DTNS Weekend - The Science Behind the App That Beats Jet Lag

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2:42Dr Niki: Welcome to the Daily Tech News Show weekend edition gratefully provided to you and thanks for your support of this show. We go into topics a little in depth. And I just got back from a lot of travel across a lot of time zones. And I am not jet lagged, even though I'm just more than 24 hours after having traveled to Japan from my traveled back from Japan. And it's thanks in large part to Dr. Nikki and her recommendation of the time shifter app. So I thought, why not we sit down with Dr. Nikki and talk about this app and figure out why it might work? Is it just my imagination? Did I hypnotize myself into not having jet lag?

3:28Dr Niki: Is there science behind it? I just talked you through it, really. Where did you hear about this? Because you recommended it to me, and then I mentioned it to Eileen, and she's like, oh, I have a friend who lives in Canada, and she has to travel to China because she has family there all the time, and she swears by it. She's like, I never get jet lag because I use time shifter yeah so back in 2023 I had a conference in Australia and it was my first trip to Australia and I needed to like the day after I got there speak at the conference so I was like I need to optimize as much as possible so I don't get jet lag and I looked up like all the sometimes I you know for a researcher sometimes I research a little too much but I did a deep dive I think it was probably on Reddit or something but it was like yeah wear the compression socks do the mask blah blah blah and a lot of people recommended this app over and over so i was like it can't hurt you know it's just an app and uh you can get the first free the first few uses for free which is how you get me is to make me not pay for the app i'm so cheap well yeah and it works super well and so i've just recommended to everyone after that you get one trip round trip for free then you have to pay for it email and so well yeah exactly As long as they don't know it's new, you can get a second one for free.

4:45Dr Niki: And I saw that and I was like, you know what? I'm not going to use it for Europe. I'll just look at what they say to do and kind of follow it. And I did that and maybe it helped a little, but I was pretty, I was still, I still had jet lag. I went to Japan, which is much farther, much bigger time zone shift. And I was like, okay, I'm going to burn my free one on this email address. I'm going to try it out. I'm going to see how it works. And I did. And I wasn't able to follow it 100%. There's so much you can do. But it mostly worked. And it's also relatively easy to follow. It's not making you do backflips or anything.

5:23Dr Niki: Yeah. And in fact, I have some tips on which parts to pay the most attention to based on my own experience. But let's actually do our due diligence here. You looked into this app to find out, like, is this just one of those things where because the app is telling you to do certain things, you, you know, convince yourself you don't have jet lag? Or is there actual is there actually something behind it? What did you find out? Yeah. And another reason why I kind of stuck with this is I traveled to Europe a lot to visit my family. And the sanity that you gain by not having a week of jet lag is so it's such a big difference that it's like important.

6:02But yeah, so I looked into this and like, is it an AI? Is it whatever? So first, I kind of did some digging. The founder is Dr. Stephen Lockley. And I looked at his Google Scholar page, and he is a very active researcher in sleep science and has done a lot of work. A lot of this app focuses on light and circadian rhythm, and he has a lot of like foundational work in that field. So this is not just like a guy who started a startup. Like he didn't just call himself doctor.

6:29Dr Niki: He's literally one of the foremost research scientists in the field. It seems like he's a huge deal. You know, I can't speak to his character. I just looked at his page. But and he initially developed this to assist astronauts on their flight to the ISS and help them synchronize with the crew's sleep schedule abroad. And now I will say that's a nice gimmick, like makes it nice to sell an app. But it looks like they're also still using this for NASA missions. So I feel like that's a pretty good confidence, you know. That's an even more complicated system to deal with because you're not just going to a new time zone.

