Microsoft Faces Its Own Pirate Books AI Lawsuit - DTNSB 5048

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2:23you need to know with a big story. It is another one of those weeks where it's not just a big story, it's big stories, but there's a really kind of interesting linking thread between these, which you'll catch pretty quickly here. Just two days ago, Tom and I talked on this show about Anthropics' fair use win in the U.S. that court related to, or U.S. court, sorry, related to copyrighted books used to train its AI models. Of course, that's still going on because of the pirated source of a lot of that training material. But today, there's a bunch of related stories on this topic. So let's dig in.

3:04We'll start with the first one. A group of authors have sued Microsoft in New York federal court. They're alleging the company used nearly 200 ,000 pirated digital books, so very similar to the Anthropic case, without consent to train its Megatron AI model. They charge the AI with mimicking the style and the content of those works. I feel like that's standard operating procedure when you train something, you know, that's kind of a similar, you know, similarly what they do. And they are seeking a court order to halt Microsoft's actions, along with statutory damages of up to$150 ,000 per work. Don't have a whole lot more to go on here other than that.

3:47And just kind of the idea that this really hinges on the pirated kind of source of all of these books. In this case, you know, who knows if Microsoft bought a stash of books the way Anthropic did in their case. But a little different, a little the same. What do you think? I think that tech bros should no longer be allowed to name things. So much Lord of the Rings. Oh, come on. Megatron isn't that bad. I was going to say, like, they know Megatron's the bad guy, right? Yeah, right. Yeah, totally. That's a good point. I'm trying to think, like, okay, what do they go through next? I'm assuming if they go with that era, some G.I.

4:29Joe people, maybe some Thundercats up in there. Just mix it up a little. Something along those lines. Yeah, I mean, Megatron, I got to say, is, you know, all cartoons aside, is not an AI model that I am super familiar with. So I'm interested in kind of learning a little more about it. God, I'm trying to even figure out if I've really even heard that name being thrown around. But nonetheless, 200 ,000 pirated digital books, probably BitTorrent, and in that case, very similar to what we're hearing from Anthropic, which is still kind of facing the heat in that case, even though part of that case has been more or less passed by from Judge Alsip.

5:13So I guess what I'm seeing here is that there may be kind of like a trend that we're kind of headed toward right now where we're going to start hearing more about kind of what is the source of this content that is used. We understand the fair use argument, but what you know, did this come from a list of BitTorrents or was it acquired legally? And that's going to be the thing that we talk about for the next year before this is all litigated to high heaven. So we'll see about that. U.S. District Judge. This is the second story on this topic. Vince Chabry dismissed a copyright infringement lawsuit from 13 authors.

6:01This is the case that we've heard about a lot with Sarah Silverman and a bunch of other authors. It's been kind of kicking around for the last couple of years. Against Meta overusing their works to train generative models. The judge said the authors, quote, made the wrong arguments and failed to develop a record in support of the right one. However, Judge Chabry made a point of saying the ruling was narrowly applied to these 13 authors who filed this case, and that that does not mean that Metta's use of copyrighted materials was lawful. And that kind of goes counter to a little bit of what we heard earlier this week with Anthropic, where they said, well, yeah, you can use these copyrighted materials.

6:43It just matters where you get them. In this case, the judge criticized that recent anthropic case where Judge Alsup, the judge on that case, cleared the company of some infringement claims because of the transformative nature of training on data from legally acquired books. He wrote here, Alsup focused heavily on the transformative nature of generative AI while brushing aside concerns about the harm that it can inflict on the market for the works that it gets trained on. So this seems to suggest that he would actually rule potentially differently here if this was presented with a better case. So I don't know that this necessarily means, all right, over and done.

7:22Sorry, go home. You know, that's it. It just kind of seems like he's saying, look, the way you framed it is incorrect here. But, you know, if you came back, so you're saying there's a chance. That is a very wide open door there. And so much is going to hinge on the quote unquote transformative, because how transformative is it when you can get it to spit out the book? Yeah. And how deep do you have to go before you get to it spitting out the book? Or what is the length that you're able to get it to spit out? We've got the Google Books case where Google was given however many years the right to scan all of these books.

