Is Obsolescence Planned, or is It Natural? - DTNS 5356

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2:54Jenn Cutter: Welcome to the Daily Tech News Show, Big Tech Question Edition, where we look at the tech news this week and ask what it means. I'm your referee, Tom Merritt. This week, the big questions are, do companies plan obsolescence on purpose? Should you get permission before summarizing a conversation with AI? And is there a need for smart glasses? Joining us here to draw the top tech news of the week, Len Peralta is on board. He'll be illustrating our discussions. But first, today's tech news with me and Sarah Lane.

3:28Sarah Lane: Motorola posted a teaser for a new device coming September 22nd. With the line, a new perspective is coming and close-up shots of different materials. Now, Android Authority suspects that this is the Signature 27. That's the follow-up to the Motorola Signature that launched back in January. Motorola has also been using that same tagline on signup pages, and a previous teaser showed up on the U.S. homepage. So a U.S. launch seems possible, but that's not confirmed yet.

3:59Jenn Cutter: An independent agent verification organization called the Advanced AI Society has announced it joined the Linux Foundation as well as the Linux Foundation's decentralized trust. The society also released version one of a working draft of proof of control for public comment. It hopes to provide an independent way to verify agent controls.

4:21Sarah Lane: Waymo is expanding to Singapore with its first Jaguar I-PACE vehicles arriving over the next few months. Those are the ones that you've seen around if they're in your neighborhood. The company plans to manually drive the cars around Singapore in 2027 to map roads, adapt to local weather, road geometry, then offer public rides in 2028 through the Waymo app. If you're keeping score, Waymo's Tokyo rollout still on track with commercial rides expected in 2027.

4:52Jenn Cutter: Anthropic has established a biology research lab in the San Francisco area. I imagine no one will have a problem with this. Anthropic's head of life sciences, Eric Cotterer-Abrams, told Reuters, we believe that to do biology, the final test is still and will be for a while in real lab work. While the lab is in the early stages of automation, he did say that human oversight remains essential for safety. Anthropic launched Claude Science in June, which, among other things, may be used for drug discovery, which seems to be what they want this lab to do.

5:24Sarah Lane: Reuters sources also say Apple Pay is expected to launch in India next month, starting with Axis Bank credit cards. Apple's been also talking with HDFC Bank and ICICI Bank, but hasn't finalized commercial terms with them yet, reportedly. This looks like a card-based launch, not Unified Payments Interface, also known as UPI support in India. That's important because UPI account for more than 84 % of digital payment volume in the country.

5:55Jenn Cutter: Yeah, they're going to have to get UPI integrated if they want adoption of that. But, you know, making progress, I guess. As part of OpenAI's bug hunting program, a team of security researchers from Hacktron AI used Claude on Opus 5 in the end to gain access to an OpenAI employee's chat GPT account, which would have let them read OpenAI's private software. They didn't do it, but they said, we saw that we could have had access. One flaw they used was in an unpatched version of image magic being used by a third-party message board called Discourse, which they chained to another flaw in OpenAI's own software.

6:32Jenn Cutter: They alerted Discourse, Discourse patched its flaw on July 27th, and OpenAI paid the team$6 ,500 for finding the bug in the OpenAI software.

6:41Sarah Lane: Ooh, what are you going to do with all that money?

6:43Jenn Cutter: I don't know.

6:44Sarah Lane: Google announced early access to Home MCP, that's home support for the model context protocol, so that third-party AI agents can read and control Google Home devices. That can include device history, cameras, speakers, lights, thermostats, dashboards, but Google is blocking certain sensitive actions like unlocking doors. For now, it's limited to Google Home premium advanced subscribers in the US, limited to English, and setup still sounds like an early developer feature.

7:14Jenn Cutter: We got a lot of headlines about these internal documents unsealed in the copyright case that the New York Times is a part of against Microsoft and OpenAI, about using news publications for training data. They're very salacious. They show that executives at the companies were aware of copyright issues, which, I mean, shocker, but Microsoft Director of Applied Science, Brent Hecht, apparently was one of the lone voices of disagreement with his colleagues, saying that scraping news data for training was not fair use, while a lot of his colleagues had been saying it was. ChatGPT head Nick Turley wrote in an internal message that news publishers would face an existential threat.

7:53Jenn Cutter: And another Microsoft document warned of a doom loop if chatbots drove out the news publishers whose content was needed to improve the performance of the models. None of this is going to be determinative, but it is going to be a way to show whether they were trying to undermine the marketplace, any of those fair use defenses they might bring. And the case has not gone to trial yet. This is part of the parties seeking pretrial rulings. U.S.

8:19Sarah Lane: Representative Daryl Issa introduced a bill that would let copyright holders seek court orders requiring Internet service providers, domain name system providers and virtual private networks to block foreign piracy sites. The proposal would apply to services with at least 100 ,000 monthly U.S. users or subscribers. There are some exceptions. Root name server operators, top level domain registries, and local Wi-Fi networks at places like a library or a restaurant, they would be excluded from this. Supporters say it targets fast moving piracy. Critics say it creates overly broad blocking infrastructure based on accusations.

8:59Jenn Cutter: And as we all know, piracy is the number one threat that the U.S. should be dealing with right now. Scientists at Stanford have made the first direct observation of a quantum jump in a mechanical resonator, which you're going to see described as a quantum jump in sound because, you know, sound resonates. A quantum unit of sound is called a phonon and represents a coordinated movement of a group of atoms altogether. I mean, that's what sound is. It's atoms vibrating. This behavior could be useful for developing quantum computing. It could also help solve error correction problems specifically in quantum computing.

9:37Jenn Cutter: And it could be used to develop improvements for sound in our everyday devices as well. DTNS Live is made possible by you. Thanks to all of you, including Ali Sanjabi, AB Puppy, Dale Mulcahy, and Scott Thomas. Thank you.

