Anthropic is (almost) Not a Supply Chain Risk - DTNS 5342

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2:54This is the Daily Tech News for Friday, August 28th, 2026. We tell you what you need to know, give you the important context, and help each other understand. Today, Anthropic is now one step closer to not being a supply chain risk in the U.S., But it's not out of the woods yet. No, it is not. We'll talk about that. I'm Jason Howell. I'm Juan Tua Dao. Let's start with what you need to know with a big story. All right. So let's set the scene a little bit, give you a little refresher, because it's been a little while. This is a story we've talked about a lot in the past. But just to kind of bring you up to date, back in March, the U.S.

3:30Department of Defense designated Anthropic a supply chain risk. You may remember, which means that it threatens, or so they say, U.S. national security. Anthropic wanted the Department of Defense to agree not to use its products, like Claude, for fully autonomous weapons or domestic mass surveillance. They said, no, we don't want it used for that. The first is not yet possible, and the second is already illegal, but the Department of Defense didn't want limits on the contract that might constrict it further than the law, let's say. So the department was concerned that Anthropic might actually degrade its products and endanger military missions.

4:15Well, snap forward to now, and U.S. District Judge Rita Lynn found that the Department of Defense violated the First Amendment by designating anthropic a supply chain risk, quote, based on a desire to make a public example, those were her words, out of the company. The judge called it unlawful retaliation. retaliation. Judge Lynn wrote that the decision was not founded on an articulable basis. That's a word that I just never use, so I appreciate Judge Lynn for putting it into my vocabulary. Said, quote, defendants claim that because of Anthropik's increasingly hostile manner through the press and its criticism of the Department of War's views on AI use, defendants cannot trust Anthropic to ensure the integrity of its models, neither the Constitution nor the federal statute invoked by defendants allows them to impose sweeping penalties based principally on Anthropic's critique of the administration's views, end quote.

5:23Judge Lynn also determined that Anthropic was denied due process. That would be a violation of the Fifth Amendment because the decision was arbitrary and capricious. Among the evidence Judge Lynn relied on was the government's continued use of Anthropic products and collaboration on the Mythos models rollout. The judge also determined that Anthropic undisputedly lacks any backdoor access to its technology, allaying concerns that Anthropic might be able to degrade the product at will and on a whim and endanger military missions as a result. So the Department of Defense used two designations of supply chain risk, and this case was just about one of them.

6:07So this is really important to know. This is not the end of the story. The other designation is being contested currently in a court in D.C. This was in California. In that one, Anthropic is also arguing the Department of Defense did not follow proper federal procurement law when making the designation. Anthropic will still be designated a supply chain risk until that other case is resolved. So that's a lot of background, kind of keep you up to date. And I think a lot of people are, especially people who are critics of this happening to too anthropic, looking at the potential, what it says about influence over models, at least here in the US, and would other companies be under the same approach in the eyes of the law.

7:01This is one step forward, but it's not an entire... They haven't moved beyond it yet. There's still more to be said on this story. Yeah. I do think it's interesting. I will just put my cards on the table. I'm very – as limited as my legal knowledge is, this seems to make sense to me that companies do – I mean I don't know all the laws. But of course like we've had many cases where companies do – corporations in and of themselves do have First Amendment rights. Usually that has to do with political spending and other things like religious expression. But, I mean, of course, you know, them as a corporation stating that we wouldn't want to do this or we wouldn't want to do that with our own products does seem to fit.

7:42So that's just it seems like the right tack, at least from that perspective. And I do like I do like the idea of the articulable basis. It feels like you got to be able to tell us why, y 'all. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Like like literally like like in a precise way. Tell us why. um and i don't know i just it is interesting because i i also thought about you know the eminent like i i've always wondered how things like this relate right because obviously companies in general when we talk about things like this they have customers they have users but there is certain rights that a corporation has to their own you know products and and they can revoke you know access and all this kind of stuff when we talk about kind of like regular people i've always wondered again because we are talking about the government where you know legally that obviously it's a different kind of customer a different kind of user and how the law would allow for something like this because i know we always uh there's like the eminent domain right where if the government under certain conditions the government can i want to say take control of your property but you know like they're building a highway so they need to take part of your backyard and as i understand it that also applies to not necessarily even real property but can also apply to abstract things like trademarks and patents.

