Is Dario about to become Dari-out? - DTNS 5290

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2:47this is the daily tech news for monday june 15th 2026 we tell you what you need to know give you some important context and man are we gonna try to help each other understand today today the u.s government causes anthropic to shut down this fable five model and justin robert young is here to help us understand i'm tom merit and i'm rob dunwood let's start with what you need to know with that big story.

3:11All right, let's start with the background first. At 5.30 p.m. Friday, U.S. Secretary of Commerce Howard Lutnick sent Anthropic Chief Executive Dario Amode a letter that said, I love you. No, it said both Fable 5, the public model, and Mythos 5, the restricted model, were subject to export restrictions and therefore no customers outside the U.S. or foreign nationals within the U.S., even if they work at Anthropic, should be allowed to access either of those models. Anthropic said it would be too difficult to try to sort all that out for the people in the U.S., including at their own company. And so they felt they had no choice but to shut down access to both models for everyone in the world.

3:57Now, how did this come about sources say amazon ceo andy jassy called u.s secretary of the treasury scott besant on thursday axios says executives from a total of five other companies also called the government to talk about the same thing jassy was talking about which is that some amazon employees had found a way to bypass fable fives safety guidelines not mythos but fable fives safety guidelines to get proof of concept information about security vulnerabilities and at least four software programs. That is information that Mythos can then take and turn into exploitable code. But Fable 5 shouldn't even show you the proof of concept technically.

4:44Now, there's no evidence that they could get Fable 5 to turn it into exploit code, but it was doing something that it shouldn't have necessarily been able to do. Amazon is an investor in Anthropic. So this isn't Amazon, you know, trying to put the sticks to Anthropic. In fact, Anthropic is one of its biggest cloud customers and partners. The government then asked Anthropic in a call that included Dario and Modi at around 1 p.m. Friday, so four and a half hours before the letter I mentioned earlier, to fix the vulnerability. And if they didn't, you know, maybe take down the model. Anthropic said it believed these were, quote, a small number of previously known minor vulnerabilities.

5:25These vulnerabilities all appear relatively simple, and we have found that other publicly available models are able to discover them as well. Security researchers have rallied to Anthropic's side. Luta Security CEO Katie Masuris told The Wall Street Journal that she felt the order was an overreaction because, and I quote, this is exactly the kind of prompting that defenders would do. This is what the good guys do. They try to find out where the vulnerabilities are so they can fix them. Marsuris was one of several people who signed a letter arguing that this prohibition hurts the security researchers more than it stops malicious attackers.

5:59That letter was also signed by security leads at Adobe, Zoom, Sophos, and NVIDIA. A total of about 40 or more, just a little more than 40 people signed that letter. And that letter said the proofs of concept at issue could be created by Claude Opus, the less capable model, GPT 5.5 or even China's Kimi 2.7. Now, Anthropic does not get along with the U.S. executive branch. We've talked about that previously on the show. Sources told Axios it's like they just speak in different languages. I don't know why Axios even needed to get a source to say that, but they did. Axios said virtual meetings were held throughout the weekend.

6:36and Anthropic staff have allegedly flown to D.C. Reportedly, the Commerce Department will meet with Anthropic senior staffers Logan Graham, Dave Orr, and Nicholas Carlini on Monday. In fact, by the time you hear this, something may have come out of that. Meetings are also scheduled with the CIA and science advisor Michael Kratzios. So there's the table. It has been set. Justin Robert Young, let us dine. First of all, just the merits of the dispute. How do you feel about this, the technology concerns here about the vulnerability finding? Well, the technology concerns are entirely framed by the way that Anthropic has talked about this model from the very beginning, which is no less serious from their own words as being a nuclear bomb and something that needs to lead to the creation of a federal agency like the FDA or the FAA so they can license models that are as powerful and as dangerous as this one.

