Is The Touchscreen A Big Deal? - DTNS 5385

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2:02welcome to the daily tech news show big tech question we look at the tech news this week and ask what does that mean i'm tom errett this week the big questions are would steve jobs have approved the macbook with a touch screen or would he have continued to talk about gorilla arm uh did rob keep his google book uh there's a lot of google book reviews coming out and rob dunwood had two of them. What did he think? Plus, we're going to finish up with a little Halloween flavor. What tech scares us? First, though, let's get to today's tech news. Here's Sarah Lane and Jason Howell.

2:38Sarah Lane: Blockchain investigators say North Korea's Trader Trader hacking group likely stole about $6.3 billion from Binance, making it the largest crypto theft on record. Binance says roughly$3 billion has been frozen and it will cover all the losses. Withdrawals are paused with service expected to resume within 48 hours here or there. Binance initially suspected a compromised laptop and says its investigation has uncovered additional breach points. Amazon had its earnings report showing net sales growth of 12 % last quarter, but that still fell short of what analysts expected and so did its earnings per share.

3:21So Amazon Web Services here was actually the bright spot, growing 39 % year over year. All that growth is expensive. As we know, Amazon's investments in AI infrastructure meant that it spent$42.4 billion more cash than it brought in over the past 12 months. A year ago, it had nearly$15 billion left over.

3:45Sarah Lane: Reddit is moving towards requiring users to log in for most browsing, starting with tests outside the U.S. this quarter. CEO Steve Huffman says the change is meant to improve personalization and ads while limiting AI scraping as search referrals are in some sort of a decline. Real names won't be required for anybody who's like, I don't like that. And the homepage and posts open through shared or search links will still be accessible without you having to sign in. There's no worldwide rollout date just yet. I'd be curious to see how that works. I use Reddit a good amount when I just want to turn my brain off.

4:26Motorola says the flagship Signature 27 will launch on November 5th. I actually got to use it a little bit in Maui last month. It's a pretty cool phone. It runs on or got to see it. Sorry, I didn't get to use it, but I got to see it. It runs on Qualcomm's latest Snapdragon 8 Elite Extreme Gen 6. It has a 50-megapixel main camera plus a 200-megapixel periscope telephoto. features audio tuned by bang and olofsson it ships with android 17 has a promise of seven years of os updates which is pretty good for motorola there's no and for all of them actually there's no official price yet but i would expect it to be priced pretty competitively on the premium

5:04Sarah Lane: end it's a premium device after all sandus beat quarterly expectations as ai demand drove sales of its flash storage. Yes, another company that has a windfall from people loving AI. Revenue was up 23 % from the previous quarter. Data center revenue jumped 61%. Consumer revenue, though, fell 29%. So a lot of data center revenue, not so much on the consumer side. The company expects revenue of up to$12.6 billion next quarter and announced an eight-for-one stock split taking effect after the market closes on November 19th. Nikkei Asia's sources say HP, Asus, and Acer are moving some PC production from Thailand and Vietnam back to China.

5:52Dell is reportedly considering doing the same. And of course, it all comes down to cost. AI demand pushing chip prices so high that Trendforce says processors, memory, and storage now make up about 68 % of a mainstream laptop's parts bill. So that's up from around 45%. Early last year, Chinese manufacturers offer cheaper assembly, as we know, easy access to Chinese-made memory. SK Hynix actually believes the memory shortage could last until at least 2030. So that's a ways away.

6:26Sarah Lane: Researchers at Spain's Institute of Photonic Services, it's known as IFCO, found a way to improve solar cell efficiency by limiting how much light escapes after it's already absorbed. The experimental design, and it is experimental, uses an optical cavity to narrow the directions where the cell emits light, reducing energy loss. The team says this could eventually push single junction cells beyond their roughly 33 % theoretical efficiency limit towards 43%. Step in the right direction. The technology is not ready for commercial panels just yet. Okay. The Wikimedia Foundation, which is the nonprofit that runs Wikipedia, filed an amicus brief in the New York Times copyright lawsuit against OpenAI.

7:15It doesn't fully back either side, but Wikimedia believes training a model on copyrighted works is likely fair use. It also believes that copying a website's content to answer a user's question in a chatbot, which we've commonly heard of as RAG or Retrieval Augmented Generation, is not. The judge hasn't ruled on the brief or the fair use question yet. Ooh, that's going to be an interesting spin on that. Wikimedia weighing in on that. I don't know if it'll make any difference. DTNS Live made possible by you. Thanks to every single one of you out there supporting us in whatever way you can, even if it's just listening to the free feeds ads.

7:54But specifically, we want to thank Alan Char, who's been with us since day one. Paul Thiessen, Ali Sinjabi, AB Puppy. And then on the other end of the scale, brand new patrons. Everybody welcome in Carl C., Runn' Step, Ron L., Clay A., and J.M. I'll take an advantage of that half-tober discount, which ends on the 31st. So if you're hearing this before the 31st and you want to get our Patreon at the best possible price, you want to jump in there right now, patreon.com slash DTNS.

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11:45All right, it is time for the big tech question of the week. This week, Apple released the MacBook Pro with ProLED XDR display. And if you couldn't tell from that catchy name, it's a touchscreen laptop, something Steve Jobs resisted making when he led Apple, calling it ergonomically terrible. Now, it'll be interesting to see where Apple goes with this. They really played up the quality of that tandem OLED screen more than making a big deal out of it having a touchscreen. So you might think, well, is it going to go to other MacBook models? Will it cannibalize iPad sales? Those are legitimate questions.

12:17But we think the biggest question is, would Steve Jobs have allowed the touchscreen MacBook? You can vote on which side you would join in our poll at patreon.com slash DTNS. And of course, we've assembled our team to discuss this, taking the position of yes. He thinks, you know what? He would have come around. Roger Chang arguing. No, Steve Jobs definitely would not have allowed that as Rob Dunwood. and joining us from Bloomberg, Nate Langston. Nate, you're going to join Rob's team, eh? Oh, I'm joining Rob on Team No. Okay. I'm No. In the swing seat. We're here. We're here, Tom. Nate and I are here.

