Tech Authors Use - DTNS WEEKEND

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3:20Welcome to the Daily Tech News Show Weekend Edition, greatly provided to you and thanks for your support of this show. And this week, I'm very happy to welcome three great authors to talk about the tech or in some cases, maybe the lack of tech that we use to do our writing. Joining me is Mallory O'Mara. Hello. Philip Fricasse. Hey, thanks for having me, Tom. And JF Dubow, welcome back. Bonjour. Sure. This is something that JF and I kind of hatched when we were talking previously on other shows we've done and panels we've done to just kind of go through some of the tech we use, because I think a lot of people are very interested in what other professions and other avocations use technology for, or they may be surprised at when a technology solution isn't actually beneficial, you know, and maybe there's some other way of doing it.

4:15So we're going to talk about the writing of stuff, what technology we use for that, the submissions of things, and even a little bit about the editing and the publishing at the very end. Let's start with that, though. Researching, writing your first draft, getting your book down on paper. JF, we'll start with you so you can break the ice. What are some of the technologies that you use for that part of your process, which I think when people think about writers, that's the part they think about the most. Well, it's odd because when I start with the planning stage, I do a mix of doing a lot of book reading and I tend to do a lot of my planning on notebooks mostly just because it's more free form and I can just put one idea on a page, flip another page, turn another idea.

5:03If I need to graph something out, I don't need to branch into a different piece of software or anything like that. So I try to get the biggest, the roughest portion out on paper and do all my research. Like I'll do like the whole Wikipedia thing to find references to. But then I like to dig into like where the sources come from, find the books and find the articles for that and get those in as physical form as I can. Just so I can sit down, read, either on public transport and highlight whatever I need to highlight. Yeah, worry about connectivity or batteries. Yeah, or just having – I mean, the thing is the moment you start being mobile or you try to do things in cafes or in public transport, you don't have two screens.

5:52You don't have all the big master setup nexus thing that you would normally have at home. so being able to switch from different software and different apps is a little more annoying so i'd rather do uh do things in a more more tactile way then i start doing the actual like writing the actual first manuscript and it's all on on storyist on storyist okay uh yeah it's scrivener for poor people i guess scrivener for smart frugal people maybe that's another one Mallory, what about you? Because I know you do a lot of stuff longhand as well. Yeah, I do all my research longhand. My entire first draft is longhand.

6:34I'm about as low tech as you can get when it comes to writing. But I agree with JF that I think something that writers really struggle with is distractions, especially when you're on your computer and you have access to the entirety of the world on there. When I'm writing longhand, it's just me and a piece of paper. And you can't, like you said, you can't lose battery, it can't power down, it can't show me ads. But also, so I mainly am a nonfiction writer, I do have my first novel coming out next year. But I, most of my books are history books. And there's something about writing everything down that I feel like it sticks in my brain better.

7:13Like even now, if you my first book came out in 2019. If you ask me questions about it, I can pull stuff. And I just feel like that connection with memory is part of writing it down longhand. And I like what I do is I do all my research longhand, I do my first draft longhand, and then I transcribe it into Google Docs. And that typing out is my first edit pass. That was that was not a great sentence. Let's fix that up in that way. And it makes me remember it even better. And it's just my first sort of pass into fixing it structurally, fixing everything. And it is definitely not the most efficient.

7:50Most of my books end up being 10 to 20 notebooks long, but it just works for my brain. Seven books in, it's my process. I need a lot of paper. And the other thing is I use fountain pens, which is very... I don't know if listeners could see behind me all these shelves. These are bottles of... Yeah, yeah. I basically work inside a home apothecary. I do, I have a ton of pens. I have very big opinions about nibs and types of paper. But for me, having like a specialized tool as a writer, I feel like for a lot of us, our tools are what we use for everything, is keyboard and phone and computer. And having like a specialized tool makes me, I don't know, there's something fun about it.

