NVIDIA's Next Big CEO - DTNS 5394

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2:18This is the Daily Tech News Show. Big Tech Question, where we look at the tech news this week and ask what it means. I'm Tom Merritt. This week, the big questions are, who should be NVIDIA's next CEO? Isn't there any other question? Actually, there's a ton of questions around that whole topic. We also are going to talk about whether we want an agent to run our smartphone, and if Google's Android XR has solved the glass hole problem. Joining us here to draw the top tech news of the week is Len Peralta. What's the good word, Len? Oh, the good word. You know what? The word this week is dog. Yes, it is.

2:57Very well. I think we'll talk a little bit more about that in the show. We'll go with dog. Yep. But first, today's tech news. Here's Sarah Lane and Jason Howell.

3:09A global Microsoft outage has continued since midday Thursday, affecting users of its cloud services, including Outlook Mail and Copilot. but it may have affected you because it's affected a lot of folks. It's being described as on par with the outages related to CrowdStrike back in July of 2024 and a major AWS outage in October of last year. This has affected governments, infrastructure, financial operations, and healthcare. Microsoft says there's no evidence of malicious activity but, quote, a problem that's causing servers to fail automated health checks and become unavailable. The company says it was making progress, restoring service Friday morning.

3:51Maybe that blue screen will go away eventually on all of it, figuratively speaking, of course. OpenAI launched ChatGPT Wallet, which lets its AI agents buy things for you without the agent or the store ever seeing your card number in the process. Basically, you add your card once, you approve each purchase with either face ID or fingerprints. So you got that authentication. And the card network hands the agent a stand-in payment token in place of the actual number. It also keeps your card's rewards and dispute protections intact through the transaction, thankfully. For now, it's limited to U.S.

4:30ChatGPT Pro subscribers, 18 and older, with eligible credit cards. Sort of related story here. Meta's Muse AI agent can now call U.S. businesses on your behalf. After limited testing back in September, Chief AI Officer Alexander Wang says it can handle calls to a cable company, your insurer, maybe the DMV or a restaurant without online reservations. But it does require a paid subscription that starts at$20 per month. Businesses also might hang up on you when they realize it's AI calling. Not everybody's into this. Calls stay paid only, but a Muse email address will open up to free users soon. hmm all right yes we're going to talk about that guy reuters reports that jensen wong had a third affair this time with an as yet unnamed nvidia employee that of course follows earlier reports of relationships with vice president of health care kimberly powell and with alice wong who is a former executive at data center company megaspied who u.s intelligence have reportedly suspected of spying for China.

5:37Interestingly enough, the story that just won't quit, U.S. Attorney General Todd Blanche says the Justice Department has not concluded whether Alice Wong was in fact a Chinese spy. Blanche says the FBI is investigating and hasn't made a statement one way or the other. China has always denied the allegations since the story broke. Jensen Wang resigned as NVIDIA CEO on Thursday, left the board, leaving CFO Colette Kress, serving as interim CEO while the board searches for a replacement. And people have thoughts, and we will talk about those thoughts a little bit later in the show. Heck yes, we will.

6:14Brain implant company Synchron has paused enrollment at trial sites in the U.S., Australia, and Canada for its second-generation Stentrode. This is a device that threaded through a blood vessel to sit next to the brain's motor cortex. Now, C-Cron shared it found a problem with the lead. The lead is the cable that's carrying signals from the implant to the electronics and that there are no safety issues tied to it, thankfully. The company says it will upgrade the whole system before enrolling again, hasn't given a restart date. And these trials are actually one step toward a larger study that it needs in its seeking of FDA approval.

6:55Slate Audio has a navigation option for its electric pickup. It's calling Screenless GPS. Hmm. What's that, you may ask? It's a physical road atlas. Yeah, made of paper. Laminated paper, but paper. The company is selling the spiral-bound Rand McNally 2027 Road Atlas for a limited time, if you buy the pickup, with 154 pages covering the U.S., Canada, and Mexico. So not worldwide, but, you know, it's got North America covered. Might sound kind of gimmicky, but you might recall, if you've been following this startup, Slate Trucks don't have built-in infotainment screens on purpose. And that's how they're keeping their prices down.

7:37The truck goes for about$25 ,000. Other trucks would be a lot more. The dashboard display does handle speed, range, and the backup camera. It does have two USB ports that offer power, but not connectivity. So for directions, BYOM, bring your own map. I remember those Rand McNally things. Those were a big deal way back when. Google released Gemini 4 Hydrogen for everyone on Thursday, a fast, efficient model that replaces the flash name that you're used to. It's aimed at everyday coding and agentic tasks. Google says it scores 51 on Artificial Analysis Intelligence Index. That's edging out its higher-end Gemini 4 Argon, which scored 50.

8:19It's now the everyday assistance model inside of the Gemini app. You're going to see it. It's also coming to Google Search, AI Studio, the Gemini API, and Gemini 4 Business. India's central bank gave Paytm preliminary approval to bring back its digital wallet through subsidiary Paytm Payments Services. The company has to submit a systems and cybersecurity audit report within six months, or that approval will expire. And it still needs final authorizations before offering wallets to customers. The service was disrupted back in 2024 when regulators barred Paytm Payments Bank from accepting deposits and wallet top-ups over compliance problems.

9:03That bank lost its license earlier this year. The new approval goes to a separate subsidiary. And finally, South Korea's government says Google has removed latitude and longitude coordinates for South Korean territory from Google Maps and Google Earth. That was one of the security conditions on the permit Seoul granted in February, which is a reversal of two decades of refusals. That permit lets Google send high-precision Korean map data to its servers overseas. Google will also delete street view imagery in and around military and security facilities. The payoff could be full turn-by-turn directions in Korea using map data processed locally by Korean navigation company TMAP, possibly starting next year.

