Is Software Over? - DTNS 5371

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2:33Huyen Tue Dao: Welcome to the Daily Tech News Show, Big Tech Question, where every Friday we look at the tech news from the week and ask, what does that mean? What does that even mean? I'm Tom Merritt, and this week the big questions are, are we headed to a chatbot controlled world? Windows thinks so. Are you Team Smart Lock or Team Simple Lock? They're not dumb locks. They're just simple. And is software over? One developer says yes. The rest of us say probably not. Joining us here to draw the top tech news of the week, of course, is Len Peralta. Welcome, Len. We've set a challenge for you. Go Guardians. But first, today's tech news.

3:10Huyen Tue Dao: Here's Sarah Lane and Jason Howell.

3:15Sarah Lane: Bloomberg's Mark Gurman sources say Apple plans to unveil its first touchscreen MacBook Pro and a new iPad mini around October 27th. That is separate from the already announced October 13 smart home event, which we still really don't know if that's what it is, but probably. The redesigned MacBook Pros are rumored to be lighter with OLED touchscreens and the iPhone Dynamic Island interface. The iPad mini would also rumored to get an OLED screen, a front camera positioned for landscape phone calls, video calls, and redesigned speakers. Separate M6 updates to the 14-inch MacBook Pro and iMac are also expected at the same event.

3:57Over in Microsoft land, Microsoft 365 Family, Premium, and Pro Plans will switch from one terabyte of storage per person to a two terabyte pool that's shared by everyone on the account. This starts for new accounts after, well, it's already in effect as far as I can tell, and for renewals after May 2, 2027. That means any household with more than two people on the plan ends up with less total storage. A full six-person plan loses two-thirds of it. Prices aren't changing, though, and if you need more room, add-ons start at$2 a month for 200 gigabytes.

4:37Sarah Lane: Nikkei Asia's sources say Apple has cut October component orders for the iPhone 18 Pro and Pro Max by 15 % to 20 % amid softer demand. Suppliers point to the$100 price increases. Nobody likes those. And Apple's staggered rollout with the standard iPhone 18 coming next spring, or at least expected, and the iPhone Duo still unreleased. The cuts affect some suppliers more than others. Not clear whether Apple will make further reductions in November, but we will be watching. We will be. IDC says PC shipments fell 20.1 % year over year in the third quarter to 62.7 million units. All five of the biggest vendors shipped fewer machines with HP down nearly 31%.

5:25Vendors and retailers stocked up earlier in the year to get ahead of price hikes from, of course, the component crunch. Now they're sitting on inventory because those high prices are keeping buyers away. You may see some promotions this quarter, but IDC says prices will stay well above where they were a year ago.

5:44Sarah Lane: Meta has stopped accepting ads from TikTok parent ByteDance in the U.S., Canada, Egypt, Indonesia, Japan, Thailand, and Vietnam. The ban took effect immediately and also covers ads placed by third parties that link to TikTok or other ByteDance properties. Meta considers TikTok a competitor, obviously. and says the restriction follows its policy on competitors advertising on its platforms. Big thanks to R.W. Nash and the subreddit for this one. Anthropic launched OSS Scanner. It's a free opt-in service that runs periodic security scans on open source projects using its most capable models. That includes Cloud Mythos, of course.

6:28It's inspired by Google's OSS Fuzz, which has offered something similar since 2016. There is no human review, though, and Anthropic warns that some reports may be incorrect or invalid. So, you know, take it with a grain of salt.

6:43Sarah Lane: SpaceX has agreed to buy Grain Management's nationwide 800 MHz spectrum portfolio as it works to turn Starlink into a major U.S. mobile carrier. The deal covers up to 14 MHz of paired spectrum. Still needs FCC approval, so it's not a done deal just yet. But SpaceX says the lower frequency airwaves would help its service reach phones inside buildings. Currently a coverage gap alongside Starlink's existing spectrum. I really like this next one. UCLA researchers built PhoneBot. It's a two-legged robot about a foot and a half tall. It uses an old Android phone as its brain. The phone's camera tracks people.

7:27Its motion sensors report movement and orientation. It runs the control software, all for around$400 in parts, not counting the phone, by the way. That means that it can do things like walk. It can follow a person. It can get back up after falling on its face or its phone face. It has no arms. It has only been tested on flat ground. So there's serious limitations here, of course. But the team designed it as an open source platform for robotics education. Very cool.

7:56Sarah Lane: My Amazon Astro would love to know how to get up after falling on its face. Just going to say that. Samsung's rumored over-ear headphones may be called Galaxy Studio, according to developer and leaker EvoWiz, who previously correctly identified the Galaxy Buds On name. So, you know, grain of salt maybe, but maybe there's something to it. Earlier leaks suggested that Samsung was developing headphones to complement its Galaxy Buds lineup. But we don't have design, price, specifications, or launch date. Early days.

8:31Huyen Tue Dao: Indeed. Well, DTNest Live made possible by you. Thanks to all of you. We love your phone faces. Jeff Wilkes, Tim Deputy, Brandon Brooks, Frederick the Viking, and we got a new patron. Everybody welcome, Chris. Yay!

8:47Sarah Lane: Yeah, Chris. Go, Chris. Go, Chris. We love Chris. We love Chris.

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10:46And you get big purchasing power so your business can spend more and earn more. Steven, Brandon, and Bruno, the business owners of SandCloud, reinvested their 2 % cash back to help build the company's retail presence. Capital One, what's in your wallet? Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash SparkCash Plus. Terms apply. Meet Amazon Ads rising star Daryl Spencer, who set out to redefine men's self-care with his brand Crown Skin. Amazon Ads helped him grow.

