Do You Want to Try On Clothes Virtually - DTNSB 5049

0:00Jenn Cutter: With the Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One, you earn unlimited 2 % cash back on every purchase. And you get big purchasing power, so your business can spend more and earn more. Stephen, Brandon, and Bruno, the business owners of SandCloud, reinvested their 2 % cash back to help build the company's retail presence. Capital One, what's in your wallet? Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash Spark Cash Plus. Terms apply. Meet Amazon Ads rising star Daryl Spencer, who set out to redefine men's self-care with his brand Crown Skin. Amazon Ads helped him grow. I walked away from big tech to build a luxury brand in a category that no one was paying attention to.

0:39Jenn Cutter: With the help of Amazon Ads, I'm reaching relevant audiences and competing with the biggest names in men's grooming. We've scaled to over$500 ,000 in monthly revenue. Watch Crown Skin's story at advertising.amazon.com slash rising-stars. If you felt stuck trying to lose weight, you're not alone. Enter Weight Loss by HERS. It's designed to support you in reaching your goals. And HERS now offers access to an affordable range of FDA-approved GLP-1 medications, including the Wegovi pill and the Wegovi pen. Even better, with a range of affordable GLP-1 options, HERS makes it simple to find an approach that fits your needs and your budget.

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2:30Jenn Cutter: This is the Daily Tech News for Friday, June 27th, 2025. We tell you what you need to know, follow up on context, try to help each other understand. Today, do you want to use Google app to virtually try on clothes? Maybe. I'm Tom Merritt. I'm Jen Cutter. Let's start with what we need to know with the big story. Google launched a new app called Doppel. And of course, in the fine tradition of naming apps and websites, it doesn't have a vowel between the P and the L. It's just D-O-P-P-L. Doppel. It can show how clothing will look on you virtually. So the first thing you do is you upload a full body photo of yourself.

3:10Jenn Cutter: To be honest, that's the thing that tripped me up from trying it out is I'm here in a hotel room alone. So finding a way to make a full body photo of myself proved more difficult than I was willing to put the time in to try it yet. But should you be able to do that, you can then provide photos of clothing you'd like to see on you. And those can be things that you took a picture of, you know, on someone on the street or a friend or a screenshot from something you see online. You're watching a TV show and you're like, oh, I really like that outfit. Doppel then creates a virtual version of you wearing that outfit and if you want it can make a short video where you you know do a little twirl so you can see how it drapes and moves and all of that you can then save those for later you can share them with others at this point there's not a connection to Google Shopping which you might have thought there was but you can virtually try on outfits in Google Shopping right now as well this Doppel is built on the same technology that's used there.

4:08Jenn Cutter: I think it just has a few more bells and whistles. You can get Doppel if you're in the United States and use Android or iOS. This isn't the first of these kinds of things. There's been lots of attempts, usually by Amazon. In fact, Amazon still lets you do virtual try-ons. You can use augmented reality to try on shoes and glasses and lipstick. There are plenty of others. There's a project called Colors with a K you can find on Hugging Face. Companies like Juana and Auglio let you use augmented reality to try on accessories and cosmetics there are plenty more but usually it is uh in my camera show this on me in an augmented reality way versus what google's doing which is more of a virtualization uh using multimodal models amazon even patented a mirror for this kind of thing and you may remember for a short period of time they sold something called the echo look that would analyze your outfit and give you advice uh on whether stuff worked together or not uh jed is this one of those things that makes a great demo but nobody wants because it seems like we've been trying to make this work for a long time i remember covering the echo look when that was uh announced um i have a different hang-up than you when it comes to using these services um i i remember using them like in the very early days for like uh makeup and stuff because i have no idea what my colors are I'm not I'm not a makeup person I was spoiled on television when other people did that for me but uploading my picture and again this is the early days I know things are better now with my particular skin tone it had problems it was clearly made for people who are lighter than I am and these days my hang up is do I want to give these people a full image of my body because I am on the paranoid side of things and that has been my real hold back here.

