DTNS WEEKEND: Robb Dunewood's Second Brain

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3:03Welcome to another Daily Tech News Show weekend edition. It's the weekend, so we kind of kick back, we relax, and we just do a single topic on these shows. I am very pleased today to welcome my co-host Rob Dunwood to the weekend edition. Hey, Rob, how's it going? What's going on, man? What's going on? This isn't quite chicken wings and beer in SMR terms, but it's more along the road to that way, if you know what I mean.

3:30Robb Dunewood: I definitely do. It's been a minute since we've done that. So this is a nostalgic moment for me. Yeah, no kidding. So we've had a lot of folks notice that every once in a while you mention your second brain, right? I think that comes up quite a bit. And a couple of folks were like, can you do an episode where Rob talks about what that is and how he manages it? Is it in a jar like Spock's brain or is it something else? So let's start there. What is a second brain? What do you mean by that? So it's essentially a methodology that allows you to build a digital commonplace book. When you think commonplace book, these are the books like I think the first place I ever noticed it was in Indiana Jones and the Temple of June.

4:15Robb Dunewood: You know, his dad, Dr. Jones or Professor Jones, he had that leather book that he sent to his son. And it's just a book. It's not it's not really a diary or even a journal, but it's just a place where you can capture things that stand out to you that you want to remember. You just write them down. And instead of trying to keep everything in your mineral Rolodex, you've actually got a physical place you can go to recall things. And the second brain was something that was developed by I think that the name came from Tiago Forte. People have been doing this kind of stuff since computers have been computers, but he kind of, you know, put a framework behind it, called it a second brain.

4:52Robb Dunewood: And it's been it's been catching on ever since probably like the late late 2019, like 2018, 2019, 2020. I definitely got into it around 2019, 2020 when I started paying attention to it. Yeah. So this isn't just something you you made up one day. It's something that that lots of people have been developing over the years. Absolutely. It falls into that personal productivity and time management, that type of thing. And for me, it goes back to when I was in high school, I had a teacher. In fact, I've talked to you about this teacher before. His name is Thomas Crane. You might remember that. Yeah, Mr.

5:27Robb Dunewood: Crane. Mr. Crane. And he told me once, it's like, you have got a ridiculously good memory, unfortunately, a short term. So if you want to actually do well on these tests, as we are in your junior year, your senior year, and definitely when you get into college, you better figure out a way to start writing stuff down. So for me, I got started just doing notes. I became a very copious taker of notes all the way back in the late 80s after I had read a couple books, on productivity. It's like, oh, if you want to remember something, write it down. It kind of makes sense. So I've been doing this for a long time.

6:03Robb Dunewood: And then what a second brain allowed me to do was, or building a second brain, that's the name of the book that I've read to learn how to do this, was actually take all of those notes and sticky notes and notebooks and all that stuff and put that into my phone, which allows me to put that into a database, which basically means that I can put everything without worrying about having too much stuff. Ah, gotcha. Okay. So I think that makes it clearer for a lot of people who are like, wait, you're talking about notebooks and now you're talking about phones. So give us the overview of how a second brain works for you.

6:37Robb Dunewood: So for me, it's pretty straightforward. Anything that is something that I would intend to remember, anything that stands out. So if I hear a good quote, if I see a sign, it's really cool to say something on it. if I hear somebody, you know, giving a speech and they make some really good points, anything that I intend to remember, I tend to take a note about it in as close to real time as possible. So for me, it works out that because I was a, you know, a, you know, a taker of notes, I took a ton of notes writing in notebooks, you know, from probably like my, you know, my late teens all the way up until, you know, it became easier to do it on computers.

7:17Robb Dunewood: I just write everything down. And over time, what started to happen is that I would write things down on a sticky note or a 355 card, and then I would just take a picture of it and just have it on my phone. And what became very evident to me is that I have a lot of stuff in a lot of places, and there was just no organization to it. So I would actually take a picture of a coat that I liked, but I couldn't remember where I put the picture of the coat that I liked. I just knew that I had it somewhere. So I would spend enormous amounts of time trying to find where's that thing that I heard somebody say about this thing that I vaguely remember.

