OpenAI Announces New Structure Along With Microsoft - DTNS 5103

0:00This episode is brought to you by Capital One. Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi-agentic AI. They already deployed one. It's called Chat Concierge and it's simplifying car shopping. Using self-reflection and layered reasoning with live API checks, it doesn't just help buyers find a car they love. It helps schedule a test drive, get pre-approved for financing, and estimate trade in value. Advanced, intuitive, and deployed. That's how they stack. That's technology at Capital One.

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2:31Today, OpenAI solidifies its plan to restructure the company and Microsoft is along for the ride. I'm Jason Howell. I'm Huynh Wendell. We're going to start with what you need to know with the big story. All right. And we do have a little bit of Tom Merrick coming in here because OpenAI and Microsoft have officially reached a deal to let OpenAI restructure, which is something we've been talking about for quite a while. It's kind of been in the pipeline. Why does Microsoft have a say in all this? You may be asking yourself, why does OpenAI want to restructure? Well, Tom Merritt, like I said, he recorded a bit of explanation of the backstory to help us understand.

3:11Huyen Tue Dao: Okay, so OpenAI's corporate structure is a bit confusing if you don't follow it closely. OpenAI itself is two companies. It's a nonprofit organization that was founded in 2015 that in 2019 created a subsidiary known as OpenAI Global LLC, which is a capped profit company. The idea is somewhat similar to how Mozilla is a nonprofit and it has a for-profit subsidiary that operates Firefox and other products. What this does is it lets OpenAI take investments that pay a return instead of just grants and then use that extra money to pay higher salaries and attract more talent. So it has got a for-profit company, but it's capped on profits to reduce the profit motivation.

4:01Huyen Tue Dao: It was kind of a half step from being totally nonprofit where investors would not receive any money back. It would be basically donations to saying, yeah, we will give you some money back, but you can only receive a hundred times your investment, which, you know, that sounds pretty great. But to some investors on a longer timeline, they want unlimited returns on their investment, right? They want dividends forever. So this was a half step to say, well, we'll give you something back for your investment, but we don't want the profit motivation to overwhelm us. That means not everybody who might otherwise want to invest in OpenAI is going to do it.

4:35Huyen Tue Dao: Microsoft took the opportunity and invested more than$13 billion over multiple investment rounds in exchange for getting not only the capped profits, but also preferred access to OpenAI's newest models. So when a new model comes out, Microsoft gets it for an exclusive amount of time or gets unlimited access or something like that. Microsoft also has 49 % ownership in the for-profit LLC. Doesn't own the parent company, but it has a big stake, not a majority stake, but a big stake in the for-profit LLC. Reportedly, there's also a clause in the agreement that would cut off Microsoft's preferred access if OpenAI develops some definition of superintelligence.

5:22Huyen Tue Dao: And it's unclear what that definition would be. A lot of reports were saying OpenAI was going to just declare superintelligence as leverage to get Microsoft to agree to a new deal. Now, while the capped profit structure helped increase investment, OpenAI now needs more cash than that provides if it wants to keep growing. So it would like to restructure to get rid of the cap on profits to investors. That would not only attract a wider number of investors, but it would also make it easier to list public stock, which is another way to attract more investors. The current plan is to restructure the subsidiary to be a public benefit corporation.

6:02Huyen Tue Dao: So this is another half step. No limit on profits for investors, but a public benefit corporation is a type of corporation that has something in its charter that says we are committed to some kind of public benefit as a priority above just profits for shareholders. So if you've ever heard like we have a fiduciary responsibility to returning maximized profits to shareholders, a public benefit company says, no, we don't. That is a priority, but it's not the biggest priority. And it remains to be seen what OpenAI would write into this, but it would probably be something like making sure that superintelligence is safe and all of that sort of thing that is in the charter of the nonprofit that is the owner of the subsidiary now.