7:36And whether or not this specific exploit is something that needs to be licensed is now at odds. But it puts Anthropic in a very tricky position because they have been at the forefront of pushing for greater governmental regulation on these things for years now. now uh and when they find one where uh they are at a differing opinion with the government they seem to want to push back on it yeah and clearly there's some muddying the waters between fable five which is supposed to be the thing you can't do bad things with and mythos which is supposed to be the thing that is so dangerous that only a few people should have it uh but it definitely seems to involve personalities, as you might say.

8:26Well, and even the way that this is being discussed, and I think what some people, what's being lost in the conversation is exactly how many people this particular dust up has gone through. And I really want to differentiate it from the supply chain designation that happened with the Pentagon. By all accounts, that was really like a personality clash between an undersecretary of formerly defense, now war, and Pete Hegseth, the secretary of war. They did not get along with Dario. And there are many reports of specific arguments that these guys all had. In this case, we're talking about what the government alleges to be up to four or five different companies.

9:14Andy Jassy, the CEO of Amazon, on the record saying that he brought this to the government. And not only, you know, this isn't the Pentagon. This is the Secretary of Treasury, Scott Bessett, who had been with Susie Wiles, the chief of staff, trying to mend fences with the executive branch in Anthropic. You know, there's a huge economic component to not only Anthropic, but also their IPO that is really kind of at odds here. And it seems like over those last three weeks, all of those people have soured with Anthropic as well. Yeah. The reporting seems to describe a tone of, hey, Dario, please help us out here.

9:58This looks bad. And Dario dismissing it. And there seems to be some frustration that he didn't take their concerns seriously. Well, you know, there's a great moment in some of the reporting that happened over the weekend where one thing is described very, very differently. The government says they were made very frustrated because they were urgently calling to speak with Dario Amodi. he was at a wellness retreat and it took them an hour to get him on the phone. And Anthropic says that is absolutely not true. He was not at a wellness retreat. He got in touch with the government as soon as he could, an hour after they first called.

10:40So like that is, when you talk about speaking different languages, I do think that that's the kind of stuff that is out there in plain sight. When, and to connect this to the supply chain designation issue, One of the big fights that apparently happened between a Modi and the Pentagon were was they were talking about when they would be able to deploy autonomous use of an anthropic model. And one of the hypotheticals was what if there is inbound missile attacks from a foreign country? And a Modi's response was, well, you can just call us. And so if that's the answer there and then it's, well, I'll get back to you in an hour at my earliest convenience, you know, that that is, I think, some of some of the delta here.

11:30it it seems to me that you know that dario has been kind of waving a banner that this stuff can be dangerous government you really should be taking a look at it and when the government's taking a look at it it's like ah no it's good i'll get back to you in an hour so it's you know i don't want to be an antic but it just seems like is the response here adequate it seems like Like it is like, you know, Justin, you said that, you know, what happened with them getting on the supply chain list, that was personalities. This is a bunch of people who run these companies saying there's a there's a there there.

12:08Somebody needs to be aware of this. It's notable. It's notable to see that the reaction from at least some of the other A.I. community is not the same as it was with the supply chain designation situation. You're not seeing widespread petitions. You saw the security researchers that Tom mentioned earlier. But this is not the same rallying to the cause that happened before where OpenAI got blistered for not saying anything fast enough and then doing a deal with the Pentagon. You saw hundreds and hundreds of employees from other AI labs sign on to say that this was an unfair thing. You're not seeing that with this.

12:45And part of it is, you know, if Anthropic was a lab that was founded out of a grievance that the Amodi siblings and other security researchers then at OpenAI had with Sam Altman. They did not trust him. They believed that they needed to go fund their own lab that was going to compete. And so they did. Now they're in a situation where then, you know, government contracts were part of the reason that they could fund that lab initially. Then they had a fight with some of the government contracts that they had. Now they have a fight with the White House. At a certain point, you have to wonder, is this a personality thing from the anthropic side?

