Apple (Mostly) Loses in Its Epic Games Appeal - DTNS 5164

0:01This is the Daily Tech News for Friday, December 12, 2025. We tell you what you need to know, give you the important context, and help each other understand. Today, Scott Johnson tells us why the Game Awards is an early sign of a gaming slowdown. And we get yet another ruling in the forever Epic vs. Apple case. Yet another ruling. I'm Jason Howell. I'm Jen Cutter. Let's start with what you need to know with the big story. Apple. Okay, so yes, we're going to talk about Apple and Epic Games again. I feel like this is the story that never goes away, but it's just the way it works sometimes in tech news.

0:36Apple mostly lost its contempt appeal in the forever. I like how you put it forever. Epic Games case. It really is how it feels right now. Ninth Circuit affirmed that Apple willfully violated the 2021 anti-steering injunction by using a 27 percent external link commission. And then also challenging Apple's use of implementing design choices and UX choices that made external payments, quote, as hard to use as possible. You know, scare prompt tactics, that sort of stuff. The opinion notes that Apple's 27 % structure, some are referring to this as junk fees, effectively erased any benefit of steering users to outside payments.

1:22And it agrees there was clear and convincing evidence of civil contempt. So the core injunction that Apple must allow links and steering to external payment methods remains in force. Apple did not lose across the board. And it's important to point this out. They didn't lose entirely. I think a lot of people and sites writing about this, you know, were proclaiming this massive, you know, another victory for Epic. Again, it is a big victory for Epic, but Apple gets something here, too. The panel has held that the prior order went too far by permanently banning any commission whatsoever on external link purchases and said that this is more like a punitive criminal sanction than a civil contempt remedy.

2:10So instead, the appeals court says Apple should be able to charge a reasonable fee that covers necessary coordination costs for external links, plus some sort of compensation for use of its IP. That question now being sent back to Judge Gonzalez Rogers to set the structure of that fee. Apple can't start charging until the district court approves a fee at this stage. Either side could possibly seek further appeals. I think they're allowed or able to do that, but currently there's no indication of a new appeal being set in motion. We're talking about it again, Jen. How do you feel? You know when you read a word too many times and it stops looking like a word?

2:54Totally. Happens to me all the time. I don't know what that is. It's probably got a name, but yes, I know. Yeah, so for this case, definitely you have to do a lot of careful reading to see where they are from where they came from because it's been a long road. I think globally, actually, in terms of a lot of cases, especially some going on in the EU, reasonable fees, reasonable mitigations. What does the word reasonable mean? And we're still kind of working on it. Yeah, it's a pretty fuzzy word. I mean, anytime you have reasonable in there, it's like, OK, so there is no indication. I mean, obviously, they're going back.

3:31They're going to figure that out. It's not like it's going, at least my understanding is, it's not going to be this loosely defined thing forever. They're just saying, you know, there is cause, there is reason for Apple to charge a certain fee. If, you know, there is a fee associated through the cost of doing business around some of these changes, Apple should be able to, at least how they've decided, be able to recoup some of that cost. But throwing in that loosey-goosey reasonable always puts a big question mark in the air. And it's kind of like, okay, well, then how reasonable are we talking about?

4:06And also, how much leverage does Apple have in whatever that number becomes? I'm curious about that. Well, we know for sure that number is less than 27%. I don't know. I think maybe it is. Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right. Yeah, the winners here are the lawyers because now it's like, hey, we get to appeal again. All right. Possibly. Again and again. Well, yeah, it's going to be that back and forth because they can come back with a number that's like 25 percent. And the judge will say, stop that and try again. Yeah, yeah. There's also an indication here that dark patterns in apps, you know, user experience, that sort of stuff not being OK.

4:45And I'll be curious to see if and how this has implications outside of this case, because, you know, we've been on mobile long enough to know, you know, it can be a bit of wild, wild west with a lot of different things. in the mobile industry and how developers, you know, put things into apps and, you know, this whole idea of like dark patterns encouraging or motivating people through the use of things like scare screens and whatever. Like, could something like this have an impact on how other companies, you know, integrate those kind of tactics into their apps? I don't know. Other judges are kind of on to that because with the Office 365 price raise in Australia, Yeah, Microsoft got fined because they did not make it clear enough that you did not have to take the AI price increase.