8:35And that can trick me into writing because I might not feel like writing one day, but I'm like, ooh, but I have a cool new shiny ink that I want to play with. What better way than take a page is out for my book? So I am very much on the low-tech side. About as high-tech as I get, it's Google Docs. Yeah, on the edit pass. That's kind of genius, actually, taking the longhand and then editing it as you're putting it into Google Docs. Google Docs is a choice. Yeah, we'll get to that. You're talking about writing for poor people. Google Docs is... The Google Docs is for the people. Yeah. It's masochism.

9:15But anyways. Well, I can't imagine, JF, that you can imagine yourself using a fountain pen on public transportation either. No, this is the thing. I don't want to take too much time because I want to hear Phil's answer. But the thing is my methods are I also keep them very mutable because I never know what circumstances I'm going to be in when I do get opportunities to write. so I very much qualify myself as kind of a guerrilla writer at least for first drafts where I just like to be able to of course that man up in a tree it's J.M. writing it's draft exactly like spelling is important on that one yeah I try to find a sniper position first no I I like to be able to write like whenever I'm out like hanging out with people and then I don't want to hang out with them anymore I find a corner and I work on things which happens a shocking amount of times.

10:11Yeah. So, Philip, thank you for being patient. What kind of technology or non-technology do you use? So, for me, I'm pretty tech heavy. I don't do a lot of written by hand, pros especially. um i i do i do a lot of i'm i'm incredibly disorganized when it comes to my ideas so i i do a lot of like you'll see a lot of this kind of stuff where it's just me making notes to myself i'll find post-its all over the office um where i really had made a note to myself about an idea um but whenever i'm um if i'm researching so i have written i have written a few historical novels i've never written non-fiction like mallory so it's a little bit different but um I have read some historical fiction and so it's pretty research heavy, but yeah, I'm pretty reliant on technology.

11:10I always, I always crank out all my ideas, even if they're just like a sentence or a paragraph. A lot of times I'll email myself. If I'm not like, like Jeff was saying, if I'm not home or if I'm traveling, I'll, I'll email myself notes or thoughts or ideas. And so that I have everything saved digitally. um and then when i get home at my computer again i'll i'll transport those notes and do a little bit more of a fleshed out document and i'll save it under a certain so i have like a my desktop and thank christ my cloud um i have everything back that you know i probably have like a thousand little folders with different ideas different you know um sentences or just whimsical thoughts that i think i can like apply to something down the road so that's how i kind of idea generate i do it is pretty much almost purely digital.

12:02And then same with research. So if I'm researching the Civil War, if I'm researching a battle, if I'm researching, you know, the flora and fauna of a certain geography, geographical location and period of time, again, I'll punch all that stuff into a Word document. So I'm incredibly Word heavy when it comes to note-taking, summaries, you know. So my first draft typically was a short story or a novel, and I say my first draft, the first iteration of that story, for reasons I cannot explain, I will sit down at a Word document. I'll look at maybe my Post-its or whatever other things I've emailed myself.

12:49And I will go in all caps, and I've done this for over a decade or if not longer. and I will just like vomit out a story in all caps, you know, in one page or two pages, whatever it takes. And like this happens, this happens, this happens, this happens, this happens, this happens, this happens. And then, you know, and I'll get as much of it down as I can so I don't forget it. And that's usually like the beginning of what I built from. We can get into more like after that initial thought process, that thought dump, if you will, I can get more into the technology. I do some different software and stuff for that.

13:23But yeah, all my initial research, all my initial notes, everything's digital. Or it's on a scrap of paper on the back of an envelope that I've lost. So we're in the kitchen underneath my cats. Yeah, yeah. So I think it's interesting to see all the different ways that the story creation comes to bear. For me, it's usually thinking of the story a lot just in my head and then putting it into a Google Doc so that I can access it anywhere. And connectivity is good enough these days that most of the time I can get to it. And I'm also backed up in the cloud and everything like that. Let me just say one thing, Tom, because one of the things that you mentioned is like, yeah, obviously you do a lot of that thought process in your head.