6:50Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah. A public benefit corporation is still for profit. It does not cap investor returns. And there are lots of examples of this. This isn't a new thing. Patagonia, Warby Parker, Kickstarter, the King Arthur Baking Company, they make flour. Those are all examples of public benefit companies. To do all that though, OpenAI needs Microsoft, 49 % owner of the subsidiary to agree to restructure its agreement. And that brings us to the news from Thursday. So I hand it back to you, Jason and Huynh. Okay, thank you for handing it back. It's now in my hand and that's the noise that that signifies. So Thursday, which is at the time of this recording yesterday, OpenAI and Microsoft announced that they have signed a non-binding memorandum of understanding for a deal to restructure.

7:41So it sounds like they've got a plan, but there's still a ways to go on this. OpenAI's nonprofit parent company would remain and would have control over the subsidiary as well as more than$100 billion stake in the public benefit company, which itself is estimated to end up being at least 20%, let's say. There are no details on what they agreed on, at least not yet. One can imagine Microsoft gets continued preferred access, super intelligence or not. So I guess maybe that, you know, that clause, I don't know if it disappears or fizzles away. But who knows? I mean, how do you even define super intelligence?

8:23That's a bigger question. And OpenAI gets the freedom to use other cloud providers other than Azure, Microsoft's Azure. So after this deal is finalized, OpenAI is going to need to get regulatory approval and end a court case against the restructuring that was brought by Elon Musk. And we can talk about that a little bit as well. But that's a lot, Wyn. Where do you want to start? What's on your mind given all of this so far? I mean, there's a lot here. And to be honest, I think until listening to Tom's segment, I didn't exactly, and I suppose I'm not alone, did not exactly understand the arrangement that, I mean, just basically the structure that OpenAI had and how Microsoft fit in.

9:13So it's a lot more clear. I guess I, okay, so just an engineer, not a finance person, not an executive. So I suppose that, I don't know, like I feel like, so I guess to put my cards on the table, I am still just dubious about, I guess, any of the current AI companies. and the, I mean, as I understand it, it's just like a lay person, what the idea of the public benefit is and to kind of reduce the incentives of profit. I maybe as just like someone who's worked in the tech industry, just don't really have a lot of faith in the mechanism of such mechanisms at reducing that profit incentive for the greater good.

10:01And so I think my initial reaction just feels, is just a confused... I just, I mean, for me, it just feels like, okay, they need more money for growth. And I question, you know, and certainly that's what they feel they need. Okay. I just don't, I just, this doesn't seem any more public benefiting to me. I mean, it seems like on the face of it, it seems like less, I don't know. I guess I'm very skeptical and I don't know. I would like to, I don't know. It would be nice if AI was being developed more leaning towards public good rather than profit driven. But as a person who's been living in this space, living around this space, not in it, but around it, this just feels like getting just more money for more growth.

10:51And I don't really see how this necessarily, other than just literally kneecapping the money that they get, helps that spending away from profit initiative. I don't know. That's my take. But I'm very skeptical person about. I mean, I don't think that you're alone in being skeptical. There are a lot of people that are skeptical, skeptical about just technology and where it stands in in the climate, you know, in basically just every aspect of life right now. And the people who stand to gain the most from deals like this, people like Altman and Elon Musk and, you know, the billionaires and the someday trillionaires and everything.

11:31It's the scale of everything is so out there that that I think a lot of people might look at a deal like this and you hear public benefit. And it kind of seems like the the the want of a deal like this is to say, see, we're not just doing it for profit. We're doing it for the good of humanity and all these things. But there are so many other things in the world of technology, especially now, that seem to kind of go counter to that kind of altruism sort of declaration, let's say. It's convenient to say we're altruistic about our efforts and then also be making billions upon billions of dollars off the technology and the moves that we make.

