How Should the US respond to China’s Latest AI Success - DTNS 5313

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2:36This is the Daily Tech News for Monday, July 20th, 2026. We tell you what you need to know, give you some important context and try to help each other understand.

2:44Robb Dunewood: Today, Kimmy is being treated like DeepSeek 2.0 and Hugging Face says the U.S. needs to think differently about security. Everybody named Kim out there is like me. I did. I didn't do it. I'm Tom Merritt. And I'm Rob Dunwoody. Let's start with what you need to know with the big story.

3:03So Thursday, China's Moonshot AI released its Kimi K3 model, billed as a competitor to U.S. Foundation models when Jason mentioned it on Friday's show. And if you follow this sort of then it's worth noting that it is a 2.8 trillion parameter model, which is a bigger number than any of the other published parameter numbers, though, for example, OpenAI and Anthropic no longer make the parameters of their flagship models public. However, Moonshot said that Kimmy should outperform pretty much everything out there except for Claude Fable 5 and GPT 5.6. So why are we talking about it again today. It received so much interest that 48 hours after it launched sometime on Saturday, the company paused new subscriptions and they're slowly doling out open slots for new customers.

3:56Someone from the company wrote on X, our GPUs are feeling it. Kimi also split its plans in two. It now has a Kimi membership that gets you the web app and the work products, and then a Kimi code membership that takes the more token intensive stuff from coders and puts it in a different plan. Now, here's another little quirk of Kimi. It doesn't plan to release its open weights until July 27th, meaning the only way to use it is to pay Moonshot for now. You can't just download it and use it yourself like you could with other open weight models until July 27th, that is. However, even when the open weights come, you're gonna need some equipment.

4:34So companies might be able to do this But if you don't run at least the equivalent of eight H100 or H200 chips from NVIDIA in your house, you're not doing it at home. This is something for people to probably do in a data center. Then Sunday, Alibaba released a preview version of its flagship, QEN 3.8. And Alibaba says only Fable 5 is better than QEN 3.8. It also is going to make QEN open weight, at least sometime soon. And that would be a change from earlier this year when Alibaba stopped releasing open weights for its models. Now, this follows what Huan and Jason talked about on Friday with the president Xi Jinping of China saying we should be more open with our models.

5:17And I guess Alibaba said, got the order, boss. Going to do that. Bloomberg has grouped the reaction to this model, Kimi, into three camps. Fear, the obvious one, China is catching the U.S. We need to do something, crowd. Defense, which is a crowd of people saying, this doesn't mean what you think it means. It's a big jump from a piece of tech to a competitive product. And we saw that with DeepSeek, where there was a lot of attention to it when it first launched. And it's still a decent product, but it didn't overtake all the big foundational models, as some people thought it would. And then there's the optimists.

5:56The more competition is good crowd. In fact, Gavin Baker took this position, saying that lower margins on these kind of models benefit chip companies because they can get more out of their chips, benefit hyperscalers, and benefit software developers alike. It's the rising tide lifts all boats theory. Axios reports that the U.S. government is clearly in the fear category right now and is considering placing some Chinese models on the entity list. that would at the very least require companies to guarantee security of any models that they wanted to use, specifically these open-weight Chinese models.

6:33However, recent White House advisor David Sachs wrote on X, we're at a critical inflection point in AI policy. The leading closed labs, already a duopoly in terms of AI model revenue, want the government to eliminate their open-source competition. So Sachs has been warning against regulatory capture and saying that encouraging more closed models is not the way to go. You're just going to have the U.S. fall further behind. I've seen a lot of people making that same argument is that, you know, if you just try to wall yourself off, you're not being competitive. Now, there's a security question to these that we'll get to a little later in the show when we talk about what happened at Hugging Face.

7:13But before we do that, let's talk a little bit about what we think the reaction should be to Deep Seek part two, the moonshotting, as I am calling it, Rob.

7:23Robb Dunewood: Well, it's always interesting to me when this kind of stuff comes out, because you really do have those three reactions. I think the reaction in the middle is probably the best one. I do want to note, though, that this is very different than Deep Seek. Deep Seek, you could run it on a PC. You could have hardware in your house that you could run this thing on. There's probably some people with some houses that have hardware that can run this. But my gut would tell me that those rooms are quite warm unless they are very well cooled and they probably draw a lot of power because these things need to run on server class, you know, you know, chips and processors.