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13:24Jenn Cutter: All right, it's time for the big tech question of the week. Apple released its new operating system, all of its new operating systems this week. That, of course, has lots of people complaining about performance and battery life, because new operating systems take time to re-index and fully install. So that drives down your battery life temporarily. Usually they go back to normal performance and battery drain in less than a week, but it always brings up the questions. Do companies intentionally plan their products to go obsolete after several years to get people to upgrade? You can vote on which side you would join in our poll at patreon.com slash DTNS.

14:00Jenn Cutter: Go click on that. It's right there at the top. taking the position of, yeah, they kind of do, is Molly Wood. Thank you, Molly Wood, for joining us. Hello. What a treat. On the side of, no, it's not something they pursue as a main goal, Roger Chang. Hello. And Amos. Hi. And in the swing seat, listening to the arguments on both sides, is Jen Cutter. Welcome, Jen. and then Sarah Lane.

14:34Sarah Lane: Yep. I'm swinging. I'm swinging. Keep swinging. Swinging.

14:40Jenn Cutter: You miss 100 % of the swings you don't take, right? Isn't that what they say?

14:45Sarah Lane: That's what everybody says.

14:46Jenn Cutter: Everybody always saying that constantly. I'm Tom Merritt. I'm your referee. We are going to start off with Molly telling us her side of the story. Molly got two minutes, so go for it. All right. I love that we need a referee in case it's going to get that out of hand. I actually think that it is pretty incontrovertible that companies not only plan on, but depend on planned obsolescence. And I think it's not necessarily malice, but it is business. And I would argue that a lot of us certainly in the United States right now are feeling like business is kind of malice, especially as earnings pressure gets higher and higher.

15:25My strongest proof for planned obsolescence is forward guidance in the form of earnings calls. Like if a company tells you quite directly, we plan to sell more devices and selling those devices is in fact essential to the future of business, then they are 100 % planning on obsolescence. And I know that sounds a little like splitting hairs and like I'm dodging the question of whether they engineer that. I would say, again, are we maliciously engineering obsolescence? Not necessarily. We have, however, flooded the ecosystem, and I mean that quite literally, with, in some cases, inexpensive devices and components that may not be designed to fail, but their failure is inevitable because their replacement is assured.

16:14Separate from that, I do think there are technology developments that have ensured some level of obsolescence. I'll just note that many of them were pioneered by Apple. The primary driver here is repairability. Once components were glued in, once potentially repairing a device or replacing those components voided your warranty, then again, failure was inevitable. that was obsolescence by design and the rest of the market followed. I mean, Apple had to be sued into repairability. And then the release cycle itself is so rigorous that companies inevitably drift toward engineering for the latest and greatest hardware and software.

16:57Apple doesn't necessarily mandate from its app developers that they drop support for older hardware, but it does require them to be built with the current year's SDK and design system. Microsoft does the same thing. Apple and Google also pressure their app developers to use the most recent requirements. And yes, you can say that that is all about security and all of those things. But all of that is because these businesses 100 % only exist as long as they sell more devices and services.

17:30Jenn Cutter: That was like perfectly timed. Really? I still got my radio vibes. I was like watching the clock go down. I'm like, oh my gosh. He's like, she's not going to make it. Yeah. Hot damn. Okay. That was not the sound effect I want. I'm going to try a different one for the next one. That timer one stressed me out. I was like, oh God, I have to get out of bed. Is that an alarm? It reset to a different one. So we'll try a different one. But Roger and Amos, I don't know if you're joining in on the opening statement or not, but you all have two minutes starting now. No, it would be my opening statement.

18:09And I rest my case. But listen, I will concede. Actually, I don't even concede it. I agree with Molly. Businesses are in the business to make money. And if it means selling something that people want more of, then yeah. So this is my take. If we never really advanced any of the software we use, we'd all be using WordStar to punch up reports or book reports or whatever. We would still be clicking through a bunch of GIF flooded pages with obnoxious noises and really ugly color schemes. Because why upgrade? Why update any of that? But the thing is, as soon as you give something that has the taste of the future, that gives either convenience stylistically, it feels a little more modern.

18:55It doesn't feel so hidebound to past concepts of aesthetics. uh people are always gonna go for it i mean fashion is all about that now you can say we could you know businesses could just sort of just draw the line and all agree that nothing needs to be updated but the truth of the matter is when you have security breaches with smartphones uh with servers with software with operating systems yeah you want to keep updating it because you don't want to keep leaving a swiss cheese of firewalls and security breaches just waiting to happen because, oh, people can't upgrade. So this is the thing. I have an old 2012 MacBook Pro.

19:36I can open it up. I can swap out the optical disk drive. I swapped out the memory and I swapped out the drive at least five times. I went from a large, from the 256 to a 512 and then to a one terabyte SSD on the span of three years. At some point, the machine is too slow. It does not run the software that I need to do my work. So I need to upgrade. Now, my argument isn't that things don't go obsolete. My argument is that companies don't go in thinking, let's just make this so it's just a little bit shy of where everyone wants it to be. We'll sell it at this price point. And then in five years, they need to upgrade to something else.

20:21I think the advancement of technology, the advancement of software, the advancement of people's tastes dictate that you neither change or you just get left behind on the rubbish heap of business. And I think, yeah, that is a form of obsoletism.

20:38Jenn Cutter: Okay, that is the time for the opening statement. We're now able to take a few minutes for open discussion. I'll let you all know when we need to move on. Amos, I don't know if you want to jump in here on this side or Molly, if you've got some responses to what Roger said, we could start there.

21:00I'm going to go a little bit further back then. I think what Roger was saying is kind of on the right track. And what Molly said is valid in a bubble. But if you expand past that, why are companies doing what they do? Why is it that they are continually innovating and therefore having technologies that are left behind? Are companies making things to where, yes, this is definitely going to break in two years. I don't think they are at all. I think they are continuing to innovate and bring new features in. And when you do that, certain features are going to get left behind. Certain products are going to get left behind because that's the nature of what we're doing.