13:29And does the current level of anthropic leadership have the capacity to deal with these kinds of relationships? Now, we should, of course, as we always do, point out that, Justin, you are an independent contractor who does some work for OpenAI. Yes. Mix that into the shill bucket. But I don't think that those facts are disputable. I mean, obviously, that is a core part. You know, Dario Modi said to, I believe, a CNBC interview that he left OpenAI because he did not trust Sam Altman. And, you know, that is a core part of their identity is that they wanted to go a different way. The question now that they are in the big leagues and they are mixing it up with the same kind of government contracts at the level of a lot of other big tech companies.

14:17In fact, I would say that they are, you know, in the lead in a lot of those capacities. How do they handle it? And within that is the fact that they are one third of this IPO triplet series that we are now one third done with with the SpaceX IPO launched that I know Scott Besson. When I first saw that Scott Besson and Howard Lutnick were getting involved in some of this stuff, that's not because of the tech stack. That's not because of the government. It's Commerce and Treasury. Yeah, that is that is Wall Street. These are Wall Street guys that know that there are banks, there are retirement funds, there are huge pillars of the American economy that are relying on SpaceX, OpenAI, and Anthropics IPOs to launch, launch big, and be secure.

15:08and you have to wonder, and this is, I was texting Tom about this. So this is my little tinfoil hat. I'm not saying this is for real, but Dario Modi would not be the first CEO that Wall Street looked at and said, maybe we need another person in there. Maybe they're the brilliant person that's driving the tech forward, but we need somebody else to talk to other adults. Google got one of those guys put on top of him. Mark Zuckerberg pushed back against having one of those guys put on top of him. I wonder whether or not this becoming as public as it has and the names that are attached to it are not either implicitly or explicitly in that direction to try and make Dario somebody that people around him that he trusts can talk to him and say, You don't want to deal with this.

16:10Let's put somebody else here that takes these calls. Yeah. I think it is worth kind of just reviewing real quickly. Amazon, big customer and partner points out that Fable 5, not Mythos. Everybody knows Mythos can do dangerous things. Fable 5 can do some proofs of concept that 40 security researchers say, well, sure, GPT 5.5 could do those too. and it looks odd. It looks odd to say, well, yes, Fable 5 is the defanged version of mythos, but it looks like you could also do these with Opus. And in fact, some people have demonstrated that you could do the ones that have been publicly described in Opus.

16:53So why would the friend do that? And I think you just gave us a very compelling theory that could fit those facts. It doesn't necessarily mean that's what's happening, but it's worth thinking about. There's also been details that have leaked out over the last 48 hours that this might not, this is closer to straw that broke the camel's back territory than it was a gigantic exploit, that there were some concerns about distillation from Chinese companies of mythos. Yeah, Semaphore had some good reporting on that. That maybe Anthropic did not take as seriously as their partners wanted or that the government wanted.

17:30And this is more of a pattern of behavior than it is a, that this exploit was the exploit of all exploits. And, and also for, for the record, you have not seen knock on follow on stories that other models are looking to get an export ban. Right. In fact, the administration has kind of said, we don't expect to do this to anybody else. Yeah. They've said that they want to lift this on Anthropic as soon as possible. Yeah. Uh, I thought it was notable today that the stories came out and they had named a talent from Anthropic that it was security researchers that were reported. The names were reported.

18:13It wasn't just people. Yeah. Logan Graham, Dave or Nicholas Carlini. I wonder whether or not that is what they want the narrative to be, hey, look, look at the great whispers to the government. Like they were able to handle this. That's who we're going to, that's whose number you're going to always be able to call. They'll be there in five minutes and come running and explain everything to you. I wonder, you know, Anthropic doesn't have a lot of those guys. Most of the, you know, there's like four people that get name checked at Anthropic. They don't usually give a lot of their other employees a lot of shine.

