thought was was was a really interesting process to go through and i think as a result of that it's really helped instill those behaviors across the business yeah i i agree with that that was such like a that was such a pivotal moment in the year wasn't it oh like the the the actual day that we did for that and like how how how the whole team came together in that room you just like sort of feel the energy and like the shared the shared passion for for what we do and i also think there was a part of that we we kind of with sorenhan becoming closer as a team like up to that point we didn't have shared values did we we didn't have a shared mission statement we kind of did but it was just adapted or adopted sorry so just being able to redo that with with the whole with the whole team um and sort of like come together that was yeah that's that set the course for for the remainder of the year for sure i think what we've we've then done is like and we were doing this previously to a degree but i think a lot of businesses then set those um set especially from a culture perspective but i think it's how you use them through decision making through process and for us we we always kind of looked at them as like how do we use them internally for how like team, communication, hiring process, but how do they also translate externally to our way of servicing clients and providing a product to the market that also aligns with those culture pillars.

10:34So whether that's marketing output, whether that's direct into every interaction with a client in Slack or on a call, it's like making sure that all of our behavior at every single touch point through internal external um engagements is really aligned to that yeah absolutely i also just think that philosophy around getting buy-in first is is is so important i think that's another mistake we've made this year where we've made such a massive instrumental change to the way that people are working in their day-to-day without almost bringing them into that process feeling you know making them feel like they're a part of that process and we that they have an opportunity to give feedback to to support to to get it to the point where it needs to be especially if it's something that's going to really impact the way that they are going to be working every single day so i think that's a massive learning just in terms of if you're you know changing anything to do with operations that's going to you know adapt the way that people are going to be working day to day bring them into that process before just pushing something out to to the business yeah 100 that can be you just applied across everything isn't it um and it feels like it it's it's one of those things that like it's kind of intangible isn't it you can't feel it you can't like track it you can't fully truly measure it but it's something that is so essential to to just supporting where the business is going where any business is going um because it's just like yeah as you say look it's just like the way the way you do things i think it's also get it's that feedback whenever that's a process of gathering feedback as well when you're involving a team in a significant change whether that's culture whether that's process whether that's a way of working um or whether that's like a strategic change i think when you're bringing the people who are going to be executing on that into that process as early as possible that feedback is so invaluable um and i think it always leads to a better outcome for for the team yeah a hundred percent yeah that's obviously one Probably one of our most instrumental changes in terms of values is that kind candor piece, which is empowering people to give open, honest and direct feedback where it matters, that idea of kind, not nice.

12:55And I think having as many touch points for that feedback as possible across the organisation is so important. And I think feedback is a gift, but it's something that needs to be earned through the lens of having like a framework to to apply that you obviously did a really good session on how how like on on that theory of like we call it the saw framework obviously for giving feedback but then it's how it's it's on management and leaders to receive that feedback accept it or explain why maybe they don't disagree if that is the case because you don't always have to accept that feedback and then close that loop so like how have you then taken that implemented a change or looked into the root cause and and come back to the individual that's given that in the first place closing that feedback loop then impact then like will encourage that action in in in the future um and i think that's a lot where a lot of operators probably don't do that with enough intention and therefore feedback won't be as forthcoming and i think that's feedback loops are just such a driver of of business progression whether that's data and ads whether that's from your team whether that's from customers like a lot of what drives business innovation and improvement is feedback in some format but you have to earn it from from the people who are giving it yeah 100 i think you see that all the time it's you know it's it's it's the behaviors that model you know it's it's that thing of show don't say and you you might be really promoting the idea of driving feedback up and down the organization but i think as you say the the biggest problem you see there is you you will take that feedback and not do anything with it and even if you don't agree with it it's about as you say closing that loop and giving context as to why we can't do something because then that validates that they're doing the right thing by giving the feedback.

14:57Yeah, absolutely. And like, otherwise, like if, so we truly believe that, and this is the case, like if you don't, then it just compounds further down the line for an even more difficult conversation, doesn't it? And that's just one area that any agency, brand, just any business that anyone is running, like you've got that duty to make sure that the people within that team and your team are progressing and are learning and are developing in their careers. And that's just one of the most powerful ways to do that. Exactly. I want to come back to the piece you mentioned you both touched on at the very start is this period through sort of end of Q2, early Q3, when as a business we were growing.