8:58So I always wonder, you know, I guess I'm just so curious how this plays out, especially with something like AI. I presume that this has taken place for other kinds of products, but because this is the era of AI and Anthropic is such a huge company and this is such a very interesting and singular case, how questions like that will get answered. But I don't know. What do you think, Jason? Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, I think I'm curious. I mean, granted, like I said, not out of the woods yet on this. I mean, I've always felt it was a little strange that the Department of Defense was going down this road while at the same time still continuing to use very publicly in a lot of other ways, Anthropix products.

9:44It never really made a whole lot of sense to me. It's kind of like, well, on one hand, it seems like you're very angry and you're very upset and you want everybody to know it and you've got these cases to prove it. But then on the other hand, you're like, it's okay. We still work with you because we really like these products or because they work over here. And I just, I don't know, it kind of seemed to me to be a little discordant or not very harmonic between. But again, like there's only a certain level of knowledge that I have around how all of this works when you're talking about the Department of Defense.

10:15And, you know, I'm not a legal scholar, just like you said. I am curious to see what kind of precedent this and potentially another supportive ruling in D.C. potentially we don't know how that's going to end up that that might go in a completely different direction but how what kind of precedent this sets for um for other ai companies and their own determinations around what their models can and cannot be used for when it comes to like military use and um you know i think there's probably a bit of a um a bit of a what is the what What is the word that I'm looking for? When suddenly, oh, chilling effect.

10:58That's the word. Oh, yeah. My brain just totally went to sleep there. There is a bit of a chilling effect when something like this happens to a company like Anthropic and the other companies might not be necessarily directly in the crosshairs for something like this. But they're definitely standing aside. They're definitely watching what's going on. and potentially they're making decisions to adhere to their concerns of being the next one in that spot. Does something like this give them a little bit of extra freedom or extra relief from that chilling effect to make their kind of decisions in this regard a little more known or a little bit, yeah, a little bit more carried out?

11:38That's what I'm curious about. No, yeah, I am too. And I think it's a really good point to make that, like the discordant attitude that the government as a whole seems to be making. I mean, basically, they're saying, well, we want to make sure that they don't, because of their beliefs or their ideas about how their model should be used, we don't want them basically sabotaging us, which feels like in and of itself would be a different kind of violation of some law if it happened to begin with. But by what you're saying, at the same time, if they're continuing to work with them, even though they feel like there's a risk, given that nothing else has changed in the absence, they're still using anthropic products.

12:12So it feels like it does undermine the argument a little bit, like we're still working with them right now, do you not still feel that risk of them possibly undercutting or putting military personnel at risk by altering or, again, sabotaging the models? I don't know. I think that's a really good point, though, that it does seem to be, again, a little bit shaky, which is, again, lovely. Articulable... That's a lot of L's in that one. Articulable... Is this now a word that's part of your vocabulary now? It will be. You're going to hear me saying articulable. if I could say it. I'm going to see if I can fit it in somewhere else in this show.

12:49We'll see if we can throw articulable into our discussion in a few other ways. I love it. Well, you know, it is really articulable. It is our gratitude towards y 'all, the listener, for making this show DTNest possible. So we want to take a little bit of time to thank Clifton Anderson, D. Lacer, Brad, and Kevin Morgan. episode prep gets messy when research slack threads and script trackers are all in different places that's where chat gpt work comes in give it the goal and connect to the tools where work happens like apps and files and it can help pull the pieces into a draft you can review without you having to re-explain the project at every step for example chat gpt work can gather team feedback from Slack and use it to suggest updates to a project brief in Google Docs.

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16:59Certified to operate by Shev. All right, there's plenty more we need to articulate today, so let's get to the briefs. Well, Rockstar North Coast Studio head Rob Nelson told The New York Times that a GTA 6 run through the main storyline and some optional side quests took him around 80 hours to complete, that is actually a quite significant increase over the 51-ish hours that Grand Theft Auto V took most people to complete, at least according to How Long to Beat stats. Flow Games also reported that Nelson said recently that GTA 6 currently runs at 30 frames per second on the PS5 and Xbox Series XS, and that currently no decision has been made on a 60 FPS mode.

