Is Apple's Product Line Too Confusing? - DTNS Live 5351

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2:56This is the Daily Tech News Show Big Tech Question Edition, where we look at the tech news this week and ask what it means. I'm your referee, Tom Merritt, and this week the big tech questions are, is Apple's product lineup too confusing? Do we need new game consoles or can we just live without them? And what do we want done about these recursive self-learning AI models that don't do what we want? Joining us here to draw the top tech news of this week is Len Peralta. Thank you, Len Peralta. We'll be checking in with him at the end of the show. But first, today's tech news with me and Sarah Lang.

3:35based on a series of leaks lenovo's upcoming google book 15 may feature an intel core ultra 5 processor up to 32 gigs of ram 512 gigs of storage and a 15.3 inch 120 hertz oled touchscreen it may also have google facial authentication it is unclear whether that means dedicated Face ID style hardware or a simple camera-based system. Pricing hasn't been leaked yet, but comparable Lenovo hardware sits around$1 ,500. So, you know, we might be in that realm. The Google Book event is next Tuesday, September 15th, and Android faithful's Ron Richards will be there. Yes, and hopefully he'll talk to us about it.

4:24Anthropic published a report called detecting and countering misuse of ai september 2026 they have done this before in march august and november of 2025 but it's been a while uh anthropics said it was reporting on what it calls the most notable and novel threat activity meaning these aren't typical this isn't what you see the most often these are just the crazier ones among the case studies are russian espionage an unnamed group linked to iran attempting to target u.s navy ships using claude an attempt to track ethnic minorities in western china an attempt to amplify bots against journalists from that ethnic minority developing dossiers on religious figures in asia not just christian figures buddhist figures too attempts by threat actors in northern yemen to design ballistic missiles biological research on avian influenza that is the kind of thing that could be weaponized because its gain of function.

5:22This is getting widely talked about as bioweapons research. The research could eventually be used for bioweapons. The scientists doing it were not trying to develop a bioweapon. That one's easy to misunderstand. There's also attempts to distill clod to feed models like Moonshot and DeepSeek. Anthropic in this report discusses how it countered the misuse in each case and what it's doing to help prevent misuse in the future. Bloomberg sources say OpenAI CEO Sam Altman told employees the company could slow AI development in coordination with other labs amidst concerns about advanced model safety.

6:01This comes after reports of AI systems escaping human control, OpenAI's August development pause to strengthen safeguards, and the company's call for mandatory national AI safety standards. A developer named Marcelo Guibu published a demonstration of a mod that can run nvidia's dlss 5 on a second gpu to share the processing load so you render the game on one gpu and then neural rendering is performed at the end of the frame on the second gpu and that boosts your performance it's kind of like sli if you remember sli except sli split it between the two gpus this kind of divides the work in a different way uh gives higher frame rates uh which kibbo says really isn't the point of this reduced heat so better thermal management and prevent saturation of a single card's output.

6:52That's kind of the big game. If you want to try it, you can download his project from GitHub right now. Apple's new off-grid connectivity options come with some mixed pricing. It's extended free satellite access for existing iPhone 14, 15, and 16 users for another year, while T-Mobile will charge$5 per month for iPhone handoff. That's the one that lets one number work across two different iPhones and includes T-satellite on eligible plans. You know, what's funny is I heard a lot of people say, oh, they're going to charge us for that satellite as soon as the year is up. And they haven't yet. They keep extending it.

7:30But I didn't hear anybody saying, I bet they charge us for the iPhone handoff. And they're totally doing that. ID scan is used to scan, authenticate, and extract information from government issued IDs for businesses that need to verify your identity. Now, this can be used for age verification, but it's used for a lot of different things. On September 4th, IDScan disclosed that attackers had accessed a customer database. Brian Krebs reported this on September 1st with a dark web platform called Nexus offering access to 153 million U.S. and Canadian drivers licensed scans. IDScan has not confirmed that that dark web database is the same one that they accessed on IDScan's servers.

8:13And the Nexus database has since gone offline, but it's pretty likely it's the same thing. Yeah. Android now lets users securely transfer passwords and pass keys directly between supported password managers without downloading potentially unsafe files. The feature works on Android 8 or anything newer and is already supported by 1Password, Bitwarden, Dashlane, and Google Password Manager. The governor of the U.S. state of California, hey that's where I am, has signed me too oh my gosh look at us uh that governor has signed several bills into law that govern how children younger than 18 that's not me that might be you though sarah is that you oh no i'm 29 yeah that's right you're 29 so how children younger than 18 interact with chatbots uh among the requirements uh is one to offer mental health resources if a child discusses self-harm and independent child safety audits and annual risk assessments another measure the governor signed prohibits social media companies from letting children younger than 16 access algorithmically constructed feeds or any autoplay video notifications or other features that the state determined are addictive.

9:30VPN service Surfshark wanted to make sure I got that right. Surfshark says attackers accessed an internal test server that was accidentally exposed to the internet, revealing service configurations, code history, system binaries, and build-related credentials. Kind of a lot of stuff. It detected the activity on August 31st and contained it by September 2nd and also says its production VPN systems and customer data, including identities, IP addresses, encryption keys, browsing traffic, none of those were affected. The company has rotated credentials, revoked exposed tokens, strengthened security controls, and commissioned an independent infrastructure audit.

10:15Yeah, so not as bad as it sounded when I first saw that. That's good to know. Finally, this one really is fun for Gen Xers. Acer relaunched the 1990s brand Packard Bell at IFA. It's not just a PC either. There's a low-cost laptop called the Packard bell dot book but there's also a suitcase turntable called the dot loop a feature phone called the dot line 4g uh audio glasses so smart glasses but no cameras called dot look which i'm curious why they're called dot look anyway uh there's also headphones a ring light oh because you're looking and then yeah okay uh there's a bunch of stuff desktop accessories availability expected by the end of Q4 in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa.