15:45We were growing client base. We were growing revenue. We were actually seeing like margin compression. and I think there's multiple reasons for that I think that we can touch on but what we've implemented at the start of this year across the group was this kind of like methodology for like strategic planning and forecasting basically which I think if we look back to 2014 we were doing but we weren't doing with as much intention certainly in store and I think we probably that probably wasn't something you were really doing to that extent in the Hanby business unit and I think the way we did that process has evolved a lot over this year and I'd love to touch on some of those learnings but it certainly felt like we did that process and we probably we were intentional about it but we probably overlooked certain things like the need to grow and really intentionally grow client value so we can increase wage progression in our team so we can bring in better talent so we can service better businesses so we can we can continue to grow the business um i'd just love to dive into that as a as a way of working because i think the process that we run there brings a lot of discipline and it brings a lot of quality to our strategy and i think it's a big contributor to how we grow but it's also something that we've done wrong and imperfectly at times and i feel like we've all learned as as operators um through that lens throughout the throughout 2025 yeah i think to i think to kick that kick off that conversation it's like you're right it's like the first time we properly did it wasn't it with any real structure and like early uh yeah for 2025 and maybe maybe from not having that sort of like view previously or like following that process previously we were very bullish on on growth in general like revenue growth profitability growth like just generally like look to a forecast think what we'd love to achieve this let's just let's sort of set it sort of thing without fully thinking it through not not out of stupidity just out of naivety and that sort of yeah that was probably the the start of that process wasn't it yeah it's like it's it's it's almost like we became too quantitative with the data which is so which is very important but then almost as a result of that we lost the qualitative aspects of what actually goes into that data um which is is you know not is it's still really important because there are obviously a lot of nuances to how how you reach those numbers and stuff that you definitely need to take into consideration as part of that process yeah i agree i think we think as well as part of i'm just trying to think of an example for that it's like uh one one example what one more recent example i guess and we can sort of like go back to the start of 2020 it was we're obviously looking to like partner with brands who are a lot like a stronger fit for our icp but also like our services and who we truly believe we can drive the most value for and by doing that we've got to be a bit more strict in terms of like who we brought on and we went on that journey from you know early early this year to sort of like mid to where we are now and i think as part of that it's like kind of like an e-commerce brand right it's like growing growing your aov and like naturally you've got to do that as you grow the business um but obviously it comes with having to provide more value um but just trying to think of an example with that it's like it's not very it's not inspirational at all to the team to just be like we we want to grow AOV basically so it's like how you think about that is an example is it's fewer clients who will be onboarding so onboarding obviously takes time and and a lot of energy and so there'll be sort of like less frequent onboardings you'll have more time to be able to like go deeper into the clients and spend more time on clients and be more strategic and really think about driving growth and how we're going to drive growth through creative, through paid.

20:01And that's how you transcend that objective, I guess, through the org. Yeah, and looking, I think, that communication piece is really important. And looking at how, it's like forecasts for service businesses are fairly simple. You've only got a few variables to play with, right? you've got average client value or volume of clients i think when we were looking at the start of the year i think it's because of how we've grown the business we've obviously bootstrapped it from a point of like us doing the work directly ourselves to hiring a team to where we are now and it's like probably didn't appreciate the pricing power we had and the ability to how we progressed up market as a provider and the result we almost like had this like understated view of how much value we were driving to clients and we weren't able to make we didn't make those decisions fast enough and then that contributed to i think the wrong approach to to revenue growth through the lens of too much volume and not enough not enough quality and i think that that decision then trickles down into so many so many different manifest in so many different ways across the team like the work we do the decisions we make and ultimately like the impact we're able to drive and I feel like people in a workplace really want to feel like they are having a meaningful impact on brands and they're able to really drive value to the clients that we're working for and I feel like that strategic pivot just had such a dramatic impact on the second half of this year and hopefully it's something that we're going to take forward into next.

21:40Yeah, 100%. It's that and then I think another example is like when you're tunnel vision on chasing a top line but then you forget the other things that that do contribute to that that top line monthly recurring revenue such as like employee mps because the happier people are in a business the better they're going to execute and the more impact they're then going to drive for the business as a result um you know team utilization as well like keeping that at around an 80 versus 100 where we're going to be we aren't going to be retaining the clients because we're not giving the best possible service so i think by us optimizing stuff like making sure the team are incredibly happy in their roles doing less better um and keeping utilization to a point of 80 percent means that they are empowered to do the best possible work for the brands which in turn drives that top line through retention yeah agreed there's there's also um it's also like another thing that came to mind there is sort of like how you evolve the the people within the team because obviously like that that growth of uh sort of client value i guess the value that we're giving clients value we're getting in exchange is is going to come with like the the team have to progress at that same rate right it's the same same in every business um so a lot of emphasis placed around training processes training materials um and just making sure that we're we're really evolving our hiring process to make sure that we're finding the the sort best possible talent um that that we can get and there's that ties into like your point lucas just around like the the core values in the mission statement and just making sure that that's constantly sort of integrated into that process yeah we've definitely been like i've been thinking a lot this year how do you like operationalize curiosity and creativity which is which is very hard to do in many ways like you have to want to on a team level but you know that curiosity obviously radical curiosity is one of our values but i think the one thing i've seen just with talent is like the best people are the ones that are just radically curious about the market the brands they're working on um you know they they they truly live and breathe this space and you You know, I think that comes through the consistent training sessions.