14:07And that's one of the reasons I do the email thing, because I don't want to because I will forget. I know myself well enough to know I'll have a cool idea. And I know by the time – because I'm such a ditz that I know by the time I – 20 minutes later. I mean I'm one of the guys who walks into the kitchen for something and then stands there looking around, not remembering why he was there. So that's why I do that because I know I'll forget and I'm paranoid about forgetting those little ideas. So I'll just like shut off like a one-line email like, oh, don't – or just to remind myself, oh, yeah, that's right.

14:38I was going to do this. But yeah, that's one of the reasons I do that. It's kind of like because I can't retain information apparently. All right. So I want to cut in on Tom too. This is one of the reasons I like Storius because there's a version of it for your phone. And it connects to the same documents that you have backed up in whatever cloud format you want. So if ever I have an idea standing in line for coffee somewhere, I can just pop open whatever I'm working on, go into proper place, and just type it in directly there. That's cool. oh and then storyist is also acting as an organizer for for you as you do the polish um a little bit but usually by the time i get to the polish with the editor then like when i do my myself my own polish yeah i just duplicate whatever file i'm working on and i'll work on that um but whenever it gets to the editor part then i just export in whatever format they enjoy and work from there and so what do you what do you think if you had to describe why you use Storyist?

15:38What is the big advantage for you versus just having Word docs or something like that? It allows me to have different types of files. There's different types of files for character descriptions, scene descriptions, and things like that. The novel file itself is easy to break apart. There's also a way for every scene in the background of every scene that you write, there's a hidden index card that you can access to put notes so there's all of that together plus the connectivity that allows me to just have everything backed up to the cloud because i've destroyed my computer with drinks and things so many times i cannot be trusted with electronics um it allows me to have that backup and also access that backup from my ipad from my laptop from wherever I've got a copy of Storiest installed and synced up.

16:33So to me, it's kind of my protective headgear to prevent myself from getting concussions. Your pads, your helmet. Yeah. It protects me against myself. So Mallory, when you go into Google Docs with the edit, then where do you take it from there? Does it stay in Google Docs all the way to submission or do you go somewhere else with it? Yeah, it usually stays in Google Docs. I will send a version to my agent and my editor and they'll, they'll send me edits back in that Google doc. And the thing, the funny thing is when I have my meeting with my editor, I take all my notes longhand. So I'm, I'm taking her notes that she wrote and then putting them in a notebook.

17:13Cause there's something about, I just like having a hard copy of things. And when I'm working on my own notes on her notes and like sort of going through and figuring out how I'm going to, to incorporate those into this draft, I like being able to look at them on a piece of paper. And because I use so many different pens, I'm sort of automatically color-coded. Like I am using a lot of different types of ink. And it's really nice to be like, okay, well, all these edits are in purple. Right away, my brain's like, all right, all these notes are purple. These are the things that I need to go in here.

17:45And all my research on this page is in green. And being able to have a bunch of different notebooks and a bunch of different inks might sound like a nightmare to a lot of other people. But I always look like that scene from Lord of the Rings from Fellowship where Gandalf is doing research on the ring and he's got a thousand different manuscripts around him. That's what I look like while I am working. I just like it. I like being able to look at a bunch of different things at once instead of having multiple monitors. and there's just something about it that I don't know if it makes me feel like a detective or I just I like having decoy notebooks out for my cat to sit on so she doesn't bother me that's very smart you need decoy keyboard that's what I need right right now we need a decoy laptop because my cat's been rubbing herself against the screen all this time yeah there's just something about it for my brain and even so what's funny is I will take those digital notes turn them into longhand notes and then turn them back into a digital draft.

18:46But I just, I always, for me, I always need that hard copy step, even in the editing process, before it gets back to my, before the new version of a Google Doc gets back to my editor. Mallory, did you find yourself that, did you find any difference between when you were working on something fiction versus your non-fiction? Did you find that you were doing things differently at all or not particularly well but i think the the the catch here is that the novel that i have coming out next year is a historical horror novel so a lot of research yeah very very research heavy a lot of different notebooks and i like being able to have all of those out at the same time because even if i had multiple monitors it's not feasible to have you know five six seven six things out at once whereas for me having five six seven notebooks or pages out all at once and there's nothing, there's no glare, there's no emails.