12:15So how can those things, why are those things often at odds? And that's where the skepticism, I think, comes from. Then you've got someone else who's pretty skeptical, and that's Elon Musk, right? Musk has his court case that I mentioned just briefly a little bit ago that really has driven a large part of this, right? Musk named Microsoft in his lawsuit specifically stating that the OpenAI-Microsoft partnership is stifling competition. The deal's been scrutinized. Courts, regulators taking a look at this. And it really remains to be seen if these new terms actually will end up clearing a path for the reorganization that OpenAI is talking about.

13:01If it actually satisfies the courts and regulators or if Musk's antitrust claims will impact or maybe even derail this deal. Because, you know, I think to this end, this still needs to be accepted or it still needs to be cleared. And we've got their plan for a restructure. Does it satisfy all the other, you know, aspects of this kind of messy situation that these companies are, find themselves in? And that still remains to be seen. My bad. Remind me, was open, Elon Musk, I mean, it's been so many years and there's been so much like kind of back and forth. Of course, Elon Musk owns many companies.

13:42It's kind of hard to keep track. He was, he was, he was intramental in the founding of OpenAI. Is that correct? That's my memory. Very, very early on. Very early on. said, you know, and it's hard, it's really hard to say exactly what his motivation and intention is because he said that very early on, you know, the company that he invested in was making promises about its business staying in, in its kind of, you know, the, the, the example that they're talking about now, you know, really being a public benefit thing, not, not being devised or created to make one person rich. Meanwhile, this is coming from Elon Musk, who has a completely separate life that is absolutely related to what he's kind of wagging his fingers at OpenAI for.

14:31So it's really kind of confusing to see that coming from a person like Musk in this situation. But yeah, early on, he was pretty instrumental to it, or at least working there from almost the beginning with Altman? You know, I, I, um, it's so funny because I think as a technologist, I do really love my job. Like in general, I love technology. I love my job. I love the promise of technology. And I think if I, if I look back, I think, I think to give people credit, a lot of people have like a great idea and maybe a great technical idea that they would like to bring to life to help out society. And certainly the way that kind of our kind of socioeconomic world works investment.

15:13Like, I think, I think so many times like, man, if someone gave, someone gave like this medical research company, like X billion dollars, like wouldn't the world be better? Yeah. Like, and, and, and so like, I, so I can see that that wish is the attempt of some of these more complex structures, which I don't really understand seems to be to fulfill those kinds of wishes. Yeah. Like, okay, you need money. Unfortunately in this world, people kind of like to get money back, invest money, but with some profit back. So that's fair. So given that is the world we live in, this feels like in the face of it, a very practical tool.

15:49But it's so funny because I think, you know, like Patagonia, like I love Patagonia. King Arthur Baking Company. Yes, I have your things. It's so interesting though, because the world, the sphere that OpenAI operates in feels like the most competitive and the most, hey, grab your attention and figure it, like the most like rapidly monetizing, the most like intensely competitive sphere. And that almost seems to run, and I know again, competition is good. Like I know like our almost like the base precept is that competition breeds more innovation and more opportunity. But at the same time, because open AI, even if you say like that their beating heart is still for public benefit.

16:35They're operating in a space with like everybody else, like with everyone else. Massive amounts of money. Yeah, massive amounts of money. And other companies that, as I understand it, do not have this, you know, anti-fiduciary responsibility, public, but more of a public benefit bent. And so I can't help but feel like you're playing in the wrong pool or that, I don't know, just something like that. So I think it's interesting. and I don't know I'm curious whether even if they do manage to get this restructure through like I guess what moves they'll make to continue to be for the public benefit or whether we can just all be skeptics and be like eh no it's all the same I think probably people who are really skeptical will continue being skeptical which is just a sign of the times it's a sign of the times that's a song okay it is now It is now.

17:31All right. Well, I guess we'll see how it shakes out. But we want to take some time because we want to recognize that DTNS is made possible by you, the listener. And we want to thank people that make DNS possible, like Jim Hart, Mike Akins, Norm Fazekas. And we want to welcome new patrons, Joe, Mirrors of Time and Kenton. And we want to thank David for a raise. Thanks for the raise. Thank you.