11:02DTNS Live made possible by you, thanks to every single person supporting us in all the various ways possible, including ALO, Adam L., Philip Less, Howard Yermish, and Fort Bacon.

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15:16which also comes in a Pro Max version, but the iPhone Duo doesn't have all of the features of the 18 Pro or Pro Max. There's a new base model iPhone. I'm sorry, there is no new base model iPhone. That one's still called the iPhone 17, though there is a less expensive version of that called the 17E. And there's a cheaper model called the 16, which is the old entry-level model, which you can still buy. And there's an iPhone Air and iPads and AirPods. So we have divided into teams to explore the sides of the question. Is Apple's product line too confusing now? Taking the position of, yes, there are too many products is Roger Chang.

15:56On the side of, no, Android is worse, Rob Dunwood. And joining him will be Scott Johnson in the swing seat. Waiting to hear your persuasive statements is Sarah Lane. Yeah, I want to hear it. I'm Tom Merritt. Of course, I'll be your referee. I flipped a coin in private, and starting us off is Roger Chang. Roger, are you ready?

16:22Yes. I'm glad I asked. I like the pause. I like the pause. I had myself muted. Okay, Roger, you have two minutes. Go for it. So one of Steve Jobs' things that he really hammered in on when he came back and took over Apple back in the late 90s was there were way too many products in the Apple product offerings. And he had to simplify it. And he did sort of the whole kind of, you know, let me just – you have four squares. You have, you know, your pro consumer. And then you have your high and low. And that was it. and when you start adding all these additional models, what you end up adding is a lot of confusion for the consumers.

17:11Like, well, do I stay with the 16? Do I go to the 17? Oh, 18 Pro. All the other ones had just a regular one without a Pro, some sort of superlative, so where's that? And so I think it just makes things very messy. Now, I understand from a retail perspective, if you want to have products that hit all the dollar SKUs that you expect people to hit. But I think from a consumer point of view, it's still confusing. And honestly, it's sort of like, what do I get when you say iPhone? iPhone Air, am I talking about the iPhone 17, the Pro Max? Is it the Duo? Or is my, you know, is the old... Well, but they're all very different products, right?

17:55But, yeah, are they? I don't know. I've never used an iPhone. All I see when I get into the store. You would be the wrong person to ask. Well, that's, you know, I mean, unless you're an Apple faithful, like for someone just coming in, it's like, what do I get? Do they all do the same thing? Some of them do other things that the other ones can't do. So which one do I get? And so, and then when you start looking at the prices, then you're like, well, this is all very confusing. And then you add in everything else. I think it just makes a mess of the product category. And you basically end up with GM had for two decades, which is a bunch of additional brands that didn't need to be around because all they were doing was cannibalizing sales from other GM divisions.

18:42And so I think they need to simplify this a lot more. And it's not just iPhone. The Mac as well. Before it was like, okay, you had your Mac Mini. You had your MacBook Air. You had your MacBook Pro. So, all right, I know where I fit. I know what I need. Now you have all these other iMacs. It's like, I don't know. It just seems very messy and seems very shift away from what Apple does. That is your time, Roger. Thank you. I was wondering, whose phone is ringing? I'm like, is it 630 in the morning? I'm supposed to get up. It's time to wake up and make an argument. Rob is leading the team, and through more communication on my part, he and Scott have not been able to confer ahead of time.

19:30I apologize for that. This is where debates get good. Scott, you will be able to lend your argument to Rob on the team there. But Rob, are you ready to go? Oh, I'm ready to go. I'm ready to go. You have your two minutes starting now. So the iPhone lineup is not confusing at all. There's what, six, seven devices. You can't say that, you know, like if you're looking at GM, you can't say, well, the 1957 Cadillac this or that and compared to the cars of today. There's cars that are made this year. That's what we count. There's an iPhone 18 Pro. There's 19. There's an iPhone 18 Pro Max. There is an iPhone Duo.

20:12That's what just came out earlier this week. If you want to continue with what is current, well, there's an iPhone 17, an iPhone 17e, and then the iPhone Air. Six devices. That is not complicated. That's not hard. If you want a really high-end iPhone, get an iPhone Pro. If you want it to be big, get an iPhone Pro Max. If you just want a regular iPhone, just get an iPhone. If you want a little iPhone, get an iPhone Air. If you want a lesser-end iPhone, get an iPhone E. Those are the variants. I don't think at all that that's too much. When you look at like a Samsung, Samsung has pushing three dozen actively sold phones.

20:54They've got half a dozen different lines of phones. They have phones that are they have the same name and then they'll have just extensions on the end. It's like, OK, is this the same phone? No, it's not the same phone. It has a lesser processor, but it looks like the phone that is the same phone that you thought that it was. that's confusing iphone is not confusing i i don't think that they need to have 15 different variants but one of the reasons that i never became an iphone user was because in the beginning iphone had one device it was tiny i didn't like it so i went to a brand it had we've got little phones we've got middle-sized phones we've got big phones i like big phones it made me go somewhere else i think after a few years iphone said maybe we should stop focusing on the tiny itty bitty phones.

21:39Maybe we should make some bigger ones. And it came out with their Macs. None of that was confusing. It was just what people wanted. So I think that what they have now, they've added a folding phone. Folding phones are, I don't want to say that they're mainstream yet, but they are, they're getting there. People tend to like them. Now iPhone users can like one that's ridiculously expensive if that's what they choose to do. But it's not confusing. No one is confusing. Well, what's the difference between the phone that folds and the one that doesn't? Well, the phone that folds folds and the one that doesn't does it that's pretty straightforward you don't have to you don't have to do a lot of guesswork there uh this is a big iphone this is a little iphone this is a high-end iphone this is a medium iphone they i think they're good all right uh i tried a different ringtone to stop people from panicking like it's time to get up in the morning i hope that uh that is our time for the opening statements now we're ready for open discussion so I'll let you know when we've hit time and we need to move on and of course Sarah you can you'll have time to ask questions from the swing seat later but you can you can pop in at any time let's let's give it to Roger a little bit because we just heard from Rob to start the open conversation what do you think I mean I find it very unpersuasive because Samsung has a garbage strategy doesn't make apples any better right you're just saying samsung someone else is a bigger mess great you know i had a friend that was a mess in college there was someone slightly less messy but they were still a mess didn't make them like a saint and so my argument is that entire you know entire rebuttal from opening statement from rob all i heard was iphone uh uh you know like suffix iphone suffix suffix suffix so okay so that's the brand i was gonna say That's what I'm saying.