12:59In the swing seat, willing to listen to all these arguments, Jason Howell and Sarah Lane. How are you swinging there in the seat?

13:08Sarah Lane: Swinging okay. Left and right. Front and back. Front and back. That's the way you want to go. That's the way it has to be, because that's the way I like it, Tom. We're like yo-yos. We'll see. We'll give each team a couple of minutes to make their statements. Starting off with you, Mr. Roger Chang, would you like to tell us why you think Steve Jobs would have said, Yeah, okay, touchscreen, laptop, let's do it. All right. So Steve Jobs, first and foremost, was very much of the belief that technology should enable the user and not the user trying to figure out how to enable the technology, which is why he famously and incorrectly decided that the first Mac should not have a case fan in it because people would be disturbed by the noise.

13:57And it turned out you actually did want a fan in there because it would overheat. He also has a reason why the original Macs did not have any upgradability because he didn't think that users should open up the machine itself in order to do any sort of upgrade. It should all work out of the box. I think that the touchscreen from when he said it was ergonomically terrible was because at the time there wasn't this slow sort of creeping kind of like cross paths between macOS and iOS. And so there was very much of a user interface that was defined very much by a mouse and keyboard. And yes, using your hand that way on a touchscreen would be very difficult because you're trying to ape all the same features that you would normally do on a keyboard and mouse.

14:51I think in my mind, in my holographic Steve Jobs in my head, that he would very much would have liked to see the iPad and the MacBooks literally become the same device where all that would be done with your hand and you would have a keyboard when you needed to do text entry or anything else. But if it was based on today's technology and sort of kind of the user interface design that Apple has slowly and progressively moved towards, I think you would agree with it. All right. With 10 seconds to spare, a very efficient use of your opening statement. Thank you, Roger Chang. Rob, you and Nate, if you want to jump in with Rob as well, you all have two minutes now, starting now.

15:46Robb Dunewood: I distinctly remember, I believe it was back in 2010, when the iPad was, I believe that's when the iPad was first introduced.

15:54Sarah Lane: It was.

15:55Robb Dunewood: And Steve Jobs famously said that no one would want to use a touchscreen on a vertical screen. It just doesn't make sense. It demos very, very well, which she was right about. And when you go to touch it initially, it'd be OK. But eventually your arm is going to get tired. Eventually, it's going to feel like your arm is going to fall off. That hasn't changed. And I can say as a Windows user who has used touchscreens for decades now, I have a laptop with a perfectly fine touch screen sitting on a docking station that I don't believe I've touched a screen purposely since CES. when i took it with me off the docking station when a laptop is used at a desk or used on a docking station you just don't physically need to touch the screen you could do everything for your mouse and keyboard if you've got a good trackpad that that helps as well but when it's on your lap this is the one area i would disagree with you know with steve jobs when it's on you when you're using it on your lap you push that screen all the way back it kind of is easy to use it that way but that's just not the that's just not the use case for most people so i think that because there is an iPad still, I don't think that he would be on board with the touchscreen because the other part of this is that everyone that I've seen talk about this says, oh yeah, the touchscreen is really, really cool.

17:12Robb Dunewood: Don't know that I would really use it that much, but it's kind of nice. And as a Windows user who has touchscreens, it is so rare that I actually use it when it's on the docking station or sitting on a desk. I just don't. It's not a natural way to use a vertical screen. All right. Nate, do you have anything to add? You got a few seconds left here a few seconds oh i don't get two minutes okay um what should i say uh i basically i agree with what everything rob said um i will say i think he'd be persuaded that it is additive you know it's not a primary interface um and also i've never been a fan of the argument that you know he hated styluses and so would never have liked the apple pencil because as rob said you know you lay it flat it's kind of like paper and i don't think that unless you could lay this device flat.

17:58It offers anything that is as elegant and convenient as an iPad or as a trackpad for interacting with this device. I have more I could say, but we're out of time. Well, yeah, we just want to keep it even on the opening statements, but we're now available to just have an open conversation about it. Our swing seats can weigh in now if you have any questions about this. I think it's interesting that you both centered your arguments around the iPad, both pro and con.

18:26Sarah Lane: Well, because that's such a good example of a touchscreen that really took off. Tablets are extremely normal now. Steve Jobs died in 2011. Is that right? So 15 years ago, give or take a couple of months. And the world was very different then. And the sort of famous line of him saying, no, no, it's ergonomically not feasible, was before that. And it's just things have changed. I see touchscreen laptops in the wild all the time. No Macs yet, but yeah. Oh, yeah. All over the place. My veterinarian, for example, all the vet techs have touchscreens. And I watch them do their things. I'm like, you know what?

19:13Sarah Lane: This is actually better for them. But not tablets? They have touchscreen laptops. Yeah. Because they have to type in stuff. So it's just – it's a one-and-done solution for a lot of folks. But yeah, I just think – I think we're in a different world than we were back in the day. We can all agree that 15 years ago, life was a little bit different. And I just – I don't think that he would have felt so against this as he did once upon a time. in the grave. Well, so this is my argument in that I definitely see Steve Jobs promoting it because he sees a convergence between the laptop and the tablet. Because we're at the stage where if you actually break down a contemporary MacBook, the actual motherboard, the logic board, is a lot smaller and would actually fit in a tablet, an iPad, a large iPad form factor rather well.

20:13The biggest thing you lose is just battery life because you can't cram as much lithium-ion material inside a... Oh, I mean, you could, but then it wouldn't be as easy to hold. But I think there's a convergence happening. And it's kind of weird to say is because when the iMac came out, that was sort of what Steve Jobs always wanted in a Mac in that it is, again, dumb and easy to put together, and you're using it right out of the box. He only went with the larger tower because there was a demand, at least a market demand, for that style. But in sort of Steve Jobs' mind of how technology should enable people, you shouldn't spend so much time plugging things in.