6:04Now this is only available in the U.S. so I can't test it anyway but I do want something like this. Mentally I want this. I want to be able to try on a whole bunch of things without having to go to 900 stores. Seeing how it moves, I'm still not sold they'll be able to get that right with the various fabrics because I have also bought stuff online as I'm sure many of you have that was not the fabric listed in the description yeah no well i hadn't even thought about that part of it uh

6:31Jenn Cutter: because there's a lot of there's a lot of failure points in the chain none of them are unsolvable but but things to be like i i don't want to rely on this until i'm sure they've figured it out uh the demo that they show is of a black woman so i think they're trying to say hey this we we have definitely trained this model on a variety of skin tones now um but they're also not going straight for cosmetics uh so maybe that's less of an issue uh with various things but you know the way colors match with your skin is is important so it's it's not not important uh i hadn't even thought about the fact that i i had thought about the fact that well how good are they gonna be at knowing what material is actually there and how it moves and all of that i hadn't even thought about the fact that like and then are they going to make sure that that's the material you get when you order it right because those are two parts of that two sides of that no that is top of mind for me because one it's summer and summer dresses are a thing uh and two uh wedding prep for friends weddings and bridesmaids dresses like you'll have like okay so the bodice is this and then you know the bottom flows because it's that and for the ones that have arms those are this fabric because it's just it's so much stuff in one dress and like i understand why it costs a billion dollars but like okay having to go to all these stores and do all these like i know it's a wedding event and all that stuff.

7:51But yes, I would have loved to have simplified that process.

7:54Jenn Cutter: I think that's my problem with these apps is they're really not good at that. You're still going to have to go to a fitting if you really want to get your dress to look right and have the right feel. This is for casual stuff to be like, you know, oh, I kind of like that top. Let me see if it looks good on me. But is that compelling enough to use this? You know what I mean? Like, not that it's a lot of trouble, but there's some friction points and like having to get a full body scan. And then even once you've done that, open the app and then find the photo. Like, I'm not sure how many people are just going to do that in everyday life.

8:27Well, these days, again, from the old days, like you had to make sure your photo was perfect. Like my government ID had less requirements for a photo being perfect than those early apps. These days, it'll correct a lot of stuff for you. And it's a lot simpler. It's like, okay, are you in a position to get a full body shot? Great, we're going to make it work, whatever it is.

8:46Jenn Cutter: Yeah, but you had to really, really want that, that blouse that you saw on that Netflix show to bother like taking a picture of the screen because Netflix blocks screenshots on your laptop and you know like I just I just feel like I really do and maybe folks you can weigh on this if you disagree with me especially feedback at daily tech news show.com I feel like this is one of those those things like when they show off travel planning at developers conferences and it looks great but you're like I'm never going to do that that's not how I that's not how I do my travel planning it feels like that like these are things that sound great and look fun in the demo but when it comes to it I don't know how many people are really gonna do it on a regular basis I don't know if this one is there yet but I just like that they keep iterating and trying it because I think eventually yeah yeah we're gonna get to a pretty usable standard thing where this just comes with stuff it's not you know it's more of a default than a bonus.

9:44Jenn Cutter: Yeah, no, that's a good point. There is enough of a demand for the idea of this that at some point they'll get it to a state that works and then people will use it. DTNS is made possible by you, the listener. Thanks to Carmine Bailey, Chris Beneteau, Jeffrey Zilks, and our new patron Eiler. Welcome, Eiler! New patron! Episode prep gets messy when research, Slack threads, and script trackers are all in different places. That's where ChatGPT work comes in. Give it the goal and connect to the tools where work happens, like apps and files, and it can help pull the pieces into a draft you can review without you having to re-explain the project at every step.

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10:50Jenn Cutter: With the Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One, you earn unlimited 2 % cash back on every purchase. And you get big purchasing power, so your business can spend more and earn more. Steven, Brandon, and Bruno, the business owners of SandCloud, reinvested their 2 % cash back to help build the company's retail presence. Capital One, what's in your wallet? Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash Spark Cash Plus. Terms apply. Meet Amazon Ads rising star Daryl Spencer, who set out to redefine men's self-care with his brand Crown Skin. Amazon Ads helped him grow. I walked away from big tech to build a luxury brand in a category that no one was paying attention to.

11:29Jenn Cutter: With the help of Amazon Ads, I'm reaching relevant audiences and competing with the biggest names in men's grooming. We've scaled to over$500 ,000 in monthly revenue. Watch Crown Skin's story at advertising.amazon.com slash rising-stars. Some days, getting the work done isn't the problem. Staying locked in is. AlphaBrain is Onnit's daily nootropic formula for cognitive support, designed to support memory, focus, attention, and mental clarity. Its formula with science-driven ingredients include theanine and huperzine A to support focus and memory, and it's caffeine-free. So when you're deep in the work, AlphaBrain helps support enhanced productivity and tune-out distractions.