23:30It's like, so I heard iPhone E. I heard iPhone 18, 18 Pro, 18 Pro Max, iPhone Duo. What I'm saying is, fine, if you want a full, great, Duo. If you just want an iPhone, you should have an iPhone 18. Why would you continue to offer a model line that's two numbers behind if that is indeed indicative of the qualitative technological area at which it plateaued at? Because they have a warehouse full of them. They literally are – they're already made. They already have these devices. They're continuing to make more of them, but they have them. And they're giving people the opportunity to buy not the brand new iPhone.

24:15It's buying the old iPhone. There's this thing, Roger. You know, if you go to a car lot, they will have some 2026 on the lot. But they'll have 2025s, maybe even a few 2024s on the new car lot. Because they just have made the same car in multiple years. And you know what we call that lot? We call it the used car lot. No, he's talking about the new car. The new car lot's a lot of old model. The dealer's going to sit on a two-year-old model unless they have run into some major financial difficulties. Because you need to sell those as quick as possible because they pay those cars with loans. They just can't sit on them.

24:54So my thing is it's not that iPhone is an inferior product. It's just that you have an entire product. And it's not just iPhone. Again, this is like up and down. And I think this is more indicative of the fact that over time, things have moved away from where Steve Jobs was very eye-intensive. Whatever product you need has to meet a specific demand that everyone wants. So where does the iPhone Air fit? Is it just a form factor issue or is it a price thing? Because if it's a price thing, then you just said you had the iPhone E. I think it is a price thing, very much so. So then why would you have the iPhone 16?

25:34still selling because the iphone era is thinner it's bigger it's a different device people who want a thin device i'll give you the perfect example i am very interested in the iphone duo um the thing that is interesting me about it is that it is a foldable and it supports a stylus something that i cannot do with a samsung uh you know with a fold 8 with the fold 8 ultra they don't have stylus support so one of the reasons that i don't generally carry my iphone or carry an iphone as my secondary device because up until now they've all been candy bar style phones that the iphone the difference between an iphone and a samsung galaxy s25 or 26 ultra is not all that much i mean it's the operating system and everything is different but they're just two candy bar style phones it's like is it a lincoln or is it a cadillac they both go forward go backwards, turn left and right.

26:29Now there is an iPhone that's making me say, huh, this could be a true secondary device that I would keep in my pocket because it is a significantly different form factor than what I've already said I didn't want. And it adds stylus support, something that I can't get with the device that I actually prefer. So I would carry that as a second device. I think that having more options is a good thing, not having all the options, but having more options, more than just one or two is a good thing because it draws in people like me who would have never bought one before so roger before you start we haven't heard from scott johnson yet i was about yeah i was about to ask scott too your honor i implore you um all right swing seat would like to hear from mr johnson here's the deal i'm gonna i'm gonna back rob's position and i'm gonna back it from somebody who took a lot of marketing classes in college and uh was sort of surrounded by that stuff and how you would present yourself and what kind of sets Apple apart.

27:24But also, I'm not going to pretend that Apple hasn't had flubs in this design or in this area. I remember, I'm old enough to remember the new iPad. Remember that when they called it the new iPad during a time when they had model numbers for the rest of the iPads and it made no sense. So they're not perfect at this. But the predictable three-tier architecture they usually go with is like good, better, best. It's kind of the three-tiered approach that Apple has always taken. An entry-level model, the Air model, if you're talking about notebooks or whatever, if you're talking about phones, it's different.

27:56The Pro model in the case of phones, the Pro Max is like a little bit more, and then now the Duo making it, you know, another tier. But it's very clear by looking at that lineup that you're saying the 16, which is what we've got, you know, as our baseline for now on the cheap end, that's still here. If you really want to go nuts and get that thin one, we got that for you thin lovers out there. Like they're making it very clear, more than most companies do, what the tiers mean and whether you want them or not. You know, forgetting about all of the past, forget about the M4 cubes and all the weirdness of the past.

28:34What matters is what they announced this week. And if you look at the lineup on the site and you go in there, you know what you're going to get. and I would argue the Mac lineup is very much the same. Things like Air, Mini, Macs, those communicate instantly to our lizard brains, intended use cases. When you say Macs and Pro... Speak for yourself. Well, I am. But let's say you say Pro Macs, what does it tell me? And they also get behind it by explaining camera features and things that don't exist in the other models. But when you say Pro Macs, I'm thinking, ooh, for the prosumer, for the professional.

29:11And Macs, that's the best one. It's not hard to understand that. And when you say Air, even though Apple kind of initiated what Air means years ago with the MacBook Air, you immediately go, oh, really thin. Steve Jobs could put that in a little thin envelope or something. The Air, it's thin. That's the one I want. I don't care about fancy camera or better battery life. I want the thinnest thing they have. It's instantly communicated with simple words that we understand instead of arbitrary model names or suffixes with numbers that mean nothing to them. They're kind of masters at this. Or 17? Yeah.

29:4716? Yeah. Those make sense because, Roger, if you're in the store, and there's this guy at our Costco named Devin. He's a great kid, and he works there. I want to meet Devin. Shout out to Devin. He's the T-Mobile guy there, and he's super nice. He does this all day with people. He'll have older people come in who don't understand the differences, and he has to explain it in simple ways. he's told me before how hard it is to explain the Samsung stuff as compared to the Apple stuff. And because the Apple stuff says, hey, are you worried too much about big features? And the old guy goes, I don't think so.