21:37And if you want to look at the root cause of it, it's not the companies saying, hey, we need to keep selling products. It's the consumer saying, hey, I continually want something new to buy. So it's not the companies trying to say we need to stay in business is the company is responding to the demand of the consumer saying they want something new and they want something more stylish or faster or more powerful. And in that process, you have things that need to be left behind. Are there some areas where they could improve the longevity of their devices? Sure, but that's not a money-making move. What they're doing is trying to innovate for the new sale as opposed to trying to design their products to where it's intentionally going to not be there five years from now.

22:27Now, there's where I have to jump in with you because I think on some level, Amos and I made 80 % the same argument. And to Roger's point, I'm not, again, I think this is business, not malice, right? The obsolescence is guaranteed because things will continue to get better. The part of Amos's argument, though, that I have to take issue with is that Apple is just Apple, right, is legendarily the most successful marketing company in history. Consumers in a vacuum, in a bubble, don't want a new thing until a company comes along and says, you have to have this new thing. You need this new thing. Nobody was sitting there being like, man, I wish that I had a hunk of metal that played and stored 50 ,000 songs.

23:21Like nobody was thinking, you know, God, I wish it was more convenient for me.

23:24Jenn Cutter: That's the famous Steve Jobs line, right? They don't know what they want until we tell them. Exactly. Which has always been the case with companies. They come along and they're like, you have to have this thing. And we go like, oh, my God, I totally have to have that thing. I mean, that's the thing. I totally agree with you, Molly. But that's business. That's not planned obsolescence. That's like, hey, I see an opening of a market. I think they have to be. Because business doesn't exist without obsolescence.

23:49Sarah Lane: If you don't trust a company and say if they want their business to grow, like Molly was saying, here's what we are expecting in Q2 of this year. We're going to sell all these new devices. I don't know. I mean, sure, that's business. But it can also be malice at the same time. Yeah, I mean, capitalism is extractive. I think that's where we're right. But this is the thing. The thrust of the argument is that these products— It wants your money. I mean, this is the thing. Computers' computational devices are a different breed than a wine opener, right? I have the same wine opener I got over at Ernest & Gala when my mom and dad went through the tour back in, like, 1995.

24:30Like, you know, you get them on the way out. It works fine. I can't believe you haven't lost it yet. I don't need a new wine opener. But you see what I mean? Does it work as well as your microwave used to? Well, see, that's the other thing. You could say my microwave literally just dissolved. Like the housing just disintegrated. But that's not planned obsolescence. That's just being subject to excessive wear because I eat a lot of my food served by Chef Mike. And so I mean – but this is the thing. Like, yeah, Apple is a great marketing company. But marketing is only half of it, right? Right. Granted, people were encouraged to buy rocks and treat them like pets in the 70s.

25:10And we call them pet rocks. Mood rings. There's a bunch of things that you can sell people all the time. But you cannot run a successful tech company as long as Apple has if you did not provide a service or a device that actually fulfilled those promises. Sure. I mean, where I think the planning comes in respectfully, where I think the planning comes in is that like a company with enough money in the bank could absolutely design to the best of their ability. Right. They could be like, this is going to be the most long lasting, the most backwards compatible. And we're going to make sure that every app maker conforms to these standards.

25:51And we are going to design the frigate. Like, have you ever heard the Neil Stevenson College address where he talks it's a commencement address? And he talks about how we 100 % could easily build a tower that goes to space. Like, we could do that. We have everything that we need to do that. We just don't have the will and we don't know who would pay for it. a company that sells you electronics requires on past sales to fund future developments. Like they know that things can continue to get better, but they're not incentivized because we live in a capitalist system with quarterly reports. They are not incentivized to build the most futuristic, best tower to space that is technically possible to build.

26:31There's no reason for them to do that because they need to sell. So the incentives start to encourage a little bit of like laziness. Well, the thing is, yeah, you could do it. But the problem is, what if you hit the wrong mark? Oh, I decided to go with HD DVD instead of Blu-ray. And suddenly now I have a product that gets orphaned before its time. Because Blu-ray had better marketing. It's great to think, Buck Rogers, let's go send Gil Gerard in the 25 centuries in the future. But the problem is we don't know because we are living in the present. We can't figure out what the future is. I will say this.

27:08Apple's products all conformed to Steve Jobs' original desire, which was the computer as an appliance. He originally designed the original Macintosh not to be user accessible because that's all the person needs. You turn it on, you turn it off, you have the keyboard. I mean, that's why the floppy had a motorized system to take your disk in and spit it out. And Steve Wozniak famously disagreed with that because you could not upgrade your own components and tinker with your own devices and own your own stuff. So I'm just saying over time, what looks like what over time, what is smart business starts to feel like malice to consumers on the other end.

27:47We're like a new iPhone comes out every year. A new two thousand dollar device appears every single year, every, you know, every other year, because the incentive is to design for that thing instead of the thing in the past. Then people start to feel abused. I'm not saying they things are designed to die. but there's there's so many things in the product chain to go into making the camera the software the in the integrated circuits right the the socs you can apple doesn't build them right it has to wait for tsmc develop the two nanometer process to make the a22 a20 pro because they're not swap that out once a new one comes i mean i mean like if your argument is that consumers are wasteful sure but that's not the same thing as you know maliciously planning a product to go okay this phone now to be fair molly said she didn't think it was malice no i don't know but but but but i'm saying like if if if i sat down and said like hey this credit card will no longer work in five years you know so people will have to go out and buy a new credit card i mean that It actually does happen.