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12:38Huyen Tue Dao: It is time for the Big Tech Question of the Week. you can vote on which side you would join in our poll. I did add two ways to vote no, because we think most people are going to vote no. You can check that poll out at patreon.com slash DTNS. This week, developer Brandon Thomas from Artcraft said he used Claude Opus 5.5 to create what he calls a clean room replacement for seven Adobe products. He's also working on versions of Word, Excel, and PowerPoint. Thomas declared that software is over. If he can vibe code and rust all of this stuff, by gosh, software companies are done for. Thomas has a lot of experience as a developer, though.

13:21Huyen Tue Dao: And even with his expertise and effort, the apps are not yet at 100 % replacement for their target Adobe products. So the question of the week is, is he right? Is software over? For this question, there are no teams because I don't think anyone agrees with them. But we all have different ways of interpreting this, and I think it's worth talking about. So we're just going to go around the table and get everybody's take and then have a discussion. Maybe we'll even come to a consensus. We'll see. Joining the discussion today, Jason Howell. Rob Dunwood. Yeah. Sarah Lane, of course. Wen Tui Dao. Roger Chang.

14:06And you.

14:07Sarah Lane: Hello.

14:11All right.

14:12Huyen Tue Dao: So, Jason, we'll start with you. Is software over? I mean, what does this claim actually mean? What do you mean is software over? He still had to create it. I don't think everyone is in a position where they feel comfortable or even have any sort of desire to put the effort in to even use a system like an LLM or whatever to vibe code, let's say software most people just kind of want a piece of software because they don't want to spend time with that they want to just get down to work or whatever i think the complexity of apps that these these mimic these copies are mimicking is a lot more nuanced than the models can ape right now um do i think it's possible to get there down the line i mean maybe eventually but there's a lot of other things to consider right like ongoing support is a real thing they software needs to be supported when an os updates you know having a company that's behind the software making sure that that's done in real time so i as a user don't have to i think that's a big uh you know that's that's a big requirement that's a necessity um but yeah so i don't think software is over i think it behooves this person to say that because he did something really interesting looking also mind you it's a demo it's not fully functional so there you go that's my take.

15:32Huyen Tue Dao: All right. Yeah. I think everybody understands that this is a way to get attention on art craft. There may be a side effect where you're like, oh, and he's got a good point or this or that. Rob Dunwood, take it next. What do you think?

15:45Robb Dunewood: Hex no. Software is going to be here for the foreseeable future. And I'm not talking about months or even years. I'm talking about decades. We are years and years and years into still needing software. The big thing here, If you think about what has happened, a developer used software, used an LLM to create something that looks like software from a piece of software. It's still software, still an application that you're doing things in. And people aren't going to trust that like they trust Word. People aren't going to trust just the folks who use Excel for their, you know, for their daily jobs.

16:24Robb Dunewood: They're not going to trust a replication of it because it doesn't have power pivot in it. So, no, I don't believe that software is going or that applications are going anywhere, anytime in the foreseeable future. We're talking about 10, 15 years still.

16:39Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah. I think we're all going to be circling around some of the same points here. But Sarah Lane, your next step, what do you think?

16:47Sarah Lane: I think the term software is a little subjective, right? It's like, is that something that you install locally on a machine? Is that something you use in the cloud? we have both I had a conversation with my mom recently where she mentioned something about Microsoft Excel and I'm like I don't use that and she's like you don't use Word or Excel and I'm like no I use Google Docs because it's free and she was like oh interesting now that is also software but it's something that is just part of my life that doesn't require me to go to a different app and use it specifically It's in my Google ecosystem.

17:29Sarah Lane: I think what Brandon Thomas has done is very interesting because he's not 100%, but pretty close, replicated something that Adobe does not want to be replicated. And so you're going to have Adobe people pretty miffed about this whole thing, and there's probably going to be some lawsuits. But I do think going forward, we're going to see a lot more of this. We're going to see a lot of people saying, hey, I vibe coded something that kind of works the same. And and and other people are going to get wind of that and it's going to get a little messy.

18:06Huyen Tue Dao: Indeed. All right. One person on our panel said fight me when I suggested that software was over. And on a totally separate unrelated note, when it's your turn. Yeah, I guess being a software engineer makes me a little biased. I honestly don't know what he meant by software is over. If you mean by the fact that he was able to, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he really very well recreated Photoshop and other things. I'd say that it's very impressive to recreate something, but something that LLMs are not good with is novelty. And we still need a lot of novelty in the world, I would argue, and thus in software.

18:47LLMs are really great at software right now because they're able to pick up patterns, which is basically what a lot of good software engineering is built off of, best practices, standards, and architectures. But we still need novelty to figure out new things, whether that's to face new challenges. I work as a platform engineer, which means I build infrastructure and tools for other developers and engineers. And we're always trying to figure out new ideas of how to make those better, how to make these systems better. And that requires novelty. I don't really see software being over by telling me that you more or less copied Adobe products.

19:16And I also say kind of tacking on to what other people said, there's still a human experience. There's still people are still using software. There's still this like tactile human experience that LLMs cannot replicate. Like I've seen designers like go over with me how tightly a spring animation is wound and unwound. There's like especially with things like Photoshop, there's like very specific interactions that humans need to be involved with. So I still need to be worked on. So I don't think software is over, but I'm biased.

19:42Huyen Tue Dao: All right. So far, it's unanimous. the answer may surprise us though when we hear from Roger Chang I mean really what I think he's getting at is and I'm giving him a very big dollop of benefit of the doubt is that he's suggesting that the kind of software industry that exists today is over because you can essentially build to order tools instead of having someone just create one that fits everyone's needs, right? Instead of just building a Swiss army knife of photo editing software that everyone then figures out, well, I'll use the wine opener portion or I'll use the part that lets me cut open the label or something.

20:25It's something that's very tailored to everyone's needs. I don't think it's there yet, honestly. I mean, yeah, you can replicate most of the functions that 80 % of people use Photoshop for, but the other 20 % is really what makes Photoshop sing for a lot of high-end users. because it is those things. Same thing with Premiere. I use Premiere every day. Most people use 40 % of what it does because that's what they need it for. It's the other 60 % that you use that really make it stand out over something a little less capable. All right.