30:18Just basic. Well, then you say, well, then I'd go with the 16. The old guy's going to understand that a 16 is a lower number than an 18. He knows that's true. And he knows the value proposition is also different. It's also a very nice phone. Yeah. To be clear. I mean, this is the thing. I am not impugning the qualitative or performance of any of Apple's products. I'm just saying their product line is very confusing. You take issue with the naming conventions. So hold on, hold on. I've been told that the Air is the introductory model, but now I'm being told that the 16 is. But the Air offers the stylus support, so do any of the other iPhones offer the stylus support?

30:55Or is it just the Air? And if that's the case, does that apply to the MacBook Air? Does that apply to all the other Air suffixed products? Yeah, but you're not there to buy a computer and a phone. You're there to buy a phone. When I go to buy a car, I'm not also thinking about helicopters. I mean, I'm there to get the thing that I'm there to get. So I think that— Do you buy a Mercury Sable or a coat made of Sable? Well, let me know. I don't go to a Chevy dealership, and I don't see a Bell, you know, Bell 212. No, no, but you do go to a Honda dealership and say, I'm interested in a small sedan, and they say, what do you think about this motorcycle?

31:30Those are there. So I guess what I'm saying is if you're going in to look for a phone, you know you're there for the phone. And if he says Air, do you say, hold on, is that their thin notebook? No one does that. They know because they're looking at it. It's right there to see it. That's the other thing. This stuff doesn't come in just words on a sheet of paper. They come presented for you. You see it in the store. So what you're saying is I need to have a curated experience to explain the product line to me so I get the right thing. There's six devices. There's six devices with Apple. Which I would argue is three devices.

32:02The current version of the device. There's six of them. For Samsung, there's 34. They'd have to bring out 34 devices on a cart to show you for Samsung. With Apple, they can literally walk out with all six devices in three pockets. It's pretty straightforward. Again, you're arguing to me that one is not messy because this one is a flaming wreckage of confusion. I'm not disagreeing with you. Roger. But you have to compare those two because I'll back Rob on this point. You're out to buy a phone, so you have to have the comparison of, well, what does the rest of the market do? That's part of this discussion.

32:41It has to be. It can't just be in a vacuum. Roger, if I may, what would be – you're basically saying like, yeah, nine is too many, but six is also too many. What would be the proper approach in your opinion for either company? So let's just take Scott's argument. You do the introductory level, you do the mid-tier model, and then you do the premium model. That's great. Now, if you need a specialty device, great. Throw it in there. But when I go in and I'm looking for something that will – and I have a Pixel 6a. I know this thing's four or five years behind the curve, and next year it's going to lose security updates at the end of next year.

33:26But when I go to the store, they still sell it. And so that's one of those things where, well, not on the Pixel store, but online, you can still shop for these brand new. You have a product line, I think, that just adds a lot of confusion and cannibalization of the existing market. If I have the Duo, great. Does that now replace an iPad Air because now it's offering a stylus functionality? That's a good question. No. Absolutely not. It's a good question that for some people it might. They may say, well, next year I'm not getting the new iPad. I'm just going to get that Duo because how I use it is good enough for the size of the Duo.

34:07That's possible. At this point in the game, Apple is not losing anything. But as someone who does not use iPhones, iPads, I have a MacBook. I have three MacBooks. But I don't use any of the iOS devices. All of it just looks like a giant blur of products. like iPhone, which 16, 17, 17 Pro, 17 Pro Max, right? No, 17, 17E, that's it for the 17. See, exactly. Why are all the conventions not even consistent? I think a lot of people know what they are. Even if they don't know, even if they don't know, that doesn't prove the point. No, no, no, no, no, that doesn't prove the point. You're missing a very basic part of Marketing 101, which is when I go into anywhere, a store or online or anywhere, and I'm looking for the thing, and they want to sell me the expensive thing.

34:58And I say, well, I'm not really in the market for the 18 Pro or that Duo. I don't need a foldable phone. These are all too expensive. Is there any other options? Well, we do have the 17e. It's a lot less, and it's a step above the 16 for sure. So you're going to have better features, but you're not going to spend all that money. You want to go that way? That's sales. That's it. No, that's salesmanship. You are correct. Yeah, and all of this requires that. Where does the iPhone Air fit into that then? Can you imagine that poor Samsung salesman? Well, what you need is that 34th one. I get it. You guys don't like Samsung.

35:29No, it's not it. That's not it. Where is the iPhone? Let me just say, here's where the iPhone Air comes in. It's like, you know, I really like the iPhone. I just want it to be as close to paper thin as possible. What do you have for me? The iPhone Air. The reason that Apple makes the iPhone Air is because people say, I want a really, really thin phone. That's why it exists. once but still there's six devices there's only six that's not confusing you you get the one of the six that fits you if you want the biggest folding phone you get the duo if you want the highest end phone you can get you get the pro if you know um if you wanted to be a big you know pro you get the pro max but it's none of that is confusing to i shouldn't say it's confusing to no but it's not confusing to me because as as you know as scott has the device is telling you Exactly what the device is.

36:22This one folds. This one is a pro and it's big. This one is just a pro. This is just a regular size iPhone, and this is a really thin iPhone. And then there's the – and here's a really low-end iPhone in the same model year. Yeah, because they're cheap and you can't afford – not because you're cheap. You're like, I can't afford any of those you just showed me. Well, good deal because Apple's got these others too. Yeah. To me, those aren't the ones you're pushing anyway, So the confusion only starts if you start. In fact, Roger, your argument about confusion is because you have knowledge of so many Apple products.

36:56And that's where I'll end it, Judge. Does he, though? All right. Swing seat, do you have any further questions you would like to put to either team? I really don't. I think everybody made great arguments today. I am going to go with the it's not that hard to understand Apple naming conventions. So I'm going with Scott and Rob on this one. How many Android phones have you on? Sorry, Roger.