7:05Dr Niki: You don't have a time zone anymore. You're just making up a time zone when you're outside of Earth. I mean, that's way more complicated than Japan. But basically, the main component of this app is just how much timed light exposure do you need to shift your circadian clock? so planning when you're going to see light like literally with your eyeballs whether that's the sun or artificial light uh specifically blue light or or if you've ever done light therapy just like really bright light into your face or avoid light so either be in the dark or like tom on dtns wear two pairs of sunglasses or use red light like in a dark room and also it can give you suggestions of when to add in caffeine to help you out or melatonin to slow you down so this is another thing about this app it's so simple it's yeah you just want interface i love that about an app it's it's beautiful also and extremely simple there's basically three things to keep track of caffeine which by the way if you can tell it like i don't use caffeine and it'll be like okay great then we won't give you the caffeine advice um caffeine sleep and light exposure and the melatonin comes in as part of this the sleep category yeah and you mentioned like when your flight takes off and you give it like the flight information and then how it'll calculate all that for you and when you need to do each step, basically.

8:24Dr Niki: The one criticism I will have of it is it doesn't yet do a good job taking into account reality. Like, you know, it's like knows when your flight is and it's like, great, start sleeping the minute you get on the flight. I'm like, that's not gonna happen. No one's gonna go to sleep. Like maybe a few people can get away with that. I have actually known a few people who've been able to get away with that, but most people won't. Or like, you got the mindset, you know, stay in the dark for the, this hour this morning. I'm like, no, that's the hour when I have to like walk my dog. Right. Yeah. Or you're driving to the airport.

8:59Dr Niki: So, um, they, they are very forgiving in the instructions of saying like, if you can't do exactly this, do as much as you can drive with your eyes closed. Yeah. Cause the more, yeah, I don't think they say that, but the, you know, if you're driving with sunglasses on, you're still safely driving, but you're at least limiting your exposure. So they understand that you won't be able to do as much, but the more you do, the better it gets. And it really does hinge on the light exposure. I can almost feel it when I'm going through it. Like, yeah, this is helping. Like stepping out into the sunlight really is helping.

9:34Dr Niki: Why is light so important for the circadian rhythm, which is what we're trying to change? Because your circadian rhythm tells your body like, oh, it's morning, oh, it's night. And you're trying to change that. Why does light change that? So this is also, once again, biology 101. So we teach this in the neuroscience class, so I am well-versed in it. Yay, I get to do my job on DTNS. So, okay, our eyeballs are light sensors for our brain. In the retina, we have certain cells that can detect light at a very specific wavelength, which is 480 nanometers on the light spectrum. Tom, what color is 480 nanometers, if you had to take a guess?

10:13Dr Niki: Blue? Blue? Yeah, it's blue. That's the whole blue light phone thing. I didn't know, but I guessed if blue is the one we have to try to avoid when we're in the dark, then that must be the blue one. That's a good educated guess. So these cells can detect basically blue wavelength. And these are the cells responsible for telling you whether it's day or night. And then they send this information to a central area of the brain. And this area will regulate time throughout the rest of the body. So in blind people, this doesn't work and they have difficulties with circadian rhythm. Yeah, that makes sense because they're not getting that signal.

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13:31Also, Sephora makes it super convenient with free shipping and same day delivery. Shop hair at Sephora and give your hair the upgrade it's been waiting for. So this small area that regulates your whole body is in the hypothalamus. That's important because the hypothalamus is kind of the regulator for a lot of things in the body. And it's called the super chiasmatic nucleus. But SCN for short. It's a cool name. It always makes me think of like Superman. Yeah.

13:57Dr Niki: I am super chiasmatic. It just means above the crossing of. Ah, okay. Yeah. But all of our cells also on top of this receive signals from certain genes that we're going to call clock genes. They have other names, but that's fine. And these all know that there is an internal clock, a length of our internal clock that is somewhere between 23 and 25 hours. So without seeing light, like if you're blind, you will have a circadian rhythm, but it actually will delay itself over time. And they've done tests with this where they just put people in a cave for like a year. And then they think that there's been less days elapsed than there have.

14:38And they basically think daytime is nighttime. So they have this cycle that continues 23, 25 hours, but it's not at the right daytime. And that's how the eyes help coordinate that. I was reading on the time shifter site itself that the difference can account for people being morning people or night people.