19:43I think a key thing for me is that I am one of those people that I don't get, my inbox does not build up. If I get an email, I have to answer it right away. My podcast partner, Bria Grant, who I've been doing reading glasses with for 10 years, says that if I don't answer an email within an hour, she just assumes that I'm dead. So I am someone who's very susceptible to digital distractions. So doing everything longhand helps me focus. It helps me conceptualize everything that I'm doing. I will take that extra sort of pain in the butt step to bring something longhand before it goes back to digital.

20:17And it just helps my brain. Yeah, it sounds like it's somewhat of a defense mechanism about being so connected. Yes, it really is. And also, I just love shiny ink. Yeah, and you get that as a bonus on top of it. I get that, but I get to indulge my art products in different ways. I don't. I am the least artistically inclined person. And this is also why I am the opposite of you, Jeff. I do not write outside the home. I don't write at coffee shops. I'm not writing in trees. I'm not writing at parties. I'm not writing on the subway. I require a lot of material. So I'm always home at my desk. Yeah.

20:57Well, Jeff, you're an artist as well. So you, yeah, don't give me that hand. Yeah. So you get some art on the side. So yeah, I do. I do get like my, my playing with art supply kicks somewhere else. But yeah, unfortunately, like having a full time job, like I can't, I have to be able to write anywhere. That's whenever I can squeeze in time, I have to do it because otherwise I'd never get anything done. And Philip, you mentioned earlier that there's another part of your process as well towards the end, more towards the submission side. Tell us a little more about that. I mean, yeah, really, really.

21:36So my the way I work is once I have once I have let's just assume that we're talking about a novel. So once I have the I'll write a rough outline, like I mentioned, that all caps document, which I will print out and I will take notes on. So like this is an example of like, you see where I kind of do my notes. And so I just kind of like we're all like continue to make notes on that. So I do need the physical copies to like Mallory. I just put their digital physical copies. but um you're printed out or whatever but so yeah then i um i use so my next step is i i use scrivener so i outline almost all my made all my bigger story all my novels um are almost always outlined i'm a big outliner um i'm also a screenwriter so i use that for screenwriting as well so i will um i will outline everything in scrivener for similar reasons that um jf mentioned is I do like I can throw different files in there I can throw images I can throw web links um and then I can kind of beat out all my um like chapter by chapter like I can sectionalize the story I can create the chapters I know I can make notes on each chapter um of what information I want to have happening there and I can go if I have come up with an idea in the middle of the night when I'm thinking of the story I can go and like write into that particular chapter with the idea so scripter is my big outliner once i have this once i have the novel outlined i write it in in word so everything goes into a word document um it's just my preferred way to write i don't i'm not a fan of google docs i my wife tries to get me to use i just for some reason i have a brain disconnect with it but um but i know i know a majority of people are a lot of people are them more and more, but I'm a word guy.

23:22And, um, and, uh, yeah. And then, and then that's, and that's how I go back and forth with my editors is, um, is once that initial draft is finished, um, I usually will do at least another draft, if not two more drafts. And then that is what will go to my editor. And then I will start working on the revisions back. We'll just go back and forth on, on word docs. And then submissions wise, it feels like everything's just by email. Does anybody have a different experience than that as far as dealing with publishers? No, everything with my agent and my editor. Episode prep gets messy when research Slack threads and script trackers are all in different places.

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27:55Google Docs for edits with in-shares. And then you call the police on them? No. Okay, so my issue with Google Docs isn't... I know you've been waiting for this. No, actually, I think I've told Tom and the problem I have with Google Docs is just that when the file gets really big, it slows down to an absolutely unusable pace. How long are your novels? Not that long. I don't know what it is. Maybe it's a Mac thing. I have no idea. Yeah, I've never had an issue with the – I also – like my books are very rarely over 100 ,000 words, but I've never had a problem. Yeah, I don't think I've had a book under 100 ,000 words except the latest one, which is about 80.