9:48So, Tom, next time you're in Seoul, Google Maps should get you more than just a train schedule. Cross fingers. I mean, you know, Naver Maps is fine if you can read Hangul, but it's nice to use the Google Maps. And who can't read Hong Kong? Seriously. Exactly. My joy. DTNS Live is made possible by you. Thanks to every single one of you out there who supports us, including Leah Todd, Alo, a.k.a. Adam L., Philip Less, and Howard Yermich. Yay! With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. Whether you're leading a big project, planning an elaborate trip, or trying to balance work in life chat gpt can help give it a goal plus things like files notes or project plans and it can help you build a templated deck develop a trip itinerary with daily updates or create a prioritized schedule so you can spend less energy sorting out the details and more on bringing your biggest ideas to life get started at chat gpt.com colon cancer is on the rise it's the second

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13:44it is time for the big tech question of the week this week nvidia co-founder jensen i don't know if you've heard uh he admitted to having an extramarital affair uh with the ceo of a client who may have been a chinese spy we don't know uh and then later in the week it was reported he had an affair with an employee and as you just heard a second one possibly uh by thursday jensen wong had resigned as the CEO of NVIDIA and the chief financial officer, Collette Kress, has taken over, as we talked about earlier, while the board looks for a replacement. And so we decided, you know what, NVIDIA, you've got a lot going on.

14:20We're going to help you out. The big question is, who should be NVIDIA's next CEO? Vote on which side you would join in our poll at patreon.com slash DTNS. I'm proud to say that both Rob Dunwood and myself have received votes from you in the poll. So thank you. If elected, I will not serve. I'm only laughing because it means we're all so rich. I guess that's true. But we're going to act as if we are the board of NVIDIA and take nominations for candidates. At the end of this, we'll come to our consensus of who we think should be the next NVIDIA CEO. And I'm sure I'm positive that they're going to take our opinion into account uh we will open the nominations uh with a joint uh nomination when toy down and sarah lane you both uh think uh the same person should probably take over nvidia uh who wants to go first here sir do you want to go first or uh i can um or you let's just be polite to each other okay so so lisa sue of amd um i think makes the most logical sense.

15:31Now, much ado has been made of the fact that Jensen Wong and Lisa Su are cousins over the last couple of days. This is something that's been known for a while. And she has said publicly in the past, like as far back as 2024, sure, we were first cousins once were moved. So not exactly first cousins, but, you know, somewhat large families. But they did not know each other until they were adult executives. So I don't think that's part of this. I just think that as NVIDIA's big competitor, maybe she wants to stay at AMD and that would be her prerogative, right? But if she were to jump over, she would probably know more about how to run this business than pretty much anybody else.

16:19Yeah, I guess just to add on, I think that, and again, this is not my wheelhouse, so I'm just talking out of my butt, but in terms of maybe stabilizing like the image and like kind of the sentiment around nvidia right now lisa has a really like great resume obviously she has like technical acumen and obviously her work at amd and turning it around from were they like like close to bankrupt like you know like the last 10 years um the amd story has been really good so in terms of just being a like i guess stabilizing force um it would i think she would be a good choice again just because of her both like engineering acumen as well as like the business side of the success as well and of course being so like so close two businesses that are very, very close together, I wouldn't mind, honestly.

17:01I don't know if it will happen, but I think it would be an interesting choice. Yeah, her name is definitely being bandied about as a potential successor, simply because AMD is such a similar business. Roger Chang, who do you think might want to step into the CEO office?

17:19Robb Dunewood: I threw my hat in the ring for the existing interim CEO, which is Colette. Her background is more financial, but I honestly think that's kind of what the company needs at this point. Now, I know there's been friction between Jensen and Colette recently. He made an unfavorable comparison between her and an animal in a vehicle headlight. But I think... Why do you say it that way? You can say deer in a headlight. Deer in a headlight. So upset. All right. All right. Deer in a headlight. And she and Jensen had multiple frictions over the amount of financing that Jensen was willing to give buyers of their chips in order to secure sales.

18:09Robb Dunewood: And it was something she was very nervous about. And I honestly think her instincts on that are a lot better than Jensen's. I'm not going to be a prognosticator, but there are reports that without that financing, the amount of interest in buying NVIDIA chips is slowly degrading as other companies come up with alternative solutions to something that's more affordable for them. Yeah, all right. It's good. Good argument. And wouldn't be the first time an interim CEO ends up being the choice. Rob Dunwood, I think you kind of partly agree with Roger. I partly agree. So one of the things that I think about with NVIDIA, whoever the next CEO is, they're not there 10, 15, 20 years.

19:00Robb Dunewood: That's not what is required right now. They're probably there through the end of the decade into the beginning of the next. So you might be looking at a four or five year run. Because of that, I think that Colette Kress makes sense because she knows the numbers and NVIDIA is about to be under unprecedented regulatory scrutiny on everything that they do, everything that they ship, everything that they sell. So she probably has the best handle on that. I also think, though, because I am such a BlackBerry fan and I did not actually mind that back in the day that Research in Motion had co-CEOs, one ran engineering and one ran the company.

19:38Robb Dunewood: And I think that NVIDIA could do that as well. So I think that although Colette Kress absolutely would would nail the financial stuff, which is which is a big part of this. They still are a big hardware manufacturer. And I think that Ian Buck would be able to hold that down. So I could actually see the company going with two CEOs, you know, a Colette Kress to run operations and a Ian Buck to run hardware. I think the pairing of the two would probably do the company well because they know where all the bodies lie, so to speak. They've been there forever. They know what's going on. They, you know, even though they, you know, in some cases had contentious relationships with the former CEO, they worked well together for the company to be one of the biggest companies by market cap that Earth has ever seen.

20:26Robb Dunewood: So that being said, I think that, you know, a good look might be to folks because whoever it is, I don't see them being there a ridiculously long amount of time. It's going to be, OK, get the ship righted for the next half a decade and then you make your make your adieu. Yeah. And co-CEOs work for Netflix. They can work. They don't always work, but they can work. Ian Buck, of course, often credited with inventing CUDA, certainly led the team that invented the CUDA software, which really, if you read Roger Chang's column on Patreon this week, you'll have a really good history of what NVIDIA has done with chips and how CUDA really put them in the position to become the behemoth that they are today.