18:24Huyen Tue Dao: We'll be right back. Start now at Paylocity.com slash one. This episode is brought to you by Capital One. Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi-agentic AI. They already deployed one. It's called Chat Concierge and it's simplifying car shopping. Using self-reflection and layered reasoning with live API checks, it doesn't just help buyers find a car they love. It helps schedule a test drive, get pre-approved for financing, and estimate trade-in value. Advanced, intuitive, and deployed. That's how they stack. That's technology at Capital One. Hey guys, it's Drew Afualo from the comment section.

19:00Huyen Tue Dao: Listen, it's time to stop settling for hair products that just don't work, baby. With all the prestige brands at Sephora, upgrading your routine is easy. If your hair needs repair, they've got the K18 Leave-In Molecular Repair Hair Mask. If you're trying to level up your wash day, the Kerastase Elixir All-Time Hair Oil leaves your hair looking ridiculously shiny without feeling heavy. Also, Sephora makes it super convenient with free shipping and same-day delivery. Shop hair at Sephora and give your hair the upgrade it's been waiting for. Your team just added its 67th AI tool and also your 67th security blind spot.

19:36Huyen Tue Dao: The good news? The Vanta agent works like a GRC engineer in the background, finding every app your team uses, scoring the risk, and drafting fixes for you. Vanta is the platform used by over 16 ,000 fast-moving companies like Ramp, Cursor, and Harvey, who are shaping the future with AI and staying ahead of AI risk. Get started at Vanta.com. There's a reason millions of people start their day with Morning Brew Daily. Each morning, we break down the biggest news in business from the latest tech headlines to why nobody can afford a house right now. All in a format that fits seamlessly into your day.

20:11Huyen Tue Dao: You'll leave each episode of Morning Brew Daily smarter and ready to take on the world around you. I'm Toby Howell. And I'm Neil Freiman. And we're ready to show you that business news doesn't have to be boring. So join us on Morning Brew Daily, available wherever you get your podcasts. All right, there's more we need to know today. Let's get to the briefs. All right, well, let's round up a few Apple stories related to the hardware announcements from earlier this week. Apple has pushed back the launch of the iPhone Air in China as government approval is sought for the embedded SIM in the device.

20:44China's three major carriers have all announced eSIM support, but regulatory approval is still needed before the phone can be sold in the country. All other iPhone 17s will be sold in the country with no delay. Apple's new hypertension notification feature, announced with the Apple Watch Series 11 and Ultra 3, just received FDA clearance in the U.S. This paves the way for its official launch next week in over 150 countries and regions worldwide. And finally, if you were wondering why Apple's polishing cloth didn't list the iPhone 17 series in its compatibility box on the Apple product page, worry no more.

21:23The fabric cloth is now fully compatible. So did they like roll out like an OTA to the cloth? An OTA to the cloth. Yes, exactly. Firmware update, software update, clothware update. Clothware. I mean, it's just a cloth. it's a very small cloth but if you really wanted to and you were cold at night you could use it as a blanket it's compatible with your bed it's compatible with everything so at least there's that uh and hypertension uh you had to know you know it was probably going to clear uh sooner rather than later so i guess it's just good news that it's cleared that's not delaying the release of the watch here in the U.S.

22:04And then I think eSIM only, boo. Although with the Air, maybe that makes sense because it's such a thin device, you know? Maybe that's the trade-off. We ain't got no room for things like, you know, such chunky things as SIM cards, please. Ports that you have to slide out and in, like that would add 0.02 millimeters to the design and we can't have that. Such a waste of space. Well, we were talking a little bit about Microsoft a few minutes ago. Microsoft, in unrelated news, avoided an EU fine by agreeing to fully separate its Teams app from Office 365 packages released the next seven years. Now, this resolves a European antitrust investigation that stems all the way back to 2020.