8:03And part of the reason that they have that right, from my understanding anyways, is because they don't give you large, large, full chapters or whatever. They give you sections of the book, but not the entirety of it. And I wonder how that will play into something like this. I mean, at the end of the day, it's just, there's a lot of murky water here. And this kind of new use case of training AI with these data sets and repurposing and rehashing and transformative nature, like you said, is really something that needs to be defined. And that's what these cases are aiming to do right now is to finally define it.

8:38And as any YouTube creator knows, fair use is an affirmative defense. It is a defense. You have to go through a whole terrifying process to prove your right to use it. No matter how clear your fair use is, this may not end in our lifetime as this goes back and forth. And also it's going to come up, what is the resolution? Is the resolution merely removing this stuff from the models? Is the resolution getting paid every time it comes up? I don't know where this is going. I follow a lot of authors who are obviously following this very closely. And no one's quite curled around to, okay, what do you want the end to be?

9:22Yeah. Yeah. Especially because if what they want the end to be is for these things to go away, I hate to tell you that they're not going away. So then it's okay. Well, then how do we get compensated? I think that if I had to guess, that's where this is headed, is how do we find a system where compensation feels fair? Now, how you define fair probably varies widely, right? In the music industry, you've got Spotify and streaming services compensating, but yet artists still feel like now is is a lot you know like millions of miles you know more difficult to actually build a business around just selling their music online because the fair compensation is so low something tells me that's kind of where we're headed with this too but i guess we'll find out uh and then i i did say that there were a couple of stories there is one more story this was a little different though there's getty images dropping its primary copyright infringement claims against stability ai in the uk uh in this case it's driven less by the merits of copyright law more by challenges over jurisdiction which poses a really interesting new problem getty struggled to establish a direct link between stability's alleged infringing acts training with getty images that's what getty is unhappy with and uk territory because most of the training occurred on us servers so the case now focuses on secondary copyright infringement which basically means whether the import and use of AI models that were trained abroad constitutes infringement in the UK.

10:57In other words, this case has little to do with fair use the way the previous cases do. And yeah, it's a whole other problem to have to sort out. There's just too many problems. That's what it's all about. I think even mainstream audiences have learned in the last couple of years that server location is a thing you may have to pay attention to. there's the UK and of course the EU law is very strong on how data is handled within their territory and with other goings on Canadians have been looking for more Canadian-based cloud providers so there's a a big gap there that companies are trying to step up to fill and build new centers there our laws are semi-similar to the US so there's going to be a lot of shopping for courts.

11:46A lot of overlap. Yeah. And it's just, it's interesting that these, you know, how the news works, right? Because we can go for weeks or months where things are like, I don't know what's going to happen. And then suddenly, boom, boom, boom, boom. Today, I woke up and I looked at the news and saw these three stories and it was just like, okay, apparently we're in the next, you know, the next generation or whatever of this stuff moving through the news and through the courts and everything so we'll see where it all leads yeah court schedules are a thing it's why the epic versus apple thing uh took years and it's still going to be going back and forth for a bit indeed so dtns is made possible by you the listener thanks to miranda janelle that charlie dude justin zellers and welcome to our new patron todd Todd, we are so happy to have you.

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15:24All right, there's more we need to know today. Let's get to the briefs. Creative Commons has launched CC Signals, a new framework that's designed to guide how datasets can be used in AI development, aiming to do for AI what the non-profit did for Creative Works Online. The initiative allows data holders to specify if and how their content can be reused by machines with legal and technical tools that resemble Creative Commons existing licenses. A framework like this can address data extraction practices, and the hope is that it could prevent the internet from becoming more closed off and paywalled.

16:01Public feedback is requested ahead of an alpha launch in November 2025. Yeah, Creative Commons has been pretty successful for the creator economy and the creator industry anyways, I feel. And I know that AI training and everything with AI right now, we need something like this in place because I think their fear is that the fear of people who own sites with information and everything want so desperately to either be compensated for their work or for the whole architecture of all this to be done fairly, that their response will be to paywall to close off and then the internet becomes a lot less open as a result and so maybe this will tend to that in a better way.