24:01It comes through the vehicles that we've created with context sharing and, you know, learning from data across the business. And I think that's definitely something that going into next year that I'm going to continue exploring more and more because I think it's at least for the creative team, you know, those two elements are so, so important. it's one of my favorite things to ask people on interviews is like where are you where are you learning from like what are your sources of learning i always find that if they're in niche communities if they're really engaged on say certain twitter as a big part of d2c it's like such a leading indicator of their like mindset and their like interests and i think that they're just like an embodiment of growth mindset because they're actively seeking like innovative content that can drive their learning, which drives progress for them and obviously progress for our clients off the back of that.

24:59For sure. Anything else on lessons before we go into looking forward? Probably be good to touch on the internal communication systems and areas that we've really picked up because that's been more or less completely new this year, hasn't it? Not new, new, but the way that we've been thinking about it. I think you brought that. brought that up ollie yeah i like speak to a lot of agency owners through like we obviously do some consulting we do some and like have helped just got a lot of agency owners in our network and i always try and back down like what's the like what are the things that really drive outlier returns or outlier growth in an agency business and i think a lot of that often comes down to the things that are like less sexy from an out from an outside perspective like less of like the marketing less of like the client case studies and a lot of it is like the business operations and like the and I think communication ties into that but I also think that's something that you've had a really instrumental role in implementing in our business from the very start like we touched on it in the episode with Jack last week where we brought in OKRs as a as a method of like setting objectives and priorities at a management level probably way earlier than we probably needed to.

26:19I think it built the right discipline and approach to that. I also think the way that we implemented team reviews and a lot of focus on HR processes and how we intentionally develop people, like a lot of our best people have progressed from within the organization, right? And then I think this internal communication was like the next evolution of that. And I think we're still in the process of building out a best in class approach to that. But yeah, I think as a business grows, the internal comms of how you're communicating vision, culture, strategic decision making across the company is something that needs a lot of thought and a lot of intention behind.

27:05And I feel like we weren't certainly at the start of this year putting enough time and thinking of it through the lens of a process I think it's hard to make communication into a process but there's like fundamentals you can back it down into I think one great example is that I always get really good feedback on is the sales huddles, like the pipeline huddles sorry, so like all brands out there and just the brands that we're looking to who are currently in the pipeline, like the whole team get super excited for the prospect of who they could maybe work with in a week's time or a few weeks time so that's like one one area that's like I know it's like a real big standout there'll be different ways to do that of course but it's just like a really good example of like how to get the team like really bought in and motivated just excited for like what's what's to come that like there's you know the opportunity and ability to work with the incredible brands that we're fortunate enough to work with um it's just one one big example yeah i think to distill that down it's like transparency i think that's one thing we've just been we've become a lot more intentional with this year like it's owning when things are going wrong right and giving you know bring by get getting people bought into the process of how we're gonna improve or optimize whatever that is because i think naturally as leaders you have your blinkers on a lot of the time and you're just doing a lot behind the scenes that people don't actually see so the more that you can be transparent with the whole team at every stage of that process with for you know things that we're optimizing looking forward into into the next 12 months sales pipeline all of these areas and bringing the team into that i think just gets much more buy-in doesn't it i think yeah you mentioned the sales uh example we also obviously do the other side of that like we'll do the monthly the recaps of wins case studies like champion each culture pillar will give will nominate the team will nominate people who they think have have displayed that and and we'll also do that for the mission statement like the the person who's really we feel have been like has been demonstrating that the most across that period through the through the work and the output the putting out and i think that's really powerful like a powerful example of recognition but also again it's reinforcing those culture pillars it's keeping them central to every touch point and it's making it making people very aware that if we can all demonstrate them across our daily workflows our daily interactions with people internally and externally we will achieve that mission statement and i think it all does back down to that that alignment to exactly who we want to be as a business and who we want the individuals that work within that business to to be as and and what we want their character and ways of operating to to look like yeah i think praise comes into that a lot that's one thing you've really driven this year um i think you know it's it's one thing expecting really high standards of a team but that has to be married together with you know platforming incredible work and alignment to those culture pillars like you have to reward people and empower people when they are doing great work and when they show alignment to those values.