22:48It was a complaint from Slack about anti-competitive bundling in the business collaboration software markets. They were saying you're bundling these things. It's unfair to competition apps like ours. Microsoft worked closely with the EU to negotiate these changes, like the unbundling of teams, also improving interoperability. And ultimately, this has satisfied regulators and at the end of the day allowed Microsoft to avoid formal penalties. I feel like we don't really see this that often. The EU maintains its authority to impose fines if needed, but also stated that this decision can serve as an example of resolving issues through negotiation instead of through penalties.

23:36So, yeah, a little different. Don't normally see it work out that way. I feel like there's a joke in here. And yes, I totally am for these kinds of cases and questioning these kind of like, you know, my business practices. There's a joke in here about is teams, is bundling teams inside of Office 365 really end competitive or is it a self-own? I don't know, but yes. Okay. Anyway, well, Mastodon is launching quote posts next week, letting users add comments to other posters posts using a new quote option that's accessible with the repost button. So Mastodon had originally chosen not to offer this feature due to concerns around harassment, but has used feedback from users to change its course.

24:23Users can control who may quote them and can also disable quoting by post or remove their own content from someone else's quote. The new feature will appear within the user preference setting in the 4.5 update. Yeah. Yeah. Mastodon showing an example of giving the user the ability and control on a pretty granular level as far as that's concerned. So I think that's good news. People want the feature. If the feature can be used for not so savory things, at least give people the ability to control it in a way that enables them to have control of it. Yeah. 100 % approved. Yeah, totally. Absolutely.

25:07Albania has appointed an AI-powered bot named Deila. They referred to the bot as a she, by the way, but I will not do that here because it's a robot. I'm sorry. As its new minister for public procurement, the goal of enlisting an AI bot for the role is to eliminate corruption from government contracts. Now, Prime Minister Eddie Rama said the bot is impervious to bribes and to intimidation, and it'll help make Albania, quote, a country where public tenders are 100 % free of corruption, end quote. This is not Deila's, I really got to figure out how to pronounce the bot's name, Deila's first task in the government.

25:54They had launched earlier this year, Deila, an earlier version of Deila as a virtual assistant on the state platform that was involved with helping citizens access official documents. So the way this news was reported on kind of makes it seem like it's an official, you know, like it's an official title, but it's a chat bot. I don't know, yeah, it's very strange. Okay, so it's more of like giving, I don't know, like being in a sweet way, giving like a kid like a badge, like man's birthday kind of thing. You wear this badge, pin it on your chest. There you go. Yeah, but it's... Della is just a chatbot.

26:40Yeah, pretty much. I also feel like it's very dangerous to... Because AI chatbots are not, at this point, sentient beings with feelings and motivations, I feel it's very hazardous to say that it is... It cannot be bribed or intimidated and that it's corruption-free. I do say that I do believe that because these are still processes that actually do have some sense I mean and then maybe not I don't know I mean this is not fair because maybe a little unfair because I don't know what deal is the chatbots like underlying technology is but even chatbots have a sense of like you know trying to maximize their efficiency there's there like famously of course like the open AI chat GPT is trying to please its users so just to say that even if the bot is not sentient enough to be bribed, there are ways to manipulate a piece of software.

27:33So I just want to, I feel like it's... At the end of the day, these are created by humans. Yes. Yes. And I think sometimes that gets lost in the discussion. It's like, oh, the bot has a mind of its own. No, it doesn't. No. Everything that is in there was either trained from data that a human chose to put in there. Like the human involvement is 100 % of the thing. If this was created by a robot that was created by a robot that was created by a robot that had nothing to do, you know what I mean? Then maybe you'd get to a point to where you could say that human corruption takes no place. And I'm not saying that it is corrupt.