16:46I think it's pretty critical that people know what Creative Commons is right now because when it started it was tough. A lot of places didn't recognize the license, a lot of people didn't know. Flickr was very early on letting you tag your works as Creative Commons just so it was like very easy for everyone to see what you were doing, what your license was. I think with that past knowledge, they'll be able to implement this a little cleaner and faster. And I'm excited for November and looking at the feedback. And we'll see if big tech companies actually respect when something says, hey, don't scrape me, bro.

17:23No robots.txt. Right. A bipartisan group of U.S. senators has revived the Open App Markets app. Sorry, act. Let me try that again. And Open App Markets Act, so easy to say that wrong, with a target set on Apple and Google's control over their mobile app stores. The bill seeks to establish clear rules that would prevent tech giants flexing, quote, gatekeeper power in the app economy. It would allow developers to inform users of cheaper pricing, enable side loading of apps, support third party app stores and payment systems. The new bill does include new protections for IP as well as prohibiting punitive action against developers who are enabling remote access to different apps, that sort of stuff.

18:10You can expect that big tech is going to push back big time this second go around. The initial bill actually never made it to the floor for a vote. It ultimately stalled. And we also have kind of the EU's Digital Markets Act happening at a similar time. So, you know, second time's the charm. Yeah, stalled is a very polite way to say crash and burned. There was a full court press from all the corporations and lobbyists to kill it. I think with the appetite from the people to have more control over their devices these days, this one has a better chance. We'll see how it goes and the particular avenues that lobbyists use to attack it this time around.

18:56Indeed. Intel is shutting down its automotive chip making business and laying off most of the division's employees, according to a memo spotted by the Oregonian. Following years of investment in automotive technology and more than 50 million vehicles powered by Intel chips, the company is now planning a major restructuring that shifts focus to Intel's core client and data center portfolio. The closure likely will not affect Mobileye, Intel's self-driving tech subsidiary which continues to operate independently yeah they bought mobile i think back in 2017 so that's i suppose that's good news keeping that going intel is just kind of it's kind of a blind spot in my in my knowledge anytime i look at intel though i feel like the headlines aren't good so i'm like okay another another thing they're walking away from maybe i'm wrong on that view but uh another thing i know very little about just from the perspective that i don't play it is fortnite uh nearly 970 000 fortnite players are set to receive a share of 126 million dollars in refunds starting this week this follows an ftc settlement with epic games over deceptive in-game purchase practices including to unsupervised children the ftc is sending out checks and paypal payments now uh to those who have previously filed valid claims and if you think you're eligible and you haven't filed yet don't worry the ftc has extended the claim deadline to july 9th so you've got a couple of weeks you can just go to the ftc website be sure that you either have your claim number if you have one already or your epic account id ready and you can get a probably a very small piece of that pie let's be honest the ftc site is uh really great and clear and i recommend people reading it even if you don't play fortnite because it's kind of funny.

20:52I want to talk about the three main things that makes you eligible to apply. Okay. Yeah, so these are like any of these statements. You don't have to have and just any. One, if you were charged in-game currency for items you did not want between January 2017 and September 2022. So you got to pay attention to specific dates here. Or your child made charges to your credit card without your knowledge. Just, you know, remember that part between January 2017 and November 2018. So that's a smaller window. And I think this one's going to have tripped a lot more people. Your account was locked between January 2017 and September 2022 after you complained to your credit card company about wrongful charges because any charge back to Fortnite, Epic, Sony will just automatically lock your account.

21:42So you're done. You get nothing. Oh, wow. These things are always so interesting to me because it's like, okay, now I got to go back in time and remember that time of my life and a lot changes over time you know so it's kind of i mean to a certain degree you're you're guessing unless you truly legitimately know yeah well a lot of places will send you emails so you will have some sort of receipt which is how a lot of parents found out that they owed thousands of dollars and then charged it back and then got locked out you know right right they have an and in their in their claim uh and Unfortunately, because this is the FTC, I need to specify this is for Americans only.