28:44Did that one slow down in Google Docs? Not as much. To be fair. For those of us who are writers with brevity. Yeah, I should flirt with brevity a bit more. There you go. Next book, flirting with brevity. I'm sure my publisher would be happy if I did. Yeah. And then, Philip, sounds like all of your process ends up in Word. Is it Word back and forth with the submission as well? Yeah. So, and you know, one thing I did want to mention, cause I thought it was for, you know, when I, sometimes when I do, I will say this for, from a screenwriting perspective, in case there's screenwriting watching, I will often, and I was kind of like shows, but this is like, I was just going to, I often create this as like a, this is sort of my screenplay outline.

29:33Can I see? I use this, I use Excel for this. So I use Excel for like the outline stuff. Well, cause there's, because there's other things that you need to be able to in screenplays. You have to kind of like, like I have like, you know, my, my beats, I have the screen page I have the set listed here and then I have like notes for that set and for that scene sorry I'm trying to get a good visual of it but but so this is something that I have found very helpful when I'm outlining a screenplay because screenplays are a little bit more technical than novels and there's this there's more technical information you'd kind of like have in there so excel is another tool that I use specifically for screenplays and it's where Scrivener is probably definitely more for fiction.

30:15But yeah, when I am submitting, and I've been going back and forth with editors over this past month because I have two books coming out next year, so it's been a bit of a nightmare. But so, yeah, so everything just goes, the Word document goes to them. You know, initially you get, typically you get from editor, you'll get like a letter with broader story notes that they would like to see incorporated or suggest that you consider. But then once I'm getting into the line edit, yeah, it's all about going in and seeing. It's all about tracking, right? So tracking comments. Yeah, yeah. You know, tracking changes, having all the comments.

30:53And then I go back and I make comments on their comments and I reject all the changes. No, I do. Some of them I reject. And then you can see everyone sees like everyone. And then those are the drafts that just continue to go back and forth. So you can see all the changes that have occurred to date. and yeah really then it even when it gets to the copy edit stage the proofreading stage it's like you're still using that same line that's typically how i've worked and i've worked with multiple big five presses and multiple indie presses and it's almost always the same uh the same way for me personally um but that's just because that's what i use so that's why i send them and that's that's how they give me but i like having i would be nervous about google docs personally because i because just kind of and i get it no no no no no but ironically because i would be afraid of losing that information where it's at least because i have like my hard drive i have like a backup hard drive physical and then i also have like the cloud and then i also have dropbox like i am so paranoid about losing um information that i think i prefer to have like yeah quote unquote hard data um but I mean, you can set up Google Docs to save local copies and everything.

32:05Yeah, no, it's more endemic to the Microsoft Word system to start with the local copies and then go into Drive. Do you use OneDrive and that sort of thing? I use Dropbox. Dropbox. So I use Dropbox? I think you did say that. Sorry. Yeah, I use Dropbox. I've tested Google Drive. I prefer Dropbox. I just find it easier for whatever reason I can function with it a little bit easier. I do have a backup hard drive that backs up my computer every day. And – but, yeah, I use Word for all that stuff. And then, you know, it's interesting, and I was actually just talking – Daniel Cross and I were talking about this because he gets the – because after you do all the edits, it goes to layout, right?

32:50And then when you get that final layout, it's kind of like now the book is designed, the interior is designed, so to speak. So you get – it's kind of your last chance to make any sort of – and changes, and they have to be very, very small changes, obviously, because once they're laid out, they don't let you make anything significant. But Daniel prints that out and redpens it, which I have never done at that stage because I just know that they're not going to let me make a lot of significant changes. But it does make a difference how you can find stuff that you wouldn't find a different way. So another example is – I'm sorry, I'm talking too much, but just real quick – is like a lot of times I will – I don't do this so much anymore.