17:41And along with that little nugget, Rockstar released an extended video showing around 27 minutes of gameplay footage on YouTube. This follows the unauthorized leak of several clips showing gameplay and cinematics over the past week. GTA 6 will finally be available November 19th for$80. Are you in line already mentally up here for this game? It's been a really long time since I played a Grand Theft Auto game. I am not as willfully destructive as most people, so I will be happy to try it. Very articulable of you. I don't know. It's okay. I'm not, I'm not very fun DTA player. I don't like to stack up cars into a ramp and, you know, see if I can hit a helicopter while it's in flight, but I am very glad for everyone who is looking forward to it.

18:30And I actually, this is really interesting that, I mean, now I'm trying not to be mean and wondering whether Rob Nelson, did it really take you 80 hours? Is that a you problem or is that, but I will say if you take it on a lot of time to put into the game as someone who doesn't play a lot of this title of game anymore i couldn't even find half that if i wanted to oh man i will not show you some of the play times i have on some of my games on steam and again that might be a me problem and skill issue but i will say that if we take this at face value that there is let's say 80 hours worth of content that does make me feel better because i think one thing that really stung me and maybe some other people when gta 6 was announced was its price at$80.

19:09I believe GTA 5 was$60 when it released, and that was what, 2023? But obviously, a lot has happened. A lot has happened since 2023. And I guess maybe it's naive to say that, well, I guess I suppose things are, for various reasons, more expensive these days. But I suppose - 2013, not 2023. Oh, no, right. 2013, yeah. It's been a long time. I was like, it wasn't a couple of years ago. No, no, no. Sorry. sorry 20 yeah i got the last number that that second number is very important sorry i was like i was like yeah sorry i was like wow they turned this sucker around fast no no no no sorry i knew i knew enough to know that that was not true no you're right i'm sorry 20 no that's what i meant my bad 2013 oh my gosh um which is to say that of course that's 13 years it's a long time inflation all that kind of stuff not an economist but i will say that if we take it at face value that we're getting what's the math on that uh 60 more content assuming yeah so that kind of jives a little bit and i again this is kind of not official this is some this is like someone playing through and then and then certainly not speed running no so i i suppose that if anything this seems like hey we know it's more expensive we know you've waited a long time for this but maybe you know we'll give you a full experience for the money uh i've never nearly even completed a grand theft auto i again i'm not a very good driver especially what about the 30 fps versus 60 fps thing it kind of seems like in 2026 to be locked into 30 fps or maybe that's standard especially like you know a lot of people i'm sure would opt for if you had to choose between the two better fidelity versus higher frame rate yeah so maybe they're that's fine but 30 fps 26 seems low to me but i don't know yeah i don't so this is this is again like obviously on a more so again i'm not a great gta player so i'm just happy to survive and and not get not get caught but i would i mean i would imagine that would be more of an issue for maybe more of a high twitchy kind of game like you know your counter-strikes you're like first person shooters i honestly don't know whether where grand theft auto falls and that it does feel more like especially since it's more about experiential and spectacle maybe 30 frames per second is fine but yeah i don't know if you're a gta fan and you want that 60 frames per second because you're just way better than me and you need that like high response like that high response let us know yeah as i said i'm not i'm only a tourist in whatever city grand theft auto is going to be set in i haven't really followed too long but i'm sure people will be back feedback at daily tech news kind of along the same tip actually high refresh rate anyways samsung showed off four new 2027 uh release uh odyssey monitors at gamescom these are all aimed at gamers looking to push the envelope so i got a little bit of spec soup here but you'll notice a little theme running through them the 27 inch ips g6 definitely led the pack with the world's first 1100 hertz refresh 1100 hertz 1100 hertz uh at 1080p 600 hertz at 1440p 600 hertz okay meanwhile that's huge in and of itself uh with a one millisecond response time uh that display is expected to ship globally in the second half of 2026.

22:40The G7 is a 42-inch curved monitor, another first for that size with a 16 to 9 aspect ratio, 330 hertz refresh at FHD and 165 hertz at 4K. Then you've got the OLED G8, a 32-inch 4K model with a lot of flexibility when it comes to refresh rate. It's switchable between 360 hertz of 4K, 520 hertz of 1440p, and 680 hertz at 1080p. So a lot of choice there. And then finally, the 49-inch OLED G9 Ultra Wide. Yet another world's first. There's like three or four of these. It's like world's first for its size. 5120 by 1440 resolution. So, you know, that's really stretched. 360 hertz or dual HD mode at 720 hertz.