7:58Robb Dunewood: So the other thing that is interesting is that with DeepSeek, when it came out, it came out with, you know, with with Kimmy. It's like it's coming out. We're going to we're going to wait a week and a half before we actually release the open wait stuff because we want to we want to drive subscription. And, you know, it was it was a madhouse last week. They had to slow people down and they want more and more people to sign up to this because that ultimately generates revenue for them. So it'll be interesting to see here over the next week. I think the 27th is a week from today. You know, just how many more accounts they are able to get signed up and actively are able to use this to use this new model.

8:35Yeah, it's worth noting that Moonshot is seeking an IPO on the Hong Kong stock exchange. So they have a vested interest in driving up that revenue number if they're going to issue some stock. I thought Ben Thompson's Stratechery column, as it usually is, was very good on this, saying, don't overreact to this. It's not the kind of thing that's going to bring down OpenAI and Anthropic. And he made a lot of good cases in there, among them the fact that you are usually going to continue to use the thing you started using. And so as with any new product, getting people to change, even if you arguably have a better product, is hard.

9:16And OpenAI and Anthropic have a lot of people already using their stuff. So the sky is not falling yet. But I think what he rightly points out is this is China-based models getting better, getting closer. And that is something we should pay attention to. It could also be a very good thing in an open marketplace. It can drive competition. And so I'm kind of in the camp of David Sachs saying, you know, the reaction shouldn't be close off more. The reaction should be embrace the competition and outcompete them. We have the better models in the United States right now, I think Sachs would be saying.

9:53So don't act as if you don't. Don't, you know, you can outcompete them. And it is interesting that, you know, these more successful companies have closed them off. But that is also typical when companies get more successful, they tend to close off. I don't know about you, Rob. This reminds me a lot about the debates around Linux back in the day where Microsoft was kind of losing their heads and saying Linux was evil and all of that. And it turned out that it wasn't. And in fact, you could build a great business on the back of Linux, which Microsoft has started to do in the past several years.

10:28Robb Dunewood: Not only that, it's competition is generally good. You don't want the big company that is number one to just sit on their laurels because they're number one. We want you to get better. And they're telling you it's better than everything except for what OpenAI has or what, you know, or what Anthropic has. Or it's better than everything except for what OpenAI has. Or, you know, like, you know, this is what these companies are telling you. So it is a good thing to be pushed because, you know, it's interesting to think we have only been talking about AI in the way that we're talking about it right now for less than four years.

11:06Robb Dunewood: It's not even, you know, the AI boom is not even we're not even four years into it. I think we have to get to October, November before we're even four years into it. And if you just look at the advances that we've had with American companies, it only makes sense that other countries that are doing similar things would have similar types of advances. It's like there's really, really smart people in other places that are not the United States and are also trying to figure this stuff out. So it only makes sense that competition generally is a good thing because you are going to get to a better product.

11:37Robb Dunewood: If you are number one, if you want to stay there, you've got to come out with some better stuff. There is that, you know, there is a thought, though, that this is an arms race. And, you know, I don't want to dismiss that. I think this is, you know, it is an arms race. It's like, you know, who you know, who can be at the top of the mountain? And these Chinese models are absolutely trying to get there. Don't think they are there yet. They themselves are saying that they aren't, but they are trying. They're saying we're better than most of the stuff, just not the number one or the number two thing.

12:03Robb Dunewood: So I think that competition in this way is a good thing. It's going to be interesting to see how, from a political standpoint, we actually react to it. Yeah, it shouldn't be shocking when you prevent some of the brightest Chinese minds from coming to the United States to work for companies, that they go work for Chinese companies and they make very good models. A lot of what they're doing is still distillation. And I don't say that as an insult. It's just a thing that even the foundation models are doing for their thinking machines right now. But distillation is something you do on the back of the training that was already done.

12:36And so we have yet to see the company that says, oh, we have actually trained these. Now, we will see that. We will see a very capable model come out of China and we'll see this whole thing that I'll call Deep Seek Part 3 when that happens come about again. I think the story here isn't, oh, no, Moonshot has devastated the USAI lead. It's, hey, here's another milestone for the Chinese AI scene. And here is a potential open weight model when it comes out next week that you as a company might consider running on your own machine. Maybe you even want to pay to run things in the cloud on Moonshot and run Kimi K2 remotely yourself.