5:35You could do it the other way without having to cancel. There was another screen that was just very difficult to get to. And Australian judges were like, no, knock that off. Here's your fine. Look, it was there. It was just 0.2 font size, but it was there. In gray on the white background. I don't know. What's the problem? him. That's like the equivalent of the radio ad where suddenly they're just like rambling through the important details. That's exactly what that is. I think in general, what this, you know, as a whole kind of zooming out Epic Games continues to look like the, the smaller, smaller, I say, it's not small, but the, the David compared to the Goliath, when you're talking about the size of an apple, right.

6:19Or apple, not an apple, an apple is very small, but you get what I'm saying they look to challenge the Goliath. They largely won. It seems they forced a major change in an industry mechanic and industry dynamic that has been well-worn path up until this point. And I guess that's probably why we continue to talk about this because it's been a pretty, I mean, epic is the right word for it. It's been a pretty epic case through and through, And it's made some pretty big changes entirely. DTNS is made possible by you, the listener. Thanks to Norm Fazekas, Chris Allen, Reid Fishler, and we have a raise from Patrick.

7:05Thank you, Patrick and everyone. Appreciate that. All right, there's more we need to know today. Let's get to the briefs. OpenAI released GPT 5.2. Its latest model aims squarely at professional and agentic use cases. OpenAI is pitching it as the best everyday work model with gains in spreadsheet work, presentations, coding, image understanding, long context reasoning tool use, and more complex multi-step processes. So like everything. OpenAI says the new model is far more resilient in avoiding hallucinations and more reliable for high-stakes professional workflows. Notion, Box, Shopify, and others have had access for weeks before launch, testing the agentic tools with their projects according to the company.

7:57OpenAI announced its plan to introduce an adult mode to ChatGPT in early 2026 for verified adult users looking for a less restricted chat experience along with customizable personalities, which is the best euphemisms you can get to without openly saying. Totally. It's like, oh my goodness, I just don't know how I feel about that. That's going to be an interesting kind of thing when that happens, I suppose. Yeah, I think what's interesting to me here is like chat GPT 5.1 only just came out, right? Like it was just a month ago. And then we hear about the code red thing. Altman saying, it's code red.

8:43We got to shut down these other efforts because the other big players in the room are beating us at our game. And I think largely that has to do with Gemini 3 and Google's very big moment with Gemini 3. There was a lot of attention around that. And here we are a month later and 5.1 gets this big update. And so far. It sounds like it's good. I haven't really played around with it personally, but I wonder if the rapid turnaround is a result of the code red or if it was going to happen this way anyways. I don't know. I'm of two minds here. One is like, yes, they're making improvements and going pretty fast.

9:23And then the second is trying to take more oxygen out of the room and to show my age here. It's Malibu Stacy, but she's got a new hat. See, see, you're making the right choice. See, Yeah, no, that's a good point. I mean, man, things are just moving so fast in this space. And most of the time when it's a new model, I don't necessarily think it's always like big, big news when a new model comes out because it follows the same kind of arc, heroes arc every single time. Oh, such and such company has a new model and it's better at all these things. Well, I certainly hope so. It's the new model. It had better be better at those things, you know, and they're constantly kind of like leapfrogging each other as far as that's concerned, too.

10:13So we just had Gemini 3. Now we've got 5.2. And then, you know, is everybody just trying to like fit it in before they get to their holiday break? Maybe that's what's going on here, too. Well, there you go. Yeah. The president of the U.S. signed an executive order on Thursday directing his administration to assess whether state regulations regarding AI are onerous. The secretary of commerce has 90 days to develop a framework definition of what is onerous or not. And in the most extreme cases, withhold money from the broadband equity access and deployment, also known as BED, B-E-A-D, program. That subsidizes the rollout of high-speed broadband.

10:56Now, the FTC and FCC also have 90 days to look at ways state laws might violate their agency's policies. The attorney general has 30 days to develop an AI litigation task force to challenge state laws in court. U.S. Congress failed twice to pass a law requiring the same thing. And an executive order may not survive what we imagine are going to be some serious legal challenges along these lines. So, you know, basically saying like, sorry, states, you you can't implement laws to curb, you know, AI, the proliferation of dangerous AI, you know, potentially dangerous AI. and in your states, it's just an interesting time.

11:44It's an interesting move. And living in the state of California where there are definitely already state-level efforts on kind of curbing and slowing things down around AI and everything, this kind of seems like a response to that to be like, nope, we're just gonna let it run free. Why? I don't know why, but there you go. I cover a lot of legal things and obviously a lot of tech legal things often come out of the EU and the United States. But I am very fuzzy on what pressure the federal government can exert on state government because it had been my understanding that certain parties were bigger on states' rights than others.