21:12So, yeah, that could make sense. Ian Buck on hardware, Kallak Kress on operations. uh let's uh let's see if jason agrees jason what do you think yeah i mean what you're saying rob actually kind of wins me over on the co-ceo idea i was going to kind of just go with ian buck um vp um kind of with a caveat though because he would be kind of the obvious to me like era parent internally being close enough to in some ways to some of jensen wong's um kind of priorities in in the last couple of years, especially around kind of the open models kind of push and all that kind of stuff, being so close to the CUDA software, understanding the architecture of the software and other development teams and the GPU, the importance of the GPUs to their business and everything.

22:02Ian Buck seems to have a lot of people talking about him as well in predictive markets for whatever that's worth, but I don't really pay attention to those, but I'm sure there's something behind that. I think my caveat, though, is does NVIDIA need someone who can immediately move in as the heir apparent internally? Or do they actually need someone who's external to the company to come in and clean up the mess? And I'm not entirely certain that Ian Buck would be the best person to clean up the mess that, you know, because it's not just about taking over the role from Jensen Wong. It's about kind of untainting what's going on right now.

22:39And maybe someone externally, like Lisa Su coming in, maybe that's a better approach for that. But if you're going internal, I would say Ian Buck. All right, we got a lot of very reasonable candidates, candidates that I've definitely seen analysts talking about out there. So for a change of pace, Ron, what do you got? Well, I mean, a change of pace and a good lead in there, Jason, thank you. I think he hit the nail on the head in terms of looking externally. And the idea of Lisa Su leaving AMD is pretty out there. But if you want to go even more out there and more external, you should look at someone like Gabe Newell, the CEO of Valve, which is kind of like a left field kind of crazy.

23:21Yeah, I like it. Crazy thought. But if you think about it, Newell has got a lot in common with NVIDIA. You talk about CUDA and what they've done, what NVIDIA has done. Everyone knows about their dominance with their chips, but it's really the software ecosystem that's locked people into the NVIDIA hardware. That's exactly what Newell and Valve have done with Steam. They've built an unbreakable software emote, and they're very kind of parallel stories when you break it down. Also, Newell has built Valve to be a very efficient, profit-minded company and has been able to drive a lean business. And when you look at their numbers, they have a higher profit per employee than Apple, Google, or NVIDIA.

24:11So he's a very, very accomplished executive. and given Valve's deep history in the gaming space and also knowledge of NVIDIA's business and knowledge of GPUs, there's a deep understanding of the technology and deep understanding of what that whole business looks like. And Jason, when you talk about having to wipe the slate clean and do a fresh start, no one else in the technology world has more goodwill than Newell, especially with gamers, but also kind of out there in the world as being known as generally a good guy and making good decisions and being kind of a – a lot of people put him up there as kind of like a patron saint of PC gaming.

24:51It would totally change the cultural vibe of NVIDIA nearly overnight. Now, that said, he does have no patience for corporate BS or – Valve is a privately held company, so they don't have stockholders to deal with, and that would be a major culture shift for him to deal with. So that might be a big obstacle. but it's a crazy idea and sometimes crazy ideas are the ones that work so i like it you make a good case for gabe newell uh i i think probably the only objection really to any of these is if they would want the job right does gabe newell want to be ceo of nvidia i don't know maybe he lives on his he lives on a super yacht he's not yeah yeah yeah and he and and nvidia um jensen wang had that the the flat structure where he you know with there's like 60 people reporting to him And Gabe Newell is – it's even worse than that.

25:47There's a no bosses policy at Val. Yeah, so he would – that would be an advantage to Gabe Newell is that he would slot into that very well in a way that Lisa Su or even Collette Kress staying in the role probably doesn't want to continue to do that. But Gabe might do that. I guess that's the other question with Lisa Su is if she also would like to do that or if she's happy staying at AMD. There is a Reuters report out right now that actually, I'm sorry, it's a Financial Times report out right now that says, according to people familiar with the matter, the board has approached Rene Haas, the CEO of Arm.

26:23If you recall, back in 2020, NVIDIA tried to acquire Arm. It could not get antitrust approval for that. And so it didn't happen. But Rene Haas used to work at NVIDIA. So this has become one of the favorites on the prediction markets is that you get Rene Haas, who knows NVIDIA, who knows this space, almost became an heir apparent with the company getting acquired by NVIDIA. And maybe he brings some of those chops over. Seems to be a favorite out there as well. I'd probably say to me, it seems like he's the front runner as much as we have a front runner. And this Financial Times story kind of puts a little bump on him as well.

27:06So, OK, other ones we didn't talk about. I've seen a lot of folks bring up the internal EVP of operations for NVIDIA, Debra Showquist, because supply chain is key. A lot of people pointing out that that helped Apple when you brought Tim Cook, the supply chain guy in. Maybe Deborah Showquist would be good. She is getting older. And I only say that like she may not want to be in this job because she may be headed for retirement. But if she's not, she would be an excellent choice as far as having the experience and the knowledge here. I've also seen Johnny Sruji's name, the Apple chief hardware officer, because he's in charge of Apple Silicon.

27:49So that could make sense if he wanted it. There are lots of other folks out here. I've even seen some people wonder if maybe Jensen Huang's son-in-law, Nico Keppras, might be elevated. He does a lot of the cloud sales and data center deployments there. Outside names being thrown around include Eric Schmidt or former Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger. So, you know, just to give a broader scope to that. Now that we've heard everybody's nominations and everybody's arguments, can we come to a consensus pick? What do we think? Jason's just laughing. That's going to be hard to get all of us to come to a consensus pick.

28:29There are a lot of people in the running. Is anybody like, yeah, I liked my nominee, but I could back a different one as well. Yeah, go ahead, Wyn. I was going to say, I think Rob and Jason have switched me over, especially the idea of co-CEOs, because I think what's compelling about Jensen Huang is, again, both the engineering and the business acumen, which is kind of like, you know, a little bit hard to find in a singular person. And obviously he's like foundational to NVIDIA. So it'd be hard to like directly replace that. So I think the idea of going with a dual CEO where you could maybe kind of replace a singular person but with two very competent people to address both sides of it is actually pretty compelling and might just make for a good change of pace, if you want to call it that, after all this sermon.

29:14It might even serve as a good transitional situation for several years, but you could do this to stabilize the ship and then maybe someone else becomes more identified or maybe you buy ARM in the intervening time.