13:21I'll leave that to your own decision on how much you trust your data over there. But I think a lot of people reasonably make that decision.

13:28Robb Dunewood: Absolutely. It's like, you know, competition is a good thing for everyone. It helps the actual companies using this stuff make a decision. Do we need to use Fable? Maybe not. Maybe we can use something a little less powerful, you know, powerful, but a little bit less. and run it on our own stuff. Does the cost savings benefit us in a way that not using the more expensive model? These are generally good things for business. It kind of keeps everybody on their toes. Yeah. We have another story coming in just a minute here that is going to shed some light on those kinds of build or buy, run local or run in the cloud decisions.

14:02Robb Dunewood: Yeah. So DTNS is made possible by you, the listener. So thanks to Alice Nichols, Simon Daniel Jerk, Johnny Hernandez and High Tech Okie.

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17:01All right, there is more we need to know today. Let's get right into the briefs.

17:03Robb Dunewood: So as we mentioned earlier, Hugging Face said that his production infrastructure was breached by an autonomous agent early last week. The attacker, quote, abused two code execution paths in our data set processing, a remote code data set loader and a template injection in a data set configuration to run code on a processing worker and then escalated to no level access, harvested cloud and cluster credentials and moved laterally into several internal clusters over a weekend. End quote. Hugging Face said the U.S. Frontier Model Guard Rail slowed down the response as they could not distinguish an incident responder from an attacker.

17:37Robb Dunewood: They kept submitting logs of attacker commands and then Frontier Model Guardrails kept blocking them. In an incident report, Hugging Face's team used China-based Z.AI Labs GLM 5.2 model to analyze the logs and footprints of the attackers that helped them close the paths, evict the attacker and revoke effective credentials. They don't yet know which model powered the attack. Hugging Face wrote, the attacker was bound by no-users policy while our own forensic work was blocked by guardrails of the hosted models we first tried. Hugging Face says that security responders should have a capable model you can run on your own infrastructure, vetted and ready before an incident, both to avoid guardrail lockout and to keep attacker data and credentials from leaving your environment.

18:17Yeah, so there's a lot of stuff in there for security professionals, if you know, you know. The short version is they got attacked and the way they figured it out was to fight fire with fire. However, they couldn't use the best models because the guardrails kept saying, I don't know. It looks like you're trying to do something that is not allowed. So we're not going to let you help. and Hugging Face was forced to download what used to be called JIPU, ZAI's model, to run locally so that no one could force them to not be able to use it to track down the attacker. They were able to use it. They got the attacker and they have now fixed the incident.

19:01It is a good news story in the end, but Rob, it is not lost on me that Hugging Face is out there saying, hey, U.S., with your security issues, stopping us from fighting security issues does not make us more secure. And I guess if maybe Hugging Face was on the list of people who are allowed to use the un-guard railed models, it wouldn't be a problem for them, but they're not.

19:25Robb Dunewood: They're not on the list. And this is kind of a big deal because, hey, we're getting hacked. We're trying to figure the hack out and we're being hacked with AI. The most effective way for us to do it is to use these models, but we can't because we keep getting rate limited because there's a lot that's happening right now. So that's an interesting conversation. I wonder what is going to stem from the conversation because somebody has to say, yeah, this is probably an unintended consequence. We should let these types of companies use these tools to figure this stuff out in this kind of way. So I just wonder what is going to become of that because I don't think that this is what we were thinking of when we're going to rate limit some of this stuff.

20:04Robb Dunewood: It's like, No, we need to allow them to go figure out who's actively hacking them in real time. Yeah. I mean, the guard, the way the guardrails worked, if anybody's still trying to wrap their head around it, is you put in some code and say, look, an attacker is trying to use this, is doing this sort of thing. Here's the logs. And what's happening is, let's say it's Fable. I don't know if it's Fable, or let's say it's Claude something says, ooh, you know, this could be used to find vulnerabilities by a malicious attacker. So I can't comment on that. Right? It's just refusing to answer. And Hugging Face is like, yeah, that doesn't help us.