12:30So yeah, this is going to be a fight and we'll be talking more about this as it develops. Personally, I think you're putting your finger on something that definitely jumped out to me. It's like, well, wait a minute. What happened to states' rights here in this conversation? Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how this all pans out. I'll be learning a lot. So outside of the Commonwealth. Won't we all? This is just the time we live in right now. We're all learning. Well, speaking of the Commonwealth, Australia's new under-16 social media ban has triggered a high court fight with Reddit. The company sued Australia's highest court, arguing that the law tramples on young people's constitutional right to participate in political discussion, and they say the law wrongly treats its site as a mainstream social network.

13:20Their argument is that the Reddit platform is pseudonymous, forum-based, and not driven by personal profiles and social graphs the way social platforms like X and Instagram are, which is true. You get a lot more random names. Like you can kind of think of it more as like, think of like your old Xbox 360 gamertag or like the first email you had. You probably didn't use your name. Yeah. Well, so, okay. So I'm a Reddit user. You're a Reddit user. We were talking in pre-show about this. When you think of Reddit, do you think of it as a social network? I do think of it more as a forum, but that is, again, because of my age.

14:01I am, because of like the forum structure, it's not really live unless you're like trying to live scroll and ask me anything thread, which is difficult. So I wouldn't recommend trying to stay on that live. But I see it as a forum. it's really handy to search for how-tos, to search for insider information for different professions. Like if you ever looked at the teacher or the nurse's subreddit, you get lots of interesting takes from people on the inside who are most definitely not using their real names. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and does the anonymous or pseudonymous, as I put in there, which is a word that just sounds weird.

14:38Like when I read it, it feels normal. But when I say it out loud, It feels weird. Does the pseudonymous nature of Reddit compared to the verified real representation of people on platforms or so we say on X and threads and these other places. Is that the differentiator here? Like I'm like I totally agree when I think of Reddit, my use of it, it does feel more forum like than it feels social network. But I still kind of put it into the same category. It's just a social network that operates differently in my mind. Like it's still very social. Many of the things that people like all the things that people are talking about on other social networks they're talking about on Reddit.

15:21it. So I, and so I'm trying to like figure out like, well, then what exactly is that? Is it the algorithmic kind of driving and mechanics of the platform? If it's the anonymous thing, why is that the differentiator? I don't know. It's. Well, would you consider Slashdot a social network or would you consider it more of a news site? Cause I tend to use Reddit and a lot of people tend to use it as like, Oh, what's the news? What's the latest buzz, which is a thing that happens on social media. But with a lot of social media downranking news, does that make Reddit more of a news site? Now, especially in Australia and now Canada, if you're a news site, you have different rules that are also kind of a pain.

16:05So this may be a split victory for Reddit if they win and get classified as something else. Yeah. Very interesting. A lot of questions. Finally, we have a few quick headlines that are just good to know if you want to understand the news coming in the future. Disney CEO Bob Iger commented to CNBC on the major deal with OpenAI we discussed yesterday, saying that the deal, quote, does not in any way pose a threat to creatives since it does not include name and likeness in the deal. Yeah, he also went on to just kind of basically acknowledge, like, these things are going to happen. These tools are being developed.

16:42We either get on board. I mean, it's what we've talked about on the show before. You either get on board and be with it or we go against it and then we lose because we, you know, because it happens anyways. But yeah, I mean, it's a couple of things. I guess I should check out the full interview on CNBC. See what else he said. YouTube now lets US creators take their earnings in PayPal's PYUSD stable coin. That's crypto payouts coming to YouTube, essentially. That is such a huge change. I never saw this one coming. Having gotten YouTube payments in the past, it was very strict about how you get it because you have tax forms.

17:22Reddit, because we got to talk about Reddit some more, is rolling out an opt-in gray checkmark for confirming the identity of a curated set of public figures and brands. Reddit says the new feature is not about status as much as it is about clarity. Yeah. Authenticity is that person who they say they are. Yeah. HBO Max is adding always on themed channels to stream major franchises. So think Friends, Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, all happening in a continuous stream. And yes, you can rewind, you can fast forward, you can skip if you want to. I know 25 years ago, if there was a channel that just, actually probably at this point, more close to 30 years ago, if there was a channel that only played Simpsons reruns, I would have been all in.