20:58And I think if the MacBook iPad convergence, which I still think will happen maybe 10, 15 years down the road, is one device, everything else is ancillary, right? the keyboard you can have as a separate device a mouse whatever if you need to sit down need to plug it into something else but it's why didn't apple make a convertible because they're not the

21:19Robb Dunewood: greatest laptops in the world to use um so so here's the thing i want to make sure that i'm actually answering the prompt the prompt was would steve jobs today say that the touch screens are are the way to go i don't think that he would that is not me saying that i don't like touch screens. I would not want my Dell XPS to not have a touchscreen, but I admit that if it didn't have a touchscreen, I probably would still have the exact same Dell XPS because I just don't need it in the way that I use it. There is no MacBook that you can flip and lay flat. There is no MacBook that's a two-in-one where you can literally fold the screen back over and use it as a tablet.

21:53Robb Dunewood: That doesn't exist. So I'm going based off of what exists in the Mac ecosystem today, in the Apple ecosystem. There are iPads, which aren't going away anytime soon, And there are MacBooks. MacBooks, in the way they're configured today, simply would not make a good touch device. As light as this brand new MacBook Pro is, people are going to get it for that. I don't know that people are going to say, oh, you know what? Finally, a touchscreen. I'm now going to go out and buy a Mac. I don't think that's going to move the needle for a lot of people just because it is still a lot easier to use. that brand new MacBook Pro with the touchscreen.

22:30Robb Dunewood: It's still easier to use a trackpad and a mouse when you're using it in a traditional configuration. Maybe if you're sitting with it in your lap and you kind of put the keyboard on your stomach and let the screen kind of lay in your lap and you want to touch it that way, it would be fine to use for an extended period of time, but just using a vertical touchscreen is one of the most annoying things in computing today to me still. I'm listening to this. So I'm on the swings, the in the swing position here. And I think part of the reason that I put myself in the swing position is because when I think of Steve Jobs, and I think of this question, I think of two different people that Steve Jobs was when he was alive.

23:11He was a strong believer in what is right and wrong for products from his perspective. And he was a strong business person in, I think, in many ways, often understanding what he felt people might want and might want to use. And I think to that end, Sarah, I completely agree with what you said. It's been a lot of times since he passed away. And a lot has changed in the last 15, 16 years in technology. I have to imagine as I'm sitting here thinking about this stuff, I think I'm on team yes, because I have to imagine that Steve Jobs, if he really was still doing all this stuff, 15, 16 years later, so much has happened in technology.

23:54Convergence continues to take place in a lot of different ways. He's a strong enough business person to, I think, recognize that maybe there's a point in time at which it does make sense and I'm allowed to change my mind and do that. So I think that's where I think that I don't disagree with any of that. One of the things I did think about ahead of this conversation was the number of times Jobs changed his mind during his own lifetime, because he generally believed that a product was only viable when the technology was good enough to make it simple. And so, for instance, you know, I mean, we talked about the Apple Pencil, but you could go back before.

24:37You know, he never wanted videos on an iPod. And then suddenly the screens got slightly better and the batteries got better. And then maybe music videos and then maybe TV shows and things could be good on an iPad, on an iPod. The original development for the for the touchscreen was not for the iPhone. It was for an iPad. And then they said, well, this is this is kind of good. some of the technology is not quite right to do this as a tablet, but this could work really well for a phone. So they park the iPad and then they work on the phone instead. And I think I may have come up in the biography that Walter Isaacson wrote.

25:09So he did change his mind and could be persuaded to swing from being vehemently against something to being pro. And so one of the notes that I wrote was basically that if he was persuaded that this was an additive interface rather than like an exclusive primary interface. And they'd done enough to make the hinge not wobble because I think that would have annoyed him if he touched it and it folded back and they supposedly done stuff like that. Basically, if they got to the point where the industrial design got out of the way, he may have said, this is interesting, go and develop it further. But I don't think the product as it is now, and a caveat that I haven't used it, is necessarily something he'd say, that's a great idea, let's put that on sale.

25:51I think that's the key right there, right? because they have reinforced the hinge, right? That is something that they talked about, that it shouldn't move when you touch it. They definitely played it as, oh, and you can touch the screen now. That's not the feature. That's not the main feature. It's just an additive part of this wonderful MacBook Pro experience with the tandem OLED screen and all of that. I think the impulse for asking this question, because I've seen lots of people asking this question this week, isn't so much like, let's imagine what Steve Jobs would do if he were here today.

26:24It's more, is this a betrayal of Apple's traditional design philosophy? And that's why I found, Nate, your remark interesting is that you're saying there's nothing that Steve Jobs would have absolutely said you could never do this if it's done right. But that's the question. Is this done right? Yeah, that's definitely what I was saying.

26:48Sarah Lane: Well, Apple's also pretty famously not the first company to do stuff you know new technology foldables that that that's a category definitely not the first company to do it but a company who was like you know what there's some legs here let's give it a shot so so saying yeah this doesn't work when nobody's tried it yet is way different than saying we don't do this because it's our company philosophy when people are buying these products That's definitely true. And the bigger issue would have been, would he have liked the sheer volume of variations of individual product categories? Because there I'd be a hard no.

27:31Hard no. I agree with him on that still.

28:01Robb Dunewood: today talking about a MacBook with a touchscreen, I would still fall in the camp if it took folks who never said that they weren't going to do this to actually do it. I'm wondering if Steve Jobs would have come around to this point yet, or maybe would he have said, you know what, those hinges that fully fold, those are kind of cool. Maybe we should investigate that. I can't know that. So I'm going based off of what exists today. There is no MacBook that exists that is the perfect form factor to really truly utilize a touchscreen. That may change, but that doesn't exist today, so it's not elegant.

28:32Robb Dunewood: It's going to still feel like you're touching a vertical screen and your arm is going to get tired doing it. I mean, this is the thing. I mean, like Steve Jobs presided over a number of products that sort of had a flash in the pan. The G4 Cube, what was the iPod Hi-Fi? Those are things that people don't remember because they lasted so, they had such a short shelf life on the market. iPod sucks. I loved the Hi-Fi, by the way. I loved them. But I think, you know, So let's just imagine Steve Jobs here. He would have preferred a bunch of technologies kind of converge. He would want an OS that would allow you to maximize the amount of what you could do with touch.