14:55Dr Niki: Because it's when your circadian rhythm resets, you know, affects whether you naturally like to get up or naturally like to stay up. Which one are you, by the way? I grew up being a night person, but somehow shifted to morning person. So I've been a morning person for the past 20 years now. Yeah, I've always been morning. I mean, you know, less when you're a teenager, but nowadays 6 a.m. is the, you know, plus I'm a bird watcher, so I got to be. Oh, yeah, you got to get up early then. With the worms and all that. Okay, but anyway, so we've got our rhythm. And the SCN is going to take this information from your eyes and from these genes and send the signal all throughout the rest of your body.

15:37And this is why it's important it's in the hypothalamus because that is where all of your hormones get dumped into the bloodstream and then tell everything else. And I mean literally almost every organ uses a circadian rhythm. So this includes things like core body temperature, right? This gets lower when you're asleep. Hunger, that's why you're hungry when you wake up. Alertness, being able to be awake in the morning or being sleepy and all kinds of other functions. Even your heart has its own circadian rhythm. And so without this kind of synchronization, all of your body functions might stay on this 24-hour cycle but be a little bit out of sync.

16:10And basically that's jet lag. so yeah basically your internal circadian rhythm doesn't match the external light cycle and then

16:19Dr Niki: all your organs get a bit confused and sleepy yeah yeah and that causes that makes a lot of sense especially because if you're let's say you're a person with a 23 hour cycle the scn the super chiasmatic nucleus nucleus is occasionally going like we need to reset your we need to move your minute hand a little you're a little off it's the leap year of the brain and then your heart and your lungs and all the rest of you is looking at all of that and saying, oh, it's time to relax, time to go to sleep, time to lower the body temperature, time to raise the body temperature. We talked about the fact that caffeine is part of what time shifter tells you to do or not to do.

16:59Dr Niki: In fact, I was surprised that it actually tells you like, no, keep taking caffeine, not in great amounts, but for maybe six or seven hours, you need to regularly be getting a little bit of caffeine. I imagine somebody's like, yeah, why not just do that? Why not wait? You get up in the morning when you're at the new time zone and you just chug some coffee. Why not do that? So biologically, coffee can keep you awake. And as you've drank coffee, you kind of know the feeling like you're awake, but you're not quite all the way there. And that's because it's not as helpful as light for regulating and shifting your circadian rhythm.

17:35It'll wake you up or it'll keep you from feeling sleepy, but it can't help really shift that.

17:40Dr Niki: The SCN isn't paying attention to your caffeine, is basically. No, not as much. And that's because caffeine works in a bit of a different way. It acts as a blocker. So you have a certain receptor in your brain cell synapses where once your cells get tired, they release a chemical called adenosine, and this builds up to a certain amount. And when it's at a certain amount, your body's like, oh, I'm sleepy, basically. caffeine blocks the cells from receiving that chemical so it still builds up it just doesn't go into the receptor because the caffeine's there instead so it just like closes the door on adenosine it's like you're not here and it's just like it's still accumulating but it's like not there right is that why you have a coffee crash because you have so much adenosine but yeah so the coffee eventually wears off and the adenosine then connects to all the receptor and and it's like bam, go to bed.

18:28Dr Niki: Yep. And so this works for a while, and like you said, after a while it crashes, and that's because caffeine has a half-life. It's a molecule, it degrades eventually. So the quote from the Time Shifter website is, if you have 100 milligrams of caffeine at 10 a.m., that's like two cups of coffee, you still maybe have 50 milligrams in your system at 3 p.m., 25 mils at 8 p.m., and maybe 12 at 10 p.m., which is enough to disrupt your sleep that night. So you can use it if you're trying to stay up later or so on. But, you know, eventually it does go away. So that's kind of the biology of coffee. And I think I said this on a live stream earlier this week.