28:13I'm just saying, I totally agree with you. Making the statement and saying it's completely impervious is pretty silly. Like, no, you might believe that. And that might, you know, be the plan, but, you know, there's still a lot of human involvement on these things and that can lead to a whole lot of unintentional things that you don't want. Yeah. I just wonder if even though there's not sent it, you could still social engineer a bot. I feel like that. I wonder if that's true. So someone who knows better than me, tell me. Yeah. Okay. Well, Sony launched the Xperia 10. Is it V? Did we say 7 or V1?

28:47I was trying to figure that one out. VII. Xperia 10 VII or Xperia 10 7. I don't know. Okay. I'm going to say the Roman numerals out loud, and if that's very silly, I apologize. But Sony launched the Xperia 10 VII, a mid-range Android smartphone with a camera bar design that's somewhat reminiscent of the Google Pixel and the latest iPhone 17s. It's a stark change from the previous Xperia phones that had the camera offset to one side. It features a fancy turquoise color option along with the usual white and black alternatives, some chunky and asymmetrical bezels, and a boxier 19.5 by 9 aspect ratio and a side-mounted camera shutter button.

29:33Otherwise, a pretty standard mid-range device on sale September 19th in the UK and Europe for around€449,€399 British pound sterling. So Pixel has had a thing going with their camera bar thing for a while. And now it's starting to crop up in more devices. And in this case, kind of like the long pill-shaped camera bar, similar, very similar, although a lot narrower, if you see the pictures of it, to Pixel. It's pretty attractive because the bar blends into the color in the back. So it's definitely distinctive. It's pretty cute, I think. Yeah, but those bezels on the front. I don't mind thick bezels.

30:14I'm okay with thick bezels. Just make them symmetrical. When they're asymmetrical, unless there's a function. And there might actually be a speaker embedded in the bezel, but still, it never looks good to my eyes when they're asymmetrical. Amen. Yeah. So, yeah. Finally, a teaser of the upcoming sequel to the Super Mario Brothers movie was shown during Nintendo Direct, officially titled Super Mario Galaxy Movie. It is set to debut in theaters April 3rd, 2026 next year. The film's original cast, of course, returning for the follow up. And you better believe they will because the first movie was the top or at least one of the top animated films ever made.

30:57One point three six billion dollars grossed to date. So, yeah, probably going to do OK on that one. And Mario Galaxy is a strong like sub franchise of the Mario world. So there you go. All right. Well, do you need a snizy gift for a coworker or colleague? We have dozens of ideas at dailytechnewsshow.com slash store. Get a mug, a t-shirt, a mouse pad, all with our new DTNS logo. They're great gifts and a great way to support the show.

31:34This episode is brought to you by Capital One. Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi-agentic AI. They already deployed one. It's called Chat Concierge and it's simplifying car shopping. Using self-reflection and layered reasoning with live API checks, it doesn't just help buyers find a car they love. It helps schedule a test drive, get pre-approved for financing, and estimate trade-in value. Advanced, intuitive, and deployed. That's how they stack. That's technology at Capital One. Morning Brew Daily breaks down the biggest news in business every morning

32:07Huyen Tue Dao: so it fits seamlessly in your day. I'm Toby Howell. And I'm Neil Freiman. And each morning we cover everything from the latest tech headlines to why nobody can afford a house right now. You'll leave each episode of Morning Brew Daily smarter and ready to take on the world around you. And some people are saying it's the best part of their morning. Because we know something you don't. Business news doesn't have to be boring. Join millions of monthly listeners and check out Morning Brew Daily wherever you get your podcasts.

32:38We end every episode of DTNS with some shared wisdom. Anon Jr. posted on our Patreon about the news that Microsoft will no longer charge a fee for listing in the Microsoft Store, but instead just verifying ID. Yeah, Anon Jr. writes, no fee is nice in one sense, as that's one less barrier to entry for real developers. Not so nice as that's one less barrier to entry for junk trying to grab a buck from the unaware or inattentive. The trick seems to be in finding the right sort of barriers to junk that doesn't keep out genuine developers. Likewise, the cut or vig, depending on your perspective, for handling transactions certainly feels onerous for the devs, but the servers and bandwidth for the app store still cost money.