29:15You would have a converged. You would have Mac iOS. It would just be the one OS. They've already done a bunch with the technology. If you look at a MacBook, actually even any new Mac Silicon board, the boards are really small. Everything's soldered on. It's a single – that would be great because it allows you to put a number of different products. But to Rod's point, I don't think you necessarily need a machine that folds over or twists around to have a laptop that's a tablet because the Microsoft Surface showed us that you can have one that has a detachable, removable keyboard as an accessory.

29:58And therefore, everything is just on this tablet. You want a keyboard, great. You put it on the dock, you type it. But because you can do it doesn't mean you should do it. It doesn't mean that that is the best product. And again, I want to bring us back around because Steve Jobs himself said when he resigned or when he stepped down from Apple, Don't do what I would do. Do what you think is the best thing to do. And when we talk about Apple's design philosophy, which, again, I think is really what's behind this question. It's less about like, what would Steve Jobs do? It's is this Apple continuing to be good at what Apple has historically been doing?

30:35and and i don't know i don't know if this is the proper apple step forward of like yes to put a touchscreen in this is how you do it or if this is a departure and it's the beginning of john turnus's reign so it's it's an important moment to look at that and say is he a good steward of that apple philosophy the way tim cook has been i wonder if they're getting a bulk rate on touchscreens like hey if you get x amount of screens i mean apple always gets a bulk rate on everything. Their supply chain foo is out the window. But the screen exists because Apple said

31:12Robb Dunewood: they want it. That's the only reason it's here. But what I'm saying is is it more cost effective just to have the one rather than slowly having to... This is an OLED tandem screen that's not being used in any other products, so I'm not sure that that gives them a whole lot of advantage there. I mean, let's... But does anybody else have any thoughts about whether this fits into the Apple tradition or not? But this is the thing. Ever since the iPad – oh, not iPad. What's the goggle thing? Apple Vision Pro. The Apple Vision Pro. I pretty much believe that Apple has taken the exit, taken the off-ramp, and decided to drive through the valley of let's try everything and see what sticks kind of attitude.

32:05Really? I don't think so. I think they've always done that.

32:08Robb Dunewood: They've had turds before the Vision Pro. And there's a lot of product categories they are not messing with right now. I mean, the biggest turds all came after Steve Jobs got canned and then right before he got re-hired. Right? Under Scully. When did they do the game console? Because that's the one that I... That was under Scully. That was in the 90s, yeah. Under Scully. That was under Scully. They also had the Newton. They also had the first Mac portable, which had a car battery in it, which made it 16 pounds, which made it very unlight. They also had the Mac clones, which Steve Jobs hated. It's like you're cannibalizing our sales.

32:56I like what Larry at Atlanta says. Knowing Apple, they're going to set it so you can only use certain fingers on the screen.

33:04Robb Dunewood: it's kind of cool you can usually use all 10 samuel recognizes all 10 so open yeah you mentioned cannibalization it's an interesting one because he i'm sure he said at one point if you don't cannibalize yourself then somebody else will yeah and you know he was always for that yeah he was totally always for that you know he knew that doing what they did with the iphone was going to kill the ipod but the view with this was such a big opportunity that it didn't matter and but But that's the thing. He wanted to cannibalize. He didn't want Super Mac or ProStar or whatever else making Mac compatibles eating into their market.

33:39It's one thing to eat into your own stores. It's another thing when your neighbor does it. Yeah. No, and to the point of like this would cannibalize iPad sales, traditionally Apple doesn't care. They're like, great. As long as we're the ones benefiting from that cannibalization, we don't mind. That's just advancing the products. The touchscreen isn't the only thing that makes the iPad the iPad, right? That's one facet of it, too. So just adding a touchscreen to a laptop doesn't immediately on its own mean, oh, well, I don't need to use an iPad ever again because it's got many other reasons why.

34:14Round the horn, do we think this is a danger sign for John Ternus, sort of like doesn't tell you one thing or another, or a positive sign for John Ternus? I'm happy to go first and say. Let's start with Rob.

34:28Robb Dunewood: Oh, sorry. I think this is a positive thing. So like I said, I'm answering the prompt. I don't think Steve Jobs today would be on board with touchscreens. Sure. I think a touchscreen Mac is a brilliant idea because eventually this is just the, you know, this is the gateway drug. Folks are going to see, ooh, that's pretty. I can't afford$3 ,000,$4 ,000 for a laptop, but can you make this in an Air model? Okay, here you go. What about a Neo model? A Neo model that folds over? There is a market for that, for an inexpensive device with a touchscreen that is also a full-fledged Mac. So I think that this is an area where John Ternus can actually have a bit of wind behind him and say, we can do a bunch of things here.

35:08Nate, what about you? I mean, in answer to the question about what Jobs would have thought, I know we've gone over that. I don't think anybody is going to buy this Mac specifically because it has a touchscreen, at least not yet. and so it's kind of like well does it matter that it has one is it increasing the cost of that display not really um the oled is the real innovation there and it's more like well you might as well and and make the software usable and and and that's great but it's it really it's not a big deal talking about whether steve jobs would have liked it is is super super interesting but i think at the end of the day this is not the great innovation like this it's better than the the old touch bar that the you know the the macs the macbook pros had there oh sarah's a fan controversial but it's but it's basically like well why not shove it in it's it's not a big deal but i don't think it's a huge product roger do you think it's good bad or neither for john i think it's i think it's too early to tell so i'll go with the uh neither at this point i will say i think it is forward looking because they're looking ahead to what the demographic will be and you're coming up with a group of my kids included where their primary interaction with a computing device is via the screen.

36:26You touch the screen. They do it with a my computer. They used to touch the screen and wonder why the mouse cursor didn't move. So to them, using a mouse and keyboard is alien. Yeah. Jason, do you think John will turn us around on a touchscreen MacBook? I see what you did there. I would say it's neither. This isn't John Ternus' decision or wasn't his decision. He didn't make this touchscreen laptop. I don't know how - Personally on his own in his garage, yeah. Was he the one driving this behind the scenes when Tim Cook was still leading the company? It's hard to say. I'm sure he had input on it, but yeah, yeah.