21:02Huyen Tue Dao: I think what he's probably trying to say, in my opinion, is you will be able to make apps based on your needs. So in the future, the software industry is over, kind of the way Roger was saying. And I think one of the best arguments against even that, where it's like, well, you won't have to pay for software because you can just ask your agent to make the software you want to do, is what you were saying, Juan, the novelty of it. Can you expand on that a little more? And the idea of like, sure, he can replicate what Adobe is doing today, but can he actually continue to develop those apps to do the things that Adobe is going to add to those apps in the future?

21:44Yeah, and that's like a big problem that we're experiencing as software engineers now is that the reason that we're getting such nominally, there's nuance to that, nominally productivity gains in software engineering is, again, everything is based on patterns. Everything is based on prior work. And generally, that's good practice, right? You do the things that have worked up until now. But LLMs, because they're non-deterministic, stochastic machines, they just are able to understand patterns, replicate patterns, and see holes in patterns or see where patterns are broken down and help you with that.

22:14That is really valuable. But especially in my work and in a lot of things, it can't really think of a new way to do something. It sort of can, but it just is kind of like Frankensteining things together. If there's like a new human experience that we want to create, it's really hard for that. If something has no prior art, where is it coming from? How can the LLM generate it? Because that's literally what it is. It's all based on prior art and remixing and mashing. And I'll give it credit for a lot of good ways. But it's a problem that we're having now. And even, I'm going to try to keep it short, but even things like, say, even at Java, the programming language, Kotlin, the language I use, are all improving and developing and developing new features that are meant to make the language more secure, more stable, and more efficient.

22:58We have to make efforts to bring a lot of those new features from these basic tools that we use into the software patterns that LLMs can understand. So even from like a raw technical level of, okay, things are getting better, safer, and stable, but now we have to teach the LLMs to do that. And it's not an automatic process because, again, it's a non-deterministic learning model. It has to learn how to use these things. And we have to develop new practices. And then take that and extend it to even just like new ideas, new software, new experiences for people. It's a problem, actually. And I actually, as a platform engineer, as in contrast to someone who does, like, say, more feature, sorry, I'm using industry terms, but more like someone who does, like, just straight up apps and UIs.

23:36And I think that's actually the distinction. You're talking about an experience, a UI, the way that, a flow of interacting with an application that you can copy, you know. It's just, there's a lot of nuance to it. But, yeah, novelty is the big problem.

23:51Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah, Howard in the chat says, just because an LLM can think of something you might not have thought of doesn't mean someone else hadn't already thought of it. That's exactly right. As smart as one person may believe they are, they are just one perspective, right? And I think, yeah, I think that's an excellent point. I think another kind of point here as far as like the value of software that is created by someone or a team of someone's versus, you know, I have this need. I'm going to just spin up an agent and tell it to create the software that I think I need. Is that often the person that's in that seat of needing something doesn't entirely know what they need up front, right?

24:31And so like you take a look at like Premiere. Adobe Premiere didn't become Premiere in a day. or the premiere that it is today, that's been iterated over time. And sure, it's full of features that maybe a lot of people don't use and don't need, but they might not know that they need those features. And when they request an app that gets created suddenly, what is the big major thing that's actually missing from it? Because they didn't know to ask for it.

24:59Robb Dunewood: Yeah, Jason said something at the top in his first response. Where do you get support? because if we move out of the, this is cool for me to use, but is this cool for my organization of 27 ,000 people to use? That's a very, very different conversation you have to have because at some point, and this is how we think of things as administrators is, who can I sue if this thing that you told me works doesn't work? That is a big part of it. You might be surprised, but let's say, there's a new version of Word that comes out tomorrow For organizations, it may be a year or two or two and a half or three before they upgrade to it.

25:40Robb Dunewood: Now, the office products, they move to those fairly quickly. But other products, you literally will see you are a version or two or three behind simply because we know this version works. We know all the intricacies of it. And we're just not, you know, we don't need the new features at this point. We're just going to work on what we have right here. And a big part of that is because they went through enormous amounts of regression testing to make sure that it does the job that they have literally tens of thousands of people out there doing. So just because you can vote, you know, vibe, vibe code software, I look at it like this.

26:11Robb Dunewood: Somebody they didn't vibe code it, but somebody actually wrote GIMP years ago. It's like, you know, and code is let's see if we can go make Adobe Photoshop in something open source. I don't see this as being really any different than that other than the tools that you're using. Well, there were tools that when GIMP first came out that existed that don't exist today or did exist today that didn't exist then. You can do it in a different way, maybe in a more efficient way. But that doesn't replace Photoshop. It's just you created a really good replication of it in this other tool set. And that's what I'm looking at, Vibe Coding with an LLM here.

26:44Robb Dunewood: You still have to actually go in and create the piece of software. And the last thing I will say on this is that people don't necessarily know what they want. It's one thing when you're looking for an answer to a question that you could actually say, hey, LLM, this is the information I'm looking for, and you get that back. But when it comes to using something like Google Maps or some other mapping software, there are things developers put into that that you never would have thought of if it wasn't there. So you would have never thought to vibe code it. So you're just going around with half-baked software simply because you're not a coder.

27:18Robb Dunewood: You didn't have the imagination to come up with it other than saying, help me get from point A to point B. It didn't give you routes. It didn't give you the fastest way to go. It didn't tell you that there's an accident here. That's all stuff that developers had to think about over years of building these tools to say, you know, it'd be cool if we added this piece in here. It'd be cool if we added that piece in there. That goes away if every individual is just creating their own apps. They would be some very, very basic apps.

27:43Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah, I think the speed and efficiency is the big increase here, right? It took a lot longer to make GIMP than it took Brandon to make these. And yes, the level of expertise to make things has been lowered by these. There are people who can go in and make a capable app that probably couldn't have done it or wouldn't have done it, even if they could have. So that's all true. My perspective on this is it feels very similar. I wonder if it's going to be very similar to what happened to publishing, where we got rid of most of the disposable paperback market, you know, the like the self-help books and the cheap paperback fiction that you pick up at the airport because of e-books.