18:12I would have been on that channel all the time. This is great because it also reduces issues with any kind of executive function. It's like when you just want to watch something and you have an idea, you just put it on and whatever's on, you're probably going to be happy with. I'd like to sit on the couch and drool a little bit. Can you just play something for me to slack jaw drool? This is aiming at second screen people so hard. Yeah. Google Translate now pipes Gemini-powered real-time in-ear translations to any headphones in a beta experience rolling out today. No Pixel Buds are required. I always kind of wondered why the Pixel Buds were the mandatory special hardware for this thing.

18:53Turns out it was probably all planned that way. WhatsApp is turning missed calls through the service into instant voice or video message opportunities for the user. So basically, if you call someone, they're not there, you'll be immediately prompted to either record a message in video or voice, depending on how you initially reached out without having to go and find that functionality that already existed. So, you know, voicemail, it's a thing again. I'll take A. A lot of people are trying to go more analog. This is like bridging the gap. Yeah, sort of. Yeah. Google's new Gemini-powered Disco app that works with existing browser tabs to turn them into live gen tabs, which are miniature web apps that can help users complete tasks that they are working on inside the browser.

19:44And users can build their own apps with written prompts inside Disco. Disco. It's a separate app, integrates with browsers that you're already using. Yeah, I'm not entirely sure I understand, but I would like to see it in practice. Those are the essentials for today. Let's dive a little deeper. Yeah, do you hear that swelling orchestra in the background? The Game Awards happened Thursday, and Tom caught up with Scott Johnson to go over some of the highlights. Hello, Scott Johnson. Thank you for being here. Hello, Tom Merritt. I am very happy to be here after what was a bit of a marathon last night.

20:23Yeah, you co-streamed the whole thing, didn't you? I did. The Game Awards were long. They were three and a half hours, pushing four hours. Plus, we did stuff at the top and the bottom. So all said, I think I was close to five hours on stream and then another couple in post. So it was a big night. Anybody who doubts the Game Awards are not a real awards show, I submit that as evidence that they are. Yeah, there is a tendency around gaming and gamers in particular where they kind of discount this thing. They think it's a lot of fluff. But the truth of it is, so are all award shows, really. And it's kind of our only thing.

20:58So, you know, we like it. We enjoyed ourselves. So give us the top line. Who are the big winners? And I don't know if there's any losers, but, you know, like if people are like, I didn't get a chance to catch it, catch us up on the highlights. Well, the big Claire winner yesterday was, you could call it Claire Obscure, but no, it's Claire Obscure Expedition 33, a game that came from a very small startup studio that had never published a game before. And they kind of swept. There was only one award they were nominated for they didn't get, which was Best Sound Design. That went to Battlefield 6, which deserved it, had excellent sound design.

21:33But everything else from Game of the Year all through their little subcategories, Indie of the Year, all that sort of stuff, they won. and it ended up being the most dominant of ever. This is the record number of awards. They won nine out of their 10. Nobody's done that many before. So this was as close to a sweep, I think, as they were expecting. And set a record for most berets on stage. Yeah, they claimed, the founder of the studio claimed the whole thing was done as a bit of a joke. They didn't think it would be so obvious and they would stick out so much from the rest of the crowd. But regardless of intent, that is kind of what happened.

22:11They looked like a bunch of mimes at some sort of mime convention. And they were delightful. They are a humble group of young developers, a team who kind of came out of nowhere and blew everybody's minds this year with this game. This was not an expected thing. And so I couldn't be happier for them. And they were very sweet in their acceptance speeches. And their music was amazing. They did a big main musical number. It was a big night for Claire Obscura. Expedition 33 for sure. Yeah, no, it was unexpected, I think, for a lot of people. The Game Awards are somewhere between the Oscars and the Golden Globes when it comes to video games.

22:51But I also can compare them to the Grammys in that people show up as much for the performances at the Grammys as they do for the awards. And kind of the same thing for the Game Awards. People show up for the trailers. What were the substantial reveals? Well, that's a really good point. So there was a lot of, uh, prior to this, there was a lot of speculation about some, some sneaky drops that Jeff Keighley had done on his, on his X account, people trying to suss out maybe what it was for. And a bunch of people had estimated a Diablo expansion, some other people. So this is an Elder Scrolls reveal.