7:50Robb Dunewood: And, you know, I heard some people talking about Tiago Forte and Forte Labs and some training that they were doing on how you can do this digital note taking in a much more effective way. And actually took that training. I think it was like it was it was before the pandemic. So it was like January, February of 2020 in the before times. and I've been a fan ever since. So what kind of, how do you manage this, right? Because I totally get that. And it's one of the things I was thinking of like, well, sure, I could take notes and then I put them somewhere. But then how do I make sure that I'm able to find those notes or they are at my command?

8:28Like how does the recall, I get the storage. How does the recall work?

8:32Robb Dunewood: Well, one of the things is that, and there's some core tenets here. One of them is called code. And this is coming directly from Tiago Forte. And CODE is an acronym for capture, organize, distill and express. So basically, I try to capture in the same tools all the time. My camera app. My second brain is actually built in Evernote. I've been using Evernote for for a long time for for many, many years. And although there are other things out there that I've tried, it's just so easy to use on a phone. So everything that I capture, I capture in Evernote. I use my phone to take pictures. I'll use tools like one tool is called Readwise.

9:12Robb Dunewood: Readwise allows you to do is is basically you take insights from pretty much anything that you read and then put them into a repository. In my case, my Evernote. So I use Readwise to capture things that I would highlight on my Kindle. I use Readwise as a companion app called Reader that is kind of like a read it later app. So any links that I want to capture, I just throw them in the reader and they automatically make their way into my second brain, which is all housed inside of Evernote. So it gives me one place to go for everything that I've captured, whether I've taken a picture of something, whether I recorded an audio clip of something, whether it was a website link, whether it was a podcast I was listening to.

9:56Robb Dunewood: All that stuff eventually makes it into Evernote. And then from with Evernote, that gives me the tool to be able to recall kind of everything that I've done. So Readwise is like a middle manager, so to speak, right? Exactly. It's a really cool app. So like, you know, if you're using your Kindle, you can take a highlight of something and it's highlighted in the Kindle. What that will actually do is send that to Readwise. Readwise will then take that highlight and then automatically make a note for me inside of Evernote. So I can be reading something inside of Readwise and it should say inside of, you know, inside of my Kindle.

10:31Robb Dunewood: And then it'll automatically show up in Readwise with my highlights that I thought were interesting. That's the key piece here. The entire book doesn't just show up. is the highlight of the paragraph, just the thing that I highlight. And it makes it very easy to recall that and bring it up when you want to use it later. Episode prep gets messy when research, Slack threads, and script trackers are all in different places. That's where ChatGPT work comes in. Give it the goal and connect to the tools where work happens, like apps and files. And it can help pull the pieces into a draft you can review without you having to re-explain the project at every step.

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14:49Okay, so you look at something, you read something, you hear something even, sounds like sometimes, and you say, I want to take a note of that. You get it sent to Evernote. Talk to me about the other side of it when you're like, how does it work as far as getting it out of Evernote and how does that benefit you beyond just, what I'm really curious about, are there times when you pull something out that you wouldn't have thought to pull out before?

15:17Robb Dunewood: So one of the keys here, I said that code acronym, the D stood for distill. So one of the things and one of the areas where people really fall down with this type of productivity is that they will capture everything, but they never go back and actually look at the stuff they captured in any type of meaningful way until they, oh, I think I know I'll put something somewhere. I just can't remember where I put it. Let me go try to figure it out. So I actually make it a point to at least twice, usually three to four times a week. I'll actually take 15, 20 minutes and I will just go through all of my recent captures into my second brain and distill them and say, oh yeah, this is something that I really want to keep.

15:56Robb Dunewood: This is something that I don't really need. This is something that I probably will eventually use someday. I'll put it into a category that I don't look at all the time, but I know that it's there. And that is, you know, another acronym is called PARA. And it stands for, you know, the P is for, you just asked me to, I forgot what that stands for. I'll have to look that up. But, you know, it's like projects, areas, resources, and archives. And this is one of the things that is very brilliant about the second brain methodology is that a big problem for me was that I literally would have a thousand notes and I would have 750 categories for the notes.

16:37Robb Dunewood: So it became almost impossible to remember where I put anything. With PARA, there literally are four significant categories to my notes, just distinct projects or things that I'm working on right now. Areas are things that I'm interested in this stuff. I may not be doing something right this moment, but it's something that I'm interested in. A resource is something I don't necessarily need right now, but it's something that is important to me. I'd like to be able to recall it. And then if it doesn't fit into one of those three categories, it goes into archives. But it's basically all flat. And this is where putting things in databases makes this really easy.