37:01Yeah, I'm sure he had some input. You know, he just kind of steps in. This product was already clearly going to come out. He's going to be judged on it just because it's his - I suppose so. His first big announcement, one of his first big announcements. I don't know. I think it gives him an opportunity if it is a misstep to be like, hey, you know what? That was early. we've made mistakes we've made calculations and yeah yeah you know all right sarah last word on

37:24Sarah Lane: john turnus will he survive i think so i i i listen good news john the macbook i can't even remember the name off the top of my head because it just doesn't flow off the tongue all that i have to look it up yeah well yeah but um what we're talking about i think that it is it's going to appeal to a lot of folks. It's way overpriced. That's just the reality of laptops in general right now, but certainly Apple laptops. So I'm not going to be getting one, but I like the idea of a touchscreen that is also a fully formed MacBook Pro with all the other bells and whistles. I think it's a great idea. I always have.

38:07Yeah. I feel like the general tenor is people are like, no, I don't mind a touchscreen in my laptop. Maybe Steve Jobs wouldn't have liked it. Maybe he would have come around. But you know what? It's probably a fine idea for Apple to try it out. All right, Sarah, what's on Live With It this week?

38:23Sarah Lane: Oh, Tom, I'm glad you asked. We love putting gadgets, services, platforms to the test. So your new favorite show, besides GTNS Live, of course, is Live With It. In fact, this week we're glamping. You know what glamping is? that's when Bode Grimm puts a mattress in his Tesla and tells us all about it it actually sounds pretty awesome but he has thoughts they're good and they're bad we are on YouTube at youtube.com slash at livewithitshow and you can subscribe, help us get the word out, help other people find us thank you in advance for doing that and big, big thanks to all of our patrons you are the ones who keep us trying out new things each and every week patreon.com slash livewithit to join the crew way.

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40:13And Gadget and a few other outlets have been publishing reviews of Google Books now that they've had them for a while. For example, Gadget calls the Lenovo Google Book 15 your Android phone's new best friend. So our next question of the week isn't a debate. It's did Rob Dunwood keep his Google Book or return it? The answer is yes. Rob, explain how that can be. What did you do?

40:38Robb Dunewood: So the answer is yes, because I'm a glutton for punishment, I guess. So I still have a Lenovo Google Book. And this thing, the hardware, it is quite nice. It is what you would expect for an$1 ,100,$1 ,200 piece of hardware. The hardware is fine. I have no complaints with it. Before this, I also had the Dell, the XPS version of the Google book. That went back pretty quick because it simply just didn't work. When I got it, I didn't get it day one. I got like day two or day three. But it just would not work with my phone. So what they didn't tell you is that at the time when the Google books were released, they only worked with pixels.

41:21Robb Dunewood: I don't use a pixel. Therefore, it was a$1 ,200 piece of hardware that I just simply couldn't use because I couldn't pair it with my phone. It simply just didn't work. So that one, I didn't really review it. It was more of just a shaking my hand. I can't believe Google released this. But I did want to go and try, you know, once some updates came out, I wanted to go and try the Lenovo because, number one, it's a beautiful piece of hardware. It's the fit. The fit and finish on this is exactly what you would expect for a piece of hardware that costs over a thousand dollars. It is a nice laptop. The screen is beautiful.

41:57Robb Dunewood: It's got an OLED display on it. It's great. But that's where I will stop with the nice, you know, the niceties and the pleasantries with the Google book. The Google book, in my opinion, should never have been released in the state that it was released. The operating system, Google Book OS, which is a horrible name for an operating system in the first place, is a horrible operating system because it just doesn't work. And I know that there are people who are trying their best to do reviews of it. I can't do a proper review to tell you what's good and what's bad because I still, even though my brand new, or in my case, my sister's brand new Samsung Fold 8 that came with One UI 9 and Android 17 on it, I wasn't able to interface with this.

42:42Robb Dunewood: and my year-old Galaxy S25 Ultra that also has Android 17 and one UI simply just will not pair. And this is an issue for a lot of people. There are a lot of reviewers that are saying, well, it should work now because the updates are here. It just doesn't work with my phone. This phone works. That phone doesn't work. So just getting the basic pairing of your phone, which is one of the selling points of why you would get a Google Book in the first place, is to pair it with your Android phone and just have a symmetry between two devices where they seem like you're using one. It doesn't exist in my world.

43:14Robb Dunewood: Nothing I've been able to do has been able to get this thing to work. But if that were the only thing, it wouldn't be so bad. That's okay. Well, they'll probably put a patch out and it'll get fixed. The software is just buggy. There's just things in it. There are things that are in the interface that were made for Android, but because it's a laptop, you see the thing in the interface, but you can't click on it. You can't press it. There's just a fit and finish that this thing does not have. And to me, that is not a hardware problem. That is it is a complete Google problem that they put out an operating system that simply just was not ready for prime time.

43:51So you're saying there's potential.

43:55Robb Dunewood: I will have this until tomorrow when I have to return. I have to return tomorrow because it's two weeks ago. Is this going back tomorrow? It is definitely going back tomorrow. OK, so they're both going back. Yeah, they're already going back. So, yeah, this is this is going back as well.

44:11Sarah Lane: What you hit on, Rob, was it's just that the whole Android work seamlessly on the Google book is not the experience that you've had. And that is exactly the experience that Google says you will have. And that's a big problem. Yeah.

44:28Robb Dunewood: All the cool googly stuff that you can do where I can or where I can't because it hasn't worked for me, but where you can have an app on your Android phone. and that app is just now being mirrored on your Google Book or files that are just seamless as far as moving files back and forth between the Google Book and your phone. It just doesn't exist for me because I have not been able to do anything to actually get it to pair with a phone that's like 14, 15 months old that should absolutely work with this piece of hardware. Because it only works with the Pixel right now. That's why, right? Well, no.