29:01Sarah Lane: Dude. That may not be your best example. I mean, listen, in the United States, again, I'm talking about capitalism. 80 % of gross domestic product is consumer spending. Yeah, because that's what you want. There is no universe. No, it is not. It is because we have artificially decided that that's how we measure growth in an economy. So the inevitable result of measuring growth in an economy based on consumer spending is that you are going to need consumers to spend more and more and more. And so then you are going to tell them you need this, you need that, you got to have this other thing, this thing.

29:35Jenn Cutter: Roger, do you disagree that the system is set up to encourage consumers to spend? Yes, I totally believe that, right? Yeah. OK. So so you guys are in agreement on like, yes, the system is leaning towards let's figure out ways to get consumers to buy. I would get further into the economics of it because I disagree with Molly, because you actually do want to you do. I mean, the EU's, you know, GDP, a bulk of the GDP is still, you know, internal consumer spending and then export. Right. But you guys generally agree that the system is trying to without getting into the economic rabbit hole. But in this direct question of whether or not, you know, Apple goes in and says, you know, Federici, make sure this thing doesn't work in three years.

30:18I never said that. I don't think I do not think that. So, Molly, clarify. We agree.

30:23Jenn Cutter: You're not thinking Craig Federici is in there like, ha ha, let's make it break. But re-describe what you were saying earlier. on what you think we're going to do. Yeah, what I'm saying is that the incentives lead to a system in which obsolescence is guaranteed by the business cycle. It is, in fact, required for the ongoing success of the business. And I would argue, yeah, but the last time society was flat was like the medieval period during feudal society. I don't think we need... Okay, but that's an economic argument. Let's stick to the planned obsolescence argument, which is... But that's what I'm saying.

30:58It's like your argument is that, yeah, the economic system sort of encourages people to consume and buy new stuff, not disagreeing with you at all. But if you're saying that, you know, Apple is creating an iPhone, creating a tablet or a MacBook or whatever, an iPad, just so it, you know, starts, it stops working around like the five-year mark. Make sure it's the five-year mark, but after that, just, you know. That's quite specifically not what I'm saying. That is specifically not what I'm saying. Could Could they design an iPad that wouldn't die after five years? Absolutely. They certainly could.

31:34But I'm not saying it's malice. I'm just saying it's business. But that's the thing is at some point people want something faster because there's new features that are included with software. It's not like all the feature set is baked in from like when man stepped out of a cave, right? It's literally iteration after iteration after. People come up with new ideas. I mean, heaven forbid people have an imagination. You know what that is? Planned obsolescence. Imagination. Good ideas are planned obsolescence. Snuffle up a guess, you get off Sesame Street because no imagination. I'm just saying obsolescence is a guarantee.

32:09You plan on it. You know what else gets obsolete people? Because once you get past 35, your body starts to flip through. We're saying the same thing, Roger. I'm just saying is that... Retirement homes plan on the obsolescence of the human body. Yes. that is a guarantee like it's not even an argument it's just a guarantee yeah i know and that is just the only question is how you get there if your your argument is

32:34Jenn Cutter: that things go all right roger i don't know if you could hear that but there's a timer going on so uh i think we i think we've got some good arguments that have been made uh and we'll hand it over to sarah and jen on the swing seat side do you have any any more questions before you uh make up your mind or or you can stay in the swing seat it's comfy there i don't know i don't know I definitely have a question because there are two things that are arguing in my brain about this. So I have my backup phones and iPhone 11, but it's still on iOS 17 and it still functions as a phone and it still does the things I need it to do right now.

33:09And my watch series eight is end of life. And I know it's going to do the things internal to the phone and to the watch. But the apps I use like for hockey tracking aren't going to support it very soon, but still functions. The stuff on the watch will continue to work, so it still does the things I bought it for. And then there's Microsoft and Windows. I do not have a machine capable of running Windows 11 just because of the TPM module. It can run it fine, which I know because I've done the backdoor way to put it on. That feels more malicious to me because TPM is not like a huge factor in most people using Windows 11.

33:46So that feels like a forced upgrade, a forced hardware upgrade, which felt really weird from the Windows standpoint. So that makes me think, I don't want to call it full malice, but it's like, yeah, it's kind of a dick move. Yeah. So like, where would you like fall on that? Yeah. On that side of the spectrum.

34:05Jenn Cutter: It feels like Molly's just like, yeah, sister. Roger, what about you? So my argument is, and then just don't use Windows. Use a different operating system. I have been experimenting with Bazite and Pop! OS. I have a laptop from 2013 that works fine with Linux on it. I mean, it doesn't do everything I need it to do. No. Does it play games? Not even close. But if I need something to get on the web, if I need something to send an email, if I need something that weighs 10 pounds and that fits in my backpack because my shoulders aren't buffed enough, yeah, I can lug that around. But at the same time, I understand that technology has moved on.

34:42There are new services. There are new features. There are new things that people want to do, right? People want thin and light. You know, my Dell Precision 4800 from 2015 weighs 10 pounds. It's neither thin nor light. It weighs 10 pounds? Yeah. Wow. It's huge. Is that a business unit? You must be. I know. We're like, wait, tell us more. We're off the rails. Like, wait, what? Really? 10 pounds? Like, where did you get that thing? It's a mobile workstation. It's designed like as a big fat battery, as a big fat case. It's designed to be opened up. I can replace the screen. I can replace the keyboard.

35:19But the thing is, it's running five generation, six generation old Intel processors. So it's not going to be the speediest or the fastest as an NVIDIA.

35:31Sarah Lane: But your point is that it wasn't planned obsolescence. It wasn't planned obsolescence. Because you can still use it. I can still use it. But it doesn't do all the things that are available now. It doesn't have all the nice, shiny, you know, fun. You know, you could drive a Model T, right? but you're not going to get power windows. You don't have CarPlay. You don't have CarPlay, right? And you're definitely not going to get a cup holder. I mean, you could fashion without a Bentley wire if you wanted to. But, you know, and air conditioning, you could forget it. I mean, the Model T would barely move.