29:29Robb Dunewood: The thing with co-CEOs is you really need to have both of them sort of work synergistically and not be at odds. Yeah, we don't know the working relationship of Ian Buck and Collette Crest. if it's a good working relationship, then it works. But you're right. If there's any kind of friction between those two, not saying there is, but if there were, then it might not be a good choice. Yeah, those folks have to be friendly towards each other. They can't always be at odds that that wouldn't work because ultimately one does not outrank the other. It's just that we've decided that on this business area, this person is going to run things.

30:14Robb Dunewood: And in this other area, this other person is going to run things. But they still have to have very, very good conversation between themselves on when those two areas bleed into each other. So that's definitely a caveat here to make co-CEOs work, which worked very well at Research in Motion with Jim Basler. Yeah, they don't need to be best friends, but they just need to have a level of respect of each other's areas. Yeah. So, Ron, would you back a recommendation of Ian Buck Collett Kress, co-CEO? Yeah, because we're seeing it. The more complex these organizations get and the bigger the market caps get and the larger the numbers are and all this sort of stuff, we're seeing it work in more and more companies.

30:58It's hard for one person to shoulder all the responsibility of every aspect of a business. So I could see that working. All right. Well, if Ron joins, then Sarah, it doesn't matter what you and I think because we'd get outvoted anyway. But what do you think? Have I flipped my pick? Could you support a consensus pick of co-CEO Ian Buck and call it Chris? Sure. Like everybody has already said, co-CEOs can work really well. Um, they most often don't because it's two people in very, very big positions of power that, um, that, uh, you know, you have, you have to have not just respect, but, you know, back off kind of thing going on and for everybody to be on board with that.

31:44So I think it's possible, but that's, that's all I think. Yeah. All right. Well, like I said, at this point, the consensus pick seems to be that I think Rene Haas is going to be the guy. I think the fact that we got this Financial Times article, the fact that he's former NVIDIA, the fact that he runs an organization that has enough overlap with this, and the fact that NVIDIA even wanted to get ARM is all going to make the board want it. And Rene Haas seems like the kind of person who'd be more likely to be willing to go back to NVIDIA. Maybe one of the reasons he left was Jensen Huang, and now he doesn't have to worry about that.

32:25I'm not saying that's true, but if it were, that would be an issue. But I like our consensus pick as well. I think if, again, with all of the caveats that we were saying about co-CEOs, having Collette Kress continue to run the more financially responsible version of NVIDIA, which some arguments might be that's a bad thing because you need that go-go, you know, let's keep the momentum going because that's what investors have wanted. But, you know, combined with Ian Buck driving the hardware strategy forward, that's a safe pair of hands on the wheel strategy, which maybe investors will be okay if they're not doing the go-go stuff that Jensen Huang was doing now that they've had to live through this controversy.

33:09controversy.

33:12Robb Dunewood: Yeah, with with Renee Haas, when I'm talking about the go go stuff, it's the investors have said, no, you've got to keep triple digit growth in Target. And Jensen Wong has been going out like, great, we're gonna make a deal with them. We'll backstop their debt so they can buy this much to to keep that flywheel going. And I think Kala Kress was the one like, hey, let's slow down on backing all the debts. And that would probably continue if she stayed as co-CEO. Go ahead, Rob. What were you going to say? I was just going to say with Renee Haas, billion-dollar compensation package would be quite appealing as well.

33:50Robb Dunewood: So it's like the numbers of someone coming in, someone like him coming in, they would get paid ridiculously well for the foreseeable future. So there's that part as well. Folks that might not otherwise do it say, I'll take a billion dollars. Did you say B? I'll do it. I think collectively we're all available. I think we do a bang-up job. We can all be co-ceasing. We have some spreadsheets we can look at. I'll try. How hard could it be? The move nobody saw coming, DTNS has become co-CEO of NVIDIA. Listen, all I'm saying, NVIDIA Shield, we're going to bring it back. We're going to do another version of it.

34:33I think that's the future of the company.

34:35Robb Dunewood: So here's the question. If they bring us on to run the company, could we outlast a standard Scaramucci? Could we make it a standard unit? How many Scaramucci's do we get before they let us go? What's the half Scaramucci that recently... Zachariah. Yeah, yeah. I think we could go multiple Zachariahs, but I don't know if we outlast a Scaramucci. All right. We got some other stuff to talk about. But before we do, Sarah, what's on Live With It this week? Well, I'm glad you asked. Tom, Live With It, if you're not familiar, tackles all the tech in our lives. We've all been on the show. We have some of the folks from our audience being on the show as well.

35:20It's a lot of fun. We're either vouching for something or it doesn't work so well. We try to be really honest. This week, Eileen Rivera is living with the Osmo Pocket 4P. That's a portable cam. She had to buy outside the U.S. That's a good story. But it might be your next best vlogging option. We're on YouTube at YouTube.com slash at LiveWithItShow. And big thanks to all of our patrons. You keep us trying out new things. Join us, won't you? Patreon.com slash LiveWithIt.

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37:25Google's November Pixel Drop expanded Gemini to handle things like ordering food and rides, along with proactive suggestions based on context. And we're starting to see startups like Cyclone introduce AI phones that take this concept even further. Earlier this week, we talked about the co-founder of the Cyanogen mobile OS, Kurt McMaster's company, Quora Systems, creating an OS that integrates generative models and agents right at the operating system level. So the question becomes, is an AI assistant that takes action across your apps the next great smartphone innovation? Our next question of the week, do we really want AI agents running our smartphones?

38:05Taking the position of yes, send in the agents is Ron Richards and Sarah Lane. On the side of no, I like icons. I like tapping the way it is. That feels better to me is Huan Tui Dao and Roger Chang. and in the swing seat still deciding their answer listening to both these teams will be jason howell and rob dunwood so we'll start off with the yes team uh you guys have two minutes go for it to kick us off wrong all right um been thinking about this a lot since we were talking about it over on android faithful this week um i've been a little hesitant about the whole ai agent thing and whatnot and if we take the put the ai thing aside about it we've been covering smartphones for nearly 20 of years now, and they're super powerful.