20:43We know we're not the attacker. And it is another example of where openness is better. It is riskier, but it is better. And it has downsides when you're not open. Not letting everyone have access to the best model delayed Hugging Face's response. Now, granted, Hugging Face did find a way to respond and everything's fine now. They stopped the attack. However, I don't know that the United States government likes the solution they came up with, which is to use an open weights model from China. once again showing that, hey, you know, having this open marketplace with all these open weight models is a good thing for Hugging Face in this case.

21:25I think a better thing would have been to have a situation where they were allowed to use the tool that they were paying for. They didn't say whether it was Claude or OpenAI or something else, but I think they would have preferred to use their main tool rather than having to go find something in a panic and install it locally. Although I will say installing something locally is a whole lot more secure. I suppose it could have a backdoor or something like that, but it's a lot more secure than doing something in the cloud.

21:51Robb Dunewood: Yeah, there's two parts to this. They need a hotline. Hey, this is happening to us. We can't use the tool that we want to use in order to figure this out. So the only thing we can do is go use something else. That's thing number one. Thing number two is that when you use the thing number else or the something else, when you use the something else and it does what you need it to do, there's a level of reciprocity there. It's like, hey, this actually worked. should we just not even worry about table any longer i don't say should we not even worry about this vendor any longer and let's just use this because it works for us in every instance where we needed it to work for us uh reciprocity is a strong strong sentiment so that's something i i don't think that hugging face is any less likely to use what they just used to get uh you know an enormous problem and not necessarily solved but at least able to figure out what is going on that doesn't make them feel worse about that second tier vendor.

22:44Now, I don't know this for sure, but it smells a little like when you restrict the tools to stop the bad guys, only the bad guys get to use the tools. I'm not saying that the attacker in this situation was using a jailbroken tool or something. They probably weren't, but it does feel a little bit like that. We're like, oh, well, the attacker wasn't restricted, but the defender was, and that's not the way you want it to work.

23:08Robb Dunewood: Absolutely not. Yeah. Well, Bloomberg's Mark Gurman has his weekly newsletter, as he does every week, noting something from Apple that Gurman's sources are telling him is happening. And this time, one of them is testing something called Live Notes at the Apple Store Genius Bar. The idea is that if the employee of Apple and you, the customer, both agree, so it's opt-in on both ends, the system can record a transcript of your conversation and add it to the repair notes on the worker's iPad. The idea is to save time so that the employee can focus on talking to you and identifying your problem rather than saying, well, hold on, let me write that down.

23:50Let me take a note. And maybe that note doesn't end up being as clear as it should have been. you just have the whole conversation in there and be able to search it. Rob, what do you think?

23:58Robb Dunewood: I'm not bothered by this at all because it saves time. I mean, I have worked in help desk situations before and a lot of what you do is listening to what the person just told you and then you look away and you start typing, trying to remember exactly what they said word for word and hoping that you get it right. Because the thing is that, you know, if there's just one little word that changes, you're not necessarily one that's going to do the ultimate fixing. You've got to push that to somebody else. So now there's a little bit lost in translation. Whereas if you're just recording the conversation and that's being transcribed, it's going to be a lot closer to the conversation that you actually had.

24:34Robb Dunewood: There still will be things lost in translation, but it's, I am, as I said, I'm not mad at this just because it is double opt-in. Both parties have to agree that this is what they want to do. Yeah. And honestly, I've been on the other end where I'm looking at someone's notes going, I'm not sure what they meant by this. So having a whole transcript would be good in that situation as well. Absolutely. Google has started sending out emails to let people know that starting in 45 days, your Android backup files will count against your Google account storage limit, whatever that may be. That includes SMS, call history, device settings, and app settings.

25:10Robb Dunewood: Google is also introducing more specific backup controls so you can choose which types of apps and data are backed up. After the change, if you're over the limit, Your Android backups will be paused until you add more storage or delete some stuff. I got this email. I didn't have a whole lot of extra data added because of my app settings and my device settings because photos were already added to your account storage limit. And that's the bulk of what's on any of my phones, honestly. So it didn't trip off any alarm spells. But I'm also curious why Google needs to do this. Is this a result of them needing to maximize the data centers for Gemini so much that over the vast number of people that they have, it makes a difference to dissuade this?