36:02Roll the window down. You're good. Or push the front window down, the windshield down. Yeah.

36:06Sarah Lane: So as somebody still in the swing seat, I'll just say I had a conversation with a friend the other day right after going back to Apple, after Apple's latest iPhone announcement. And he asked me, you know, like, Sarah, you're the Apple expert. And I'm like, Oh, okay, what is it? He said, why did they go aluminum for the iPhone 18 Pro rather than titanium? And I was like, don't have a great answer for you right now. But I can certainly look into it. And he said, well, I heard because of course, you know, the internet has thoughts that it's because because titanium overheats. And so they're going with aluminum, but aluminum will break more easily.

36:46Sarah Lane: And that's a lot of the issues that people have with the 17 pro. And don't you think that's weird that Apple would give you a product that's going to break more easily. And I was, again, I was like, I mean, you can say that Apple did that on purpose so that you break your phone. And if you don't have Apple care, then you have to buy a new one. I doubt that's the case. I'm sure it's more of a cost-cutting measure. No, titanium is much more expensive than that. Right. So, you know, it's, it's, people do feel this way about lots of thermal management issue,

37:19Jenn Cutter: which is another concern as those processors get faster. I think people do feel this way. And I do think that it is the result of an incentive system that starts to prioritize new over lasting. And I don't think there's any argument that our consumer-based society prioritizes new over lasting. Like we know that from fast fashion. We know that from somebody made the point in the chat actually about Game Boys, you know, which were initially designed to be as cheap as possible. So the games would be as cheap as possible. And so as those incentives start to feel out of alignment, like it feels out of balance, you just don't trust.

37:54And honestly, like if I put to you as a hypothetical, let's say you have limited resources, right? Nobody has unlimited resources, even Apple or Microsoft, you have limited resources. Your job is to produce new devices and new services for people to buy. And your business depends on that. And you have to make choices. Where are your choices inevitably going to start to lead you? I mean, yeah, I mean, that's a critique on capitalism. Great. But I do not think it's - Well, yes, it is. But also - It is not just that. It is, no. My point is, given in a world of limited resources where you have a job and that job is to sell new things, then your priorities are inevitably going to be towards supporting those new things.

38:42At the expense, accidentally or otherwise, of the old things. Yeah, but at some point, those old things cannot support all the new things that you want, right? We don't go rolling around in carbureted V8s because there's a number of issues, at least among them, like emissions issues. I'm not saying that things shouldn't get better. What I'm saying is that over time, you will start to prioritize new things over old things, and you won't necessarily make the new things all the way as good as they could be because you know you're going to make some more new things after that.

39:15Jenn Cutter: Although one thing that no one has brought up, and I just want to suggest it, is if you aren't making your new thing as good as it can be, and a competitor does, then they drive you out of the business. So my question to Molly then is, do you think that the reason you're seeing that incentive is there's not enough of that competition? 100%. Yes. I mean, right? In a duopoly, in a limited marketplace, like no question. This is a conversation Tom and I have been having for two decades now, right? Competition 100 % worsens the problem of planned obsolescence because you only have to be better than one competitor.

39:58And you can make up the difference with marketing.

40:01Jenn Cutter: All right. We have started to relitigate again. So swing seats. You guys have had a chance to ask questions. Do you have another one you want to get in? or are we ready to decide our positions? I guess one more thought about along the lines of companies kind of being mean about stuff people have. Games, all the cloud stuff. PlayStation users lost a lot of movies. A lot of cloud games still work right now, except on the original Switch. Games that were running on Nintendo servers that, granted, in no way could run on the original Switch anyway. you can't play anymore. You bought them, you got to use them for those couple years, and now they're gone.

40:46That feels like planned obsolescence. And I'm worried about game passes the same way.

40:51Jenn Cutter: Seems like you may have left your swing seat, Jen. Yeah. It's like, in my particular fields, it's like, okay, yeah, I feel like I'm getting taken advantage of at this point. The game space, no question. Sarah, are you still swinging? Are you ready to jump off?

41:10Sarah Lane: I'm swinging. Yeah. I think everybody made very good points. I, you know, that whole business versus malice. I don't, I don't think we're going to figure that out right now. I think that there's, there, there is truth to both. If you don't trust a company, sure, they absolutely can do something like that. And that's just up to you as a consumer or, you know, anybody who's buying any product that is on offer to say, you know, this company is going to screw me over in a couple of years versus this company is not going to. Repairability, very good point by Molly. Repairability is better than it was, but again, had to go through the court system for companies who were screwing people over, again, to use that term in that way to say, okay, you're right, We'll do it differently going forward and give people more of an option to keep their devices longer.

42:08Sarah Lane: So I really don't I don't I'm swinging.

42:12Jenn Cutter: Yeah, you're still swinging. I think I would like to sum up the conversation here, which was very good. Thank you, Molly, Roger and Amos for an excellent exploration of all the angles on here. I heard and we started to have to stop talking past each other. Roger and Amos making a very good argument that they don't plan obsolescence into the device. And Molly made a very good advocation for, but they plan for obsolescence. And so, you know, I think I don't know that either of those sides is wrong. And I think that gives you a fuller picture of what's going on here, which is like, no, they don't maliciously.

42:58Jenn Cutter: And we all agreed on that. They don't maliciously say, ha ha, let's make it break in a year. But there is an incentive for them to try to make you want to get the new one and feel like your old one is obsolete. So that is good stuff. Thank you, everybody, for a good conversation on that. Before we move on to our next topic, Sarah, what's on Live With It this week?