45:01Robb Dunewood: So some Samsung users have gotten theirs to work. Ah, okay. The ones that work and the ones that don't, we haven't been able to figure it out. I have failed twice. I failed with a Samsung Fold 8. That didn't work. And my S25 Ultra does not work with all the right software. So when I try to pair it, it'll start going through the pairing process, and it just stops. I just get stuck with the QR code on the screen on the Google book, and I get stuck in a settings screen on the phone, and there's no way to X out of either. You've got to reboot the device. So every time I actually turn the Google book off, I've got to go even repair like the Bluetooth just to get it to be able to, you know, just just things that should work.

45:47Robb Dunewood: Just they just don't work. And so for me, it has been unreveable. I have there's nothing I have good to say about it because I haven't been able to actually review it. I can't get it to work well enough to actually give it a a full fledged review. Yeah. Are we doing an episode of couldn't live with it? it'll be it'll be short if we do i'm sending it back like it final thoughts rob can't live with yeah i'm an android guy and i you know i really want this to work but the os that there are quirks in the operating system it's like that just shouldn't be here um and now i want to be completely fair to google google has failed miserably with tablets they just haven't done well with them.

46:31Robb Dunewood: So there's been no reason for developers to create full desktop class applications. But Google, you create your own full desktop class applications. Why do they not run on your own hardware? That makes no sense. If I'm using Google's device, you have to know that, hey, if I'm in the web browser, I want to be in the web browser. Don't make it pop open the Android app. If I'm in the web browser, it shouldn't do that. That doesn't happen on On a Windows PC, say, would you like to install it? I know you can't really install it. Technically, you can install Android apps on a Windows PC if you do some things to make that happen.

47:09Robb Dunewood: But it's just weirdness. Why are you asking me to install an app if I'm just in a web interface? I'm in the web interface because the app doesn't work great on a tablet interface. So let me use the web interface where it actually works a little bit better. So there's just little things like that, things that should be apps or not apps. They're just a wrapped version of a web page to make it look like an app, but they're not an app. So there's lots of little things. It should work at least as good as a Chromebook in my estimation. It doesn't. I can't use one password on it. Why? Because I happen to have the x86 version right now.

47:45Robb Dunewood: I don't remember one password not working on the Dell. I think it worked there, but it doesn't work on this one. So I can't even use my password vault in chrome because of incompatibilities with the hardware Google should have had that figured out before they released it This feels very much like an early beta not even like a late beta It's not even a release candidate. This feels like an early beta that should not have cost$1 ,200 It should have been hey give us$600 We'll give you the device but you have to tell us what you think and help us make the thing better And then you'll get a discount on when you buy one later that's what it should have been but it just the operating system to me just doesn't feel like it's ready for prime time because this is not a device this is a production device if you haven't decided to send that thing back then i think you've just persuaded yourself to send that thing back based on that argument yeah um yeah it's unusable for me so yeah it's definitely going back i kept it because i knew we were going to talk about it today on the show so i'm probably going to take it back either tonight or first thing tomorrow morning because it has to be back by sunday that's That's my two-week deadline.

48:49I have one question for you, Rob. Is the screen touchscreen? It is. So when you had that issue where you couldn't mouse up to the menu item, could you touch it to activate it or no?

49:01Robb Dunewood: Sometimes you have no choice. This operating system is so bad that sometimes you have no choice but to touch the screen in order to use it because the interface was built for touch. So you have to use the touchscreen. If this did not have a touchscreen, it would even be it simply would not be a turn on a device at that point. But, yeah, the touchscreen is necessary because some things you can't use a keyboard and mouse for. So like if I am in let's say that I'm actually using like, you know, Excel on here and you want to select a bunch of cells, it's very difficult to just use the mouse to do it.

49:35Robb Dunewood: It's much easier to just take your fingers and just do it like if you were on a tablet. So it's just not good. did you ever use the old um it was like 2013 2012 2013 and google released a chromebook which was a pixel book or chrome pixel i think it was a chrome the pixel wasn't around in 2012 but so i think it was a nexus because no no no no this was this was a laptop this is like it was a chromebook that google made and it was really expensive 2017 oh yeah it was called the pixel yeah the pixel book Earlier than that. Way earlier than that. Okay. Because I was still at Wired at the time, and I left Wired in 2015.

50:16So I think it was like a Chromebook. I think it was called a Chromebook Pixel. Yes, 2013 Chromebook Pixel. There it is. Oh, wow. Google released this thing. It was really expensive. I had one. I had like a review unit that I had for about three months from Google. And I remember thinking at the time, this is wildly overengineered for what was essentially just a web browser. because it was like early Chrome OS. And I remember thinking at that point that it felt like somebody had been in charge of designing the hardware. Someone else had been in charge of designing the software and the interface, and they'd never had a conversation with each other and they shipped the two things.

50:53And so it ended up being this beautiful piece of aluminium that you just basically wanted to play with, but it basically just had a web browser in it. And what's the point? And what it sounds like hearing you describe this is that that same issue is at play, that you've got quite nice hardware, but the software still is not like it's not gelling like those two teams are not talking to each other yet. So that's like 13 years of development that should have pour more fruits than it has. And it was$1 ,299 back then, too.

51:25Robb Dunewood: Yeah. Was it really? I totally forgot. I had that. I used that for years. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of people telling me that I'm being too harsh on Google that this is, well, it's just a 1.0 device. but they charge full price for it and you can buy it in Best Buy I mean so I don't give a company that type of pass because it's our 1.0 device it's like keeping them beta longer it makes it actually work doesn't sound like it's 1.0 yet right Google's been making laptops for over a decade now so they should have had some of these things figured out this is not as good as a tablet in tablet mode and it is not as good as a Chromebook it's The power of it is nice.

52:04Robb Dunewood: So when you're in Chrome and you're just doing Chrome stuff, it is the best Chromebook I've ever used. I will be honest and say that. But I would never pay$1 ,200 for a Chrome window because you know what I could do? I could just go buy a Dell XPS for$1 ,200 and have a whole Windows operating system and get to Chrome just as effectively on that device that actually has an underlying operating system that is usable. Yeah. All right. I think other than that, you love it, right? I love that I can return it inside of the 14-day return window with no budget back. Let's get to our last question of the week.