18:49I thought it was interesting and notable that that was the case. Well, Justin, thank you very much for helping us wrap our heads around what's going on with this. If people want to get your insights, you talked about this on your Sunday show, I know, where should they go? Of course, politics, politics, politics.com, where you need to go if you want to get the PX3 program twice a week for free, four times if you pay me money. Essential listening, as far as I'm concerned. Thank you, Justin. Thank you. DTNest is made possible by you, the listener. Thanks to Corey Cosart, Jeffrey Zilks, Alo, Adam L., and Phillip Less.

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22:28All right, there's more we need to know today. Let's get into the briefs. Fox said it has agreed to acquire Roku, combining Fox's live news and sports with the biggest platform for streaming and connected TVs. Both companies have successful ad-supported streaming services, Tubi and Roku channel, which they intend to continue to operate separately after the merger. Neither operates a Netflix-level paid subscription service. Fox has Fox 1 and Fox Nation, but they are both smaller in scope. Roku founder and CEO Anthony Wood will stay on at the combined company and join the board. They expect the bill to close in the first half of 2027.

23:03Yeah. So if anybody is confused by Fox, because I know if you don't follow this as closely as we do, you might be like, wait, didn't Disney buy Fox? Disney bought 20th Century Fox. And they got a lot in that, including a lot of the cable channels like FX. But Fox, the actual broadcast network, Fox News and Fox Sports all stayed together in a spinoff company that is called Fox. Fox also went out and bought Tubi, the ad-supported streaming service. And as Rob just mentioned, they have a couple of streaming services, Fox Nation for fans of Fox News and Fox One, which kind of pulls together the news and sports properties into one place.

23:43And it has some dramas on there as well. but Fox has been notable in that it hasn't put out a Peacock or a Disney plus or anything like that and it looks like this is an attempt to say we're not going to do that we want to make money as the platform where those people come and try to reach their users and we'll help them do that Fox of course you know has a very good ad streaming and ad selling engine and Roku has been developing into an advertising company over the past several years. So, Rob, I don't know. It feels like a match made in heaven. Yeah, this this is this is interesting because it's kind of like, OK, well, you keep we're going to keep doing what we've been doing.

24:23We don't need to put our own channel out, but we're going to go buy a really, really large platform in Roku. And we'll just allow you to put your stuff on our platform and take up, you know, take a few points off the top. And, you know, this is happening with Amazon Prime video. This is kind of happening to a lesser extent with, you know, with Apple TV. So this kind of makes sense. You know, are they trying to compete with Netflix? I don't think at this size. No, they aren't. But it is an interesting deal nonetheless, because they're competing without necessarily playing exactly the same game.

24:56Yeah, it's a good point to bring up Apple and Amazon, because now that I think about it, they both have original content strategies, right? Apple TV originals are very well regarded. And Amazon has very popular original series, you know, like the Lord of the Rings series that they put out as a way to get you into the tent and sell you the other things they have to sell you. With Amazon, it's everything in the world. Through Amazon retail, with Apple, it's iPhones and iPads and stuff like that. I think Fox has a really interesting offering to say, we've got live news in sports. I know Amazon and Apple are trying to build it.

25:30We've got it. And we've been doing it for a long time. so then you become the company it's like and then we'll sell you the roku box and probably you know the more successful arm these days is the roku operating system in roku tvs uh and i don't know if they then go try to acquire some other things to add to that stack but it is making fox seem more like they're getting into that business than they are into the business of just doing the content and i appreciate it because personally i am what you would call a serial churner it is not uncommon for me almost every month to sign up to something and to cancel something.

26:05And it used to be a time to where I literally had to have every app installed on a tablet or a phone so that I could, you know, then set a reminder, go check to see if you're watching anything and cancel. But now most of my content is coming either through Apple TV or Amazon Prime. So I still have the reminder to remind me to go look, but I've only got one place to go and cancel. And that seems like that would be something that could happen here as well. Yeah. Now, I think obviously we're not going to understand how this all comes together, assuming it is approved. I didn't see any red flags on it not being approved, but we won't see this come together until next year.