23:23It turns out it was none of those things. It was for Larian's new game, the folks behind Baldur's Gate three. And it is a direct sequel to their, uh, to their previous series, the Divinity series, or Divinity 1 and 2. This is now going to be Divinity 3. And they showed a massive trailer for that. That was a big surprise. Nobody knew we were going to see that much of that or have it be as big a deal as it was. But there were new reveals of a new Star Wars game, specifically Fate of the Old Republic. It's a new RPG, an action RPG. There are a lot of fans of the Old Republic games back when those were a thing.

23:57And so this has got a lot of interesting stuff around. It's also a racing game in the Star Wars universe. But then there was a lot of stuff that just kind of felt fine. We knew about Resident Evil 9. It wasn't announced, but there was more shown because we'd already seen previous announcements. The new Tomb Raider game, there's actually two of those, essentially a retelling of the first old-school PS1 game done in modern ways. And then a follow-up a year later in 2027 that will be its own adventure. So that's all coming back. And there's a brand-new Mega Man game coming. But for the most part, that was the side of the show that felt a little less than previous years.

24:35Previous years had a lot more big reveals and games that turned out to be massive hits later. This one may have a few gems in there, but it was kind of hard to tell. Yeah. Reading the tea leaves, what's your best guess of why that was? I don't know. I think there is a lot of talk about how during the pandemic, a lot of development ramped up. and a lot of the best games we're seeing now we're having some really record-setting games in the last couple of years, 2024 in particular, 2025, even 2023 really. And those were all the results of some of that lockdown development. And that was also an era that was flush with cash.

25:14So people were really pushing to get their stuff out. There's some people who believe, and I think there may be something to this, that we're seeing a little bit of a slowdown in that. And because game development takes so long, you're not going to see the results of that slowdown until later so maybe the the lack of big center stage reveals this year kind of tells us what the next couple years might be maybe a little thin yeah uh i also saw a lot of people talking about how the the final trailer there's usually like a big reveal at the end was not what they expected yeah they they everybody thought half life was going to get announced we think that every year so i don't know why we keep doing this also i don't i don't think valve needs this platform to do that anyway um but the final game was this offshoot shooter from the titanfall team or ex titanfall uh developers they left respawn started this new game it's a free-to-play shooter game that plays a little like a moba and a shooter combined and you might say well all right so like another overwatch style team-based whatever and the answer is yeah that is kind of what it is and it'll probably be amazing they made apex legends they know how to make these kind of games but that was like oh all right well a free to play game at the end of the show it wasn't the reveal everybody wanted people wanted you could actually play it in january like no you never have the end of show reveal be something you can get anytime soon that was yeah if it was me i would have way i would have put the larian thing at the end of the show that would have been the bigger reveal but at the end of the day it's not for everybody there's i guarantee there's some people some competitive players who are very excited about whatever that game's going to be but as a kind of one more thing sort of moment it didn't didn't really land the game awards have taken some criticism for uh not doing the future category uh and it seemed like some people were thinking and i'm curious if you agree that maybe they focused a lot more on indie games this year in the game awards as a way to say well we're we're not doing a special category we're doing it throughout the entire show feels like there were two things happening.

27:15One, that's true to an extent. I think they did want to lift up the indie space. They said things in that regard, Jeff Keighley did. So I think there's some of that, but I also think that it's now impossible to ignore the impact indies are actually having. Technically, Expedition 33, a massive hit critically and financially, is technically an indie game. In fact, won that award in that category. And most of the ones that made up that category were many million seller copies of what are independent games, non-triple-A, non-giant studio games. And I think that's a sign of where we're at with games.

27:53The indie space is no longer this weird little subcategory made by two guys in a garage. It's now so competitive that the most memorable games of 2025 were not triple-A titles from massive studios. There were games like that, but, you know, Sony and Microsoft and others didn't win a lot of awards last night. Nintendo won one or two. Yeah. But for the most part, the big boys didn't really win. Who won were these smaller mid-tier and lower-tier games. And I think that's actually really good for the business. Well, Scott, you're really good for this show. Thank you for bringing your analysis of this.

28:29This is fantastic. I followed what was going on, but I definitely increased my understanding of it by talking to you, as always. If folks want more of your kind of coverage of things, where should they go? Well, the best place to go right now for this exact kind of stuff is frogpants.com, specifically frogpants.com slash core. That's the show where we covered it last night and did it live. And we have all this in audio and video archive format. The entire live thing, we saved all that. So if you want to hear us ramble on about the various bits of this thing and whether we think there are two commercials or too many commercials in this event, and there are, hear all about it.