30:22So even as simple as just having the Kudos Slack channel, but then on top of that, weekly shout outs across our wider Slack channels for demonstration of great work and how you can tie that back to culture pillars. Because I think that's the narrative that if you align to these values, that ladders up to growth, progression, business impact. so it's important that you shout that out i think every e-com it would be interesting for for everybody watching to try and take that and implement that into the business i think there's a few quick wins in terms of shout outs and recognition there's a few longer term pieces around really making sure that your vision and your culture is set with the right intention and then bringing those two things together because i think we've seen it have a really transformative impacts like from a feedback perspective obviously we're doing client results but it'd be possible to pull up on a on a monthly like a load of um customer feedback of like how this product is transforming people's lives and it builds conviction and i feel like conviction is such an important thing and in like belief that you are providing what you say to that we are providing to the market i think that would transcend to an econ brand in a very similar way yeah i think you can reverse engineer values by looking at who in your team who are the a players in your team who are the killers that have grown within the business the case studies almost and reverse engineering what behaviors they have that have led them to be able to achieve what they have within that and i think that's that really helped us through the process of setting those because those behaviors as we said what what then ladders up to to the success so yeah that's definitely something to think through yeah i wanted to add as well just like from a for for people watching too it's like if it sounds like quite a lot doesn't it like what we're going through and like obviously you've got to be very intentional and like using the right wording and the messaging and like it may feel like there's quite a bit of pressure to sort of like get that right but like the main thing is it's like just showing the team that that you care um and just like making sure that that comes across and i feel like we do a really a really good job at that yeah 100 hey guys very quick one our Our sponsors at Wavefly are offering our listeners 25k in upfront capital for a 1.8k on the run up to Black Friday, Cyber Monday to give you a boost when you need it most.

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34:08Obviously, we started that process off the back of bringing in a CFO at the start of early last year, who I think has helped us shape that approach to planning from a financial perspective. But then looking forward into next year, I think it'd be interesting to touch on how we've maybe set a couple of core strategic objectives that is then shaping how we look at 2026 strategy and the process that we're working through right now transparently to make sure we set ourselves up for success and take the learnings that we've had this year forward and build upon that because I think it'll also be interesting for those watching to because i think it's very applicable to every every business that approach yeah agreed the way the way i've tried sort of like looked at this tried to sort of like structure it is i think obviously at the very start like it's sort of shareholder objectives are sort of like set in terms of like the the growth that there's needed like revenue profitability whatever that may be that's sort of like that's sort of like one way to look at it and like one way to start it um so let's assume you sort of like set a particular sort of like revenue growth target um based on what the shareholders are looking for uh just out of the business um then it's a case of laddering that down into strategic objectives like you say ollie so it's the way i view these like it's best to keep them as simple and as minimal of them as possible um to ensure focus so i'm talking like sort of two or three that can then be sort of like laddered throughout the throughout the whole organization, across all departments, across all functions, across all people.

35:51And you've got to look at it from like two ways as well. So like there's one way to look at it where you're looking at the past data and sort of like identifying, you know, the biggest areas of leverage that will drive that growth. There's only going to be a few that could possibly have that impact. So it's about identifying those based on KPIs that have been the case over the last sort of 12 months where they fall and like, how they are sort of benchmarked against peers as well, like across the industry. So you really know where the opportunity is. And then the other way to look at it is like looking ahead into 2026 and beyond.

36:24It's like marrying up where the industry is moving and where it's going and like where those trends, like obviously we'll talk about AI so much on this podcast. It's like where the changes in the business model may come in and when that may be. It's not even a case of getting it exactly right. It's just making sure that we're sort of building towards that point. So that's how I look at it. And I think that's what's gone into our sort of strategic priorities. It's sort of like that backward view, where the biggest opportunities are, and then the forward view, sort of like matching it all together.

36:55So that's sort of like where we started. You mentioned focus there. We should have mentioned that in the lessons as well. I think Matt Kelly said it to me once, but I always remember the saying, it's like patient in the macro, impatient in the micro. Like things, great things just take time. more time than you think to achieve. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't try and like accelerate timelines where possible, but it is just a nature of building a great business. I think it takes more time than you think. And I think you only realize that through experience. And then also like really drilling down on doing less better has really contributed to our success this year, but I believe we'll continue next year.

37:41I think that view of the industry, and where it's moving is also, I find it now more difficult than ever to think about strategy through the lens of industry progression because we, I think more so than many brands, operate on the frontier of AI. Like AI is probably going to have a more of an impact on us initially as a business model than say an econ brand. So looking at like how content is going to change, how these platforms, how the so many variables involved in that that is just such a difficult thing to think through isn't it yeah yeah exactly i think it's it's definitely been the biggest challenge like video gen this year ai video we just just didn't even think that was coming this year but to the level it has to the point now where we're looking at hiring our first ai videographer like it's I think like we're looking at it through the lens of expect it to come quicker than you think it's going to come almost like the timeline that you think something's going to happen in with AI shave six months off that it's what I've learned at least this year from my own predictions 100 % agreed I wanted to touch on like a maybe tie into an example with us on like the strategic priorities um we've kind of touched on it just just briefly um just briefly now but the uh the the goal of expanding our revenue through uh existing clients which obviously comes with the prerequisite of being able to provide more more value to clients but that is that's a big that's a big strategic priority of ours and a big opportunity and to sort of give give context into that, that was sort of like from looking at past data and just sort of like identifying how we were achieving revenue growth as an agency over the last 12 months and probably beyond that.