33:22Should the stores be a loss leader or should there be some remuneration for providing a place that makes finding a given app easier and updating said app earlier or sorry said app easier so yeah um thanks because we covered yesterday how um tom and i covered yesterday some of the microsoft um app store changes with you know eliminating the registration fee in return for just verifying id and that they would be covering i believe signing and hosting costs so yeah i feel like we keep hovering around this subject jason well yeah totally that was going to be my kind of follow up for you because I you know obviously I wasn't there for the discussion yesterday so maybe you maybe you kind of touched on it but didn't Google announce kind of the opposite that like they're now going to be charging fees for this yeah or yeah there's not for everybody or at least the ID verification and things and I think I've brought up not necessarily personally but that also so to contrast this yet again like for example for the iOS or the app store the Apple version, you have to just register$99 for a developer.

34:29And I think it's larger even for small businesses. So no, I mean, that's a really good point, Anand Jr. And that's really fair, that things cost money and that there's a fair argument there that given that Microsoft is giving you this platform and maintaining this platform that a cut might seem onerous, but it also just might be just helping them pay the bills. Um, and yeah, like I don't, it's, I have mixed feelings because yes, for sure. Um, this is, this is just the same tug of war that we have, um, you know, as Android people, um, is that because the platform was so open and free in many ways for such a long time that attracted a lot of people that wanted to tinker and that wanted to be, you know, had that techie entrepreneurial spirit and wanted to like, you know, create different ideas for different reasons.

35:25Um, but that, yeah, it, it, it, um, opens the way for a lot of bad actors, people that just want to make a buck, people that want to just, you know, um, blow the apps, blow any store with malware. Um, so I don't know. I don't actually, I think my, what I'm trying to say is like, I don't think there's a good answer because it seems like every app store when they try to make a move for the betterment of either their customers or their selves they peeve somebody off or they open a door that's hard to close they're dealing with a lot a lot a lot of people and a lot of you know what i mean like i don't know how many apps are in the the play store for example but i'm i'm you know is it is it it's definitely millions is it close to billion i honestly don't know it probably not close to billions, but we're talking about a lot of people, a lot of developers who are directly impacted.

36:15So you are going to have a mixture of perspectives on this. And I don't think there is such a thing as making everybody happy, but hopefully you justify why you're doing what you're doing. I think at the end of the day, that's needed. Well, what are you thinking about? If you've got insight into this story or others that we've talked about or haven't talked about, You can share it with us, feedback at dailytechnewsshow.com. Thanks again to Anon Jr. for contributing to today's show. Thank you, of course, to Tom for coming in a little bit earlier. Thank you for being along for Daily Tech News Show.

36:50You can keep us in business by becoming a patron at patreon.com slash DTNS.

37:00Huyen Tue Dao: This week's episodes of Daily Tech News Show were created by the following people. host producer and writer Tom Merritt, host and writer Jason Howell, co-host Sarah Lane, co-host Rob Dunwood, co-host Wensway Dow, producer Anthony Lemos, producer Roger Chang, editor Hammond Chamberlain, editor Victor Bognat, science correspondent Dr. Nikki Ackermans, social media producer and moderator Zoe Detterding, our mods, Beatmaster, WS Goddess One, BioCow, Captain Kipper, Steve Gautorama, Paul Reese, Matthew J. Stevens, aka Gadget Virtuoso, and J.D. Galloway. Mod and video hosting by Dan Christensen. Music provided by Martin Bell and Dan Luters.

37:38Huyen Tue Dao: Art by Len Peralta. Acast ad support from Tatiana Matias. Patreon support from Bobby Wagner. Our guest this week was Andy Beach. And thanks to all our patrons who make the show possible.

37:54Huyen Tue Dao: The DTNS family of podcasts. Helping each other understand. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

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