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13:15Jenn Cutter: There's more we need to know today. Let's get to the briefs. Ars Technica's latest tests show that game ports for the Linux-based Steam OS now run at a higher frame rate than on Windows 11. This is the first time SteamOS has outperformed Windows in Ars' metrics. Ars Technica performed its test on a Lenovo Legion Go S, which is designed to run SteamOS or Windows 11. One reason is that SteamOS games can run faster despite the translation layer is because Windows has a lot of overhead that's not exactly necessary for games that SteamOS does not. This is one of the reasons that the Xbox experience for handheld running on the ROG Alley has been slimmed down to minimize background activity and defer non-essential tax.

14:02In related news, the Xbox app for Windows now lists games you've installed from Steam, Epic, Ubisoft, Riot, and Battle.net game launchers so you can start them right from the Xbox app.

14:13Jenn Cutter: Yeah, this is interesting. I love that ours used the Legion Go so that they were sort of eliminating the idea of having to, you know, do workarounds to get Windows. Legion Go is designed for both of those. It's not trying to say that SteamOS is better. It's just saying SteamOS got to parity, even though they have to use the Proton layer for translation, which is a testament to how good the SteamOS port is at this. Meanwhile, Microsoft's over there saying, we have developed a thing that will make us better at this too. And we just added the launchers so that everything works there. This is fun.

14:52Jenn Cutter: This is a fun little space to keep an eye on. I think this is an everybody wins scenario. Because for people who are using Windows and can only use Windows, now you've got all your games in one spot, as we've dreamed about for ages. And then for people who use SteamOS, they're like, yay, we win. We're awesome. We're the best. At least at frame rates in this test on Allegiant Go. But to me, that says like, okay, these are good options either way, right? Like you can't lose. You're going to have a decent experience here. I know that people want to have bragging rights because they divide up into teams on this stuff.

15:26Jenn Cutter: Oh, console wars. Yeah, yeah. But it really is good for everyone. You're absolutely right about that. And if anybody's concerned about the Xbox app on Windows, they aren't trying to disintermediate you from your platform. They will tell you which platform the game is coming from in the interface. That way, if you need to go get downloadable content or you want to go directly there, you're not losing track of where it is. They're just trying to make it easier to launch the game. an update to windows 11 does not remove the famed bsod but it does change the b from blue to black the new black screen of death will also have less information on it when your system crashes uh not that the old blue screen of death's information was often all that useful for folks uh but the new error screen will give you an error code and the name of the driver or other file at fault for the crash.

16:21Jenn Cutter: The QR code is gone. Some people may not even realize it was there, but the blue screen of death had a QR code for a while that would take you to troubleshooting information. That's not there. You just get the error code and the name of the file. Also, Windows launching quick machine recovery along with the black screen of death that uses Windows recovery environment to recover from repeated crashes or reboots so that they can get you back on your feet faster. The new black screen of death, which I know Microsoft probably hates it every time I'm saying that because that's not what they want it to be called.

16:54Jenn Cutter: But that new error screen is available to Windows Insiders right now and will roll out to all later this summer as part of Windows 11 version 24H2. BSODs will never die. No, it's still the BSOD. It's like, you know, the SkyDome is the SkyDome no matter how many times an answer is called at the Rogers Center. It's not going to matter. Exactly. After a brief pause, Google is restarting the rollout of its Ask Photos feature in the US. Google paused the rollout because of latency and interface issues. The new rollout now combines the existing search with the Gemini-powered one, so you get simple results fast, and then the more complex Gemini-powered ones will fill in when they're ready.

17:37Google also announced Gemma 3N, a generative model for mobile devices. It's designed for developers to modify and include in their apps without needing to use Google's cloud service. It can natively process images, audio, and video to generate text and run on hardware with as little as 2 gigs of RAM.