25:57Robb Dunewood: This one is really interesting because the, you know, the Android backup is not nearly as big as the two and a half hour wedding you recorded at 8K on your iPhone. You know, that you then upload it to Google Photos and it's taking up literally 60 gigs inside of your, you know, inside of your 100 gigabyte, you know, upgraded account. So that's kind of weird. The backups aren't, I mean, they're not small, but they aren't huge. But I guess when you're only dealing with 15 gigs, every little bit, on the low end at least, every little bit, I guess, counts. So maybe that's the reason. Yeah. And backups, man, for your phone are essential, especially when you're dealing with moving a phone or anything.

26:41But especially if something happens to your phone, being able to have it backed up is essential. So I feel like there's a better way for all the companies to do this.

26:51Robb Dunewood: You know, I just thought of something. So this past week, I literally was with someone who was having a problem with their Android phone. And the reason is because they do not use Gmail as their primary account. They don't they never go and check their storage on their Gmail account. So it wasn't until, you know, they're using another email. So it wasn't until I figured out that, wait a minute, you've you're like 15.6 gigs. They're over there, 15 gigs, but they weren't getting any notifications or anything. They just didn't pay attention to the Gmail stuff, even though they are using an Android device.

27:23Robb Dunewood: This could be one of those ways to where there's a lot of people who are probably out there like that. And if you can't do a backup, something that people generally care about, this gives Google a way to potentially notify you, hey, would you like to upgrade your storage? You aren't doing backups right now. So maybe that's the reason. It's a way to backdoor people into upgrading their storage when they never paid attention to it before, but because they didn't care about Gmail or photos, but they do care about their Android device actively being backed up. Or even that they just have had bad storage maintenance.

27:53Like that user was like just letting Gmail's pile up without even knowing it, right? I'm not saying it was malicious, but it's a way for Google to say like, hey, we don't need a bunch of zombie Gmail accounts littering our servers out there. Maybe we can reduce that. Right. Hey, new patron perks are here. We got new benefits, including exclusive ways to find out what's going on behind the scenes. Tomorrow, we are going to do our first producer's room for the new producer's room level. Rob's going to be there. Amos is going to be there. I think Victor, our editor on this episode, is going to be there.

28:25And we're going to talk about how we do the show. Just one example of the kinds of things we're bringing to Patreon. And from now until July 31st, if you use the code experiment, you get 26 % off your first pledge. 26 % for 2026. Check it out. New tiers. Patreon.com slash DTNS.

29:01Robb Dunewood: Paylocity built a single platform to connect HR, finance, and IT with AI-driven insights and automated workflows that simplify the complex and power what's next. Because when everything comes together in one place, growth comes easy. Experience one place for all your HCM needs. Start now at paylocity.com slash one. Still waiting in line? Again? That's time you'll never get back. Save time and money with stamps.com. Over 4 million businesses have skipped the line with Stamps.com. Join them to save up to 90 % off carrier rates from your computer or phone right now. Print postage for certified mail, registered mail, and packages in seconds.

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29:55All right, let's get to these quick headlines. Just make you look smart. Know this stuff. Check it out.

30:00Robb Dunewood: The European Commission fined AliExpress 550 million euros under the Digital Services Act for failing to prevent the sale of illegal products on its platform, including counterfeits and those that did not meet European safety standards. 550, that's a record. Hey, you're number one, AliExpress. Congrats. A valve engineer told Bloomberg that component prices for its steam machines are quote unquote getting worse and that the current retail price that you see for stuff on the shelves lags the price of bulk supply by three to six months. So a lot of people are like, the price increase coming to the Steam machine.

30:36Robb Dunewood: Those things are going to be expensive. AMD is about to ship its first rack scale system for foundation models called Helios with Microsoft, OpenAI, Meta, and Oracle among the customers purchasing the chips. And the information reports that Google is developing a new server chip to run Gemini models called Frozen V2, which can serve six to 10 times more tokens per unit of power. Ooh, I like power efficiency. Bring me more of that. European Parliament is testing a system called EP Gen AI Hub that gives access to locally operated models from Meta's Lama, OpenAI's GPT OSS and Mistral Small, as well as externally hosted versions of ChatGPT and Claude Sonnet.

31:14The idea is like we don't want people pasting sensitive parliamentary information into the public versions of ChatGPT and Claude. Let's make our own system. Good idea.