39:41It's all through new business. And so you can sort of tie that to the e-com business model. It's like just relying on new customers. Is that sort of like the way to look at it?

39:59It's highlights the area for growth that there is through existing customers or existing revenue expansion. So that's sort of like an example of where we've looked back at previous data and set an initiative around that. Yeah, we massively under indexed. And I think that's largely because we're doing a lot of great marketing. And that doesn't mean that we're, we have, I don't want people to hear that and think we have abnormally high churn rates. It's on a model, on a package, and they stay with us for an extended period of time, but we don't ascend them through layers of value. And you can see that similar to how you'd bring a customer in on a product, but then they just continue to buy only that, or maybe they come back at a six to 12 months timeline.

40:46It's like, right, well, now how do we think about cross-selling them to another skew? Or how do we think about bringing that time to repeat purchase down or just increasing the churn rate on your customer base. It's like those are the levers to pull in increasing retention in an econ brand. For us, it's like, how do we ascend clients up through selling them more services, through providing them more value? I think that's a huge, huge opportunity for us, especially with where content is going into next year. But that alone is such a growth lever and is why it's one of those two real strategic focuses.

41:22Yeah, they say growth without retention is just churn with lipstick. it's a good saying i've heard that one before um okay so we've we've got our we've set our strategic layers or strategic pillars how then are we matt because you've very much led this process with obviously um department head slash c-suite um looking after uh for myself for example how many media feeding into yourself on a group level how then are we turning those strategic pillars into financial forecasting to then you know management buy-in etc yeah so the first step i guess is for you know once once the whole leadership team is aligned on on the the objectives that the growth rate that we want to achieve over the years and yeah as you say like it's a case of mapping it out in terms of a forecast um having leadership input on that forecast initially and sort of like get that initial view and then once we've sort of like got that view we then want to get the senior management team involved because ultimately like managers are there for a reason it's because they're incredible at what they do and they know how for example like expanding existing revenue for example is like a strategic objective like that they know what that means in their context in their sense like through their service and like what they need to do so it's very much like on them to to review the forecast initially feedback on it and then come with new ideas i guess or like alternative ways or like objectives within their department kind of like okrs for example that ladder up to that strategic objective and then once you get that buy-in and like once they've sort of changed certain areas of their for their part of the forecast and thought through a lens of like okay yeah over next year how am i going to achieve this for my department and ultimately the the business and the agency and once they've done that they get so bought in to the process and sort of sort of like visually seeing like how they're going to like implement that themselves but then also like they're so bought into the numbers and believe that they're realistic they're achievable and sort of just yeah bought into that growth i think so when we're going through that process are we looking at when we're looking at the forecast i guess say we've got that strategic objective we've got like personnel changes that we need to make you know in pursuit of that and within an agency context you've got obviously delivery personnel and non-delivery personnel so i guess it's then take it is how are we thinking through that from a forecasting perspective the way we like to view forecasts the way that we approach it is sort of like revenue first sort of like building out that revenue look and then understanding what that means in terms of like how many how many clients how's our client base going to grow over time how's that like average order value or just the value of clients going to grow over time um and then from there you can you can then understand like right we're getting into the like the real nitty-gritty now it's like how many assets would we need to produce roughly um to to be able to provide that value to to deliver to clients over the year and then you then sort of like at a point where you know exactly sort of the the amount of people that you need to then deliver on that without systems breaking or without service delivery suffering um and then it's about making sure that you map that out over the year like okay when when are we going to jump to this next tier of client that's going to put the team over capacity um we want to hire two months before that for example to allow like a month training roadmap map and then sort of familiarity or like shadowing etc um so then it's doing that process but like for every department for every role for for every deliverable um across the the team i think one thing you did really well as well like when i've been working on the hand before cast is setting constraints around like gross profit and ebitda percentages um which which helps then you know give more ownership to say senior management when you're doing those um full-time employee inputs that we need throughout the year and how that then ladders back up to the revenue at the top.