17:12Robb Dunewood: I don't have to have a significant nomenclature for all of my different folders. It's not like a file cabinet. Everything is pretty flat in one of these four categories. and it allows me to really quickly recall. So I don't have to remember where I put something. If I'm working on it, I know that it's a project. If I was recently working on it, it was either a project or an area. If it's something that came from three, four years ago, I just made it a resource. If I recall it regularly and if I don't need it at any point in the near future, I just throw it in archives and it makes it so easy to find literally everything.

17:46So that's the distill part. We talked about the capture. We talked about the organize. what's the E?

17:53Robb Dunewood: Express. So one of the other things here is that if you are collecting all of this information, but you don't do anything with it, it kind of just becomes a lot of storage. So I do tend to go through and express the stuff that I've captured, whether it be through a podcast or something that I write a newsletter or whatever. The reason I'm capturing all this information that I think is interesting to me is because I want to use it in some form or fashion later. For me, that's generally content creation. So as part of that code or the end of it is that I created all these things. I put all this stuff into my second brain so that I can express it at some point later as a new thought that may be a derivative of five things that I may have read over the last 5, 10, 15, 20 years, whatever the case is.

18:41So this all makes sense. And I'm actually, I kind of want to apply it to the physical world, not just the mental world a little bit. Do you find examples where you're like, oh, yeah, this is making me more productive? I wouldn't have thought of this. I wouldn't have been able to do this if I didn't have this system.

19:01Robb Dunewood: Oh, absolutely. There's a good quote out there that brains are for having ideas, not holding them. So one of the things that this does for me is it allows me to get the trying to remember everything out of my head and I can spend more time actually thinking about the things that I no longer have to remember. So if you think of just your mind, you don't have infinite capacity in your mind. You can only remember so much. You can only do so many things mentally at one time. For me, I have completely removed telephone number. I have I know my telephone number, my wife's telephone number and my mother's telephone number.

19:40Robb Dunewood: That's it. There's no other numbers that I have any idea what they are. But because I don't have any idea, I have a place I can go look them up. I don't have to have an idea. I just have a place I can always go look them up. I do the same thing now with things that I need to remember. I don't need to remember that I have an appointment Tuesday at 4 p.m. It's in my calendar and I'll get a notification for it. My calendar is also a part of my second brain because I don't have to remember it. I can now just think about other things. So what this has really done for me, particularly since I have become a solopreneur of sense, when I've left the corporate world, is that I deal with a lot of people.

20:16Robb Dunewood: I talk about a lot of different stuff in a lot of different places. And this gives me the ability to not try to remember all of that intentionally. I don't have to. It's in my second brain, but I have a very, very effective way to recall it whenever I need that information. Yeah, that comes straight out of the getting things done milieu, too, where it's like you identify a thing and then you assign it so you don't have to think about it. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, and the second brain is a great way to manage that part of the process. So, yeah, the second brain for me is something I've been doing since probably 2020.

20:50Robb Dunewood: But I've been doing productivity stuff like this since like the 80s when I was when I was in high school. Like it all goes back to, you know, a high school actually had a high school professor named Professor Crane. And when he told me, hey, you've got a great memory, but it's not going to work as well for you when you get to college. You might need to start writing things down. And he carried that moleskin leather bound book that looked like he had had it for 50 years with him everywhere. I wasn't doing that, but I did become a fan of those of those me college ruled or quad ruled composition books that I literally would just take all of my notes down in them.

21:29Robb Dunewood: and we're talking over time, I probably have hundreds of those notebooks that are just filled up with things that I, to this day, could go back and look and see what I was doing when I was in physics class in, you know, 2000, you know, not 2000, in 1991, you know, when I was in college, because I wrote them down. I don't have to remember it. I can go back and I can access it. Now, today, I don't have all that stuff digitized. So it would be a chore to try to figure out which book had which thought in it, but it's all there. At some point, I might try to do that. to digitize all that and see if something comes of it.

22:02Yeah, especially with handwriting recognition the way it is now and AI being able to scan and process stuff. It's becoming easier on that end. It's just the physical thing of having to capture. It's the capture that's the slow part there.

22:18Robb Dunewood: So for me, the OCR has changed the game for me because literally everything can go on my phone. You've probably seen me do this. What are you taking a picture of? I literally take a picture of menus. If I like this restaurant and want to go back to it, why do I have to remember what they had? Take a picture of the menu and put it in my notes. And if I ever want to go to that restaurant again, I can just pull the menu up and it's right there in front of me. I don't have to remember that. It's something that my phone and my database can remember for me infinitely better than I can do in my own head.