17:56Jenn Cutter: Yeah, the Gemma 3N is really interesting. It's another example of a more open approach by Google to a lot of this stuff. They're taking a hybrid approach. Some stuff is very proprietary, but this is not. So that's pretty good for developers. and you will see more features be able to be included in developer apps. And then I think what Google hopes is those developers will then like Google products and use them more in places where they can make money off of them. And the Ask Photos feature, I wonder how this is going to work in practice when you've got latent results populating, but at least you're not going to be sitting there waiting for results all the time.

18:31Jenn Cutter: So that's good. Germany's Data Protection Commissioner has determined that China's DeepSeek transfers German user data to Chinese servers in violation of EU data protection rules. In order to be in compliance, DeepSeek needs to demonstrate that user data stored in China is protected at a level equivalent to what it would be in the EU, and they have not done that to Germany's satisfaction. The commissioner asked Google and Apple to review whether those apps should be allowed in the stores, given that finding, while an EU-wide investigation is carried out. that could lead to an order to remove DeepSeq from the stores.

19:07Jenn Cutter: So they're basically saying, hey, you might want to look at whether these violate your own policies for now while they look at maybe justifying a complete European ban. There is some support for that. Italy already has banned DeepSeq inside of its country. They did that back in February. Ireland has requested more information on how DeepSeq processes user data. So there's momentum to do this. Yeah, I had not seen before. I know companies and nations have had issues with things being stored in China. But the demand to demonstrate that data on Chinese servers is protected at an EU equivalent level, that almost feels like progress.

19:48They're not saying like, no, get it out of China 100%. They're saying just prove to us that this meets the standards we have here.

19:54Jenn Cutter: This was the problem with storing data in the U.S. for the longest time because they had a safe harbor provision that was struck down by the EU courts and they had to figure out how to prove this equivalency in the U.S. too. So, yeah, it's interesting to see that be applied to China. Passengers on domestic flights in China will no longer be allowed to bring aboard power banks unless they have the China compulsory certification mark. The mark must not be faded or illegible, and the device must not be subject to a recall. Passengers with such a device may have their power bank confiscated or denied boarding.

20:30Along with this, the Civil Aviation Administration of China has called for improved charging facilities for passengers in airport terminals, which is a boon to anyone in airport terminals.

20:41Jenn Cutter: Yeah, anybody doing a layover is going to like that. They basically want people to not feel like they have to bring those extra batteries. I don't think that's going to happen, but if they improve the charging, that's great. And anybody flying through China, changing plays in Shenzhen or Beijing, or even in Hong Kong, honestly, because I think this will apply there as well, are going to need to know about this and hopefully benefit from it. Apple and Meta have announced their proposed changes to correct violations of the Digital Markets Act in Europe. Apple will let developers promote offers outside the App Store across external websites, apps, and marketplaces before it could just be to one app.

21:22Jenn Cutter: It can include in-app web views and promotions. Links can include tracking parameters now, point to multiple destinations, not just that static web page. And the link and promotion can be designed any way the developer wishes. They removed the restrictions on that. Apple will still give a warning page just to let people know that they're leaving the Apple ecosystem. but users will now have the option to choose not to see that warning after the first time, before it happened every time you clicked that link. Apple also reduced the fees that it charges on any customer acquired outside of its app store.

21:54Jenn Cutter: We'll see if that's an acceptable fee to the EU. And there's a new core technology commission instead of a core technology fee. Before it was 50 cents per user. Now it's 5 % of what is made off that user. For developers who agree to the standard business terms, that will apply immediately. and eventually will apply to all developers by January 1st. Meanwhile, the European Commission is not optimistic that Meta's changes are going to avoid fines. Meta originally offered users the option of paying for no tracking or getting tracked to use the free version. That was considered a breach of the DMA, so Meta has now changed it to use less personal data for the free service.

22:33Jenn Cutter: A spokesperson from the European Union told Reuters, The commission cannot confirm at this stage if these are sufficient to comply with the main parameters of compliance outlined in its noncompliance decision, which is a long way of saying, I don't know if that washes. They may get fined. well uh i want to say credit to apple that's uh i i'm sure that they kind of knew they would end up in this position eventually and they had been delaying it as long as possible this feels again not being a lawyer and definitely not being a lawyer in the eu this feels like this should pass i don't know how much lower they can go without just saying like maybe we'll just leave this area Well, they could just not fine.