19:07Dr Niki: Even if you're like the kind of person who's like, no, I can drink coffee and go right to sleep. The quality of your sleep won't be the same, even if you can sleep, right? Yeah, it depends on the person because people with, for example, a dopamine disorder actually aren't affected by this, but we don't know why. Like people with ADHD, caffeine actually does make them sleepy, but we don't know why. But we can't get into that right now. Yeah, but it's also unexpected behavior. So I guess what I'm trying to say is like, sure, maybe you drink coffee and can go right to sleep. And maybe you can do that on time shifter and it's fine.

19:42Dr Niki: You can try it and see, but it's probably going to affect you in some way. So what this is saying is like, if you really want to be sure that it's not affecting you, take it at this time, don't take it at this time. Time shifter is just trying to optimize everything you can do to help yourself. And it's not even doing anything. It's just saying like, here's what I recommend. Like do this, it might help. And here just lining, what do you call that expression? Like aligning all the stars? Yeah. The stars are in alignment, that kind of thing. Yeah. The other thing that I have used to help with jet lag, and it really has helped me because my doctor recommended it was melatonin.

20:21Dr Niki: And my doctor said, take it in the evening, when you're about to go to sleep for the first three days after you're in the new time zone. And it won't cure your jet lag, but it will help you reset your body's expectation because your body generates melatonin. Like how does that track with what they're saying, what the science says here? So similarly to caffeine, it's not as helpful as light, but melatonin is a hormone. So it can act on the SCN. And basically your body would normally, when you're getting sleepy, dump out a bunch of melatonin into your bloodstream. And then it basically lets your brain know to start going to sleep.

20:59If you take it a bit earlier than you usually would, you're just faking that response, basically. And the same if you take it a bit later. Like your body already put some out and now you're adding a bit more to make you sleepy later. so you're supplementing your body's own production and helping to recalibrate this clock which is which is helpful i will make a note that long-term melatonin use has not been studied so just be

21:22Dr Niki: careful with that yeah that that's a good point um i my doctor never said keep taking it uh if if we were talking about like i'm having trouble sleeping she recommended something else she didn't she didn't say take melatonin for that she was like melatonin's good for three days on a trip But because we don't know, you know, what's after that. But but for a small amount of use, she felt it was safe. And I didn't realize that actually the SCN sees that as a signal of like, oh, melatonin is in the system. So, yeah. OK, so you have this app that was developed by somebody who has studied and even helped shape the science around this and is saying, here's here's when you should get light.

22:06Dr Niki: Here's when you should avoid light. Here's when the light should be bright. Here's when you can have caffeine and probably should have caffeine. Here's when you need to stop. Melatonin right before you go to bed so that it mimics the natural body release that you would have if you were normally sleepy. I know all of that, and I'm still surprised how well this worked. Why does this work so well? This episode is brought to you by Capital One. Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi-agentic AI. They already deployed one. It's called Chat Concierge and it's simplifying car shopping.

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23:20When your time to lead arrives, you need a vehicle that rises to meet it. The Range Rover Sport. Exclusive offers available now. Explore further at RangeRover.com. I think the reason it works so well is because it's based on really well studied patterns. We know a lot about sleep and we've been studying sleep for decades and we know how the circadian rhythm works really, really well. I mean, we've known this since like before, maybe the 20s. And so just like taking all that, making it into a formula that again is generic for the general population. There's only so much you can do. And also making it so simple for you to follow.

23:56Like I get, yes, you can't follow every instruction, but it just sends you a little alert that's like, hey put some sunglasses on and it it also relieves this kind of um mental burden also like i don't have to think about this this is going to help me you know with my jet lag and so it takes that hard science and makes it really digestible and really easy to follow and basically eases you into that shift um also i don't know if you mentioned this it makes you start a few days before your flight yes um and it'll you'll go to bed an hour earlier two days before and then two hours earlier. And that's also that kind of gradual shift is really helpful for your brain.