37:31The chair warns Roger not to continue his arguments after the decision. That's for sure. All right. Well, thank you, Sarah. Thank you, Rob. Thank you, Scott. And thank you, Roger. It was two on one. Roger had three. He's very stressful. The swing seat was already swinging one way. I'm sorry. It's your job to swing her the other way. It was the persuasiveness of my initial argument. I think it's a fact that you all use iPhone. Everybody was very good at what they did. No, thank you, everybody. I'm an Android user. I'm with you. It's like I want even more options. I like the 36 options I get with Samsung.

38:07Yeah, when I heard Rob was arguing this end, I kind of smirked. I went, wait a minute. know what he's going to be on the side of apple on this one because i know how he feels generally but he's against apple yeah i mean like that's that's the problem that's the problem with our biases right we got to get it in here and air it out it's all good and this is the thing and people need to understand i am not against apple i think that apple makes fine devices i just happen to like the it's like this i like mercedes an awful lot do you know what i like more than mercedes cadillacs i just like i just like cadillacs a little bit more that's not that's not a knock on Mercedes.

38:41I just happen to like Cadillac. Which is why I'm like, I am not knocking any of the products for performance or quality. I'm just saying, it's just a very confusing time. Well, folks, if you would like to express your side, if you haven't already, we've got a poll up for this at patreon.com slash DTNS. Sarah, what's on Live With It this week? Oh, interesting that you asked, Tom. Product reviews from people who put gadgets, services, and platforms to the test is live with it. That is our show. We do it every week. And each week we talk about the tech in our lives, not just sort of like knee-jerk reactions, the tech that we're actually using.

39:22And if we think it's great, and we would perhaps want you to live with it as well. This week we're talking about Tom's experience with the Apple Watch Series 11. Now the Series 12 was just announced, But Tom has been living with the Series 11 for quite some time and has thoughts. We're on YouTube at YouTube.com slash at Live With It Show. And big thanks to everybody who keeps us trying out new things. Patreon.com slash Live With It.

40:00Hey, everyone. It's Chris Guillebeau here, host of the Side Hustle School podcast. this episode is powered by AT &T Business. In my early days, I did some of my best work in parked cars or coffee shops. When I landed my first big contract, I realized I couldn't bet my future on a public connection that cuts out if someone turns on a blender. As a small business owner, you're already wearing at least 10 hats. You shouldn't have to be your own IT department as well. That's why I rely on AT &T Business. They keep your connectivity reliable so you have one less thing to worry about. Powered by AT &T Business, built to work.

40:35Get AT &T Business at business.att.com. There are moments that reveal who we are and who we're meant to become. For those born to lead, such moments call for a vehicle of equal distinction. Dynamic by design, uncompromising in execution, the Range Rover Sport was engineered for those rare individuals who demand the world and possess the conviction to claim it. When your time to lead arrives, you need a vehicle that rises to meet it. The Range Rover Sport. Exclusive offers available now. Explore further at RangeRover.com. Folks, Ramageddon continues. Prices rise even though Microsoft seems to be pointing toward a late 2027 or early 2028 release for the next Xbox.

41:22Prices are not expected to come down by then. so that xbox is probably going to cost you more than you would have thought some analysts are saying sony might even wait until 2028 or 2029 for the next playstation and then there's the whole cloud gaming of it all so our next question of the week is do we need new consoles even if we have to wait a few years for this whole component situation to work itself out uh taking the position that we could wait but we like consoles uh once again scott johnson and rob dunwood uh teaming up. On the side of consoles, walking dead man, if you ask me, is Roger Chang.

42:01This isn't biased at all. Two against one. It's only because you're so strong. Are you strong alive? The courage of your convictions makes you worth two people, Roger. I better get a stake out of this. Yeah. In the swing seat again. And this is an interesting one, Sarah, because you're not a console gamer, so you're kind of open to whatever. No, I am. I'm coming in blind. Sway me, somebody. If you want to make a mid-show change, if you want to throw me into the swing seat, Roger, it is possible that you could convince me if you want me to join the swing seat. I like this. I like the mid-show switch.

42:41I don't know. Let's do it. He's very suspicious. Scott, are you cool with that? Yeah, I'm all right with it. Rob Bale's on the swing seat. What are you suspicious? What's suspicious about that? Oh, suddenly now this happens right at the same time. Why is this bad for you, Roger? Sometimes people have different opinions. And they want to hear both sides. I'm okay with it. I am okay with it. Okay, Roger, thank you. This favors Roger, so let's do it. I will now flip something and determine that Scott Johnson gets to go first with his arguments. Scott, you have two minutes starting now. All right.

43:17The introduction of high-end refresh hardware mid-generation, PS5 Pro in this case. The last generation had two of those from both Xbox and PlayStation. That kind of means the current generation still has plenty of untapped overhead. That doesn't mean everybody got a Pro, and it doesn't mean that we're all prepared to maybe take advantage of the Pro's features. However, and I'll use PlayStation as the main example. It is the leader of this console generation and is the one that everybody will watch for whatever happens next. there is a ton of potential under the hood of these devices that makes them underutilized for the usual short span of the typical console cycle which is somewhere between five and eight years in total sometimes it will go longer than that but a new console will also exist and then they'll sort of transition out of the old one there are still games being made for ps4 that are also made for ps5 as an example so what that tells me or what i what i believe and know about this is that it's already possible to squeeze more out of these devices and their capabilities while they're still here and while people are still using them.

44:23But especially now, because we've kind of crested in the capabilities department when it comes to fidelity and graphics and that sort of thing. You could make big arguments about how there will be bottlenecks and that the rapid rise of AI in video games and how it affects gaming could make things go faster. Just ray tracing alone is going through rapid iteration and what ray tracing even is and how it can behave. You guys have talked on the show a bunch about DLSS5 and what its impact might be or may not be. So those are factors, but there's a lot of gameplay and a lot of ideas and a lot of creativity and a lot of overhead or a high ceiling of space to build really compelling experiences without needing to say ours is the most photorealistic or this next generation you won't be able to tell the difference between this and reality we're at a place where there's a lot of room in there for stylization all the way up to high realism and everything in between and a lot of games that could come out that would take advantage of those things and not need to worry about well what's the next generation we should develop for that.