38:47We can do so much with it. But honestly, over the last 15 years or so, it haven't changed that much, right? Everything's pretty much the same. We take our phone, we open an app, we do something, we close it. We open another app, we do something, we close it. We're switching between apps, navigating menus, entering information, entering in forms. How many times are we doing repetitive tasks over and over again? And that's the thing. I'm getting really tired of using six different apps to accomplish something. I just want to do the thing. If I want to arrange dinner with Sarah, I don't want to have to check my calendar, open up the messaging app, text her, then search for a restaurant, then open up OpenTable, and then open up Uber and then do all this sort of stuff.

39:26Why can't I just tell my phone what I want to do and have it be done? And that's really what the promise of AI agents can be. We're not talking about a chat bot or we're not talking about an assistant or an iteration of Gemini and all this sort of stuff that will do it. It's the idea of having the next iteration of what these smartphones can do and making our lives easier. And there's so much talk about how we spend too much time on our phones and where everyone's looking down on their phones and using all this stuff. Because they become so incredibly complicated to use, this is a world where actually we can put our phones away more often.

39:59Every week I take my kids to the movies. Every week I've got to open up the Fandango app, pick the movie, go through a eight-step process of picking our seats, putting in my credit card number, doing all stuff like that. If the AI knows all my information, I could just say, hey, on Saturday, I want to take my kids to go see Cat in the Hat, pick our normal seats. It knows where we like to sit and everything. Just let it be done, and then the tickets get purchased, and then we go and do our thing. That's less time on my phone and more time spent with my family. That's what the future of these AI agents can be, and that could be the next generation of smartphones possibly could bring us.

40:34And that's why I've come around on this concept. All right. We've got 20 seconds left, Sarah, if you want to jump in. I'm with Ron on this one. I use currently an AI agent called Instinct. There are many, but it's the one that I use. Currently free for anybody who gets an invite, but they'll probably charge for it later. It's awesome. It's like if Tom sends me$20 on Venmo, then it'll just be like, ping, do you want to send this to your bank account? I say, yeah. And like Ron says, saves me several steps. It doesn't totally change my life, but it makes a lot of mundane things a lot easier. And I feel like in the sort of new normal that we have of AI, I don't think mobile is all that different from desktop.

41:22All right. That is time. No team. You also have two minutes. Wen Tue Dao, kick us off. Okay. So my thing is that, yes, these things are really great on the happy path, but in software there are very, very few. There are many, many sad paths. Something I always kind of think about is how agents are non-deterministic, which means that for any given situation, they can kind of do things a little bit differently. And the reason that kind of matters now is that even if things work like 8 out of 10 times, there is going to be that 2 out of 10 times that things don't work. And given the fact that if you think of the idea of either an agent being able to crawl an API, an app, or literally just being able to view the screen and click buttons for you, there is going to be some set of times where things don't work.

42:03And this level of indirection makes it really, really hard to test and support people. Like, imagine, like, if you have an agent doing all of your things and for some reason some app just doesn't play ball, who do you go to for support? Is it going to be the operating system that has to fix it? Is that reasonable for them if their job is to basically have agents work across every single possible app? I'd also say that a lot of these features depend a lot on these third parties, whether that's the airline or the vendor or whoever you're buying from participating. I think this week, United said that they will not support third-party agent access of their APIs or allow Muse because, in essence, they're kind of being removed from that liability and that direct support.

42:46And again, like for certain things like like big purchases, like airline tickets or things like bank transactions that are legally liable for a lot of these things or that are certain laws that kind of dictate how they can how they kind of interact and like handle certain things. So I just don't see a lot of companies even like that have like a stake and some legal responsibility to actually permit this to happen. So there's part of it is like I don't think it's a good idea. And part of it is like if companies aren't supporting it, it's just not going to work out in the long run. You're not going to get that kind of like automate my whole life that you might think.

43:19Roger, you got 24 seconds.

43:22Robb Dunewood: Two big concerns, privacy and security. Security, I think, can be mitigated, like giving something access to literally every important joint of your life. But privacy, at some point, there's going to be a wealth of data that's been mapped about you, right? Your behavior, what you buy, family members, friends who you know. There's a lot of information I'm uncomfortable giving to a human person. I'm not sure if I want to give it to an automated system that I may or may not understand the entire breadth of what it's collecting and how much it's storing in order to enable it to do all of those functions.

44:04Robb Dunewood: Yeah, it would probably be convenient for it to do a lot of those things, but I'm willing to put up with some inconvenience just to know that someone else doesn't know who I see on the weekend. All right. Well done. Real quick, follow-up before we get to the swing seats question. Roger, yes or no, would you feel differently if the agent was entirely on device? no because uh i mean it's if it's one thing to have say like you know if i could control everything on my car that i work on myself there's a there's an aspect to it that i i can control right i can pull out a water pump alternator whatever put anyone with with with software-based stuff i don't know like there it's not open in the same way like where i could just kind of start digging in, it's like, aha, now I know you're doing this.

44:58Robb Dunewood: I don't want you to do that. It was open source. It was sort of open to people to poke and prod. I would probably change my opinion. All right, Rob, Jason, you guys are in the swing seat. What do you think based on these arguments so far? I am in the swing seat, not because I am just hard no or hard yes either way. It's just it's not ready yet. Like I think about I'm old enough to remember when banking apps first not came to the phone when you first could go to a Web site and do banking. And I remember a large segment of Americans that I would never do that. Why would I log on to AOL or to CompuServe or to whatever service provider you had to do bank stuff?

45:47Robb Dunewood: I don't trust that. I'll just go to the bank and do it because that's what you trusted. So right now, if I'm being honest, there's no way that like Muse is fairly useless to me because I don't give it access to anything. You know, I just don't trust these systems enough to give them the access to be useful because I don't trust the systems. I think over time, however, that could change. So right now I'm a no, I don't want this because, you know, as you know, as Wint said, I think that there's just too many areas where they didn't where they don't work. If you fail 20 percent of the time, 40 percent of the time, that's that's a heck of a failure rate.

46:24Robb Dunewood: That is that is a problem in my mind. If I have to think about I want to use this, but there's a really good chance that it's not going to work when I could just go to open table or I could just call the restaurant and make the reservation. And it just happens. And I know that I've done it. So I am I don't think I'm getting out of the swing seek because I just it's not a hard no. It's just a hard no today, maybe in four years, maybe in six years when these things have been around, the APIs are all proven to work well, and you're more at like a 98 % success rate, then maybe. Today, I'm still, I don't think so.