43:19Sarah Lane: Well, if you want product reviews after that initial honeymoon period, putting gadgets and services and platforms to the long-term test is what we do on Live With It each week. We talk kitchen solutions, audio gear, smart TV upgrades. We run the gamut. In fact, speaking of audio, this week Jason Howell is reviewing his UAD Apollo Twin X. That's a studio solution for not just podcasters, but people who dabble in music or are full-fledged musicians like Jason is. and that might save you a lot of money based on the alternatives that you have. If you want to know more, subscribe at youtube.com slash at livewithitshow.

43:57Sarah Lane: And big thanks to all of our patrons who keep us trying out new things. Become a patron today. It's a lot of fun. Patreon.com slash livewithits.

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45:26Jenn Cutter: Next up, Apple's new watch will eventually get the ability to listen to a conversation and summarize it. This is the so-called Siri recap feature. It is not available on the watch at launch, but they do say it'll come soon. And it is described by Apple in the following way. Siri Recap does not create a recording. It does not produce a verbatim transcript and does not identify and attribute speakers. The output is a brief high-level summary comparable to notes a person might write after a conversation. There is no audible signal because no raw audio is retained and there is no way to reconstruct the original audio from a Siri recap or share raw audio with anyone.

46:14Jenn Cutter: Bloomberg has reported, however, that some states are looking into whether this qualifies as recording or interception of a conversation, which requires two-party consent in some areas. Now, whether it's legal or not is what Bloomberg is concerned with. Here, our question is the ethical one. Should you need permission for your AI to summarize your conversation? So I'm having a conversation with one or other people. I'm going to let Siri recap work. Should I tell them first? Should I ask them first? Taking the position of, yeah, you need to ask. You need permission. Is Roger Chang and Molly Wood on the side of like, nah, it's fine.

46:55Jenn Cutter: Is Amos. And back in the swing seats. Jen has just climbed back up onto the swing. Jen Cutter and Sarah Lane. I'm Tom Merritt, your referee. I flipped a coin in private and starting us off is yes, you should need permission. It's nice to see Roger and Molly teaming up. Exactly. It's a perfectly legitimate. We were cool the whole time. Yeah. Roger and Molly teaming up. And then Roger, you can start us off. You have two minutes? Ethically, yes, because a lot of people do feel uncomfortable around a lot of AI features, and it's less about what's getting recorded, what's getting processed, what's getting taken down.

47:39It's just letting that person know so they can make a value judgment about, like, they can feel some sort of agency, whether or not, like, hey, I would rather not just to make myself feel comfortable. I would totally be down for that. And I think just asking generally doesn't take too much effort. And I think it puts everyone at ease. And if it's a high stakes negotiation or conversation, like say it's a job interview or a pre-interview, or like, hey, you're trying to negotiate some sort of sale or something and you just want things to be between you two, I don't think it's an issue. I think ethically just having someone involved in it that doesn't have the device say like, oh, are you okay with me doing this?

48:24And they say that's okay. I mean, honestly, I used to – I took a class back in college and one of the students was deaf and she had a stenographer with her. And one of the things the stenographer asked was like, is everyone okay if I type up your questions or whatever in the class because I am noting down your question. I don't put your name, but I note that one of her classmates asked this particular question so she can have a transcript for her to read later after class.

48:54Sarah Lane: And I think I just honestly, I think I can't imagine anyone saying no, don't do that. Make it harder for our deaf class. I think asking is always the nice thing to do. Yeah. The light thing to do. Yeah.

49:09Jenn Cutter: All right. You still got some time. Molly, you want to jump in? No, I'll jump in. Are you good? Unless Roger has more. Nope. Yeah, I mean, part of this triggers my journalism brain on the one hand, right? Which is like you and also the legal brain. Like, I want to separate what Apple is saying about this feature specifically. And Apple has been very, very careful, like to an impressive degree, to make it clear that they are not doing the thing that like an AI note taker does, which is in fact record your conversation and then summarize it, even if it is discarded later. because that's where there is active conversation about consent.

49:51Like it's 12 states are two-party consent states where you are legally required to get the other person's consent before you record something. And Apple is pretty clearly saying that's not what we're doing. It's not a recording. But I would argue that still ethically and in terms of social norms, like just as we've gotten used to saying, do you mind if my otter or my notion note taker listens in on this conversation? we should do that in real life too. Like, don't be a creep.

50:18Jenn Cutter: All right. That is time. Uh, Amos, are you ready for your two minutes? I am. Carry on. I want to direct this conversation away from social norms and put it into the realm of social realities. There is no expectation of privacy. Anytime you're in public as a photographer, this is very important to me. Anytime you are in public, your expectation of privacy is zero. That's a legal basis. And that's really where you should be living. You should feel that anything that you're doing in public can be observed, can be recorded, and can be played back later if someone has recordings of it. There are cameras everywhere.

51:02I've got cameras all over my house, as we just discussed on Live With It. They record audio. Do I need to tell everyone that I'm recording if you're in my driveway? I don't think I do. And legally, I don't. I think the concept comes in that when you expect privacy, it should be incumbent on you to tell the other person or to tell the people involved, I expect privacy. I expect this to be between us. This is what happens in many situations in my friend groups and things like that where, hey, we're talking about a conversation, oh, I'm going to say something, but I need it to stay between us. That's exactly how it should be handled.

51:42You should assume at all times that anything that you're doing that's not in the privacy of your own home is being recorded by someone somewhere. And you should explicitly state when you want actual privacy, because that's just the reality of where we're living and how the world is going. And that's the end of the argument right there. Like, if you're going to be in public, if you're going to be in a non-private space, you should not have the expectation and should explicitly state that you want something, whatever you're saying, whatever you're doing to be private between you and the persons you're communicating with.

52:20Jenn Cutter: Oh, wow.

52:21Sarah Lane: If I understand.

52:23Jenn Cutter: Okay, let's go into open discussion. Yeah, go for it.