45:29In a way, it's a gift to developers who are having their own struggles in that industry, but a gift to them to say, slow down a little. It's okay that your next project isn't on the PlayStation 6. It's okay that it's a wonderful game, regardless of where it is, and it looks great on the current gen of consoles. Oh, there it is. That's my argument. I thought that was like an ambulance in the middle of Paris. Yeah. Fine, I'll keep trying different ones. No, it was good. It was good. That is Scott's time. Thank you, Scott. Roger, it is your time. You have two minutes until the ambulance starts. All right.

46:11Well, thank you for agreeing with me, Scott. You don't really need all that hardware power because I think the model of what game consoles in the video game industry represented, which was initially hardware limitations. And so each company tried to take advantage of the value proposition. How can we integrate certain graphical and audio features sets into our machines that will make it better than our competitors? I think we've reached a level where the hardware for all that is accessible by everyone. And I think just the hardware as platform, I think, is going away. What we do see, though, is that the stores themselves are now the platform, whether you're talking about Steam, whether you're talking about the Sony PlayStation Store, Xbox Store, whatever.

47:02Those are going to be what people are targeting. And what's interesting is some of the most innovative games aren't the ones that push the most pixels, that give you the most realism, right? I mean, Dispatch is a standard Dispatch game, but it's got a number of awards. It's a great, fun, entertaining time. Fantastic game, yeah. And it didn't cost me an arm and a leg, which tells me the bottleneck isn't the fidelity of the visuals or fidelity of the audio. It is the ability for the developers to really concentrate on game mechanics and the overall experience, which I don't think you necessarily need to have another console to deal with.

47:42I think what you need to do is allow the market not to say, hey, there's a new console. Let's pour a million, tens of millions, in some cases, a hundred million, hundreds of millions into developing game engines and stuff that take advantage of it when people just want something they can sit down and play with and enjoy. And I think that's kind of what's sort of losing is the enjoyability factor because when you pay$80 for a game, I think people want a value experience that feels like, yeah, that's$80 worth of playtime,$80 worth of enjoyment, $80 worth of whatever you have with the game. But if you're spending all your bucks on trying to get the best graphics, trying to get the best sound, trying to get the best whatever visual fidelity, I think it misses out on just focusing on the mechanics, focusing on the presentation, focusing on the whole kind of cohesiveness of the game.

48:37And I think it's sort of a chicken and egg thing. I think we're at the point where games are so expensive to produce that, you know, having a next-gen console. I love how you petered out at the end. That was great. I don't know. Am I supposed to start my sleep setting? It's probably a little too sleepy time. I'll keep playing with it. But, yes, thank you, Roger. Good explanation. So now we have open discussion. Our swing seats can jump in if they want. Scott, we'll let you start the open discussion segment. We will be keeping this one a little shorter than the last open discussion. Just be aware.

49:16And then the swing seats will have time for questions if they have them. Yeah, I'll make this actually rather quick because a lot of the fundamentals here, Roger and I do see eye to eye on. I think that this is an opportunity for us to focus on the things he said, and I think that's a good thing. If he's arguing no more consoles ever, that's different, though. I'm not arguing for no consoles ever. I'm saying the delay is okay. You don't need the fastest GPU right now. You don't need to go spend all that money. Let it ride for a little bit. Spend money on the games themselves. Let the devs chill and make cool stuff.

49:48In the meantime, let the indie space rise as it has been. Let AAA figure out what they're going to do. And let's not have to have the refresh so quickly. Do I want a future where there's no such thing as the next generation of leaps? No, I want that. But it's okay that we have to wait a little while. That's my argument, just to clarify. My counter-argument to that is it's not that I think that consoles are evil or bad. I just think that the time, that kind of time for them is going away. I don't think that they make financial sense. You have to pour a lot of money into development of those platforms when you can already do things like exclusives by tying them to a store through whatever store that you have.

50:36And I think that the PC shows that you don't really need to have a Blackwell-based GPU to enjoy a multitude of games that are available. And the whole thing about... I mean, what really irks me about game consoles is not the physical nature of them, is the fact that it has built up these vertical integrated market ecosystems around them that I think I find very anti-competitive if whatever... Although Microsoft seems to be moving towards breaking down that. Yes, but that's what I'm saying. It's like, there's so much money being invested in this next-gen hardware that I don't think necessarily will maybe...

51:18I mean, they already invested it for the next-gen, but past that I don't know if it's going to make the financial sense from a business model of just saying that... Even Microsoft, though, So is Microsoft's two? Rob's got a question. Go ahead. So I think I agree with both of your arguments that we don't need new hardware right now. My question is, by the time we do need new hardware, will streaming capability have caught up to where you could literally get the same fidelity if I just have a controller and a streaming service as I would the physical hardware? So I'm glad you brought that up because that is actually right where I was heading.

51:54And I'll just say this real quick. I've been testing and using. I bought a year of GeForce Now to kind of go through this. It was on massive sale. I figured it would be a good time to test it. And I also have Fiber now. And the combination of those two things has kind of been magical. If there's a game I need to play on my Steam Deck around the house or I just want to fire something up on my Mac or wherever I'm at, it has been seamless and really good. However, you mentioned Microsoft, Tom. They took one step forward, two steps back. They have a streaming initiative. they just took away how long people can use it on their premium accounts they said you have to pay extra if you want more than 15 hours yeah it literally went from unlimited to you want to play more than 15 you're going to piecemeal this out that those kind of moves concern me about the strength of either how it's doing now or how costly it is to maintain it in the future uh i'm not exactly sure why they pulled back on this and it's not to say others haven't because geforce now also did a little bit of a pullback on their total time allowed for their premium users.