52:48In the spirit of Halloween, we're just going to go around the table and talk about what tech scares us the most. Could be for any reason. It's just kind of a lighthearted Halloween tech scary topic. So, Nate, we'll start with you. I am not joking when I tell you that the thing that scares me most in tech right now are phone calls. Regular phone calls. My phone ringing, my watch vibrating and thinking, oh, crap. Who is it? What is it? Because in recent memory, and we have talked about this when I've been on the show before, we've talked about people who send texts, often our parents who say things like, call me.

53:28the immediate thought anybody ever has is they're injured someone's died there's been an accident or or something else and i generally have now found that the only people who call me when i'm not expecting those calls are either it turns out spam callers and they have freaked me out in recent years certainly in recent weeks thinking who is who is who are these people who are persistently trying to call me and get through what has happened what have i done who's died um like what has gone on that like i've genuinely had like quite anxious phone calls with my wife and my brother in in recent weeks where they've had to sort of remind me that these aren't people who are calling with terrible news like these are just like robo calls that are coming from randomly generated numbers it's just because now they look like they're coming from specific cities And then my brain is thinking, who do I know in that city?

54:24Have I been there? And my brain, like psychologically, is making this like link that shouldn't exist. But even aside from just that, there is the fact that anything that to me now is important, it comes through text or it comes through email. It's not people who call. The people who call are the ones with serious problems that are either my problem or their problem. I don't mean they've got a problem that they're calling me like, what is your problem? Phoning me? Although sometimes that's also true. So to me, I would be so much happier if I could just turn off phone calls and never have to have another phone call again because they're more trouble than they're worth for me.

55:04And that's why I find phone calls terrifying. What happened to the iPod Touch? That would be perfect. That would be exactly what you want. Yeah. That's a good answer. All right, Jason, what scares you about tech? It's a good answer. Or what tech scares you? Either one. I like that. I think the easy thing, and I might not be alone in saying this, some people listening, right? The easy thing to jump to is it's a very now thing, which is artificial intelligence. And because it's this big Herculean thing that is consuming all of technology and the agents are going rogue and all this stuff. I always try to have a really balanced perspective on this stuff.

55:41And certainly I practice that with Jeff on the podcast that I do with him because he has a very balanced perspective. So sometimes he's the one giving me the reason why you don't need to be so scared of the technology or whatever the case may be. But I sometimes find myself there anyways. And what I realized when I read this question and really thought about it, it's not that artificial intelligence is a scary technology to me. But there is a fear. There is a fear that sometimes comes up for me that's associated with it. What I realize is it's not the technology itself. I'm more concerned with the people who choose to misuse it.

56:21That's the thing that I get scared of is like, okay, well, here's this technology that is incredibly powerful. If in the right hands, you can do some amazing things. But I also know that there are people – people are very unpredictable. There are people who don't mind watching the world burn. And this is a very, very powerful technology in the wrong hands. I'm sure it can do really powerful and scary things. So I think it's not the tech that I'm scared of. It's the people who misuse it. It's people misusing those kinds of models. Yeah, that makes sense. All right, Sarah Lane, does anything at all scare you?

56:58Everything does. I'm terrified at all times. Is there anything that doesn't scare you?

57:03Sarah Lane: Pumpkin pie doesn't scare me. I'm ready. Let's do it. I'm ready. Let's do it. But no, my first reaction when I heard this question was AI. Because you've got companies like Anthropic going public now in their filing saying, yeah, things might change a little bit if like 50 or more people die as a result of this technology. and you kind of go like, oh, okay. This is actually, these companies actually understand that if something were to go extremely wrong, for example, I don't know, tap water gets poisoned, you know, in a community, that sort of thing. Really bad. But I'm going to table AI for a second because I think we're all sort of afraid of AI, even though we're all using it in some form or fashion.

57:56Sarah Lane: And I'm going to say drones. drones actually do scare me and it's not because i don't think that drone footage is cool it is um many years well not many years ago but let's say i don't know like five years ago um i was at a park with my dog just kind of just running around you know throwing the tennis ball type thing and there was a drone above us and another guy came up to me and said is that your drone because he thought i i was running it which i wasn't and i was like no it's not it's not my drone? He was like, yeah, because it's been following me. And you know, I'm feeling really weird about this.

58:32Sarah Lane: Like, you sure it's not you? And I was like, Nope, bye. I'm out of here. But and that was just a weird isolated incident where I was like, Oh, well, he's just somebody who's, you know, he's got some issues. But now that drone technology has advanced so much to the point where a drone can be a bomb, that is something that I do worry about. I don't think anybody would target me specifically, but I know that in military capacity, it is very much a thing because you don't have to have a human driver. You can send it way farther away than you are at the time and still be able to keep eyes on it, so to speak.

59:20Sarah Lane: And yeah, whenever I see a drone in the sky these days i'm sort of like what's going on what are they doing to me it's a good one yeah yeah okay that that is an interesting one uh rob dunwood is there a tech that scares you

59:35Robb Dunewood: yeah i'm gonna channel uh jason a little bit and people using ai improperly but more specifically i am concerned about biotech in ai i just watched the other day or was on at least Resident Evil, the final chapter, really, we mean it this time. We're never going to make another one, that edition. And it just reminds me, it's like, you know, if you have AI, they can just try things over and over and over and over at the speed of what AI can do things. And you've got gene sequencing and you've got novel proteins being made. You could wreak havoc on populations of people or animals or things that live and breathe.

1:00:17Robb Dunewood: And that's kind of concerning because it's like, you know, I want to make sure that, you know, that we're doing these kind of things at the CDC and not at Raccoon City, you know, in some bunker that goes 37 stories down. But that is a thought. It's like there's a lot of havoc that could be wreaked on Earth with, you know, unscrupulous people using gene sequencing and protein modification at the speed of AI. That's a good one. The bioweapon part of this is very scary, whether it has an LLM or an agent attached to it or not. Anything that makes it easier to make a bioweapon is frightening. Yeah, I'm with you.