23:36Specific availability and pricing is pretty much yet to be announced, but I'm guessing with the amount of firsts going on here, things are going to be pretty pricey. In gaming, here's what came to mind for me as a gamer once upon a time, but maybe not currently. There must be a point where you pass the line where refresh rate is actually detectable by the human eye, right? And it's just numbers. So what exactly is 1100 hertz getting you? Because I guarantee you, maybe I don't guarantee, I'm highly suspicious that anyone could see the difference, actually see the difference between 1100 hertz and even half that, let alone probably less than that.

24:18I agree. I agree. And I know that, again, just like FPS, the refresh rate of a monitor does help. super, super hardcore esports where you have to make quick – like your reflexes and your reaction time and your ability to kind of like pinpoint do things is very important. I agree with you. There's got to be a limit. And I kind of – as I – I don't really understand very well, but I figured like somewhere around 300, 500 hertz. I don't really know. That's kind of what – yeah. It feels – that already feels incredibly fast. It almost feels arbitrary. And again, we're still human beings. And between our eyes and the hand-eye coordination between see something, brain, and then whatever clicky game bat or keyboard, it feels like there's got to be a human limit.

25:06But it's a bigger number. And some people, I guess that matters. But this is another one that I'd like to put out to people. Feedback at DailyTechNewsShow.com. Please set the scene for me. what exactly is an 1100 hertz refresh good for exactly i mean gaming you know high twitch gaming and everything like that sure but like what do you get out of 1100 that you couldn't already get out of 600 something or 300 something for that matter like doesn't matter and what kind and what kind of game i'm just so curious like i i know i i'm just i'm just what game what what game i guess has that kind of like high sensitivity reaction like i'm not saying they don't exist i would just be curious like what what class because there's like a lot of different kind of esports and i feel like it's easy to say oh for esports and esports is a it's a thing now it's a huge you know multi-million dollar uh you know um professional sport now like across the different games i would just really like to know i yeah just let us know which which games would this be good for i just love to know all right well back to anthropic anthropic has in positive news unveiled the Model Hardware Standard, a model agnostic interface that is designed to cut the time needed to connect AI agents with physical hardware, namely robotics, scientific and manufacturing equipment.

26:27This would allow developers to bypass the need to build a custom integration for every machine they are writing for. Anthropics says early partners have cut hardware integration work from weeks or months down to hours or minutes because of MHS. It can also work through standard protocols, including Anthropics Model Context Protocol. Now, MHS is beginning with a limited research preview, but the plan is to eventually open source it. Meta, on the other hand, is testing robots to carry out data center tasks like power cycling servers and reseeding components, according to Wired. Meta is evaluating systems from Kinova, Watney Robotics, and ABB at sites...

27:03How many B's did I say that? ABB. Yeah, okay. Yeah, you got them. The appropriate amount of B's. Did I articulate the correct amount of bees? Yes. Okay, so sorry. They are evaluating systems from Kinova, Watney Robotics, and ABB at sites in Iowa and Ohio. Workers told Wired that this kind of automation could remove up to 80 % of certain physical workloads. Currently, those robots still need plenty of our human help to operate effectively. Currently. Currently they do. But, so you're saying there's a chance. But yeah, I think going back to Anthropic, I mean, model context protocol has been a huge success for Anthropic.

27:42They created it. It definitely has become very quickly become a standard that many in the industry have adopted and use regularly. It's one of those things that you're probably using and you don't realize you are. Because if you're using the standard tools nowadays with integrations and, you know, and plugins and all that kind of stuff, they're, you know, high likelihood they're using some form or they're tapping into MCP's advancements. So, you know, whether this MHS is as straightforward of a layer as MCP has been, I'm super curious to see that. I do think it's interesting calling it a standard before it's been adopted.

28:26like i don't know that was one question i had is like can you like announce something and say it's like is it automatically a standard because you announced it or is it a standard once more most people are using it enough that you can call it a standard because oh it's a standard everybody uses it you know what i mean i guess that comes down with semantics maybe but i think that's funny jason i think this is like their standard their field of dreams you know if you design it, the robots will come. I did actually think, because we're the Android people, this is very much like how Android, Google rather, designs their hardware extraction layer because, of course, in Android, we have lots of different kinds of devices.