52:55I don't like it when they do that. They're acting like it's internet caps, but for games and it's stupid. There you go. I kind of like this one. That one's nice. We're trying them out today. Avocado and toaster. Yeah, it's very nice. Okay, any more questions from the swing seats? I don't have any questions really um no further questions i i'm not i'm not a big gamer um i've never pretended to be one what i do you know think of just in the terms of like physical media versus cloud-based um you know gameplay i i'm just like cloud-based gameplay all day because then you just have less clutter in your living room yeah all right there's something to that sounds like you came down on the side of no console necessary what about you rob so this is i'm not sure and this is why i switched uh to the swing seat i i'm not sure because do i believe that we need new hardware today no roger and scott both effectively make that argument my question is do i need new hardware in 2029 2030 i still don't know if streaming is capable of giving me 95 of what i could get with a thousand dollar piece of hardware sitting under my television i'm for streaming if it's not or if we start to get into and i think roger you were going here the verticals is like oh well you can only stream for 15 hours on this plan you got to get this plan if you want to stream more or you can only stream this if you have this account you can't stream it if you have that account if those things are factored in then i'm not really down for the streaming i would kind of lead towards at some point i'm probably going to another one-on-one another piece of hardware to get all that I can get.

54:44And then also, if I just buy the game, I know it's going to work on that device. That being said, though, I don't know that by 2030, what you get with a physical piece of hardware for$1 ,000. If it costs free, then yes, that piece of hardware will be definitely more capable than what I think you'll be able to stream even four years from now. For$1 ,000, for$999, I don't know that the hardware at that point will actually really outdo what streaming can do. So for that, I will say that I don't know that there's absolutely a reason to have another console come out today. Roger, you swayed me. Can I say one thing?

55:25Can I say one thing? Not in my defense. The decisions have been made, Scott. But I'll allow it. I do want to hear Scott's point, though. Yeah, because this is actually maybe even more to Roger's favor, what I'm about to say. um but and this is full disclosure which most lawyers do not give you on a stage um i'm i'm so impressed with the way not just geforce now works but even local technologies like um moonlight which i've installed and i've run that all over the house it's it's using the same core technology which is it's really amazing stuff i've been using that stuff so much that i'm i have started myself going well when this pc ages out i probably just keep doing this other thing like why would i do that for four grand when i could go 50 a month or whatever it is averaged out on a normal year what is that normally why wouldn't i just kind of do that and it's a it's all about a few vectors coming together internet reliability getting to where it needs to be uh this stuff running on lower speed connections that's improving because the technology is improving how they do compression and everything, like all of those vectors coming together could be a thing in, let's say, 2029 where I go, I'm not upgrading this time.

56:37I think I'll just keep doing this thing. That's entirely possible. So I guess I just gave you the win. You brought everybody over to your side, Roger. Congratulations. See, look how overwhelmingly it worked in your favor compared to that thing earlier with Apple. Look at what happened. That thing with Apple. Real quickly, our third question of the week isn't one that breaks down into simple pro and con sides. and we're going to keep it very simple with the question we want you to answer and just go around the horn. We've had engineers quitting big AI companies over safety concerns this week. We had a sometimes called AI doomer, Paul Cristiano, join the OpenAI Foundation board and therefore joining its safety team.

57:18The concern that we talked about earlier in the week is recursive self-improvement, which we don't have yet. But when it happens, models would be able to make their own improvements faster than humans can keep up with them. That is the concern. And the question I want you to answer is, what do you want to see done about it next? What's the next step you want to see? Pull the plug. Yeah, because we probably don't have time to come up with a comprehensive solution to the entire problem. But Sarah, are you serious about pulling the plug? We'll let you start. What is the next thing you'd like to see people do?

57:54I'm not really serious about that but you know when everyone says like ai is going to kill humans you know it's coming for us it's like uh well we created it so we could also just shut the whole thing down now now i i understand uh for financial reasons um and just you know just a lot of other good reasons that ai is doing good for humanity that is not that is not the reason but at the same time, it's like, I don't know. I mean, we have the option to just be like, you know what? Great experiment. Didn't work out. Got weird. Let's book out of here. So for anybody who's sort of like, I don't, you know, I don't like where this is going.

58:47I'm very frightened about it. we have to trust the people that are in charge. And unfortunately, that means that you're trusting people who are in charge of for-profit companies. Now, you might like the people in charge of those companies, but you don't have a lot of say in that. Now, then you get into, you know, where does government uh uh play into this you know where is you know who who are the oversight committees and i think we're we're you know i always say this it's like it's such a wild west situation that uh we are now we're having conversations where uh you know companies are like we're trying really hard not to kill everybody.

59:38But, you know, we're like, our tech is so good. We're doing it, kind of. Alright. Roger, what would you like to be done next? We need to keep these rather concise. Yeah, so, I mean, it's kind of weird. Both the incumbent players, as well as sovereign governments around the world, agree on more government regulation. Of course, this benefits the incumbents because they get to be part of the rule writing, or at least, you know, the inclusion of it. And for national governments, it does enable them to give some sort of the illusion of power over a lot of these developments. But I mean, it's, I think what people want is some sort of, some sort of, I don't hate using this word, but accountability that if something bad happens, the company that produced it is on the hook in some fashion, either financially or liable in a court of law, so that they feel that there's a means of redress if things really go off the rails.

1:00:42Scott, again, we're trying to keep these as concise as possible, but what do you think? What do you think you want done next? I think that the guardrails aren't enough right now. I think that we will have a tendency as humans to put guardrails up as we go, hopefully fast enough that it won't supersede it. Because they all freak me out when they say, we are capable of destroying humanity. This company's awesome. Buy our thing. We're going to sell it. It's great. It's a weird disconnect for me is all I'll say. So I think we should get on it sooner than later. All right. And then, Rob, thanks, everybody, for keeping these concise for us.