28:26Huyen Tue Dao: but we didn't get rid of hardbacks. We didn't get rid of all print copy books because people still like the feel or whatever. Now it's a different situation, but I think I hear some of what you guys are saying and I'm like, it kind of feels like, yeah, if you want really quality software, you're not going to just vibe code it all the time. You want people who think about this and design it well and come up with things you didn't know you want. But yeah, maybe some of that bottom 50 % of the app stores where it's like just kind of one-off really you know small specialty maybe not even that good apps you know yeah maybe that market goes away because you can just have your agent do it instead it's i mean it underscores the fact that coding isn't i mean win would would totally i back me up on this that the being a software engineer is more than just being able the code in C or Perl.

29:22It's understanding, you know, how your workflow. I mean, one of the things I learned and really hated when I took C in college was that we had to basically do an entire workflow of your input data, what you wanted to happen to that data, and then all the points in between. And that is a process of thinking. That isn't a process of, like, taking a keyboard and start, you know, pressing keys and having magic happen. And, like, you know, one of the things my instructor told us, like, you're not going to be touching your keyboard for the first two weeks. You're going to have a notebook, and you're going to be writing out all the things that you need to understand about basic coding.

30:03And, you know, you can apply this to anything. So, yeah, I think this is great to help speed up the process, like, to iterate, like, hey, it would be great if we tried it this way. Let's try it that way. And then, like, hey, you know what? We got something. then let's just roll up our sleeves and now we know where to go. I mean, it's the same thing with WYSIWYG HTML sites. For the longest time, it's like, oh, you don't need to know HTML. You don't need to know CSS. You don't need to know any of it, right? You just kind of drag boxes where you want it, and there's your website.

30:34Sarah Lane: But somebody behind the scenes made it possible for you to do that. Well, it made it possible, but you also want to understand why everything works the way it does so if something's broken, you know where to look.

30:44Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah, you know how to fix it. I think we get rid of software that we don't really need. Like a lot of software became apps when it's like, it could have been a website. Or currently with agents, there are certain things you can just say, I need agent, I need you to do this. And it can just do it. Volk renaming. Yeah, you don't need an app for that. There are tons of apps for Volk renaming. That's a great example. That's a great example. So that bottom end of the market of apps, maybe. Maybe Brandon's right about that. I don't know that that's what he meant. So actually what he meant was please buy Artcraft.

31:18Huyen Tue Dao: Please pay for Artcraft is honestly what he really meant. He just wanted it. Listen, I said something and I got publicity. Now make sure it turns over into sales. Yeah. It's a compelling argument when it's coupled with what you see in the screenshots that are shared. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. But it's not entirely truth. Yeah. And I think it is probably lighting a fire under some of these software companies to realize like, oh, we really have to. be the best version of ourselves right now so that people understand the value that we're bringing. I mean, there is a lot of industry dislike of Adobe products because of their pricing model and that sort of stuff.

31:57So if anything, this is another opportunity for Adobe to look and be like, okay, and now we got that to contend with because of the choices we've made. Maybe they're okay with those choices, but there's a lot of people out there that don't like those choices. And so they look at that and they're like, see Adobe, you need to do better.

32:13Robb Dunewood: And to be clear, Brandon is a software engineer, correct? Yeah.

32:17Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah. He's got more than a decade of experience with Rust.

32:20Robb Dunewood: I was going to say, you cannot, you cannot diminish the amount of experience that person who actually did this has with creation of software. My gut tells me that I could go use an LLM to come up with Hangman. My gut also tells me that if, you know, if a developer were to do it, They could make a version of Hangman so much more incredibly complex than what I can because they just know what to do. It's something that they have experience in. So I think that, you know, when I hear people saying things like software is coming to an end, you won't need applications anymore. They're thinking about the basic things.

32:57Robb Dunewood: It's like you ask the question and you got an answer to the question. That maybe, but actual software, things like Premiere, things like Photoshop, things like Word, things like Excel, I don't think we're going to see those things go anywhere anytime in the foreseeable future. I mean, maybe he was doing a blue sky kind of thing where it's just like, you know, let's just totally imagine. Trying to drive engagement on blue sky? Yeah, or just where you basically think about like, hey, you know what, why don't I just tell, like, can you turn in all these pictures so they look good? in like some weird photo collage.

33:32So it looks like it did it and you don't do anything and it does it for you in the background. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure, maybe. But I don't know.

33:38Huyen Tue Dao: It's a little Star Trek-y. I think most software is not over. Especially because Claude is software. So, you know, I mean, and I know that's not necessarily what he's talking about. But yeah, software, to wrap this up, tell me if you agree with this. Software is about to change dramatically because of this. Sure. I think it already.

34:02Robb Dunewood: I think it already has. It's every year what you could do more in software development was always. Yeah, it's I don't see that as any different than any other developments that we've had over time.

34:13Huyen Tue Dao: All right. Well, we'll leave that one there for now. But again, you can vote in the poll at patreon.com slash DTNS. Sarah Lane, what have you been living with this week?

34:23Sarah Lane: Oh, Tom, glad you asked. For anybody who's not familiar with our show, if you want tech product reviews after that initial honeymoon period, join us on Live With It. Each week, we're talking about all the tech in our lives that we actually live with. We're not just reviewing it and sending it back. This is something that's happening in our house, in our garage, in our yard, with our pets. Home improvement, car tricks, all the solutions. This week, Roger and I are covering robots and dog poop. yep you heard that correctly it happened and I live to tell the tale live with it is on youtube at youtube.com slash at live with it show you're laughing but it's true it really happened big big thanks to everybody who supports us you keep us reviewing new stuff that you might want to buy and have as part of your household as well patreon.com slash live with it

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37:17Huyen Tue Dao: This week, we got the news that Apple is likely to announce a smart home hub at its October 13th event, maybe even partner with LG on a line of smart home products. Apple, in their invite, had people embroidering Welcome Home with the old Apple logo. So it's going to be something about home. Amazon's Ring also announced a new door lock that comes with a hand crank so that you can charge it up real fast and unlock it if the battery were to ever die. So I thought, let's talk about smart locks, whether it's from LG, Apple's partnership or Amazon or somebody else. Are you team smart lock or team simple lock?