45:39So that was really valuable because obviously, as you said, you're looking at it through delivery and non-delivery, starting through that delivery lens. If we know we need to achieve 40, 50 % gross profit over the course of the 12 months, we're looking at the revenue and then reverse engineering the creative volume that I guess feeds into that and the people that we will need. so we know that by doing that there may be a bit of you know if we're trying to remain within certain constraints on a uh on gross profit and EBITDA there may be a bit of you know adapting there based on the the the people that we need in the business versus uh being able to to stay within um those ranges yeah that's it it's like making sure that managers and everyone who's involved in the forecast like has the tools has the kpis the numbers that need to be stuck to or you know there are thereabouts um to be able to to work out how it's going to be executed um i think you made a really just i don't know focus that on like purely delivery lens um i guess but like looking at from a non-delivery standpoint as well it's like there's going to be team growth there's going to be the the number of delivery roles are going to increase and obviously naturally that's going to include or require um non-delivery staff to support that to make sure that the team are being trained up and we're hiring at the right times with the right people and that the actual the service itself is is evolving as well so it's then that that'll be the sort of step after that it's like okay what what infrastructure it's not just people as well it's like what operations what software um what sort of consultants potentially like what do we need um to be able to like sustain this this level of growth um and there's a lot of nuances in there there's a lot of that'll lead to a lot of questions um but yeah that's that's sort of like the way to look at i think we've got a good pulse on that yeah i think that i think thinking through that lens of like strategy then becomes personnel then becomes like projects it's like that's the that's like the hierarchy of thinking that I've tried to retain because I always feel like whenever you're trying to do some sort of big strategic shift in a business it can feel often if you aren't intentional about thinking about that personnel that's going to own a lot of that it falls on existing people whose capacity is already taken up by a myriad of different things and I think that's then drives the hiring decisions we make which then drives the the the projects that come off that was those individuals come into the business so yeah I think looking through the lens of that that new businesses that that new um that existing MRR piece it's like that's leading to us bringing in a head of client success or head of client um outcome or whatever we want to call that role into next year with the view of them owning and driving that forward and reporting into to us at a leadership level to to ensure that that that's properly resourced and um yeah i think it just requires a lot of intention and and thought so we've we've set the forecast now it's about you know turning that into kpis and execution uh which i guess execution you know things like quarterly reviews delivery uh fall under talk us through then the you know where once we've set that forecast and we've locked that off what are we doing next in the process yeah so so as part of that template um and that forecasting doc there's like a tab that has kpis in in it so so that like really and that dynamically updates it sort of like links to the the full pnl so it like dynamically updates based on sort of like the numbers essentially and and what that what that sort of shows and what's important to get from this forecast for everyone listening is like the specific kpis are going to be owned by the specific people and like managers uh and other leaders in the in the team um so that's really important like having that clarity and tying those kpis to to their their roles their function um and making sure there's like two maximum i'd say just just for that focus it takes a lot of thought to sit down and and work through a business and think about how managers kpis can ladder up to a P &L impact and that's going to differ by by company in an econ brand it's like how does a creative strategist KPIs ladder up to a new customer revenue outcome for the business and that gives you a very tangible way to measure success for that individual which we probably weren't doing enough of that at the start of last year and it I think that brings in that objectivity I think it's really important to not just take what's in there and apply it it's like really sit down and think about what those key things are right yeah yeah exactly it's making sure that it yeah and leaning on the managers to like inform inform you like what those kpis should be for you know the delivery team like within their teams um because again that's their expertise that's where they're great at um so just leaning on them to to feed that up and then agreeing and then like yeah tying it all in as you say ollie because then it it ladders up um from forecast to the whole team and then from the whole team to to the forecast i think there's a big part of keeping a team motivated and empowered is that knowing that the work they are doing is is laddering up to business impact and the more that you can you know show that the better and as you say it's it empowers people to when they're having conversations about progression or salary growth rather that you know that conversation flipping from being oh here's my annual salary review i want to be on this salary to here's the business impact i've created which justifies me being on this salary um which i think is is empowering because it gives more ownership to the individual to be able to to you know justify their own direction and future yeah 100 i mean that's that clarity is key and then as you said lucas there just at the end like it's it's doing right by the people in the team and like that that is that will ultimately like being that sort of focused on a kpi and like knowing the laddering up to the business objectives like having that commercial awareness and understanding is going to mean that you can progress a lot quicker in your job in your role and in your in your career ultimately yeah and i think that's that's been really exciting this year where people have directly created business impact that has meant that you know we've we've that's that's led to growth for this faster growth for them uh in the business in a shorter time period which is which is exciting because it's not as rigid as you know you you have a salary review every 12 months or 24 months necessarily yeah yeah agreed there's um there's certain mechanisms as well as and they were probably like made it sound quite easy or simple over the last sort of like couple of minutes but like the the mechanisms in place for accountability throughout the whole org so it's like just going back to the sort of objectives and the KPIs from there, sort of lathering down to management.