23:16Jenn Cutter: They could just not charge people for things that don't happen on their platform. I don't think they're going to do that. It is still unnecessarily complex, but it sounds like they worked with the EU and they were talking well and reached some agreements. So that feels like it's going in the right direction. Like you said, Meta, on the other hand, is accusing the EU of consistently moving the goal line. And the EU is saying, like, I don't think what you're doing is right. So those two are not talking well. Yeah, well, the meta stuff, like I'm scared that that one's going to eventually happen here too.

23:49But yeah, like there's nothing about the meta thing that feels good as an end user. You feel like you're losing both ways. You feel like, OK, either I have to give these guys money or I have to consent to I don't know because I've never read a privacy policy from again, from just a general user perspective.

24:07Jenn Cutter: I mean, you could also just not use it. Yeah, that's always the option. That's where a lot of people should be ending up. And instead they're like, but I want to keep using it. It's like, maybe it's not worth it. I don't know. The Apple warnings I find kind of interesting. I like them. I would want, again, using my parents always as a constant example, I would want my parents to know every time, hey, this is what you're doing. Do not always turn this off. It's like turning off Windows Defender and never ever being asked about that. It's just for that link, right? So what was happening before is people were getting frustrated.

24:41Jenn Cutter: like yeah i know and so giving you the option to turn it off means it won't turn off on its own and it'll still be there for other oh okay i thought this was gonna be like a universal toggle and i was like oh no unless i'm misunderstanding it i think it's just for individual uh in individual apps a japanese court ruled that google infringed on patents from pantech in the pixel 7 series of smartphones and they no longer sell the pixel 7 in japan The patent involved signal mapping for LTE service. Pantech is pursuing a more relevant ban on sales of the Pixel 8 and Pixel 9 series. Japan is one of the strongest markets for Pixel sales.

25:20Jenn Cutter: Yeah, Pantech stopped selling phones a while ago, so it feels like they're headed towards patent troll country with this. I'm not sure that Google is selling a whole lot of Pixel 7s, but if they can get the 8 or 9 ban, then yeah, that would hurt. New York Times reports that former Uber founder and CEO Travis Kalanick is attempting to put together an offer to buy the U.S. operations of China's autonomous vehicle company Pony AI. The Times says Uber may be involved in the transaction in some way, helping facilitate it. But this would not involve Uber as an owner, maybe as a shareholder. It would be Kalanick getting back into the autonomous vehicle game.

26:00The BBC has introduced a paid service in the U.S. for$50 a year or$9 a month. Paying users will have access to most BBC News stories and the streaming BBC News video channel. Non-paying users will still have access to some stories as well as World Service, language services, newsletters and podcasts.

26:21Jenn Cutter: I'll be honest, this feels like the wrong move to me. I used to be a BBC dedicated reader every day. And about a year ago, they changed how they present the stories and the tone of a lot of the stories in a way that has me not reading them as often. I still listen to the BBC World Service every day. So I'm glad that that's still going to be without charge. I'd be happy to pay for the BBC World Service, though. I'm not in a position where I feel like I need to pay for the app, but it may make me use it less. Yeah, once they redesigned their websites, I also noticed the tone shift, but I wasn't sure if it was just me or just a couple of writers.

26:59Jenn Cutter: Well, if it's just you, it's just us, because I definitely noticed it too. This last bit is probably only a news story for me and the folks who follow what I use, but right now I'm using ExpressVPN because I'm in a hotel. ExpressVPN has been my regular VPN service for years now. It just published the results of an independent audit from accounting firm KPMG, which found reasonable assurance that the VPN provider system prevents the logging of user activity. This was a, you know, a not the most comprehensive investigation that they can do, which is why it's reasonable assurance. But it's a good one.

27:41Jenn Cutter: And KPMG is a reliable service. So this is not bad news. They didn't find anything bad in the level of looking that they were doing. ExpressVPN uses RAM-based services, which wipe all memory when rebooted. They didn't find any logging even when they weren't rebooting, but the fact that they use that RAM-based service means anytime they reboot, the logs are just gone if they were there, and so that's good news. NordVPN uses RAM-based services too. ProtonVPN uses strongly encrypted drives, which it argues is better because you don't have to reboot to make sure there's nothing there. It's just all encrypted so they can't see it.

28:19What do you want to hear us talk about on the show? One way to let us know is in our subreddit, so you can submit stories and vote on them at reddit.com slash r slash daily tech news show.