29:05And to be able to offer developers great access to camera features, like a full-featured camera and other things like Bluetooth and other hardware features, Android does have a hardware extraction layer that presents similarly a standard way of communicating with a you know certain set like a certain common set of you know hardware in this case it's like robotic i assume like robotic arms and i don't know other machinery but just like kind of like very generalized like common mechanisms and then just uh is able to create this layer that where all the kind of nitty-gritty of each individual hardware can be abstracted away or written by the manufacturer themselves and then from the from the more like i guess human uh model model i guess in in in android world it would be human beings uh in this case it would be models have a more like kind of uh the same interface to access a lot of different kinds of hardware so i think this is neat um i do agree maybe they're just being aspirational which is i guess a good thing you gotta you gotta dream it then be it um speak Make it so everybody sees you as it.

30:11I don't know. Yeah. Interesting, though. Yep. Well, another thing that is interesting is that we have plenty of wonderful things in the store. And actually, in case, that's an unintentional pun. Because in case you need a case for your AirPods or AirPod Maxes, we actually have a DTNS case for you. It has the fabulous DTNS logo in the front. And because, you know, like we want to make sure that other folks respect your podcast time. If you turn on the back of this case, it does say, do not disturb. I'm listening to DTNS. And not only that, it is a handy case. It is made of TP material, so it is impact absorbing.

30:54So if you hear a world shattering headline about, I don't know, NVIDIA possibly buying Hugging Face or something like that, and you drop your AirPods, they will be safe in this case, you know, wrapped up safely in your DTNS case. there's also a nice little carabiner for you to take your airpods or airpod maxes we're with you wherever you go um and yeah it's just again buying uh buying something like the airpod case is a great gift but also a great way to support the show go check it out i saw some fridge magnets if you if you want tom uh and actually a bunch of the dtns crew as uh as drawn by len perol on your fridge, you can.

31:33They've got really nice fridge magnets. Go check it out. I'm very partial to the Pure DTNS one. Very nice.

31:47Back to school is busy enough. The last thing you need is shopping that makes it harder. Whether you're moving into a dorm, your first apartment, or just getting organized for the semester, Wayfair makes it easy to get everything you need in one place. Furniture, bedding, storage, decor, study essentials, all at prices you'll love with fast shipping before move-in day. Get everything you need for back-to-school season. Shop Wayfair.com today.

32:16There's a reason millions of people start their day with Morning Brew Daily. Each morning we break down the biggest news in business from the latest tech headlines to why nobody can afford a house right now. All in a format that fits seamlessly into your day. You'll leave each episode of Morning Brew Daily smarter and ready to take on the world around you. I'm Toby Howell. And I'm Neil Freiman. And we're ready to show you that business news doesn't have to be boring. So join us on Morning Brew Daily, available wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we got some quick headlines that are just good to know might make you look smarter in the future.

32:51All right, well, Apple TV is raising its subscription price again from$12.99 to$14.99 a month, making it $1.19 a year. This is the fourth increase in four years. Everything just keeps going up and up and up. Android 17 adds support for encrypted client. Hello, this is a new privacy standard that encrypts the domain name of every site you visit so your Wi-Fi network or your carrier can't see where you're browsing. Apps will have to opt in using a newer networking library before you get that protection. Well, South Korea is giving free AI chatbot access to all 52 million citizens, becoming the first G20 country to treat AI like a public utility.

33:37The beta launches in September. Interesting. I wonder if we'll see more of that. OpenAI, Anthropic, Microsoft, and more than 100 other organizations issued a warning that AI is making cyber attacks cheap enough that companies have only months to really get their defenses in a row to prepare for it. They pointed to a recent AI-generated exploit that happened against a U.S. water system as sort of a preview for what's on the horizon. All right. Well, Meta is closing a loophole that let people record with their smart classes even after covering up the recording light. Now the camera automatically shuts off the moment that light gets blocked mid-recording.

34:18Yeah, there were some protections for if it was blocked and it was already blocked and you started recording, it would not allow it. But the loophole apparently was if you hit record and then you covered it while it was recording, it wouldn't automatically detect and stop. And now it'll do that. That took a little too much effort for people to figure out. I'm so sorry. I mean, goodness gracious. Okay. People have their reasons apparently. Certainly. Blue Sky added a toggle that keeps your posts out of its Discover feed. This is for people who'd rather post to their followers and not necessarily go viral by accident.