46:59Yeah, my father-in-law still doesn't want to use his phone to pay for stuff because he's like, nah, I just trust the credit card more. And I'm like, the credit card has fewer protections than Apple Pay or Samsung Pay or Google Pay. That's a good point.

47:11Robb Dunewood: It is actually less safe to use your credit card than it is to use your phone that the credit card is looked up to. But people just don't feel like it is yet. Therefore, they still don't. Jason, what about you? For pretty much everything you said, Rob. But I think for me, it's a trust of it being able to actually carry out the task that it wants to. I think the mobile payments on a device is the perfect example because I know for me personally, when Tap2Pay was early, and Ron, you can attest to this from all about Android. It took me years to really buy into the idea because I just never trusted it.

47:44And the times that I left my credit card at home and just took my phone and it failed was enough to undo me from trying again for another couple of years. And I think I'm kind of there when it comes to agents on the mobile phone. It's good. The promise is great. And I'm all in once it actually does what it promises to do all the time, every time. But until we get there, I'm going to be dipping my toes in and pulling it back out the second it does it wrong. And, you know, I'm getting that less on the desktop. I'm getting more trust on the desktop. I'm seeing things happen more. On mobile, it's kind of a different story right now.

48:16I want it to improve. So that's why I'm in the swing seat. Yeah. I feel like, if I can summarize it, all of us are fine with the concept of a phone that can do things for you. It's that we don't trust that it will do it right. Maybe not right now, maybe ever. Is that fair to say? Like, we don't mind the idea of being able to just say, like, hey, book me movie tickets. It's all a question of what happens after that. Yeah, I would agree with that.

48:46Robb Dunewood: It's like, you know, in the same way that I'm fine with doing things on the browser, because if I need to, I know where to blow out the files, right, for anything that it might collect. it just it's at that stage where there's too too much of a question mark on what's under the hood for me to feel comfortable until someone can like a third party an adversarial like you know a pen testing company can say okay we went through this these are the things that they need to fix to make sure that you know privacy is respected security is is on point and on the rest until that happens i'm still going to be like maybe well and probably not and i think that's the and i think that's the thing because ultimately like what's funny is because here i am advocating for it and because i because i do see the potential for it but i you know jason rob roger win i actually do agree with a lot of all the points you guys are making but the counterpoint to all that is you know like when you know i agree you know you we've talked about this on andre faithful a ton software is hard Right.

49:50These are all posing hard development questions, but that shouldn't stop us from building better software. Right. Like like this is a major shift in paradigm and platform shift. And it introduces new complexities around support, security, responsibility, you know, like and we didn't abandon mobile apps because they introduce new problems. We just figured out how to build the guardrails around them and how to manage privacy and how to do all stuff like that. And so now the question is that we see the promise of this. How do we develop standardized APIs and how do we get the third-party stuff to give that confidence to make this an acceptable future for everybody and not just have it be – not just have AI pretending to be a human tapping buttons?

50:40You know, ultimately, you know, we're debating whether users should have AI agents, not whether every company is going to be happy about letting us use them. Right. Like that's that's what is is being discussed here. And like and Roger, to your point about the privacy side of things, it's you know, it's like the the I don't want to have Google have access to everything. I don't want every company have access to everything that I have. Tom, you brought up whether it was on device or not like that on device processing. privacy controls, limited permissions. These are all design problems and these are all development and how you implement it.

51:19It's not a reason to reject it outright. Oh, no. Do you think we'll get there at all? I think it has to. And my only concern about all this is that OpenAI and Anthropic and Google are moving at a velocity that is so fast that the concerns that everybody has, the speed to do it right is slower than the speed that the AI companies are moving to implement it. Yeah. I was curious if Wen thought we would get there too. I actually don't. I think we still have to recognize that there are still times in technology that we do have what are basically evolutionary dead ends, I suppose. And it's very subtle, right because i'm not saying that this as a whole is not going to work out but i do think that we have multiple examples in history whether that's on a large scale or fine grain where things just don't work out and not necessarily because we couldn't technology it but because the human aspect of it doesn't work out that we're still trying to figure things out the the only thing i can think of off the top of my head which is not not a great example is say like cryptocurrency and nfts right we a lot of people were very enthusiastic about it but at the same time The human side of the story didn't kind of like meet up with like what the technology could have brought.

52:32I know that's like a very like like very kind of murky like pool. But I'd also say that I don't think we should necessarily assume also that this is the future because of some of those limitations. I do think that I get all the points that we're making and that we can certainly technology this. So the thing I'm concerned is that what we're asking is for the agents to be a high percent perfect at being able to handle any kind of software system, any kind of software system, any kind of interface, any kind of API. And then again, when it comes to testing, like, yeah, for like the mobile payments example, right?

53:03So we have third party vendors that handle like payments. We have banks that handle their own systems and API integrations there. There are very discrete, finite connections between those things, right, where we can put a bunch of people on each of these connections and refine those, improve those. And, yeah, we can improve trust over time. My problem is the scale of this is the problem with AI is scale is that this is such a scale. You're asking these agents to basically more or less, I know I'm kind of exaggerating, be omnipotent. There is like very little way to test that. And again, the liability and support issue.

53:37I keep thinking of like, for example, autonomous vehicles, right? We still like, like just as a broad example, we still don't really have good ways of understanding if an accident happens with an autonomous vehicle, where's the liability? Is it the company? Is it like the people, like the specific person involved? Is it the software? Is it the coder that wrote that piece of software? You know, like there's all these different questions. And that's like a very specific example. Again, now we're taking, again, this idea that we're kind of like, again, this autonomous like action, spreading it out across like all different industries, multiple hundreds of thousands of different vendors and companies.

54:12And I just I feel like there's so many questions that that for this to work perfectly, we're kind of assuming that the technological side just needs to get there. I mean, it's always going to be like that human interaction and like the legal, like all those other sides. I just I feel like it's I don't know if we're going to get there to the point where where we trust it and where it is in the same way again, because it's kind of nebulous, because these things are probabilistic and there's so much that's out of our control and that is hard to test. So I'm just very pessimistic on on this idea. I just look something up here.