22:20Right. That's right. The U.S. Dell has replaced its XPS brand with a new premium line, launching the Dell 14 premium and Dell 16 premium laptops in its wake. The new models remain very similar to the XPS predecessors, with updated Intel Ultra Series 2 processors, NVIDIA RTX 5060 GPUs, and a refreshed Dell logo. The other high-end features include 4K OLED displays, Dolby Atmos audio, and up to 27 hours of battery life. Get ready for the prices now, because prices start at$1 ,649.99 for the 14 premium, and$2 ,699.99 for the 16 premium, which is pushing 4K Canadian. And they are available now, and I will say they're very pretty.

23:10I do actually like the look. I know people are like, oh, those colors are boring. It's like, I don't know. They're sleek. They're nice. And they'll look great with stickers. Dude, you're buying a Dell for a lot of money. Dude. Yeah. It's been a long time since I had a Dell machine. There you go. A lot has happened with Mark Zuckerberg's meta since Aaron Sorkin's film The Social Network was released. God, has it already been 15 years? I guess it has. The least of which being that the company is no longer called Facebook. A sequel is in the works called, you guessed it, The Social Network Part 2.

23:46I feel like they can tighten that up a little bit. Written and directed by Sorkin. It's inspired by the Wall Street Journal's Facebook files, if you remember those a number of years ago. That report focused on the negative impacts of the platform on teens, the spread of misinformation, its role in real-world violence like January 6th Capitol riots and the Rohingya crisis in Myanmar. No word yet on whether or not the original cast will return to their previous roles. Am I looking forward to this? I don't know. I kind of don't know that I need another movie about Facebook. I just assume move on with my life and not watching about Facebook.

24:26I'm one of those people who have turned to happier entertainment. Yes, right. Especially like being in news, like we're so deep in this. But for people like my parents, they, you know, they find this stuff interesting because they feel removed from it. So it's like, oh, we get to see behind the curtain, even if it's semi fictionalized. Yeah, totally. I always, I also always feel, and I definitely felt this with the social network, that isn't it kind of strange to like do a movie about a thing that like literally just happened like i feel like there should be like you know i would never want to stay in the way of anyone's creativity but anytime someone puts out a movie of a thing that happened like a year and a half ago i'm like you know what this would be better if you just waited five years because you get extra context out of that you're too close to the story uh my theory is that since 2020 time has just been steamrolling a lot faster than the entire rest of my life differently now yeah totally Speaking of moving quickly, YouTube is introducing an AI-powered search results carousel for premium users in the U.S.

25:26that resembles its AI overviews feature in search. The carousel will appear in searches related to shopping, places, or activities, and will offer video suggestions and topic descriptions generated by AI to assist in finding relevant content. YouTube also announced that it is bringing its conversational AI tool to non-premium users after it began experimenting with the feature last November. An ask button will appear on a video's watch page, allowing the viewer to ask questions about the video content itself in a chatbot environment within the YouTube app. And oh boy, some of those AI summaries for videos my friends have made have been fascinating.

26:06uh someone made a video about sports gambling which was entirely negative and like all the cons about sports betting and the summary uh did not quite catch the sarcasm in that video and was putting words in their mouth that they didn't say oh yeah right there is no like sarcasm yeah you can't slash s when you're talking Totally, totally. I mean, at the same time, so that sounds horrible and not ideal at all. At the same time, I use YouTube videos a lot for how to do things. And sometimes it would be nice for me because I mean, sometimes I've gone to the trouble of opening up the video where it shows the transcript, copying the transcript, putting that into an LLM and then asking questions about it.

26:53So this would save me a step if it does it right, because sometimes I just want to kind of get to the nugget. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like I watch it a little bit or for me more than just getting to the nugget, it's I have a hard time organizing my brain around something that I just watched a 10 minute video that might have made sense while I was watching it. But now the step by step, like, do I want to go back into the video and pause on every step or whatever? Or do I just kind of get the transcript and query against it and be like, what do I do now? And sometimes that's easier. So maybe this will help in that regard, I guess.