52:25Sarah Lane: Yeah. What you're saying, Amos, is you as a person who wants a conversation to remain private, you take the initiative to say this needs to happen and then you can decide if you trust the other person or parties to uh you know to to oblige right instead of me as me saying like hey amos uh is it cool if i record this conversation uh because uh you know that that's that's me maybe not taking that initiative and so later on it becomes let's say it's a legal debate between the two of us about, you know, why it was recorded and me saying, well, he didn't say anything, you know, that sort of thing. I, I, uh, I can save my swing seat argument for a little bit later if we want to have more of a conversation.

53:13Jenn Cutter: Do whatever you want. Yeah. Okay.

53:15Sarah Lane: So I, I really came into this as I think both things are, are, I don't, I'm not really in a swing seat. I think It's all about context. For example, Plod Note Pro reviewed it on a Live With It episode some episodes ago, Roger. I don't know how long ago, a couple months ago. And this is a physical device attaches to your iPhone. Well, attaches to my iPhone. My iPhone is not attached right now. But yeah, it's designed to record conversations. Plod itself will say to you, because they kind to legally have to. Remember, always ask permission. And it will do that within its software and the hardware itself to make sure that you're not being nefarious because it doesn't want to be liable for anything regarding that later on.

54:11Sarah Lane: Totally understand that. Don't know if that holds up in court for the company, depending on the instance. But I think that it all depends on who are you talking to? If you are, you know, being clandestine and like being a detective and recording somebody without their knowledge, that's why certain states say, no, you can't do that. You can't do it. If you are talking to a coworker and you have previously agreed that like, yeah, everything's on record and, you know, AI will just, you know, give us a good summary and I'll share it with you later. Then do you have to ask their permission every time?

54:50Sarah Lane: Not sure. Not sure you do because you've already established that it's okay.

54:56Jenn Cutter: Well, and I want to remind everybody, we're not talking about recording. And it's hard to wrap your head around that. But with the Siri recap, it is not recording. There is no audio file. It is not the same as what even what Plod does. That is the tricky part about, I mean, that's where I, you know, again, congratulations, Apple. They are attempting to skirt this quite cleverly by saying we're listening, but we're not recording. And then all we do is a summary that says Roger and Molly talked about football. And I will say that even, Amos, in your argument about expectation of privacy, even though I disagree with you on the amount of dystopian hellscape I want to live in.

55:37Oh, I'm not saying I want to live here. I'm saying we do live here. Right. But there are still differences legally around images versus audio. So actually you recording something from your driveway in a two party consent state would still be illegal. So we do treat. And that's where I think Apple is. That's why I think they're being so careful and like why Claude is so careful is because when it comes to recording conversations and Apple wouldn't be so careful. Right. If they didn't know that they were skirting. I think they're skirting the line and I think it'll be interesting to see what happens with this and how people receive it.

56:11Right. Because we do treat audio a lot more strictly in terms of an expectation of privacy. With this in particular, if you want to take this and just expand beyond just the watch, there are hearing aids out there that will take in all the sound and then computationally decide what it is that the person is actually trying to pay attention to and filter out those sounds. This is an assistive device that's taking all the sounds around me and tells me, hey, this is the relevant part of the last 15 seconds. It's doing it with text to me, as opposed to audio pumping straight into my brain, but it's still the same basic concept.

56:52So even on that front, I don't see this as being any different than other computationally accessibility devices. And my whole argument is even outside the whole legal framework. It's really just some people are very antsy around anything that smells or looks or acts remotely like a device that records. And to me, it's just a social grace, you know, a social etiquette thing where it's like, hey, I'm just letting you know because, you know, it does this. Is someone's phone ringing? No, that's the timer. I'm so stressed.

57:34Sarah Lane: I'm waiting for Roger to wrap up his statement. Like somebody answer it.

57:38Jenn Cutter: Yeah. Okay. So Jen, you're the only one who hasn't popped in on this. Do you have a question from the swing seat before we decide? I do. I'm glad Molly brought up journalism because when, you know, you're talking to a subject or in a conference or anything, anything that is off the record, you need to establish that first, not after. You're the journalist too. You don't wait for them to ask. Are we off the record? But I was carrying around a giant Canon XL2. you can't miss it you know when i'm recording uh watches are you know ubiquitous they're going to be everywhere and hidden so you would not necessarily know that this is going to be uh recorded now i know it's not recorded recorded like smart glasses are a much stronger thing like yeah we've decided with my hockey teams that no smart glasses in the room you can use it on the ice if you're crazy enough to put it under your helmet like if you're recording video and stuff but not in the room in the room it's uh it's a no-go and rinks have signs too saying like oh no phones and the oldest rink i play in has a sign saying no blackberries which i should take a photo of at some point uh but um but yeah because of the watches uh is the new reputation going to be along the lines of the way people call glasses pervert glasses well i don't think that's why i keep repeating that it's not recording an audio file maybe that won't make a difference to roger But socially, yeah.

59:03We know. Social makes no difference at all. To me, socially, it makes no difference at all. It's really – It still is surveillance. Yeah. Really, it's just ensuring the person that you're with is at ease and that they feel that you are being fully transparent, right? If I had one of those bow ties with the little cameras in it and I'm doing a dateline secret recording – But again, that's not a good analogy because all this is doing is saying – Here's a paragraph reminding you what you talked about though, to maybe illustrate how this would feel. So you meet someone for coffee. Maybe you're actually, you go to their house for coffee.

59:43Let's take the entire expectation of privacy out of it. You go to someone's house, you sit at their kitchen table, you chit chat for an hour and a half. Later on, you, you think like you get home and you're like, God, they said this thing. And I just, that didn't sit right with me. I just didn't. I don't I don't know how I feel about that comment in this friendship. And, you know, I'm just like evaluating this and whatever. And so you go back and you're just like, I didn't I didn't love how you talked about my brother. Right. I don't know. And they're just like, here are six things that you actually said during this conversation that were completely summarized by my watch.