31:26Robb Dunewood: China will tax lithium ion and solar batteries for the first time since 2015 in an attempt to combat overcapacity and price wars. Well, it's going to drive up EVV battery prices, at least for ones made with Chinese batteries. India's first privately developed rocket, the Vikram 1 from Skyroot Aerospace, completed its first successful flight on Saturday, launching from the Bay of Bengal into a 280 mile high orbit where it released several satellites. Usually these commercial flights aren't expected to succeed the first time. This one did. They only wanted it to go 100 meters, I think, into the sky.

32:02It went 400 some meters. And it released the satellites, which they probably expected to be destroyed when the whole thing went bad. So well done, Vikram 1.

32:10Robb Dunewood: Congrats. Pretty cool. The U.S. Department of Justice announced that federal employees may now download and install TikTok on government devices, as it no longer poses a security risk now that it's run by TikTok U.S. data security joint venture. This is interesting because we haven't really talked about TikTok since they built the joint venture, but this is the result of what comes from it. Yeah, yeah. The Samsung display has begun shipping tandem OLED panels for laptops that can reach 1600 nits of peak brightness. That's about 40 % more than your conventional single layer limit of 1100 nits. And because you have the two layers and you don't have to have all of them on all the time, it carries twice the lifespan of the single layer variety.

32:49Lenovo's Yoga Pro 9i is going to be the first product with the new dual tandem OLED panels from Samsung.

32:57Robb Dunewood: TSMC says due to its expectation of a multi-year increased demand, it will add$100 billion to its Arizona factory expansion. TSMC currently produces four nanometer chips in Arizona with three nanometer production coming in 2027 and two nanometer production in 2029. 29. Yeah, I kind of feel like that means TSMC thinks this is going to stick around. This boom is going to stick around. And they're a good one to watch for that. Finally, Match Group and the Kinsey Institute report that 26 % of all U.S. adults and 49 % in Gen Z have used LLMs to help them select photos, write bios, and compose messages for dating apps, a practice being called chat fishing by some.

33:42Robb Dunewood: I'm so glad I'm married, Tom. I'm glad I am married as well. I'm also glad you're married, but yes, I'm glad I'm not having to do this. What folks have to go through these days to just find a date is incredible. But folks, we end every episode of DTNS with some shared perspectives. And today, Andrew has some thoughts on blood pressure rings that we talked about last week. Yeah, Andrew wrote, I celebrated a decade on hypertension meds a few years ago, not long after turning 40. I am good at taking my meds, but horrible at remembering to take my blood pressure at the right time. So a continuous monitor for blood pressure instead of just heart rate sounds like a dream come true.

34:20Blood pressure spikes after doing things like eating or showering that don't necessarily cause your heart rate to jump. So the additional signal would be truly beneficial. Additionally, some of us also have white coat hypertension when we see the doctor where we're always elevated due to the stress of needing our blood pressure to be low for the doctor a real catch-22 i think that bit in particular causes me to rethink seeing the doctor sometimes all that said i probably won't pre-order this unless they make some noise about it being much pricier post-launch i want to see the reviews that it actually works and is calibrated correctly i hope this gets us to a world where the doctor can just look at my data and not need to get their own reading it will make those visits much more bearable this is kind of

35:03Robb Dunewood: cool. I think I would be in the market for one. Now, I, I, there was a time when I actually had high blood pressure. It's like 60, 70 pounds ago before the pandemic. Um, white coat, uh, you know, syndrome is a real thing because even though I no longer have high blood pressure, I always have it the first time they check it in the doctor's office. I always have to get the average so I can literally sit there and calm down because I'm so concerned about it. I don't want to be in the, you know, in the, in the pre high or back in the high range. So it's just something that you think about. So this would be cool if you could just have it just tracked all the time because you're wearing a ring.

35:38Robb Dunewood: I think that's cool. Yeah. I have what's called driving to your doctor in LA hypertension, where they have to take it the second time after I've calmed down from the trip.

35:50Robb Dunewood: Well, folks, we want to know what you're thinking about. So if you've got some insights into a story, please, please, please share it with us at feedback at dailytechnewsshow.com. Big thanks to Andrew for contributing to today's show. Thank you for being along for Daily Tech news show you're the folks who keep us in business use that code experiment get 26 off patreon.com slash dtns

36:21Robb Dunewood: the dtns family of podcasts helping each other understand diamond club hopes you have enjoyed this broker.

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