52:46It's having that OKR structure, as you referenced at the start of the call, at the start of the episode, Lucas, having that OKR structure so that the management, the senior management team can set those objectives that then ladder up to the strategic priorities and sort of like align with KPIs. So they then know what they're working on within the quarter, where they need to focus on. And then it's about having those, direct report structures and meetings uh where you sort of like very intentional with what you discuss in that sort of like half an hour bi-weekly just like one-to-one with manager and direct report uh which is very tied to those okrs it's it's tied to the pacing of the kpis and it's just like getting that general update of where yeah where things where things are going this month versus target where things are going but obviously like still communicating as a human attaching the emotional element to that as well like what it means for the team the impact that it's going to have on on uh the individual just like the team in general super important yeah one thing i've loved that you implemented this year that we didn't have last year and i think it's meant that everyone wrote is rowing in the same direction is introduct introducing quarterly themes that then that the objectives ladder up into so it just means that there's there's you know we're all we're all rowing in the same direction and that we are working towards the the same goals and objectives in a sense yeah that's that's it yeah i think that um that's been instrumental in like our turning point of the year as well i feel like a couple of those quarterly themes um have been really really key in in the journey we've gone on as a company over q3 and like now now into q4 um and it just gives that clarity doesn't it it's not only like from a sort of looking at things purely commercially it's also it also informs like training sessions um huddles how we communicate how we tie in the values into all that um and it as you say just make sure we're kind of a corporate term isn't it but rowing in the right direction direction yeah a bit too corporate that one um no i agree it's like the law i just think it's like the law of accelerated returns as well.

55:01And like the idea of focus, like the more that you can get everyone focused in on something, the quicker you'll be able to achieve that. Let's maybe touch on like our quarterly review structure, which again has been something we've updated this year that I think has been really instrumental and obviously KPIs, objectives, they all feed into these sessions. Let's maybe talk through that a moment and how those are structured. Yeah, 100%. So I think they're broken down it's like three or four core core sections um first section is a general sort of well-being check of course so just uh introing with that making sure that just generally like people are happy in their roles um and anything is sort of like flagged at that point um and then kpis is sort of like the next layer down uh or the next section sorry so again like making sure that we've got that live view of like where the person's kpis are sort of pacing in the month versus sort of target um so that's it's very important and then the third section which is like the biggest section and we've sort of like changed this a little bit is like the bulk of the review i guess you've got the and this is where like the core values come in and the mission statement it's like we we break down the review in sort of like or this section into four core parts or like the four core values that we have um we make it clear like what skills fall under those core values um So for radical curiosity, for example, it's sort of like technology and sort of like researching on your own accord, that sort of thing, doing your own, just generally being curious.

56:38Then there's kind candor, which obviously communication skills fall under that. And then for each one of those core values, like the manager has to make, sorry, the team member makes notes initially before the course of review, because it's really important that they're self-aware to the fact of where they sort of fall into those core pillars, those core values, and where they believe their skill sets are. And we ask them to rate themselves out of 10, I guess, on sort of like that structure. And then the manager then makes review comments similarly and what that does is it's kind of like that feedback loop, isn't it, that you were also mentioning, Lucas.

57:19it's like it makes it it aligns expectations because the team members come with ideas on where they feel they fit and fall sometimes they may undervalue themselves sometimes they may slightly overvalue we're all we've all done that from time to time and then it's like it gives the manager like a really good basis for like just directing that like just aligning expectations if they've slightly undervalued themselves and they can say that and just like make it clear now i feel like you've done this better than what you've said. These are examples. And then on the contrary, like if overvalued, it's just about aligning those.

57:58So that's sort of like the rust structure that we work towards. So I can just capture that KPI element and then the sort of more qualitative and core value aspect. Yeah. And then it goes obviously into progression as well at the end, because I think that's one of the biggest things. I think the best team retention is about, obviously it's many different things, but I think one of the biggest reasons that people leave a business is because they don't see a clear line of where they can grow into. So being very transparent with like role progression frameworks that become very quantitative as to like, okay, if you're a creative strategist and you band one, two, three, senior creative strategist, this, you know, you need to be scoring on average this to be able to achieve that.