22:54Do you have a good example of something in the past couple of months that you went to Evernote and you were like, oh, I need that, and it was there?

23:04Robb Dunewood: I was trying to remember. One of my favorite quotes is from – and I'm trying to remember it now. I normally don't have to remember these, but I think it is Whitney Young Jr. And it's better to be prepared for an opportunity and not have one than have an opportunity and not be prepared. I couldn't remember exactly what it was, exactly who said it, but I knew that it was something that I wanted to tell to someone. This was just probably a few weeks ago. So I was like, favorite quotes. I think it was Whitney Young Jr. Whitney Young Jr. Oh, yeah, here it is. And was able to send that quote on to somebody.

23:35Robb Dunewood: So that was probably in the last week or 10 days. I use my second brain. I don't even think about it anymore. It is literally something that I use every day. there is on a good day there might be 10 15 things going in it on a bad day there's probably three or four things going in it but every day it's getting added to and then at least on sunday evenings and on wednesday mornings i absolutely have scheduled time to distill the information that i've put in now usually we'll throw in one or two other days when i'm just sitting in the car waiting on somebody or you know you know in between you know i'm waiting for something to happen and i don't you know i've got a little bit you know 10 15 minutes free time i'll just go through oh yeah I remember when I, you know, when I saw this or did this, and this is all stuff that has happened over the last week or seven days.

24:19Robb Dunewood: But when you can get a few days away from something, you are able to, you know, better determine, do I really need this sticky note of this number for, you know, for the dog catcher? It's like, I probably don't need to put that in my notes because who knows if that person will be a dog catcher, you know, whenever I would want to get a dog catcher, I can just literally go to, you know, the Oracle of all knowledge and say, hey, can be a number for a dog catcher. So those kind of things, that's where the distillation comes in. I will determine whether or not something that I actually captured that I thought in the time was worthy of being captured actually is.

24:54Robb Dunewood: And if it makes it into one of those final four categories. How much time do you spend distilling then on average? I would say I probably spend no more. It's probably 30 minutes to an hour a week. Okay. But at a session, it's less than that. Oh yeah. 10, 15 minutes at a time. Yeah. Yeah. That's not bad. Because it's like, you know, I mean, here's the thing. It's like, you know, every day we go through and somebody will say something to you that was remarkable and you just kind of remember it. The problem is that if you try to remember it three days from now, it's like, what did Rob say? That was, you know, so for me, I just stick anything in there.

25:29Robb Dunewood: And then two or three days later, I'll figure out, was that something that I actually needed to keep in there or not?

26:00www.capitalone.com Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

26:41You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S. offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. yeah and the key is making it easy to capture right that's the hang-up i think a lot of times is okay i want to take a picture of this menu but then i have to remember to go back and take the menu and put it somewhere and you've got a system that's like yeah i don't have to remember to do

27:36Robb Dunewood: any of that and that's where the that's where the second brain comes in the system to actually capture uh organize distill and express the information that you stick in there that that's That's where all this magic happens. And it took probably six months for me to really get used to putting everything in there. What I would have to do is, oh, I remembered this and I didn't put it in my notes. Let me go do it now. So I would find myself doing things outside of the, as soon as it's said or as soon as it's read, taking a picture. So right now, if I'm in the middle of a conversation with you, I won't say, hey, Tom, stop.

28:13Robb Dunewood: I want to record what you just said, but it'll go in there immediately after. But if it was like, if you showed me something, click with the phone. Because I mean, I literally can take a picture with my phone in under probably half a second. It's just double clicking the pictures, point my phone at whatever, double click a button, and the picture is taken automatically. I mean, this is a little out there. But when you were talking about this distilling process, I was thinking that is a step in organizing your stuff that would be useful, right? We have no problem capturing things. We go to the grocery store.

28:49We go to a retail store. We buy stuff, right? Then some of us are better at the organizing than others, right? So there's probably something there. But how many people go back regularly and look at all the stuff they've acquired and decide, oh, I don't need that anymore. Let me put that on eBay. Let me donate that to Goodwill. That's just trash. Let me toss that in the recycling. I think just managing the amount of stuff in your house would benefit from this.