33:37But I used to when I would finish a book, I would go to Amazon KDP and I would bind – I would create a bound version of the book. And then I would edit – Like a print on demand from Kindle Direct? Yeah, for like four bucks, you would get like a bound version of your manuscript. And I would read it that way in addition to just like turning pages, you know, like normal 8x11 pages. And I would find that I would catch things differently if I was reading it more in that format. And I think when you red pen something, again, you know, I think there's only so much you can find digitally. I think you really have to look at – there has to be at least one stage of edits where you are looking at a piece of paper and you are making notes with a pen.

34:18because I think otherwise there will be a lot of stuff that you'll miss in the editing process, in my opinion. I have an author friend who reads all of his books out loud to himself the entire draft. You're supposed to do that, and it's a great idea, but I just don't have the fortitude. I do the most cruel version where I have the computer, not like an AI or anything sophisticated, but a soulless text-to-voice software, just read the book to me. and like there's no there's no intonation there's no interpretation there's just the the coldest possible read yeah so there there's nowhere to hide any echoes or any errors they still slip by somehow but no that's such a smart thing and that is you you like i said you you really should do that you really should read a book out loud it's just kind of like i've i've never like i'm not kind of sit here and read out like a hundred thousand page book out loud to myself but but it's the worst is when you go to like a reading after your book's been published and you do like a reading of a section and then you're like god damn it like i should i'm catching stuff now i should have just done it at the time but um it's one of those things where i just it's unrealistic for me personally i don't have the attention span mallory how do they handle the layout if you're doing most of your stuff in google docs is there another format that they send that in no just good talk just do it there yeah yeah and all the all the edits uh they're just like comments on the side um i get i get my main edit letter as an email um and again long hand because i'm insane and then i uh and then i just go through i just have the the uh document side by side the the draft that i'm working on and then the draft that is commented on and i i have a very wide monitor and i just look at them both and go through them step by step um and it works out I mean, it's just I think the thing that I always want to tell if there's anyone listening who is an aspiring writer, there's a writer who's looking to maybe change things up.

36:17The best writing advice is always the stuff that works. So play around with different things like what I the process that I describe for myself sounds ridiculous and it is. But it just works for me. Even even the dreaded Google Docs completely works for me. And for me, as someone who shares a lot of documents, I host two different podcasts. I'm sharing a lot of outlines and a lot of different people are in there. It's just – it's very – it's easy and it's just my – this weird process completely works for me. So don't be afraid to try different programs and try different things. Yeah, and again, I know I don't want to make sure that I'm in no way disparaging Google Docs because I do think it's a wonderful program.

36:59I just never used – it's just not what I used. But I use it for other stuff like travel itineraries and stuff like that. If you're working at something with somebody real time, it's invaluable. It's absolutely invaluable. I don't work with anybody. I use it a ton with Amy Frost, my narrator, for our podcast. Well, well, well. Here we are. Well, well, well. After all this time. I don't know where this narrative that I'm – A closet Google Doc user. Every good story needs a village, JF. Sorry. He wakes up in the middle of the night and he looks around to make sure no one's there. I see what's going on.

37:39The three of them are turning on the Canadian. Well, they're Google Docs, eh?

37:47No, I mean we use it a lot, especially exactly, as you mentioned, like being able to keep some synchronized idea trading and being able to give notes to each other. I do use Google Doc with my editor, with the publisher, because that's their preferred method. Like I said, the only issue I have is when it slows down tremendously over a certain size makes it unworkable for me. But otherwise, no, I absolutely get it. I want to echo the idea that there's no bad writing advice. The only bad writing advice is anything that's going to make it unenjoyable for the writer. Because I labor under the fantasy or the philosophy that if it's boring to write, it's going to be boring to read.

38:33And people who try to shoehorn themselves into imitating their favorite author, oh, my favorite author does it this way, so I'm going to do it this way, and they use this software, so I'm going to use this software. And then they make their entire lives miserable about it. It's not going to make for a great product. Yeah, I mean, I think about John Langen, who writes everything longhand. And I think about, I could name, I think, I would say there are more writers who do not outline than do outline. I think I'm sort of becoming an outlier when it comes to that. And I don't outline everything, but I do outline most of my novels.