1:01:19Rob, you got the last one. I don't think that everyone who is a fair, fairly high up at one of these companies that is quitting at great financial peril to themselves. They are leaving literally tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars on the table in some cases to say, hey, this stuff is really bad. We really need to look at it. I don't think they're all playing chicken little. To that point, there are companies Lockheed Martin, Boeing. These companies build weapons platforms. They are extremely, extremely, extremely relegated by the federal government. They work with them on what the military generally wants, what the Department of Defense generally wants to try to build.

1:02:04They're working together. That stuff isn't just getting out. I wonder if that we should be looking at A.I. companies in the same way, because I keep hearing people say that we're six months. maybe 18 months, maybe four years away from creating a weapons platform that can kill everyone on Earth significantly more effectively than nuclear weapons could. And for way, way, way less expense. Enough people are saying those kind of things that I'm like, we might need to think about something. So it's like when I think about like Lockheed Martin, we know them to make fighter jets and things and stuff like that.

1:02:44You can't just go to Lockheed and say, hey, I want to buy my own stealth bomber. That's not how that works. That stuff is relegated through the federal government. I wonder if AI, at least the AGI stuff that we're talking about getting into, the recursive AI building itself, if we should be looking at it from that standpoint, because I think there's enough people who are ringing an alarm that we might actually should be. Oddly, I think the thing I would like to see developed is similar to Meta's accountability board. It is an independent board that is not answerable to Meta. Unfortunately, Meta is not entirely bound by its decisions, but I think something like that with people who are educated in this respect from multiple companies, from multiple disciplines, from multiple scientific backgrounds that are related to this issue, creating a review board that is charged with two things particularly.

1:03:42particularly one, creating a plan for recursive self-improvement now before it becomes possible. And two, addressing current dangers, things that you can do with these tools right now and mitigating against them. Do I have what those plans should be? Absolutely not. But those are the two things that I would like to see. Thanks everybody for sharing your perspectives on this as well. That's going to wrap up the show. Thank you, Sarah Lane, for being in the swing seat. Appreciate it. Always happy to be in the swing. And Rob, I love jumping sides. Very WWE of you to just, you know, head right over the ropes and join the swing seat.

1:04:23Appreciated that. If we can't make changes mid-game, then what are we doing? Yeah, what are we even doing? Roger Chang, taking on the hard questions. Very well done. Appreciate it as always. And of course, Scott Johnson for joining us. Thank you as well for joining us. It's been too long, Scott. Yeah, it has been too long. I missed you guys. We decided Apple's product line is too confusing. No, we, or it is not too confusing. Sorry, it's not too confusing. No, we do not need game consoles. And we talked about what we want from AI companies to do about safety. Big thanks to Len Peralta, who has been illustrating today's show.

1:05:03Len, what have you drawn for us today? Yeah, you know, great conversation, by the way. I was very, very intrigued by it. I usually draw the top stories of the week or top tech stories. And, of course, the big story this week was the iPhone Duo. But I also added a little bit of something in this week's art. The other big thing is Nathan Fielder's new movie about Elizabeth Holmes. This is Elizabeth Holmes. So I saw something online that said that the Internet was accusing Apple of Photoshop and the iPhone Duo ads to make them look like the foldable device is easier to hold with one hand. Are they deceiving us?

1:05:43I don't know. Do they have anything to deceive you on? Of course I'm not deceiving you. So I thought the seat and the iPhone Duo was great for this week's art. Fantastic. Thank you, Len. That's great. That is awesome. Yeah, by the way, if you want to get that, just go to Patreon, patreon.com forward slash Len, or go to my online store and get it at lenperlstore.com. Len, good stuff as always. Scott Johnson, also great to have you back on the show. We've missed you. Thank you so much. Where can people find your latest? Well, normally you'd say, he'll just say frogpants.com, but not today. Today I'm going to tell you to go to newduck.com.

1:06:22N-E-W-D-U-C-K.com. Why? Because I'm putting up a near daily nonsense comic every day. It's a long story why I'm back doing that at that rate. but it is full of nonsense. Is it like the guy in the can? Yeah, no. Fred and Can is still a thing. Still happening. But this is like a little separate project and if you want to know what it's like for a bee husband to come home to his bee wife and his stinger's missing. Oh, that's so sad. The hilarity that ensues. Because I think I know what happens when your stinger's missing. Yeah, one of these days I'll put up a sub stack about my thinking behind why I'm even doing this.

1:07:03But for now, just enjoy it. It's free. It's up there, newduck.com. Check it out. There'll be something new up today, in fact. So enjoy. Fantastic. Thank you, Scott. Thank you, everyone who supports us on Twitch, YouTube, or Patreon. We got resubscribes on Twitch from Zoe Brings Bacon and Theater Monkey. Big thanks to everybody who supports us in all the possible ways you can, including our patrons who keep us in business by supporting us directly at patreon.com slash DTNS. Patrons stick around for the post show where we're playing the guess the house price game with Roger. Tomorrow's Saturday special is a roundtable discussion of all the Apple announcements with Sarah Lane, Jen Cutter, and the hosts of the SnobOS cast.

1:07:45Keep an eye out for that, and we'll talk to you again with the news on Monday.

1:07:54This week's episode of the Daily Tech News Show We're brought to you by the following people. Host Wen Twaydao. Host Rob Dunwood. Host Jason Howell. Host Sarah Lane. Host Tom Merritt. Producer Roger Chang. Producer Anthony Lamos. Video producer Joe Kuntz. Editor Hammond Chamberlain. Social media producer and moderator Zoe Detterding. Our mods. Beatmaster WSkotus1. BioCow. Captain Kipper. Steve Guadarama. Paul Reese. Matthew J. Stevens and J.D. Galloway. Mod and video hosting by Dan Christensen. Music provided by Martin Bell and Dan Luters. Art by Len Peralta. A-Cast ad support from Allie Gallo.

1:08:28Patreon support from Bobby Wagner. Our guest this week was Scott Johnson. And thanks to all the patrons who make the show possible.

1:08:37This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

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