29:16Robb Dunewood: It does. And I do. I put bills in there. Literally, for me, I put everything into my second brain. and it has gotten to the point now to where I got to have a backup. So I talked about Evernote and that is my primary, but I also send those, everything also goes to two other places because a whole heck of a lot has to happen for all three of these data centers to be down simultaneously and me not to be able to access. It's either going to be in, well, it's always in Evernote. It's also going to be in my Google account and will also be in my Dropbox account. And it's all automated. I don't have to do anything to make that happen.

29:55Robb Dunewood: But all of my stuff goes to those places and I can ultimately get to it. Yeah. And I mean, it's your brain. You need to protect that. You need redundancy. Even though it is your second brain, you need some backups to that. That's important stuff, right? Yeah. And I would say that it has made me significantly more productive than I was before I was employing it. Because there will always be, oh, who was that person that I met at that conference? I forgot to write their name down. Yeah. And, you know, I'm now spending time trying to remember that just doesn't happen anymore. When I go, it's like, I'll just take a picture of your badge.

30:33Robb Dunewood: I got you. You're here. I've seen you do that. Yeah. I mean, it's just something that I do. People aren't freaked out by it at this point. It's like, you know, phones are so pervasive. But for me, just being able to take that picture, that is probably 70 % of the way that I get stuff into my second brain. It's not me writing something, which I will do because I do have a phone. You know, folks, you're still using Androids. Like as long as as long as they have styluses in them, I will continue to use it. iPhone has not built a phone yet with the stylus. Therefore, I don't use an iPhone. That is the biggest reason why I've never really tried an iPhone.

31:08Robb Dunewood: It's like, you know, once I got the like the original Galaxy Note, I could not go back to having a phone. Didn't have a stylus on it because I literally take notes on my phone that go into my second brain. and it is worth it to me to be able to do that than to have whatever feature that I could get on an iPhone that I don't have on an Android device. Well, I'm sure folks have follow-up questions on this, so send them to us, feedback at dailytechnewsshow.com. Rob will answer as many of them as he's got time, but he has a little extra time because he's got the second brain. And if we get enough of them, would you be willing to do a follow-up episode on the Q &As?

31:43Oh, absolutely, man.

31:44Robb Dunewood: I love talking about this stuff. It is, it is, it is really changed the way that I, you know, just deal with information. Like I said, it's not, I'm not brand new to it. I've been taking notes for a long time because I found that to be effective, but it's like, you know, they say like, what is it? CEOs generally average about a week, a book every week or so. How do you remember all that? Well, they take notes. Like most CEOs use commonplace books. So I was like, okay, if I'm trying to do that kind of stuff, I probably should do those kind of tasks that they do and write stuff down. And it's been a blessing to me to be able to just remember everything by not having to remember anything.

32:25Well, Rob, thanks, man, for taking the time to chat about this. I know a lot of people had questions about it. Like I said, feedback at dailytechnewsshow.com if you've got follow-ups. And of course, if you want to follow up with Rob, there's lots of places to do that. He's hosting DTNS Live. He's hosting Daily Tech News Show briefing on Mondays. And of course, you've got your own projects out there. Tell folks where they can find everything else you do.

32:48Robb Dunewood: Oh, yeah. You know, my baby was launched right on Daily Tech News Show. I think it was four years ago during Experiment Week. That would be the Tech John. It's been four years. So we are coming up. I think we just did episode 184 this week. So the Tech John is a podcast where we talk about the week's tech. What we talk about is three African-American host. We talk about it, you know, and we talk about tech in the way that it affects and disaffects the African-American community specifically. So yeah, it's a lot of posts, you know, listen to it. A lot of posts like it. So I really appreciate if you come take a check out.

33:21And thanks for supporting both of us at patreon.com slash DTNS. It's one of the reasons we're able to do these extra episodes and keep things going. Thanks, everybody. Have a great weekend. Talk to you soon.

33:42The DTNS family of podcasts, helping each other understand. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

33:55This episode is brought to you by Capital One. Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi-agentic AI. They already deployed one. It's called Chat Concierge and it's simplifying car shopping. Using self-reflection and layered reasoning with live API checks, it doesn't just help buyers find a car they love. It helps schedule a test drive, get pre-approved for financing, and estimate trade in value. Advanced, intuitive, and deployed. That's how they stack. That's technology at Capital One. Hi all, this is Kim and Penn Holderness from Lifeline. Summer is here, which means it's officially travel season.

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