58:43So it's very clear what they need to do to be able to grow within their role. And, you know, we help them through that self-development to be able to get there. So what you were talking about there, the KPI scoring makes up 50 % of the review. And then the coach bill of scores is the other 50%, which then creates a total score for that quarter, which then can be fed into you know how we work with them to progress them to the next level or band in in their role yeah i think all of that like the the progression roadmaps or role progression roadmap career progression roadmaps and the scoring against culture pillars people some people watching that watching may may feel that's like almost a bit uncomfortable to give people rating against uh against something like a criteria but i feel like objectivity is really like is a thing that is a very positive thing in like in the workplace i feel like having a very objective view of what's needed to achieve the next level of progression and maybe being able to self-analyze like what what you're doing and maybe what you're not doing in relation to that and I think that drives a lot of pace of growth from individuals because it I know from speaking to other people who are who I'm friends with or who are who are in different workplaces like I think that is something that's often lacking from a lot of startups and a lot of fast-growing businesses is a real clear objective view of how do I actually progress and therefore it can like lead to slower growth for individuals or growth in areas that maybe aren't as important even though growth is generally important so i think that's just a yeah huge huge unlock if you can if you can get that into into a management workflow and then i also think intention like management like communication requires a lot of intention like i would probably all been guilty of turning up to like reviews with a team member historically and not doing enough intentional preparation.

1:00:54And I think, again, I've heard cases from friends and family members who have been in businesses where that has happened. It feels like that whole process is rushed, often from either one side or both sides. The employee isn't told to go and spend time preparing for that review and input into that session. They're just coming and being spoken at for 45 minutes. or on the other side the manager is rolling into that review without going and get generating the right context from people who spend all of their time with that individual on a daily basis where maybe they don't have as much oversight so i think for those watching who are growing who are in those roles in business i think it's like really trying to be intentional with that preparation because it'll drive just much better conversation much better like empowerment and team members will feel generally just better about that relationship and i think a lot of progression is so many people say that like your manager is ultimately like your experience of a workplace as well yeah yeah and i've heard that again from from people i'm friends with where it's like the workplace can be amazing the business can be amazing but this the manager that you report into can be not amazing and it can completely drastically shift the the your experience of that role it's statistically the highest the biggest reason why people leave their role isn't it like above above anything else above anything monetary it's a tough it's a tough thing to train i'd actually like to touch on like you've done a lot of work with with certain team members in the business over the last 12 months like building them up into an amazing manager and progressing them from say delivery roles to leadership roles or management slash leadership roles and I feel like you've built a really intentional framework around that how did you approach that yeah I think it's like how you would approach a bottleneck in a process you would start with you would start with the the air the areas of improvement and reverse engineer the inputs to improve on those in its simplest form so I think one thing that that I like to do is 360 feedback reviews to the team or the people that work closest with that individual, which is a good opportunity to get in some data on areas that the person is doing great at, what they're not doing so great at.

1:03:20And then obviously from my own experience and working with them, I'm able to reverse engineer essentially a roadmap that helps them get to the point of where we need to get them to with a very clear objective and timeline with smart goals attached to that to get there. um i think the the other side of that is what you just said it's like empowerment and intention like i think you have to get someone to the point you can't just put something in front of them a training roadmap and let them go off and it's it's about empowering them to believe in themselves and that they can get to that point and putting them in that mindset and giving them the ownership to to be able to go out and do that so and then on the the intention side it's obviously comes down to that roadmap but it's that idea of document demonstrate duplicate like everything that we need to work with them on improving making sure we have clear documentation making sure they are shadowing you enough to to demonstrate so that you can demonstrate what best in class looks like and then shadow them doing that and giving them the the right feedback in a in an empowering and productive way that that you know ladders them to the point where they're they're able to achieve that at that same level um and you know it is you know management great management is very time consuming but it's one of the most rewarding things and it's it's i hate to compare it to this but it's the same as like prompt engineering if you it's you know the input that you put in um equals the output uh that you get and it's exactly the same with management so i think it requires time but then the the return of that and you know being able to see this person and growing to an incredible leader within the business and the business impact that will be created long-term from that is definitely worthwhile.

1:05:16Yeah, I agree. I want to highlight one point of that, Luke, because it was like the, I guess, self-awareness and all you've briefly touched on this as well, like the self-awareness aspect is having self-awareness is a very underrated skill really, isn't it? Because it very much goes into your own self-development and determines like to what level you can you can reach as a as a person and this 360 element of that process or just like getting the broader team members to to give either feedback directly or anonymous who are what other people most comfortable with doing um is is a really big part of that i imagine like a lot of key learnings come from that and like realization moments with the the manager or the person who it's based on is huge.

1:06:03A hundred percent. Because I think most of the time, the reason a lot of people don't like their managers is because a manager a lot of the time doesn't have that much context of their day-to-day. And it's secondhand information that's being passed to them. So it's really important that you're getting a full picture of that through the people that work closest with that individual. I had something that I wanted to wrap all this together, I guess, and captures what we've discussed over the last hour. It's like we've run through the infrastructure, essentially, and the systems in which we make sure that the direction of the business is then transcended across the whole team and the sort of technical aspects and then the sort of meetings and the structures that hold people accountable there.