39:06So, yeah, it's exactly right. It's whatever works. And I think it's like – and Mallory made a comment that, you know, sometimes she uses the inks and the colors and stuff because it gets her excited to write. And I think that's another huge thing. It's like whatever gets you in the proverbial chair to write is what works for you. And whatever gets you to finish the manuscript that you're working on, that's the solution for you. Because that's the end game is like sit down and write and finish what you start. And however that works, whether you're writing with pens or whether you're doing Word doc or Google, whatever it is, that's the solution for you.

39:42And we're all wired a little bit differently, especially when it comes to creativity. Yeah. It's getting rid of the things in the way and increasing the motivations is kind of what we've been talking about. Like with JF, it's like, I'll be able to ride on the bus. Then I can write more times. And there's not something in the way that's stopping me from doing it. And with Mallory, it's like, it's exciting. It's fun. I get to play around with the new ink. So I think that's great advice that whatever works for you to get you to get those roadblocks out of the way and increase those enticements is the right thing to do.

40:16And one other thing. I'm sorry. I want to increase the enticements. my house. Yeah. I mean, I, yeah, one thing I was going to say was as far as distraction, because it is a very real thing, you know, a hundred percent. I am the same way. I'm like, I, if I get an email, like stop everything, like to deal with that email. Um, or, you know, people text me or whatever it is, or it, it is, it, you're constantly distracted, unfortunately. But, um, one thing I do, which again, this is like a writer tip or whatever, but like, I always set aside time at night, um, to write. So, because during the day I do get inundated with a lot of emails or distracted by you know things that are people i had to take meetings or zooms or whatever um whereas like you know if i'm writing at like from 9 p.m to 11 p.m that's always like a sweet spot for me because i know i'm not going to be distracted i'm not going to have to do other administrative kind of things um and i can just like so if i'm in project if i'm writing a novel um i refer to it as in project because i'm i write when i'm out of project meaning i'm between books or whatever.

41:21I do a lot of admin work. And then I also set time, a little bit of time aside to actually write, right. Whereas when I'm in project, I'm writing eight, 90 % of the time. And I'm sure admin is like 10 % of the time. But when I'm in project, I will write almost every night because I love that, you know, distractionless, you know, period where I can just focus on the story. And I know they're not going to be like, my agent's not going to be popping emails up that I have to attend to or address. So that's, that's another thing that I do is kind of cheat code for, um, for getting writing down, you know, and I just need to focus on writing.

41:55Well, uh, these have been fantastic. Uh, I think it's a great look at how there's not just one way to do it. And there's all kinds of ways that technology can, but don't have to be a part of the process, depending on where you are in it before we go. Is there any, any other little accessories or little things or, you know, Besides the actual scriveners and the storyists and the ink pens. Did you say quills? You didn't say quills, but now I'm imagining quills. You think I have two cats. You think they'd be letting me write with a quill? Yeah, it doesn't make any sense at all. Are there any other little tools or little things you can think of that we should mention?

42:32Or have we covered it all? I love, as you can probably tell, I'm a very big physical media person. I love objects. I love stuff. And I'm a big person who I love. I collect soundtracks on vinyl, and I think they're really great to write, too. They're perfect for it. Sometimes I see YouTube videos that are timed for Pomodoro's Pomodoro. I think it's like 25 minutes or something. But for me, changing over a record is the perfect. Again, it's forcing myself to focus. I'm like, all right, you got 10 to 20 minutes before this site. Go, go, go, go. and it really breaks things up. And if it's like a movie score, which I collect a lot of, as I said, it's kind of perfect.

43:16There's no lyrics. It's like, it sets a tone. So I really love like pulling certain scores for like the tone of what I'm writing that night. And it really, and also it's good because it gets you up. So you're not, you don't turn into like a little, you know, the cooked shrimp spine that we all get. So like little things like that, it really, I'm all about setting an atmosphere and taking care of yourself, especially like, like Philip, when I'm, uh, when I'm really writing, I can be writing for hours and hours and hours. And so I turn into a little gargoyle. I love pulling records and then doing these little sprints.