28:34Jenn Cutter: With the Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One, you earn unlimited 2 % cash back on every purchase. And you get big purchasing power so your business can spend more and earn more. Stephen, Brandon, and Bruno, the business owners of SandCloud, reinvested their 2 % cash back to help build the company's retail presence. Capital One, what's in your wallet? Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash SparkCash Plus. Terms apply. When demand slowed for HydroJug, Amazon Ads rising star Hayden Wadsworth pivoted. When our bank account hit near zero, my brother Jake and I had one last shot to save HydroJug. So we engineered the Traveler, a leak-proof, coupler-friendly Tumblr.

29:13Amazon Ads enables a business to be able to expand their product shelf because of the visibility and the reach you can get.

29:21Jenn Cutter: Each week, our new-to-brand customers make up about 95 % of all of our sales. Watch HydroJug's story at advertising.amazon.com slash rising-stars.

29:32We end every episode of DTNS with some shared wisdom. Today, Mike has some praise for us.

29:39Jenn Cutter: Yeah, we actually have a couple of emails here. We got Mike and Mark. Mike wrote, short one, Tom, but just listening to today's briefing on Thursday, and I felt moved to say the tone, perspicacity, and pod chemistry of your new co-host, Jen Cutter, Huen Tuedao, Jason Howell, is a wonderful kind of special to hear. Add to this the rare but cherished occasional appearance by Sarah Lane is such a joy. The briefing has become, as with live, a gem in your pod portfolio. Regards, Mike A. Aw, thank you, Mike A. We really appreciate hearing when we're doing things well as when, as we get anything wrong or anything else you guys want to contribute.

30:21We love your letters.

30:23Jenn Cutter: And you know what I like about this? Mike's been a big supporter of the show for a long time, and I can't thank him enough for his support. And he's always honest. He has told me when things are rubbing him the wrong way or don't seem to work as well. And I've appreciated those as well. So hearing this from Mike meant a little more for me, too, because I'm like, oh, he wouldn't just be saying this out of nowhere. And I had the same reaction listening to the show yesterday. I was like, wow, this is a really good show, even though I'm not on it. So it was really special to see Mike's email follow up on that.

30:55Jenn Cutter: And then Mark wrote, thank you, Bart Bouchotts. raindrop.io is exactly what I've been looking for to keep track of sites instead of leaving 80 tabs open on three different devices this was an excellent recommendation uh mark I'm glad Bart's Bart's insights worked for you that's awesome I have the highest amount of respect for DTNS fans for all the comments I receive on my personal um socials as well and yeah I learn a lot from doing this show because yeah raindrop.io is like oh I am that person with literally a thousand plus tabs open and I need to be better with that in my own research. Have you started using Raindrop?

31:34No, I have it bookmarked in my thousand tabs right now.

31:38Jenn Cutter: You've got to sort through it and find it. Yeah, it's a little chicken and the egg this year, huh? That's funny. So what are you thinking about? Do you have some insight into a story? Please share it with us, as I said, over at feedback at dailytechnewshow.com. Also, big thanks to Mark and Mike for contributing to today's show. We appreciate getting multiple emails from folks. Keep them coming. Also, thank you for being along for Daily Tech News Show. You can keep us in business by becoming a patron at patreon.com slash DTNS.

32:15Jenn Cutter: This week's episodes of Daily Tech News Show Briefing were created by the following people. Host, producer, and writer Tom Merritt. Host and writer Jason Howell. Co-host Rob Dunwood. Co-host Jen Cutter. Producer Anthony Lemos. Producer Roger Chang, Editor Hammond Chamberlain, Editor Victor Bognat, Science Correspondent Dr. Nikki Ackermans, Social Media Producer and Moderator Zoe Detterding. Our mods, Beatmaster, W's Goddess One, BioCow, Captain Kipper, Steve Godorama, Paul Reese, Matthew J. Stevens, a.k.a. Gadget Virtuoso, and J.D. Galloway. Mod and video hosting by Dan Christensen. Music provided by Martin Bell and Dan Luters.

32:49Jenn Cutter: Art by Len Peralta. Acast ad support from Tatiana Matias. Patreon support from Tom McNeil. Our guests this week included Andy Beach, Bart Bouchotts, and Patrick Beja. And thanks to all our patrons who make the show possible. This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

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