26:41But it, to me, is a signal that we are moving into that platform versus content provider delineation stage as we reassemble television from the smashed pieces that it has become over the past 10 years. So this was a fascinating one that I don't know about you, but I knew Roku was potentially looking for options for buyers. I didn't have Fox on the top of my list. You know, this is what this reminds me of. Back in the before times, in the old, old days, I don't know, eight, nine years ago, there used to be these things called cable companies, and you could just subscribe to them and you could get whatever you wanted to watch.

27:21It was a novel idea that no one had ever heard of before. And it seems like now that idea may be coming back. Man, if we can take the best of cable, which is that, right? Being able to have one platform where I manage my viewing, but keep the ability to not be tied to a region, like, oh, I can only get in Comcast because I live in Comcast and I can pick what I want to subscribe to so you can continue to be a serial churner, man, we could end up with the best of both worlds there. Absolutely. UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer announced Monday that the government will put forward a law to prohibit social media use for children younger than 16 years old.

28:00This is something that is being analyzed by a lot of countries and US states around the world. Australia, of course, the first to put in a very serious ban on children using social media. The UK's ban would include, they said this right off the top, even though they're just getting together the proposal, Snapchat, TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and X. They also would prohibit live streams and messaging between strangers on these platforms, which goes a little further than Australia's similar law. And they said it would not apply to Signal and WhatsApp or similar messaging only services.

28:39Prime Minister believes the law will be proposed by December and could be in place by next spring. The Prime Minister said, every parent can see it with their own eyes. Social media is making children unhappy. And he added, it could even be harming their mental health. Which I pulled out those parts of the quotes, Rob, because I think a lot of these laws are being put forward because every parent can see it with their own eyes, not because we have evidence of mental health harm. And that doesn't mean I'm against the laws, but I'm I'm worried that they are designed to address the parents fears versus the harm that's been done, because we're still studying what that harm is.

29:20I think both things could be happening simultaneously, because what it feels like, it feels like we're starting to look at social media companies like we looked at cigarette companies. um you know cigarette companies for a long long long time absolutely knew the harm the cigarettes could cause yet you still had joe camel you literally had cartoons with characters smoking in them um because if you can get them when they're young you can keep them when they're older that that that was you know kind of their motive operandi i'm not saying that the parallel is exact but it does feel like governments are starting to say hey we report after report after report after report says this stuff is not good for children.

30:03It's not even good for adults, but it's definitely not good for children. We need to do something about it. And that seems to be what's happening here. So as I said, I think that there is probably, you know, could you call it an overreaction? Maybe possibly, but I do think that there is a there there and that you are seeing governments are saying that, Hey, we, we, we need to do something here because it doesn't look like this is really good for children to just have them having unfettered access to social media. Yeah. It's a little difficult to do the cigarette analogy because there are fewer benefits to nicotine, although there are some.

30:35And certainly it wasn't limited to just harming children in that case. With social media, I also don't think it's limited to just harming children. And I think that is continuing to be studied. There are also reports that don't get as much headlines because they're not as popular for people to hear that there are benefits to children of social media when properly implemented. There are things that cause bonding and advancement of the intellectual process and the ability to make friends and expand your social circles, which are good. And that's not me saying, so don't ban it. That's me saying, we don't want to reduce those effects.

31:13If we can come up with a system that preserves those effects while reducing the negative effects, that's important. But I think there's a little bit of a rush, especially by governments to say, people are mad, let's just ban it all, which, you know, that's not unusual, happens all the time. But I think there should be a look at maybe down the road after you pass this law, what are the things that we are losing from that? What are the negative effects to that? Yeah, go ahead. I was going to say that is actually a really good point. And one of the reasons for that is because negativity sells. It's like if it's negative, it's going to hold the news cycle more so than the thing that is positive that may never make it.