1:00:57Roger, is there a tech that scares you or are you fearless? I'm not so much fearless. It's more of a conglomeration of technology. So, you know, AI, drones. And really what it comes down to is we're having, in real time, we're having a revolution, another revolution in military implementation, what they used to call revolution military affairs. It's what used to cost countries millions of dollars you can now do for tens of thousands of dollars. And it's brought the cost of a lot of different types of actions down to the point where you can be a little more reckless with it because it doesn't cost you too much to do so or to proliferate certain technologies that you see, whether you're talking about the Strait of Hormuz or the Strait that goes around Yemen, where you just have a lot of really inexpensive technologies wreaking a lot of havoc in a way that is globally, economically significant.

1:02:05It's not just like it's only affecting these people. It's affecting everyone. And I think with that is you just get a lot of people think, well, it's so cheap. Why not do it? It enables people to have a different sort of thought process. To try things that they may be usually. Exactly. Yeah. I think the thing that scares me the most about technology is the weaponization of information that it makes possible. The fact that every single one of us, myself included, can be convincingly fooled by something we see online. The disconnection between our actual experiences and what we think is happening.

1:02:45One of the things that I think is the most frightening possibility is mass action taken to solve a problem that didn't exist, but everyone is convinced did. And therefore, the cure being worse than the disease because there was no disease. I think we all need to constantly remind us that the world we see online is not necessarily the actual world. And that doesn't mean you can't learn things online. That doesn't mean you can't get a better picture of what's going on and that you should be informed. But it is very easy, and I see it more and more frequently. Someone convinced that something is happening and they need to react to it.

1:03:33and they're wrong. It's not there. And I've caught myself doing that too. So this is not like those idiots out there. This is all of us. This is something we're swimming in and it's hard. It's really hard to see. It goes from the pig butchering fraud stuff that will trick you into handing over your bank account, even though you are incredibly tech savvy. There are hundreds of examples of that, all the way to political action and all of that sort of thing. I think that is the thing that scares me the most, is that we just won't, we will do something as a society that there was no rational basis for because we have misunderstood the situation because of this wealth of information that we're just not equipped to deal with.

1:04:22That's a good one.

1:04:23Robb Dunewood: That's a real good one. That reminds me of that HBO movie, Mountainhead, if you haven't seen it. It walks in similar territory of exactly what you're talking about. It's very worth watching, written by the Succession creator. It's very good. Well, I hope we've cheered you up with all of these fears of technology.

1:04:40Sarah Lane: Are you sufficiently scared? Yes. Get your fun-sized sneakers and kick-ups.

1:04:47Robb Dunewood: Every time I try to turn it on, he turns it on, guys. Positive thoughts. Thank you for helping us get a better understanding of these questions, everybody. We talked about the approval of MacBook with a touchscreen. We're talking about Rob returning all the Google Books. And we're scared by a lot of tech. Thank you, Nate Langston, for joining us today. What do you got going on to tell folks about? Well, I most recently did a film that's not really techie, but it's sort of looking at the state of Japan. and on the anniversary of Prime Minister Takeichi's sort of first year in power there. So that is out on Bloomberg Originals on the YouTube channel or on Bloomberg.com if you want to look it up.

1:05:30I voice it. So if you like this voice, there's another 12 and a half minutes of it at least. Oh, fantastic. You can hear talking about Japan. I do like your voice. I would like to hear that. And I would like to hear about Takeichi in Japan. So I'm going to definitely go check that out. I go to YouTube.com. Where? Boom, boom.com. No, YouTube.com slash business, I think. Slash app business, isn't it? Sorry, the business bit. We all have so many URLs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Slash app business. Yeah. Fantastic. Big thanks to everybody who supports us in all the various ways. Earlier in the show, Paley Glendale gave us a super sticker.

1:06:07Thank you, Paley Glendale, for that. Very much appreciated. we also have people supporting us on twitch chaz bazden resubscribed morbius 65 stealth dave ryan and minneapolis all resubscribed uh this week and don't forget to use your hype points on youtube as well that helps other people uh discover the show uh thank you everybody who supports us on patreon once again half tober for one more day uh by the end of october 31st if you get in there You can get a 50 % off discount to become a brand new patron. Like all those new patrons that we've been welcoming all week long, that could be you as well.

1:06:46And we've got another special event coming up, right, Sarah?

1:06:49Sarah Lane: Yeah, we do. So patrons, don't forget our, our weekly game with Roger is coming right up. Don't go anywhere, but Dr. Nikki and when are doing a let's play to help raise money for girls who code that's tomorrow, Saturday, October 1st at 11 a.m. Eastern head over to tech, technicaltea.show for all the details. Fantastic. Thanks again, patrons. Thank you for supporting us. Thank you for watching. This weekend is Artists and Tech. On Saturday, Scott Johnson tells us about his experience using the Vibe-coded Artcraft software to make his art. And on Sunday, three published authors tell us the tech they use to write.

1:07:29It's all at dailytechnewsshow.com.

1:07:37This week's episodes of Daily Tech News Show were brought to you by the following people. Host Jen Cutter, host Rob Dunwood, host Jason Howell, host Sarah Lane and host Tom Merritt. Producer Roger Chang, producer Anthony Lemos, video producer Joe Kuntz, editor Hammond Chamberlain. Contributing producers Kevin Tech, Noel Cow and Brandon Richards. Social media producer and moderator Zoe Detterding. Our mods, Beatmaster, W's Got Us One, BioCow, Cotton Kipper, Steve Duatarama, Paul Reese, Matthew J. Stephens and J.D. Galloway. Mod and video hosting by Dan Christensen Music provided by Martin Bell and Dan Luters Art by Len Peralta Acast ad support from Todd Tuchek Patreon support and a snack at a pub From Bobby Wagner Our guests this week were Nate Langston, Brian Brushwood And Rich Trafalino And thanks to all our patrons who make this show possible

1:08:28This show is part of the Frog Pants Network Get more at frogpants.com Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this broker.

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