24:31Your brain's way better at gradual shifts than very quick shifts, which give you jet lag.

24:36Dr Niki: Yeah. I think I focused the most on the light because I read that that was the most important and I could feel that it was the most important. But I did try to shift the awake times. In fact, the day of my departure, my departure was like at 4 p.m. in the afternoon on the way back from Japan. It told me to get up at 4 a.m. And I was like, I don't know, buddy. Like, is this for real, for real? It's like, get up at 4 a.m. and see bright light. And I'm like, how am I going to do that? How am I going to get, first of all, do I want to get up at 4 a.m.? And then I looked at And I'm like, well, it's having me sleep twice because I'm flying, you know, for 12 hours.

25:22Dr Niki: So I'm getting up at 4 a.m. Then I'm sleeping on the plane and then I'm sleeping that night. So I'm like, all right, this might help me sleep on the plane. Seeing the bright light at 4 a.m. when the sun wasn't up and also when you have a wife that isn't doing this and doesn't want to be woken up. That was tricky. I ended up going into the bathroom, closing the door, and it had a really bright overhead light. So I did that until the sun came up. Then I went like a crazy person and hid behind the blackout curtains on the other side of the window so that I was getting the full sunlight on me. But it wasn't going into the rest of the room.

26:04Dr Niki: And I felt silly. I felt ridiculous, especially when I'm sitting in the bathroom. just, you know, like I'm not sitting on the toilet, but, but still I pulled a chair in there. I'm like, I'm hiding in the bathroom. I'm hiding behind the curtains. I, I came back at 11 AM yesterday. And right now I don't feel like I have jet lag at all. And it's such a good feeling. Yeah. It's such a good feeling. I have like given my life over to the app. Like even sometimes if I'm doing a good two, three hour shift, if I'm just doing it, us time zones, I'll do it because I get so affected by bad sleep and it's usually for work and I need to get up in the morning and like give a talk or something and i'll be like yeah i'll go to bed you know two hours early the night before and and it it really helped has helped me and i know we're doing so much free advertisement for this app but yeah we're not being paid by them at all it's very simple and logical and yeah we could do it on paper on our own but like the app just tells you what to do and it's also free so like yeah you you could probably get some kind of large language model to simulate something like this and it probably would come close this is more electricity though done.

27:07Dr Niki: Well, there's that too, right? This is done by the science and it makes it easy. I think that that makes it worth paying for. It's like, I'm going to tell you when I'm leaving, when I normally sleep, whether I drink coffee or not, whether I'm cool taking melatonin or not, and then you're going to make a graph and it's just going to tell you like, during these times, do this during these times, don't do this. There are times when it doesn't matter what you do, you know, and you can, you're free to do whatever you want. And it will also give you close-ups on that. So like when you can look at the whole day or even the whole trip, or you can go zoom in on like what's happening right now.

27:45Dr Niki: But yeah, the notifications are the best. It's like in 15 minutes, stop drinking, stop taking caffeine, which is a big reminder for me because I will not necessarily drink coffee in the afternoon, but I might have chocolate or something like that. Oh, good point. Yeah. I also saw, and I don't know, I haven't tried this, but I saw that they have a patent while I was going through the publications for is they have a patent to make the notification show up on your smartwatch. I don't know if it's in place yet. Um, but, uh, you get that little notification like on the watch face. Yeah, no, I got a, I got a, uh, a watch notification on Apple watch, but didn't that just the, I don't know if that's the patent.

28:17Dr Niki: I think you might be able to install like the app into your watch somehow. Well, I don't know if I'm like blowing their cover, but it's a, it's a public patent. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the patent for the watch face specifically. So I don't know. I see. It's probably for the display. Yeah. Cause a patent, a patent wouldn't be necessary to just push notifications. That's a function of, uh, of the operating system, but in the way it's patents. Yeah. Yeah. In the way it displays them, they might have a patent on the way you can display the graph, uh, on your smartwatch. I think it was something like that.