31:52So that is a part of it. But I do think that there is a there there. So, you know, is it that are the governments, are they overreacting to what the there is? That probably is the thing that we need to study. I'd argue that the governments are just reacting. They're like, I don't know, people are mad. It'll be popular if we do this. Let's do it, right? People are overreacting. The governments are just reacting to it. Yeah, yeah. And then the last piece that always comes in with these is, are they effective? Can you stop the children from actually doing the thing, even if you do find that it's harmful?

32:29And in Australia, they so far have mixed results. A lot of kids are able to get around it. It has reduced kids using this sort of thing. And the UK is saying, and I think it's reasonable to say, like, we've seen what Australia does. And now we can learn from that and make the restrictions more effective. And maybe they can. Yeah. And I think these these laws literally will take years to really see, because ultimately what you have like the kids that were using it yesterday, but can't today are still using it today. They're going to figure out a way to get what they want. The win here for kids not using is the is the eight year old that just never starts.

33:06That's that's where the win is. And it's going to take a while to see that it's going to you know, it's going to take 10 years before that eight year old is 18 and are now adult. and you can look and see what those differences and how they use social media actually is. So I think that we're a little early on, here are the outs of results. It's been six months in the case of Australia. Yeah. All right, real quickly, I want to tell folks about Live With It. It is a show we have developed within Daily Tech News Show that reviews products based on us owning them, buying them, living with them. Rob got a MacBook Neo and lived with it and was able to report back, okay, I have found that this is what it seems to be good for.

33:49It now has its own YouTube channel and its own Patreon. So if you're a patron of DTNS, you're probably used to getting this. After July, it is off on its own. So if you want to continue to get Live With It, or if you never heard of it before and you're like, I want to check it out, go support it on YouTube. Just search Live With It, or head to our Patreon for it, patreon.com slash livewithit.

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35:50All right, let's get to some quick headlines that are just good to know. These are the kinds of things that make you look smart if you know them. Google has built a flight simulator into the web version of Google Earth. If you want to fly around the virtual globe, you select explore then tools and choose flight simulator how very microsoft of them to put a flight simulator easter egg and something uh bloomberg's mark german says comments at wwdc from siri engineering chief mike rockwell combined with information from german's own sources lead him to believe that apple's planning to develop an open claw like agent that would run apple devices for you this obviously would come down the road german also believes apple might eventually charge for certain features like conversations or image generation in Siri and reported that code still exists in the iOS 27 beta that would let you switch between ChatGPT, Claude and Gemini as an extension of Siri.

36:46Siri's still trained and built on Gemini, but right now you can actually have it default over like AskChatGPT. And German said they didn't take out that code and it still could let you choose between ChatGPT Cloud and Gemini. That's actually kind of cool. It gives the end user the opportunity to choose the model that they want, which is I'm definitely pro-choice. That could be cool. The first person to lose their job in the Xbox restructuring is Xbox Game Studios head Craig Duncan. Xbox Game Studios Chief of Staff Luis O 'Connor is reportedly also stepping down. Meanwhile, the information reports that Microsoft is weighing the idea of spinning out Xbox into a joint venture with another partner.

37:28Fox. Fox. No, I'm just kidding. It's not going to be Fox. Who would that be? That would probably be a gaming company. It would have to be a gaming company. That is a fundamental change in the way that these things work. There's Nintendo. There's Sony. There's Xbox. That's just, you think of those companies. If it's Xbox, someone else, that'll be a very different view of the world of gaming. What if their joint venture partner is Sony? Blow everybody's minds. Electronic Arts has launched EA Advertising, a new way for companies to buy advertising within gameplay. So this happens already, but it's a way to make it easier for companies to do it.