29:03We're at frogpants.com slash core. Fantastic. Thanks, Scott. You're welcome. That is a lot of time to cover an event. It's not short. It grows every year. And then there's always the pushback of like, how dare you cover these other awards in like a pre-show or just like announce them as a throwaway before a trailer. But I have an opening now to throw out my Half-Life 3 hot take, which is if Valve ever does learn to count to three, they're just going to drop it. It's just going to show up. I don't think they're going to do any pre-press on it. No bluster. I mean, at this point, that would have big impact.

29:43Can you imagine if they dropped them with the new Steam console coming out? Because that would just be unreal. Mic drop. Biggest mic drop ever. Do you still need a holiday gift? Because we have mugs, pint glasses, posters, shirts, hurries, and more with the DTNS logo, Len Peralta holiday art, and more. And I am still going to call it snazzy. Head to dailytechnewshow.com slash store.

30:13We end every episode of DTNS with some shared perspectives. Today, Paul has a standard that the Pebble Ring will need to meet. Paul writes, I was fascinated to hear the news about the Pebble Index 01 smart ring. Interesting naming. Does the double digit 01 imply there will be double digit number of models in the future, like index 10, index 11, et cetera? I'm strongly considering getting the pebble ring, but only if it turns out to be superior to my current setup. I use the Whisper Memos app on my Apple Watch, which works very well for capturing quick thoughts. All I have to do is open the app, tap the start button, then dictate my thought.

30:57The app automatically emails it to me. Once the pebble ring is out in the wild and gains some public feedback, I'll be sure to take a closer look to see if it can meet my needs. Thanks for the great show, Paul. And thanks for your great email, Paul. Thank you. So do you do any like voice dictation to like capture audio notes and that sort of stuff? I use my Apple Watch mostly for sleep and hockey tracking. I'm testing out a new app right now that actually claims to be able to track your shifts and stuff. So I'm excited to keep doing that. But I don't use it for notes. I have a lot of stuff disabled.

31:33I don't even use Siri on my phone. Like I just don't use voice stuff. Now this is part of like in the past, it had a lot of trouble understanding my accent because apparently I have a heavily Canadian accent. Like the same way back in like the Nintendo DS days, it didn't like my left-handed writing. So I should turn it on again because it has been much improved and none of my friends have issues anymore. Yeah. Yeah, I'm so, you know, when Paul says, you know, all I have to do is open the app, tap the start button and then dictate my thought. And I'm like, yes, I've done that a lot, too. I think the appeal of something like the Pebble Ring is even sometimes just pulling out the phone, opening the app, tapping the start button.

32:14That's three things. I know it doesn't sound like a lot, but in the rhythm of life, you know, and you know, there's a lot of times where like even that is just too much for me right now. Or if I'm driving, I'm not going to pick up my phone and do that. That's where something like this really seems cool for me, for my use case. You know, I just tap the button that's on my finger already and it does the thing and I move on, you know? That's the thing. Your greatest ideas come in a place where you can't do that, like driving in showers. Totally. I know. Exactly. Now, can you shower with the index?

32:44I don't know. Find out the hard way. Yeah. Yeah. What are you thinking about? Do you have some insight into a story? please, please, please share it with us over at feedback at dailytechnewsshow.com. Big thanks to Scott Johnson and Paul for contributing to today's show. Thank you for being along for Daily Tech News Show. You can keep us in business by becoming a patron at patreon.com slash DTNS.

33:13This week's episodes of Daily Tech News Show were created by the following people. host, producer, writer, Tom Merritt, host, writer, Jason Howell, co-host, Sarah Lane, co-host, Rob Dunwood, co-host, Jen Cutter, producer, Anthony Lemos, producer, Roger Chang, editor, Hammond Chamberlain, editor, Victor Bognat, contributing producers, Kevin Tech, Noel Cow, and Brandon Richards, science correspondent, Dr. Nicky Ackermans, social media producer and moderator, Zoe Detterding, our mods, Beatmaster, W. Scottis1, BioCow, Captain Kipper, Steve Guadarama, Paul Reese, Matthew J. Stevens, a.k.a. Gadget Virtuoso, J.D.

33:54Galloway, mod and video hosting by Dan Christensen, music provided by Martin Bell and Dan Luters, art by Len Peralta, Acast ad support by Tatiana Matias, Patreon support from Bobby Wagner, and our amazing guests this week, Andy Beach, Scott Johnson, and Justin Robert Young. And don't forget, thanks to all our patrons. to make the show possible.

34:26The DTNS family of podcasts, helping each other understand. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.