34:55It follows you to other apps as well that are built on the same AT protocol that Blue Sky uses. Awesome. Well, NVIDIA shipped its first H200 chips to China under a new U.S. licensing deal, but says it expects zero data center revenue from the country this quarter. CEO Jensen Huang said the demand is there. U.S. export limits just cap what NVIDIA is allowed to sell. Yes, indeed they do. And finally, Australian researchers strapped drug delivery gear to giant burrowing cockroaches so that they can crawl into disaster zones that humans can't actually reach and then inject victims who were buried in the rubble, let's say, with essential medicine.

35:43In testing, they hit their target 100 % of the time and delivered the drug successfully 90 % of the time. So I know it's easy to hate on the cockroaches, but in this case, don't hate on them. They're doing good work. That's awesome. Apparently, they're called paraborgs. Paraborgs. That sounds like a Saturday morning cartoon. It really does. If that even still exists, I don't know. A Netflix cartoon. There you go. We end every episode of DTNS with some shared perspectives today. Komi wonders if blue light glasses might help fight jet lag. Yes. And if you're on audio yet again today, I am in the dark with my glasses preparing for a trip to Japan.

36:24So this is very apt. Thank you, Komi, for writing in. And they write, thank you for telling us about the TimeShifter app and the science behind it. I will definitely use it next time I go to Asia or Europe. Both Tom and the listener John on DTNS 5334 said they had trouble getting bright light without disturbing the people around them. I thought, why can't we come up with a personal advice that shines blue light into our eyes? I did a quick search and sure enough, there seems to be at least a few products in the market already. I have no idea how good they are. um and just like as i guess as a note before we start that um just to say that uh this is a i do think it's a good idea and and we saw some examples and they look interesting they they're probably safe so i know like the idea of shining light into your eyes probably probably probably goes against everything that your mom your dad and your teachers have been telling you for years about not looking into the light but you should but these glasses are probably safe but you should still ask your doctor to be sure that they don't damage your eyes.

37:23There is a paper that I believe Tom found for us that claims that basically they do have... I found on the helping... So your mind might vary in that the claims on blue light, not injecting because they're shining, blue light emitting glasses, mostly there are claims from the makers of these glasses. So your mileage might vary, but they seem to be safe enough. Consult your doctor first. Yeah, I would definitely consult your doctor on something like that. It does go against the standard rule, right? Yeah. And if you look at some of the examples online, so we were chatting about this before, but I mean, I have like LED masks from my skin.

38:09I know we've talked about that in the show. Even just having an LED light adjacent to your eyes is very bright. I like to think I can see with it on, but honestly, when you're having these colored lights in your eyes, it makes the details hard to see. So if you do do this, just sit down and hang. I guess don't move around too much. Do not try to operate heavy machinery. Yeah. But yeah, it's a good idea. I was lucky that both my husband and I are doing this, so we're turning the lights on at 1 a.m. Yes, we have to have the lights on at 1 a.m. for a time shifter. But that's a really good point that maybe not everybody can turn the lights on late at night at the bedroom.

38:47I call it bedtime for you, isn't it? Oh, my gosh. It is, isn't it? So we'll see how it goes. Oh, my goodness. All right. Good luck to you. But thank you so much, Kome, for the feedback. And also I think this is, again, a cool community thing that we've all been trying together, Time Shifter. If you have any insights, questions, thoughts about a story, a weird thing that we're doing that makes the thumbnail of our videos very odd, we would still love to hear it. If you have any insight, email us, feedback at DailyTechNewsShow.com. Yeah, big thanks again to Kome for contributing to today's show.

39:23Thank you for being along for Daily Tech News Show. You can keep us in business. And, hey, we'd love to be staying in business for a very, very long time. Just become a patron at Patreon.com slash DTNS. This week's episodes of Daily Tech News Show were created by the following people.

40:06For mods, Beatmaster, WScottis1, BioCow, Captain Kipper, Steve Guadarama, Paul Reese, Matthew J. Stevens, a.k.a. GadgetVirtuoso, and J.D. Galloway. Mod and video hosting by Dan Christensen. Music provided by Martin Bell and Dan Luters. Art by Len Peralta. Acast ad support from Ali Gallo. Patreon support from Bobby Wagner. Our guest this week, Dr. Gary Tolbert. And thanks to all our patrons who make the show possible. The DTNS family of podcasts. Helping each other understand. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

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42:11Thank you.