54:47Robb Dunewood: You know, tap to pay in the United States came out in 2004. Today in 2026, only 58 to 78 percent of U.S. merchants even accept it. And just since the middle of the pandemic, did we get over 50 percent of Americans using it at least once every 90 days? So depending on what report you look at, there's like, you know, roughly 60 percent of Americans use it every 30 days. This is something that has been out since 2004. I have a child that is all the way grown adult with a college degree that was born in 2004. That's how long it took us to get to where about three quarters of the companies at best actually even accept the technology.

55:26Robb Dunewood: That's just one type of technology. That's a terminal that the company has to get. And it's banks all agreeing on the standard that has been working since literally like the late 70s, depending on where on earth you are. So the fact that it's taken just that one type of technology that long to get to where it is, as Wynn is saying, is like now you've got software that has to be almost omnipotent. It has to talk to every other type of software in order for this thing to fly. I just don't see that happening today. Now, I think that we could potentially get there. I just don't see it any time in the foreseeable future to where I personally would be willing to trust it with my banking information or just trusting it to make the reservation at the place that doesn't use OpenTable.

56:06All right. We're going to move from there because I think we got a good coverage of all the different aspects of that. Thanks, everybody, for that good discussion. We're going to finish with a quick question. We're just going to go around the table, get everybody's quick answer. This week, Warby Parker and Gentle Monster introduced smart glasses made with Samsung hardware running Google's Android XR. And Google has put in several safeguards against the glasses being misused, including a recording light that comes on when the camera is active that can detect if that light has been covered or modified and then refuse to activate the camera.

56:39Camera has a physical off switch, so you can just disconnect it. Google says it will remotely disable the glasses if it determines you've recorded people without consent or recorded in sensitive areas. That's part of the terms of service so they can do it. Your photos and videos will not be stored by Gemini or used to train it, and the glasses cannot connect to the Play Store app for live streaming. So you cannot live stream from these glasses without jailbreaking them or doing a workaround. It also does not allow real-time facial recognition to be done. And there's more. So around the horn, the question is, does Android XR solve the glass hole problem?

57:15The problem of people thinking like, you've got cameras in your glasses. I don't trust you. Jason, how, where do you stand? Well, sorry, I had to put on my Google Glass. It was literally within arm's reach. Android XR is at its core, it's a platform, right? It's software choices. And I love what Google is doing here to kind of tackle the problem. It's a shape shifter. It can be paired with anything. AI glasses that don't have a camera have a camera, XR, VR, full-blown things, all that stuff. I think the glass hole problem is more about being a characterization of people who use the technology in a real-world sense that is imposing on other people.

57:58I don't think the platform solves that problem. I think the form factor is the problem. Oh, very good. Huen Tuey Dao, what do you think? Oh, man. Oh, Jason, kind of lean me over to the other side. I think maybe. I do think that there is an appetite for this. And I do think that Google very explicitly addressing very, very specific, very concrete issues and workarounds that people have tried to do to be glass bowls. I think it doesn't mean nothing, but I do think that there is a large negative sentiment to get over. So I don't know. Is it enough? I'm not sure. I'd like there's part of me that would like to think it is just because there is a lot of promise to technology.

58:37But I just I just don't know. It's it's it's tough. Sarah Lane. I've said this before. I don't think that glasses that record people is introducing a problem with human behavior. Human behavior has been what it is for a long time. You know, upskirt videos on the subway. Is getting a pair of glasses going to make you start doing that? No, no. And I think we can all agree those are bad. Let's not do things like that. And that's where people say, ooh, no consent. This is going to be bad. You know, I'm going to end up on the Internet and my identity will be stolen. That is just all possible already.

59:20The form factor, I don't think it introduces a problem that doesn't already exist.

59:25Robb Dunewood: Rob Dunwood. So the short answer is no, these things will not solve the problem. However, I do not believe they exacerbate the problem either. I think that we are currently in a state of people really, really don't like them. And Google coming out with stuff, people still really, really don't like them. I do believe, however, that when Apple comes out with them, a lot of folks are going to say, oh, OK, well, Apple did it right. They showed Earth how to do it. And because they really want them, they're going to get them. And like there was a problem with cell phones and locker rooms and bathrooms.

59:59Robb Dunewood: We don't really talk about that anymore. You just kind of know you don't pull your cell phone out when you're in the bathroom. That's kind of weird. People are going to be like, don't turn. Don't have the light on your glasses when you're in the bathroom. That's kind of weird. And I think that when Apple comes out with a pair of glasses, that's when you'll start to see the yeses, you know, you know, from this group to where we'll actually start getting better with, you know, how people feel about it. Roger Chang. No. Very good. No, they have not solved the problem. No, they haven't solved the problem because fundamentally the problem, as kind of Sarah alluded to, is social.

1:00:35Robb Dunewood: It's a trust issue. I think that until society either matures to the point where we become a high-trust society where, like, hey, I totally trust you're not being a creepy person leaving your classes. I think it will always be an issue. And of course, it's going to be contextual, right? It's one thing to be at a theme park and someone might have them. And you'd be like, yeah, I can totally be okay with that because everyone's enjoying the park. But if you're awake or perhaps at a wedding or something that's maybe a little more intimate, it might be a little more uncomfortable. And I think it does not solve the fundamental issue that people will try to get away with things that they can get away with.

1:01:19Ron Richards final word I'm gonna I'm gonna hedge a little I'm gonna say yes they solved the glass hole problem because nobody looks like Jason with the wire on his face and doesn't look like a weirdo but I don't think it's Google that solved the glass hole problem we're not walking around complaining about meta holes are we because well we don't call it that but yeah people are But honestly, in the last two weeks, I've seen more people in my world who are not us. And by us, I mean techie in the know people with meta Ray-Ban glasses, just wearing them out and about and doing their thing. And no one batting an eye or asking, are you recording?