28:46I'm going to Europe in a month and I will a hundred percent be using this and not have to think about anything. I'm going to a marriage, a wedding right after and I won't hopefully won't be jetlighted yeah uh the other thing to note is

28:59Dr Niki: like when you're doing the bright light as I mentioned earlier it didn't have to be the sun it just has to be bright light sun's better but any bright light helps it's that blue wavelength really and when you're trying to be in the dark like this morning so this morning on my recovery day because it's a few days before a few days after uh it said don't look at the light from 6 a.m. Get up, get up at 6 a.m., but don't look at the light. Then at 7 a.m. you need bright light. And I'm like, OK, at this point, I trust this thing. It sounds crazy. Whatever you say. So at 6 a.m. from 6 to 630, I was just in the bed in the dark, you know, doing OK, listening to an audio book.

29:38Dr Niki: Then at 630, I had to take the dog out because the dog isn't using time shifter. And so I'm like outside with my sunglasses on and like trying to be in the bushes where it's dark. And like, it helps. It still helps. Even if you can't be 100 % dark, making the effort to like, just, just wear some wraparound sunglasses. I think you think about it biologically, you're just reducing that stimulus input into those receptors in your right, right. And it's telling you like, Oh, yeah, this is weaker light. So it must not be the middle of the day. And, and I think I mentioned this earlier, but during the during the middle of the day, I started to feel a little like, yeah, I'm a little tired.

30:17Dr Niki: I just walked outside into the bright sunlight and it kind of revived me. It like, don't stare directly at the sun. I didn't stare directly at the sun. You're right. Good point. And this is funny because it'll, it'll encourage you to like, look at the bright blue light from your phone, which we usually don't hear. When you need the light. Yeah. You want to look at that light. And then put like a filter on it in the evening. And that's another way to get the bright light if you don't, if you don't have the sun out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's also, you have to remember, like, if you have glasses that filter out blue light normally to help you, you need to take those off when you're doing when you need the bright light, because this isn't about your skin.

30:55Dr Niki: This is about your eyes getting the light, as Dr. Nikki explained to us. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's five stars from both of us. Five. I think so, too. Blue lights. The fact that I'm not sitting here going like, Nikki, I don't know my own name. I just got back from that long flight. Like, that should be testament. enough. Again, the app, if you haven't heard us say it a million times, it's called Time Shifter. It's available in the App Store. You can go check it out and see what you think of it. Before we get out of here, though, if you haven't listened to Dr. Nikki's latest new podcast with Wen-Tui Dao, you need to do it now.

31:31Yeah, we may not cure your jet lag, but we'll do something for your brain, whether you love it or you hate it. We have a new show coming out, or it's out now. it's by women in STEM it's for everyone we talk about stuff that we love about science and technology and stuff that's silly and girly and fun and so just go have a listen it's Technical Tea it's find us on technicaltea.show we're going to do a show a month we'll take listener feedback we're really excited you could tell

32:02Dr Niki: these two have been so excited in planning this and trying to make sure it works well and just having fun talking about the topics and you're both super smart in technology and science, which comes through as well. So people definitely need to check it out. It's called Technical Tea. Technical Tea. And Tom's our executive barista. This is what we've named you. I didn't know that either. Yeah, we were like, what is Tom? And we just came up with a name. So that's a little spoiler for you guys. Anytime you need coffee, I'm there. Or tea. Yeah. Oh, I guess it would be tea, duh. Yeah, tea barista. Yeah, I am the barista that brews your tea anytime you want.

32:43Dr Niki: Let me know. Well, thank you, Dr. Nikki, as always, very much for the recommendation of Time Shifter and for helping us understand this as well. Appreciate it. Thank you, everybody, for supporting the show at patreon.com slash DTNS. We'll be back with regular newest episodes on Monday. Until then, have a great weekend. Talk to you soon.

33:15The DTNS family of podcasts. Helping each other understand.

33:21Dr Niki: Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

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34:37Thank you.