1:00:18And you didn't know what's happening. And then you're basically your response to that as the friend on the other end is, oh, you're dead to me. I mean, like, which is why it's just a social.

1:00:27Jenn Cutter: known like why be we are gonna have to underline it right there uh sarah and jen do you do you like your swings or would you like to come down and join amos molly or roger i i like i said before

1:00:42Sarah Lane: i think i'm in both camps i think it's it's all contextual yeah very situational yeah very situational yeah and like for places where like i said where my friends have drawn the line i know that in advance so at least i can be respectful because i'm probably going to buy the new watch but I'm not likely to turn it on ever. So I might have to, when people look at my watch and side-eye me, I'm going to have to say, oh no, it's not on, don't worry.

1:01:05Jenn Cutter: Yeah, yeah. I think that kind of puts you in the lull. All right. Our third question, we're just going to do super lightning round. Everybody gets one sentence. Snap announced its spec glasses this week, which are self-contained AR glasses. Meanwhile, France opening a criminal investigation of the misuse of MetaSmart glasses in a sexual harassment case. And there's just that general backlash against smart glasses these days. We kind of touched on a lot of these issues in the last conversation. So we're going to go around the horn and answer this question in one sentence. Do you think there's any need for smart glasses, Molly Wood?

1:01:40No, these things would go to hell. I will fight the surveillance date until my last breath.

1:01:44Jenn Cutter: We'll call that a subjunctive clause. You fit the one sentence. Roger, do you think there's any need for smart glasses? Yes, in limited circumstances. All right. Sarah, do you think there's any need for smart glasses?

1:01:56Sarah Lane: I do. I do. Smart glasses don't freak me out as much as the next person because I also, I mean, how many times, maybe it's just me, do you pretend to take a selfie, but you're actually taking a photo of somebody across the room at the coffee shop? This is already possible. Smart glasses just make people more suspicious.

1:02:19Jenn Cutter: Jen Cutter, do you think there's any need for smart glasses? Yes, for accessibility. I think it's huge for elders. Good point. And finally, Amos, do you think there's any need for smart glasses? Need is carrying a lot of weight here. And I think the only place we need this is in accessibility. Everywhere else is a choice and it's something somebody wants to do, but the need would exist in accessibility. I can see that. All right. That is going to wrap up the show. Thank you, Sarah Lane. Thank you, Jen Cutter. Thank you, Roger Chang. Thank you, Molly Wood. Thank you, Anthony Lemos, for helping us explore planned obsolescence and kind of lean towards, you know, maybe it's probably just best to tell somebody if you're using that Siri recap.

1:03:05Jenn Cutter: And accessibility is the need for the smart glasses. Let's check in with Len Peralta, who has been illustrating today's show. Len, what have you drawn for us this week? So, you know, I've decided to do something a little bit different with this new format, which is the big questions. And so I tried to do all three questions into one drawing. So these are the big questions for 91826. Do we need smart glasses? Should we need permission for AI to summarize? And do companies intentionally plan their products to go obsolete? visually this is what that uh discussion looks like

1:03:44Sarah Lane: does not seem happy we tried so hard and yet we made this poor person gurgleser yeah and and look the phone is summarizing it you know so uh that conversation uh hey if you dig this new format and if you dig the big questions of the week you can go and back me at Patreon, patreon.com forward slash Len. Back me at the DTNS lover level. You'll get this image immediately or you can go the old fashioned way. Go to my store, lenperolstore.com. Go to the DTNS print store and you can buy it and support human art. Excellent. Molly Wood, thanks for coming back on the show. A great debater you are. Great to see you.

1:04:31Sarah Lane: Great to see you too. Let folks know where we can keep up with your latest. Everybodyinthepool.com, the podcast is back from summer vacation with new episodes. We're still just out here finding hope. I know it's tough with the El Nino brewing, but smart people still doing the work.

1:04:50Jenn Cutter: Thank you, Molly. Go check out her show. It is essential listening every time an episode comes out. Big thanks to everybody supporting us on Patreon, on Substack, using those hype points on YouTube. If you've been using those, thank you. if you haven't throw some hype points our way it helps other people discover the show and also thanks to Trisha Hershberger for the raid today it's good to see all the Trisha Hershberger folks show up thanks to Chris Beneteau for resubscribing at tier one for the 87th month it's great to see PacNW Fallstar and Theater Monkey and everybody in there as well thank you patrons for supporting the show and keeping us in business everybody can support us directly at patreon.com slash DTNS.

1:05:34Jenn Cutter: And patrons stick around for the post show exclusively on Patreon, where we're going to play a game with Roger. Tomorrow's Saturday special is Patrick Norton and Roger Tang talking about what you need to do with your old cables. Which ones should you keep? Which ones can you get rid of? Keep an eye out for that. And we will talk to you again on Monday. Have a great weekend, everybody.

1:06:02Jenn Cutter: This week's episodes of Daily Tech News Show were brought to you by the following people. Host Jen Cutter. Host Rob Dunwood. Host Jason Howell. Host Sarah Lane. Host Tom Merritt. Producer Roger Chang. Producer Anthony Linos. Video producer Joe Kuntz. Editor Hammond Chamberlain. Social media producer and moderator Zoe Detterding. Our mods. Beatmaster. W Scott S1. BioCow. Captain Kipper. Steve Gautorama. Paul Reese. Matthew J. Stevens. And J.D. Galloway. Mod and video hosting by Dan Christensen. Music provided by Martin Bell and Dan Luters. Art by Len Peralta. Acast ad support from Ali Gallo. Patreon support from Bobby Wagner.

1:06:38Jenn Cutter: Our guests this week were Molly Wood, Justin Robert Young, Nikamon for Terrence Gaines. And thanks to all our patrons who make this show possible.

1:06:48This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

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