1:02:06Are you doing anything? And there are people who I know don't wear glasses and they've got the smart glasses or whatever. Yeah, but you're in New York City, a hot bit of sin and iniquity. suburbs you know but these are you know but these are not long island a hotbed of sin and iniquity exactly so i think i think i think i think the world has shifted from the google glass point i think the the term glass hole is a little in the past and i think that the the google the android xr is the next iteration of that so i do think that i don't know if google has solved it But I think the moment in time has passed.

1:02:41So it's somewhat solved. Yeah, I think we I think to finish this off, I agree with Sarah said, though, but people are. Yeah, I think you're all pretty much very close to where I am, which is this may not have solved solved. It kind of defends on your definition of solved, but it certainly doesn't hurt, like Rob said. And I think it advances it a little more. And to your point, Ron, it probably is less backlash in real life than you see online. And this will advance that a little more. And I think Rob probably nailed it, which is as soon as Apple comes out with these, it will normalize it. And we'll get to that point where, yes, bad behavior will still be punished.

1:03:20But people will get used to this being a thing that happens and how to mostly responsibly use them. I will add one neat little thing because I got to go to Google and try out the new glasses as part of the stuff they announced last week. And when I was wearing the glasses, the demo, and they were explaining how there's the little light that shows that you're recording, I just – as the guy at Google was explaining to me, I immediately covered the light, right? And he laughed and he said, great, yeah, when you do that, we detect you do that and stop recording. and on top of that we randomize the amount of time that you cover the light every time you do it so it's not like you can figure it out so so they're they're proactively mixing it up so that people can't be like oh you'll you have 30 seconds before it stops recording whatever he's like we it changes every time so that so that people can't game it which i was like oh that's cool so yeah they put a lot of thought in trying to address yeah they are trying uh well thank you all for helping us get a better understanding of these questions.

1:04:24We have decided the next CEO of NVIDIA will be a co-CEO. We maybe don't want agents running our smartphone yet, but some of us do. And yeah, Android has made a lot of progress towards solving the glass hole problem. Big thanks to everyone for being on the panel. Wen Tui Dao, Roger Chang, Rob Dunwood, Jason Howell. I love how we're clapping first. Sarah Lane, we're all the best. We're so good. And also thanks to Ron Richards for being with us. Ron, we know you're a busy guy, so thanks for being on the show. Where can people find you? Yeah, just follow me over on social media, at RonXO. I'm most active on Instagram and threads.

1:05:11And, of course, every Tuesday, check us out over at Android Faithful, where we're talking all about. We're talking about AI agents and glasses and phones and all that fun stuff. We've got a new YouTube channel over at YouTube.com slash at Android Faithful Podcast. Doing all that fun stuff. Yeah. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Ron. And thank you, Len Peralta, who has been busily illustrating today's big stories and big questions. Len, I know you've been taking on the challenge of working all the questions in. What do you got for us? Yes. So that's what I've been doing since we've switched to the big question format.

1:05:48I've been trying to do that challenge myself. The big question, the big story of the week is NVIDIA. And so I was able to kind of work everything into this. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. You've got to check this out. That's why you asked me if I thought he was attractive. Well, it's a little bit of editorializing as well on this. If you are a non-fan of Jensen Wang, you can actually get this at my Patreon, patreon.com forward slash Len. You can get it immediately at the DT-ness lover level. Do you like that, Tom? I thought that was the minute you sent over to yourself. I'm like, I know what I'm doing. Also, you can also get this at my online store, lenperaltostore.com, which, by the way, if you want me to draw your holiday card this year, get it in.

1:06:42I'm getting orders. I can be a part of your holiday, and you can support a human artist. So please reach out to me and all that good stuff. Thanks. Fantastic. Thank you, Len. Big thanks to everybody who supports us in all the various ways of doing it. Don't forget to use your hype points on YouTube at youtube.com slash daily tech news show. big thanks to all the folks still supporting us over there on twitch like norm fazikas back for the 75th month said way to go me the number 75 reminds me of my grades in school i'm sorry w scottis one back for the fourth month at tier one they've been subscribed for 80 months over there on twit uh twitch g james b reached a 220 stream streak and then earlier this week larry in Atlanta, Rich SPK, Morbius 65, all resubscribed.

1:07:34Thanks, everybody, for resubscribing. Thanks, everybody, for supporting us at patreon.com slash DTNS. And a big thank you for keeping us in business, no matter how you support us. You can support us directly. Get that ad-free feed and an additional post show to go along with today's live stream at patreon.com slash DTNS. tomorrow's saturday special is modular music tech you can diy your own music gear keep an eye out for that jason hell and rich stroffolino talking about that we'll be back on monday have a great weekend everybody this week's episodes of daily tech news show were created by the following people host rob dunwood host jason howell host sarah lane host tom merritt host wen tweedow producer roger chang producer anthony lemos video producer joe kuntz editor hammond chamberlain contributing producers kevin tech noelle cow and brandon richards social media producer and moderator zoe detterdick our mods beatmaster w scottis one bio cow captain kipper steve guadorama paul reese matthew j stevens and jd galloway modern video hosting by dan christensen Music provided by Martin Bell and Dan Luters.

1:08:54Art by Len Peralta. Acast ad support from Todd Tuchek. Patreon support from Bobby Wagner. And our guests this week, Patrick Norton, Eileen Rivera, Ron Richards, and Rich Straffolino. And thanks to all the patrons who make the show possible.

1:09:09Robb Dunewood: This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

1:09:23This episode is brought to you by Okta, helping you secure and govern AI identity by bringing agents out of the shadows. AI agents are changing how work gets done. They're fast, they're capable, and more of them are showing up inside companies right now. That's exciting. But when agents operate unseen in the dark, they create massive security blind spots. Okta shines a light on all of your agents so you can stay secure. Whether your teams are building agents or bringing them in, Okta gives you a clear way to answer four simple questions. Where are my agents? What can they do? What are they doing?

1:09:57And how do I respond if they go rogue? With that visibility, you can govern each agent's identity, trace their behavior, and even hit an instant kill switch. Bring AI agents out of the shadows. Okta secures AI. Learn more at Okta.com. That's O-K-T-A dot com. The quarter pounder with cheese is made with 100 % fresh beef. Cook when you order it. Add hot crispy fries and an ice cold Coke. And hopefully a lot of napkins. All for$8.