27:24Yeah. I hadn't thought about that particular use case. I do use transcripts a lot and the captions just because I have a hard time understanding certain people, especially if I can't see their mouth, because I need to take apart my air conditioner to clean it so it works better in the heat wave that finally broke. And yeah, I needed to see those steps. I needed the video to make sure that I was handling the wires properly. But yeah, other things that are shorter, first of all, bless all of you people who do tutorials that are four minutes and you just jump right in. You're my favorite people. All of the thumbs up and promotion that I can give you there.

28:01Totally. Totally agree. Those are the essentials for today. Let's dive a little deeper and have a little fun today. Yeah. If I told you scientists taught seals to play video games, and we're not just talking about seal, the music artist, but actual seals, that might be enough just for the one of you who might have thought of that. That might not be enough to satisfy you. I mean, who doesn't want video game playing seals? I know I want to see that. Dr. Nikki can explain why you'd want to do this beyond just entertaining us and the seals. Dr. Nikki, thank you for bringing us one of the funnest science topics I've seen in a while.

28:42I immediately saw this and I wrote you and I said, we're covering this. We have to do it. Yeah. So tell us what's going on here. Yeah. So some scientists at the University of Rostock in Germany got seals to play an ocean simulation video game and an experiment to understand how they navigate underwater. I'll give you a spoiler alert. The video game was not Subnautica, although that's what I'm playing right now. I was going to say it wasn't Grand Theft Wherever Seals Lived. Grand Theft North Sea. Yeah. Grand Theft Underneath the North Sea. Well, first of all, how do you figure out how seals navigate?

29:19Great question. So we know that seals regularly dive up to 500 meters below the surface, and it's very dark and cloudy down there. So scientists were trying to figure out, like, can they see what do they use to orient themselves in this environment? And so they set up this experiment, and they had two seals that were already trained to like press buttons compared to what was on a screen. And basically, it's a big screen with a giant red and red left and red right button. I think it's pretty easy to visualize. And it's just an ocean, like a black screen in the beginning. They also had one SEAL who was not trained.

29:57So they set this as a control. Yeah, like to see if the trained ones had a bias just to press buttons whenever they wanted. Sure, sure. No, that's good to know. I, of course, picture SEAL sitting in a gamer chair in front of an Alienware PC. But I'm guessing the setup looked a little different than that. Yeah. So actually, unfortunately, no, I'd love it if they had VR goggles, but we're not quite there yet. Really, the screen just looks like the old Star Wars, like stars flying towards you kind of screensaver. So it's really just black with white dots moving towards you. And they're just sitting there.

30:36There's a really cool video. If you're able to go find it, they're just sitting there on land and they bump these buttons with their noses. what they're trying to do is figure out if the screen in the screen you're going left or right based on kind of how those dots are moving so if they think they're going right they'll bump the right button and uh just importantly i have to let you know that they do get rewarded with fish um because you know they're they're study participants we have to reward them you have to pay them it's it's the the seal labor union uh would not allow it any of course And so they had three different setups also.

31:12They had these streaming dots at the surface of the water, so towards the top of the screen, in the middle, or at the seabed. And they're calling this a test of optic flow perception, if that makes sense. Okay. This all makes sense in theory, but there's a whole different world when you sit a seal down in front of the displays. Do they even get what the display is? Did you get them trained properly? to do the buttons? How did the seals do? That's a great question. Someone who had to train goats, I'm telling you, the animals don't always quickly pick up on what you're actually trying them to do.

31:49But according to the researchers, the trained seals here learned pretty quickly. And even the naive one who hadn't played video games before, eventually picked up on what it was supposed to do. Oh, really? That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't watching the others either. It was on its own it just figured it out yeah and so even the train ones all of them made a few errors but not a really huge amount but basically they got really competent at telling which direction the screen was kind of leading them towards left or right so they actually were i don't know if they were fooled or if they figured it out but but it it seemed to work the way the ocean would work for them which is pretty impressive uh what did we learn out of this like i know it's fun to imagine but what do we get out of it?