38:09That includes the signs you see on stadiums when you're playing sports games, as well as custom in-game content. Yeah, and it's definitely, this is an area that's going to just get bigger and bigger and bigger. People spend so much time there that it makes sense for the billboard to actually be a real ad in the real world. Yeah, yeah. ByteDance is in talks to ByteChips for its data centers from Shanghai GPU maker Ilvatar Core X, which would lessen its dependence on NVIDIA. Yeah, that's an intriguing one. Also, Loft Orbital's YAM-9 satellite used a visual language model based on Gemma 3, Google's open source model, from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory to identify areas of interest in orbital images in response to a natural language query.

38:53So they basically just typed in like, find this, and then Loft Orbital used the model and said, hey, I found it for you. It's the first time a satellite has found an answer to a question all on its own. It's pretty cool. when chrome 150 arrives on june 30th it will no longer contain a flag keeping manifest v2 extensions alive which will disable all content blockers for ads trackers and malicious content that rely on dynamic filtering including ublock origin yeah so when that person on uh july 1st says hey why is my ad blocker not working now you can tell them why uh pwc says that hiring in the UK rose 61 % for employers looking for workers to use AI tools in existing roles.

39:34So in other words, we want you to be a paralegal or whatever, but we want you to be able to use ChatGPT. Are you good at it? If you are, we'll hire you. Those kinds of jobs grew by 66 ,000 during the year, while jobs for AI developers, people actually making tools, grew by 2 ,600. So So jobs requiring AI skills were more in demand than jobs creating the AI. And jobs requiring AI skills now command an average wage premium of 34.2%. That's up 11 % from a year ago. Probably not a bad idea to take one of those free AI courses that you can get pretty much anywhere online these days. Yeah. Well, folks, we end every episode of Daily Tech News Show with some shared perspectives.

40:18today, Mike has an insightful parallel to Apple's disagreement with the EU about Siri AI. Yeah, I had a great conversation over the weekend with Patrick Beja about the EU and Siri and why it's not launching in the EU. And Mike wrote, fantastic session on Siri and the EU DMA. Two things come to mind. Firstly, the EU has correctly, I think, decided that this is a foundational change to how iOS works. And as such, Apple needs to be counseled to not build in walls to others. Such changes can be built with an assumption of only one privileged user, the easiest to achieve, and hence the quickest to market, or designed with equality and plurality of access as a foundation goal.

40:58Much more difficult to do, but in the end, a more competition-friendly outcome. Secondly, I see a striking parallel with the fight that the EU had with Microsoft over access to ring zero of the Windows kernel for antivirus agents. Microsoft tried on the angle that it was too risky to open this up. And clearly, in my view, says Mike, this was a less complex solution. But after EU pressured, they developed a mechanism, thus allowing for competitors. I would argue here that the EU DMA achieved a robust and competitive outcome. Big thanks to you both for such a thoughtful, engaging discussion. Kindness regards, Mike.

41:36Yeah, this this one is interesting. It's going to I am anxious to see how Apple works this out. They're not going to seed the market. It's massive for them. So they're going to figure it out. And my gut tells me eventually they're just going to say, OK, let's just figure out how to work with it. What do we need to build into this to satisfy the law? That's what has happened in the past. That's probably what's going to happen here. Patrick, spoiler, if you haven't seen Patrick Beja's conversation with me over the weekend, everybody out there. But the end prediction from Patrick is he thinks as soon as this comes out of beta, it's available.

42:13in the EU that they're just buying time. Maybe even sooner. Yeah. Well, folks, we love to know what you're thinking about. So if you've got some insights into a story, please, please, please share it with us at feedback at daily tech news show.com. Big thanks to Justin Robert Young for popping in and helping us understand stuff. Thanks to Mike for contributing to today's show. And thank you for being along for daily tech news show. You're the folks who keep us in business. So if you haven't already, please become a patron, give some value back for the value you get here at patreon.com. slash DTNS.

42:54The DTNS family of podcasts. Helping each other understand. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

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