37:54Huyen Tue Dao: On team smart lock is Rob and Jason. On the side of team simple lock is Roger and Sarah. And waiting for you to persuade is Huan Tui Dao in the swing seat. We shall start off with team smart lock. Jason is going to take the lead for the Smart Lock team. You have two minutes, Jason. Go for it. I do practice what I preach. I do have a Smart Lock at the front door, and I love it. It's convenient. Keys are fiddly. You can lose them really easily. Keys is like cash for me at this point. I don't want to carry either of them, but sometimes I have to. So anyways, it's convenient. I don't have to worry about that.

38:40I get visibility into what's happening at my front door. Whether that's useful or not is a different story. But with apps, like smart home apps and stuff like that, I like that ability. When I have a dog sitter or a house sitter, I can just program them their own time-limited code. So I don't have to worry about literally giving them the keys to the house forever and ever and wondering, did they make a copy of it or give them my main pin or whatever? It's super easy to do that. Oh, I love that my door lock locks after 90 seconds after the door is shut. I love that because I'm a forgetful person.

39:14So it's nice to know that no matter what, it's going to always be locked behind me. I know there are downsides, but I love all the upsides. I am team smart lock.

39:22Huyen Tue Dao: All right. Fantastic. Any anything to jump in on in there, Rob? You've got a minute left.

39:29Robb Dunewood: Yes. So here's what I would say about smart locks. They're new technology, but they're still locks. I think about this. I am old enough to remember a day when we didn't have a garage door opener. We had a child named Robbie go open the garage for your mom. Go shut it. Go open the door for your mom. Go shut it. That's what we did. And now it's hard to imagine a garage door without a garage door opener. It's just kind of they just kind of come together. I'm getting to the point to where it's becoming for me kind of hard to imagine a lock that I just can't use my phone to open it up or put a code in or put my thumb on.

40:05Robb Dunewood: it and it just opens up or even send a neighbor across the street to your house to go get your passport that you forgot on your way out of the country so they can bring it to the airport for you so you can still make your flight. Being able to just unlock the door for them is a very impressive thing. So these are things that you simply cannot do without a lock that is not smart.

40:28Huyen Tue Dao: All right. Well done. And within the time limit, Team Simple Lock, you have two minutes. And Roger, you can start us off. I always look at things that affect my security on the very simple premise. What happens when it stops working? So if my garage door opener stops working, how do I get into the garage door? Because it's happened before. Because of a power outage and I didn't have one of the more modern garage door openers with built-in batteries that still power the garage door opener. the only way to access it is to basically dig out a key and pop the lock that pulls the pin off the garage door opener you can open it with uh with a door lock i don't know it seems a little complicated at this point uh for something that i can use a key and then select a lock that i prefer like a schlag or or something or um that i feel more secure using as as as to people who i let in you know i give you know i mean tom has a key key to my place i have a key to roger's roger

41:36Sarah Lane: has a key to mine but but how many times have you replicated that and sent it to everyone you know can't say well you know i still have 2 ,987 people to give christmas keys to um but but this is the thing we're a safe scenario it's very simple for me to pop out the the lock barrel on my front door and replace it. It takes all of five, seven minutes for me to do. I prefer to have something that is durable, reliable, and then unaffected by power outages. If I need to see someone at my door, I have security cameras at my front that do that, so I don't need a secure lock to do it. I've been the victim of Porsche pirates, but at the same time, I don't think it's worth using.

42:22I mean, I've not heard anything other than I'm forgetful and I need a backup plan when I'm forgetful for a smart lock. All right. I mean, I'm thinking secure. So, Sarah.

42:35Huyen Tue Dao: You got 10 seconds if you want to add anything, Sarah.

42:38Sarah Lane: 10 seconds, huh? Oh, wow. Thanks. No, I actually live in an old building. That would require quite a bit of construction, you know, and also my landlord would have to sign off on it. So I think for some people, it just isn't something you can do. And I'm in that camp. I also think, like Roger said, at the very end of the day, if you don't have a physical key and you're locked out of your house, not fun. Not a fun situation. So even though I'm very smart home, I'm very smart home. everything in my house is pretty much a smart home solution but i'm like still rocking the physical keyness all right when you're in the swing seat do

43:27Huyen Tue Dao: you have anything you want to throw towards either side uh now that we're we're at the end of the opening oh wow that actually sarah's last argument kind of sold me back a little bit um we'll see i'm still i'm still pendulum ming um so for the smart that's what the seat is for it's called a swing seat um i guess even under after the power concerns i know this is kind of hard to imagine given like the scale of the companies that put out smart locks but isn't there any fear that at some point you know these companies might either discontinue something or you know like um like discontinue something or just something stops working you know or a service goes down or i i don't know or just they make something irrelevant and then it's not like you know like a smart home hub where okay if they decide to stop supporting my poor desktop max i just unfortunately put it to the side thank you for its service and buy you know whatever apple or amazon is putting out it's like the lock on your door isn't there any concern about trusting the security of your house to like one company so can i can i answer this uh there is

44:27Robb Dunewood: there's this concern even if my smart lock company which i can't even think the name of it it's just whatever's on the door if they were to go google route and go google nest route and say not only are we going to stop supporting this version of the nest we're going to break it you can no longer do with it what you used to be able to do, that would be a problem. If the power goes out or if the company who actually makes my smart lock goes out of business tomorrow, I can still put the key in the door, turn it and open my door, just like Roger can, just like Sarah can. That functionality does not go away.