32:34Yeah, so this one is difficult because I think it falls into this realm of basic biology of like, why do we care about this? But we had no idea how they figured this out at all. And what we learned from this is that we know that they use the way in which objects move past their eyes to navigate in the ocean. And that sounds complex, but we didn't know that before. Yeah, so it's not just like, it's easy to say like, well, they look at the ocean and then they move but like what is it in the ocean that they're picking up on now we have a better idea yeah so it could be the seabed or like things floating in the water or even like stars and things in the sky and maybe all of these things combined okay so what do we do next what's what's the next step for these scientists to figure out even more about this yeah so the specifically for the seals the researchers want to figure out if the seals know how far they've traveled based on this kind of optic technique so i think that's going to be the seal odometer experiment yeah so like you know we need to go left for two kilometers and then take a left another left so if they could figure out how they track distance they can figure out a bit more about how they navigate but overall it'll just this has given us already a better understanding of underwater vision in general for animals which is something that's just hard to study because you can't ask them how they see so figuring out how things see is complex and they think maybe in the future this can help with maybe underwater vision applications for devices like cameras or okay who knows or even scuba divers i guess yeah or really cool video games that's yeah definitely some cool video games for us and the seals everybody wins uh dr nikki thank you so much for for bringing this to us i appreciate it uh if folks want to find out more of what you do where should they go uh yeah i can't think of any seal puns but they can they can follow me at NicoleAckermans.com and I have the same handle over on Blue Sky.

34:30Fantastic. Thanks again. Throw me a fish. Throw me a fish on Blue Sky. I like it. Now, what do you want to hear us talk about on the show? One way to let us know is in our subreddit. So please come over and submit stories and vote on them at reddit.com slash r slash daily tech news show. Being a serious business owner takes hard work, patience, and a drive to keep moving forward. So it's important to find a serious business card that goes the extra mile. With the VentureX Business Card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. And with big purchasing power, you can spend more and earn more.

35:10This is your sign to take your business to the next level. The Capital One VentureX Business Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details. Grainger knows if you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Costs climb. Too little? Production slows. Grainger's$2 billion in on-hand inventory helps you get what you need when you need it, so you can help keep budgets balanced and lines moving. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by.

35:45Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

35:54We end every episode of DTNS with some shared wisdom today. Bodhi Grimm is helping us understand. Bodhi writes, Great discussion on briefing and live about Tesla's robo-taxi launch. While Tesla is trying to block federal, state, and local agencies from releasing certain information, Texas does have two great resources to learn about autonomous vehicle companies operating in the state. First, Texas CAV developments dashboard. That's a map where all the autonomous driving companies are operating in Texas. When I say all, it shows everything from delivery robots to autonomous semi trucks. It shows the company name, where in Texas it's operating, the type of service, the status, and some other useful information.

36:38I suggest using the filters at the top of the page to drill down on the info you're interested in, and we will have that link in the show notes, But Brody continues. Yes, yes. A second, he says. The austintexas.gov website has a section for autonomous vehicles operating in Austin. The site provides information on what autonomous vehicles are, links to legislation, documented incidents, FAQs, AV operators in Austin. And Brody names just a couple of things about this. ADMT is in the testing phase. vw is also outfitting the id.buzz for avs they have a european mobility company called moia that will deploy the id.buzz in 2026 he says no idea if the autonomous buzz will come to north america there's av ride in its testing phase motional which is hyundai uh or hyundai is in the mapping phase waymo development phase tesla testing phase and he expects this to change to deployment soon And then Zoox is in the testing phase.

37:43So that's a lot of information. Definitely go to our show notes to find these tools, links to these tools, so you can check it out for yourself. Yeah. Bodhi, thank you for that awesome full segment. I know. That was incredible. It's like bonus. Bonus cuts. Thank you, Bodhi. What are you thinking about? If you have some insight like Bodhi had into a story, share it with us. Feedback at dailytechnewsshow.com. Thanks to Dr. Nikki. Thanks to Bodhi Grimm. Thanks to you, Jen, of course, for contributing to today's show and being here. And thank you for being along for Daily Tech News Show. You can keep us in business by becoming a patron.

38:21That's patreon.com slash DTNS. We'll see you tomorrow.

38:27The DTNS family of podcasts. Helping each other understand. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

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