45:02Robb Dunewood: You still are able to use a smart lock. If there's no power, you're still able to use a smart lock. If the software is out of date, you just have to put the key in just like you would in an old lock. So to go back to my garage door opener example, back in the day when you got a garage door opener, if the power went out, you could. You could put your key in your garage door, turn something that would disengage the door and actually allow you to still lift it. Try that today. It is very rare to go to a garage door today in 2026 that if the power is out and you're on the outside of the door that you can get in.

45:35Robb Dunewood: You simply have to go through the house and go in and get it. I'm not saying that that's not always the case, but usually the case is those garage doors don't even have handles on them on the outside any longer because so many people now use garage doors. So the point that I'm making here is that the old technology doesn't go away. It's just being enhanced by the new technology that gives you all the additional features. The lock still works like it always did if I put my key in it and turn it. No power required. Yeah.

46:00Huyen Tue Dao: And I'll add on that with Matter, most of the door locks can run locally, even if the cloud service goes away. That's one of the benefits of the standard. And a lot of times they run off NFC, which doesn't require power either. So even if they didn't have the key backup, most of these are still going to continue to work. Even if the cloud part of the service went away, you just have fewer features. Like I can't think of a single time that I've been locked out of my house with the smart lock on the front. The whole power going away or whatever, it's not hooked up to the grid. It's actually battery powered and we're sufficiently notified well in advance when it's low on battery.

46:42And so we replace it. And so like I'm actually thinking, you know, we probably had a smart lock for the last five years and I don't know that I've ever been locked out. Yeah. So there's that. But have you been locked out of your house before you had a smart lock? Well, that's a good question. Nothing comes to mind. I'm sure it's happened at some point.

47:00Huyen Tue Dao: Oh, I was just wondering if the smart lock made it so you were less frequently locked out of your house anyway because you didn't need to forget a key or remember a key. Yeah.

47:08Robb Dunewood: Yeah. Not so much me because I just am a creature of habit and I carry my keys, but my children have locked themselves out of the house. Oh, crap. What do I do? Just put the code in. You know, put the code in, come in through the garage or put the code into the lock. You don't have to just use your phone. You can actually put a code into the lock and it'll open as well. The thing about power, mine actually is powered by the grid, but it has a battery backup. So you'd have to have the power go down for probably months and months and months for that lock not to work from an electric standpoint, just because the battery probably lasts for months on, even though it is backed up by power from the grid.

47:50Huyen Tue Dao: Roger, has the power on your lock ever been a concern? My lock has no power. Yeah, exactly. And I haven't been locked out of my house. I haven't been locked out of my house since high school. And the one time I was, I figured out how to get in. Everyone in the audience who's been locked out of their house is like, that's great for all you responsible people on this panel. Listen, when the keys are on the shoestring around your neck, it's really hard to lose.

48:18Sarah Lane: I mean, I've been locked out of my car because I have a fob. And so I use my thumbprint to unlock and lock my car. um but you know if that battery dies which it has yeah um yeah i i was i was at a beach that was like a very remote beach like it would be i mean at least seven miles for me to like walk somewhere to even get help now there is a physical key inside the fob which i never used until that day um but that was the day where i was like yeah okay we need physical things physical backups at

48:59Robb Dunewood: least backups but you had one though right yes i did i did so you had one so yeah that's so so i

49:05Sarah Lane: what i'm saying is like the physical backup sometimes comes in real handy well i mean i understand what you're saying rob i don't know for me it's just that the extra complication doesn't seem an added value for me like it would not it would not either it would not simplify my life

49:22Robb Dunewood: yeah this is a real thing i had to let my neighbor in to get my passport to bring it to the airport because i couldn't get back home and back to the airport in time to get the flight she was able to get the passport bring it to me at the airport for me to be able to make my flight it was worth it just for that if if no other benefit just for that i did not have to miss a flight or have to jump through a ton of hoops to try to get through security to do an international flight without a passport. I mean, I totally see that as a benefit. I mean, I remember one time I could see on my camera, my window was flapping open in the house because we had a huge winter storm in LA and it blew open on my windows.

50:01I called my friend because I left her a key to my house and she came over and she like secured all of them. I mean, to me, it's just like, well, if I trust this person in my house, I might as well just give them a key. It is a trust thing.

50:14Sarah Lane: It's like, do you get a code? Do you get a key? What are you getting?

50:17Huyen Tue Dao: It's easier to revoke trust with an app than it is to go ask for the key. That's on me for picking the wrong phrase.

50:25Sarah Lane: And by then, they've made 700 of them. For everybody.

50:29Robb Dunewood: In my case, it wasn't the first neighbor that I called that answered. It was the second one. So how many of my neighbors do I give keys to?

50:40Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah, so... Well, it's weird because Tom's not even a neighbor. He lives very far away. It's not very far. By LA standards, it's practically next door. Also, why don't I have a key to either of your houses?

50:55Sarah Lane: I'm moving on to the next topic.

50:57Huyen Tue Dao: You lived up in the Bay Area when the great key exchange of 2018 happened. Hmm, hmm, hmm. You were about to ask another swing question, I think. Just to kind of maybe – because I feel like maybe a lot of non-check people ask this. Do you think that smart locks pose any risk of nefarious shenanigans? Like could someone ransom your smart lock and keep you out of your house? Or do we – I guess it's back to that. Do we trust the company, the service behind us? And does it provide a vector for ransoming your house basically? I see it being more convenient. And this is the thing that was drilled into me by Patrick Norton.

51:36is like just securing the house, like making it secure. To me, it doesn't add any security. It adds a lot of convenience factor to your life, but as security, as opposed to putting a metal frame in my door frame instead of replacing the wood one and then putting a two-inch, two-to-four-inch deadbolt that goes straight through it, that's like security or then putting bars on the window.

52:02Huyen Tue Dao: But I don't think it reduces security as much as people think. Oh, no, that's my point. If I'm looking at replacing my lock, I'm looking like, well, is it a convenience thing or is it a security thing? If it's added security, I'll look at it. But if it's a convenience thing, personally for my life, I don't think it adds that much. Rob, do you feel like your door lock is less secure because it's a smart lock?

52:25Robb Dunewood: Absolutely not. And it couldn't be ransomed because as long as I can physically get to my house, I can just put the key in and open the door. There's also I don't have smart locks on every single door on the house. So there's there's still a dumb door in the back that needs, you know, needs two two separate keys to get into because it's got a lock and a deadbolt lock on it that are that are different keys. So no matter what happens, if I can physically get to my house, the state of the smart lock is inconsequential to me getting in. If I can physically get to the house, it does not bar me in any way or any way or fashion.

53:05And I would say in my case, especially because I can be a forgetful person at times, it actually does elevate the security of how my house is accessed because it does that auto lock thing for me. Like I love that feature because there are times where I'm in a rush and I don't think about it and I go and I feel confident that 90 seconds later it's going to be back locked and I didn't need to worry about. I will say to Rob and Jason, on their side, because I have kids, I could totally see this as being beneficial to letting them in the house. And so don't have to give them a key.

53:39Huyen Tue Dao: And make sure that it's locked after they leave and they don't forget to lock it.

53:43Robb Dunewood: And one of the things that I can't stand is when my wife or my daughters will come home, the lights aren't on. Because we don't have our lights to where they just automatically come on. But they come home, the lights are off. And they're just standing there at the door rattling through bags trying to find the key to get in as compared to just walking to the door and opening it and walking in. It's just a level of security for me that just makes me feel more secure that they're not standing, you know, in the middle of the night at the door rummaging through trying to find the key to get in.

54:15Huyen Tue Dao: And I imagine it's still easier to pick a lock, even if it's a smart lock, to get in than it is to try to hack your way into it. Because, again, most of these work locally. they don't it's not like you can hack into the cloud server and change the lock I mean if you're determined all you need is a hammer and a good sized screwdriver to break through the because the weakest point you just need to gouge out the part on the door frame where the deadlock goes through what do you think have you been swayed to lock in your opinion one way or the other? I see what you did there. I actually literally just missed my husband.

55:01So what do you think about putting smart locks on the doors? I mean, honestly, it feels like all the problems that were with simple locks exist with smart locks. And especially if we could get one of the cool ones with a little hand crank so you can charge it up. Honestly, as someone who forgets their keys and doesn't want one of those fake rock things two feet from my door, I'm kind of into the smart lock.

55:22Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah. if you don't have roger to be your fake rock or or i am his what basically oh okay instead of hiding a key under the fake rock we we store each other's no i would get you a real rock when like a big heavy rock and then it's a feet of strength kind of like a caliber or like no that's totally what superman does superman has a key that only he can lift to unlock the doors of this fortress all right so if you can't if you're not superman maybe a smart lock is for you Our final question today comes alongside the news that Surface Laptop Ultra is out running an NVIDIA Blackwell chip. And Microsoft also announced it's going to integrate its chatbot into the taskbar search field in Windows.

56:06Huyen Tue Dao: The idea is that you can just ask Windows to do something and it'll do it. So, you know, turn on dark mode or something like that. Rob and I were chatting about this on Wednesday. uh this may be the way forward but how long will it take uh are we headed to a chatbot controlled world in the sense of we'll control our software by chatting with it and and less of like finding settings and going through menus and things like that uh rob since you and i were chatting about this uh have you thought about it more since then i have actually thought about it more and even the

56:41Robb Dunewood: conversation about the smart locks has made me think about this so the initial reaction was that the talking to the chat bot changes the experience. It really doesn't. It's like you can still go to control panel and get to the thing and do it the old fashioned way. Being able to just talk to the chat bot and just having it do it is just a quicker way to get around it. So because of that, I'm not anti this. In fact, I think it's actually kind of cool to where I can just say, hey, make, you know, put me in dark mode or do this thing or take a screenshot here. Those kind of things are really, really cool to be able to say, and it would speed up my process as far as me just working day to day.

57:18Robb Dunewood: So I'm not mad at that. And I even think going back to the very first story that this is where apps, you know, maybe begin to disappear to where there is not an app that you need to use to do a screen grab. You don't have to use Clipper any longer. You can just say, hey, keywords, grab my screen. and it just happens for you. So I think that those kind of actions can actually be replaced by a chatbot as compared to the application. But I think at least right now, you'll still have the app. You'll still be able to never have to say anything to your chatbot or never have to type anything in and still be able to get in a dark mode just by doing it the way you've always done it.

57:55Huyen Tue Dao: Roger, do you think you're going to be chatting more with your software? You know what? I very rarely chat with people around me, so I don't know. It's kind of weird to say, but I honestly think things like this are very personality-based. I've known people who are just like, I don't want to talk to anyone. Give me the instructions. Give me the book. I'll figure it out. Leave me alone. And as I get older, actually, I'm exactly the same way. So it depends. If I'm going to chit-chat with someone, it's going to be like, oh, what did you do over the weekend? Did you watch this movie or whatever? I don't know if I just want to ask like, oh, how do I connect or can you pull up something for me?

58:39It's like, no, just tell me what to It's kind of like mouse versus keyboard

58:43Huyen Tue Dao: shortcuts when you think about it that way Yeah, exactly. No, it is. It's just like no, I don't need it. Just give me the key combo and I'll work it out. It's fine Sarah Lane, it's a personality thing Do you want to chat more? I already am

58:57Sarah Lane: So I'm not using a Microsoft product, but Google Gemini is like my best friend. And I also, I pay for Codex. So that's kind of a separate thing. But just yesterday, I had a bunch of dry black beans. And I'm like, do I put them in the rice cooker? Like, I could like look that up. Or I could just be like, hey, Gemini, best friend, what do I do here? And then I got, you know, a bunch of instructions and, and, you know, I, I kind of said like, cool, but I also have sour cream, you know, that, that sort of thing, very collaborative. And if, if you're, if you get the ick from doing something like that, then, then these won't help you.

59:42Sarah Lane: You know, it's, it's the idea of a chat bot being, you know, your little helper. You're just not going to like that. I think it's great. I don't think it's great for every single thing in my life. And like Roger said, it's like there are certain times where you're like, I need to just absorb the information and figure out how to fix this thing or build this thing or do this thing. But I think chatbots are here to stay.

1:00:08Huyen Tue Dao: Jason, what about you, AI inside? Are you controlling your windows with a chatbot? I am doing so much with chatbots right now. And using my voice. I use Whisper Flow as the app that I use for voice entry. Absolutely love it. that's kind of like a side tangent. There are things that I enjoy doing myself. And then there are things that I do not enjoy doing myself. For example, one of my websites for the podcast consulting, I designed that with a service called Framer, however many months ago, like 10 months ago, did it mostly myself based on a template, took me days to get it to a point that I liked.

1:00:50Just the last couple of days, I've been updating it. And I've been using ChatGPT, talking with ChatGPT to tie into my Framer account and do these changes in real time. And I was able to get in a couple of hours so much done that I didn't have to scratch my head and think, where do I go? I know you're telling me where I need to go, but I can't find the thing. So much of the confusion was removed. And it was magical. I think the more that people have those kinds of experiences, those successful experiences with chatbots, the more into it they will become. Yeah, I don't think they're going anywhere.

1:01:24I think we're at the beginning of something really interesting.

1:01:27Huyen Tue Dao: Wen Tui Dao, you've got the final word on whether we should be chatting with our OS or not. I think it really depends. I think actually for a lot of things I am really relying on chat a lot more because when I don't have a precise idea or, yeah, when I'm trying to figure out how to do something that I don't know how to do, then yeah i would love to chat about it especially with conversational things with contextual chats i can just chat like a real person and not have to like do a specific rigorous like route like series of instructions that being said i'm like roger i like keyboard shortcuts sometimes if i know what i'm doing i just want to do the thing i don't want to talk to anyone about it so i think it really depends on what you're doing i think a lot of everyday tasks chat bots are great if it's something you don't know but if it's like something like again back going back to photoshop i'm not i'm not gonna or premiere i'm not gonna sit there and chat with a with premiere about where to put this clip on the line and then go to this front you know i mean like there are certain things that is not it is ill it is ill-equipped for but man do i do i actually really really rely on chat now more than i want to admit so and uh bonus question did you decide on your new title i saw you in the chat room uh trying to decide on your new artisan software engineer title have you have you settled on anything artisan bite crafter bite crafter i like that yeah i i thought i was going to get maybe woodcut business cards.

1:02:42So it actually looks like a Warcraft or something. So there you go.

1:02:45Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah. Well, thank you, everybody. That's going to wrap up the show now. We decided that software is probably not dead. There are plenty of good reasons to get a smart lock or a not smart lock. And yeah, we all like we all pretty much like to chat sometimes, but maybe not all the time. So there you go. That's where we're going to leave it. Big thanks to Len Peralta for illustrating today's show. Let's bring him back onto the screen. Len, what have you been drawing for us this week? Yeah, I don't know if you guys are big Portlandia fans or not.

1:03:17Sarah Lane: Oh, I am. So when I got the email from Tom asking about some of the questions and one was, is software over? The very first person I thought of was Spike from Portlandia. And that's what this is. He's asking, is software over? He's saying, software's over. Smart homes are over. So anyway, it's over. love that character and I really enjoyed drawing this I love drawing Fred Armisen when I get a chance if you're a Fred Armisen fan or a Portlandia fan you can get this image at my Patreon patreon.com forward slash Len where you can back me at the DTS lover level or you can buy it at my store the old fashioned way at LenBeraldStore.com and you can get it today so

1:04:07Huyen Tue Dao: it's not over that's one thing that's not over that's not over uh well thank you len peralta thank you everybody watching us on twitch uh and youtube and patreon we got people in all those chat rooms zoe brings bacon and pc miles he giving us some bits uh g james b reached a 190 stream streak uh getting so close to 200 uh thank you everybody and we are developing a dtns calendar For 2027, Theater Monkey, our video producer, has been working with Len and Scott Johnson and you. Your art could be in it. Check out the specs and the details. We pinned it to the top at patreon.com slash DTNS. Don't have to be a patron to read it.

1:04:51Huyen Tue Dao: Don't have to be a patron to enter. Email your art feedback at dailytechnewsshow.com. Cutoff date for the submissions is October 30th. If your art is selected, you'll get a free copy of the calendar. Once again, patreon.com slash DTNS. Thank you, patrons, for keeping us in business. Support us like Chris did directly at patreon.com slash DTNS. Patrons, stick around for the post show. We'll be back on the air momentarily. a U.S. holiday on Monday. So no show then. But look in the feed this weekend as we kick off our Cybersecurity Awareness Month with the first of a three-part special with Brian Brushwood explaining social engineering and how all of us can fall for it as well as how not to fall for it.

1:05:39Huyen Tue Dao: That's in the feed on Sunday. Don't miss it. Thanks, everybody. Have a good weekend.

1:05:48Huyen Tue Dao: This week's episodes of Daily Tech News Show were brought to you by the following people.

1:06:12Huyen Tue Dao: and J.D. Galloway. Modern video hosting by Dan Christensen. Music provided by Martin Bell and Dan Luters. Art by Len Peralta. Acast ad support from Todd Tuchek. Patreon support from Bobby Wagner. Our guests this week were Steve Persky and Robert Herron. Thanks to all the patrons who make the show possible.

1:06:33This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at frogpants.com.

1:06:41Huyen Tue Dao: Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

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