43:50And then like, you know, every time I get up to change the record over, I drink some water, I walk around and like, look at something that's in my glowing electronic screen. So it's really, it's a, it's, it's, it's both fun and sets a fun atmosphere, but also like serves a really, uh, uh, utilitarian purpose for me. yeah i never there's i never forget this one time my wife i was writing i was working on a story and my wife came into the my office and she was like oh my god it is so hot in here and i was like what and i was like so focused and i was literally just like pouring sweat and i was like literally i was like i was a hunched over i was like a demon and i was like what and i was it was like i was in a brain fog i was so what i was doing and she was like dude you got to turn the air conditioning i got to open the window because she just got home from work where she found me light call.

44:38And yeah, it is so smart. You do have to do it. Josh Mallerman does that as well. He listens to vinyl movie scores a lot when he's writing. So he's similarly to Mallory. I use, I do listen to soundtracks as well. I use, because I'm more focused on digital stuff, I just use Spotify, but I'll put it on my computer. I will put on, I I use like sometimes I'll use those like frequency focus, kind of like a frequency, like music where it's just, it's just like a hum that like kind of focuses your attention. So it's just like an atmospheric sound. Yeah. Spotify, they have like, there's just an atmospheric.

45:27It's a David Lynch movie. Yeah. Red flashing. This is the water and this is the well. but I will say I will say one soundtrack this is a little bit off topic but I will say one soundtrack that I really love listening to and I'm writing is the Dunkirk soundtrack or anything really yeah it's very like the way it's there's music between the music kind of thing so it's a bit of a mathematical equation in a music soundtrack where it never really reaches a crescendo but it keeps building so I find it a really good writing it puts my head in a good place and when I pick a soundtrack that's usually the soundtrack that I will write to that whole book I try not to vary it up too much because it puts you right back where you were right now it puts you like okay now I remember like you're kind of right immediately it's that plateau you know it's like you're kind of right back where your head was like a bit ago as far as other writing tools the only thing I would mention just from a screenwriting perspective is I use Final Draft.

46:35It's the other software that I use. So I'm actually writing right now. I'm working on a screenplay. So Final Draft is the tool I would definitely recommend if listeners are thinking of writing a screenplay. It is very expensive. Unfortunately, there are cheaper options, but it is the industry standard. It is what industry people, unfortunately, will want to see your screenplay in if you do send it out. But yeah, so other than that, no, man. It's Word. For me, it's like Word, Scrivener, Final Draft, occasionally Excel for my screenplay, setting out the beats of a screenplay. The only other thing I use is this weird notes program, which is sort of like stickies for your computer.

47:20And so when I'm working on a manuscript, I'll just bang out an idea. I don't want to forget. I'll just make a little virtual post-it note that I'll put on my computer. I usually have my post-it notes things here, my manuscript will be here in Word, and then over here it'll be like my Scrivener will be open. Is that Mac or Windows? I use Mac. But there's a million little things. There's a bunch like that. When I'm in project, my computer looks like Sticky Notes, Microsoft Word, and Scrivener. That's kind of what I look at every day.

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49:23I think that's the one thing that we all 100 % agree with is the soundtrack thing. Because I also listen to a lot of Hans Zimmer. I listen to also a lot of video game soundtracks. Jesper Kidd in particular is really good. Those are so good. It's good because it's exactly like Mallory was saying. You can pick a certain theme that fits what you're writing either as a scene or as an entire novel and just put that. and I think I do a lot like Phil like I use a streaming service so I can just the one thing I might do differently which kind of connects back to the idea of having a tonal thing is sometimes I will pick just a song for a project and listen to that song on repeat until it's just a background noise and stops meaning anything and I can that I can do like things with lyrics because after a few hours, it's just that background noise.

50:18And I try to use some of these tricks. Like another thing that I tend to use, not personally as much anymore because I'm not as static as I used to be. But because scent, smell is very associated with memory, picking a certain scent to go with the project that you're working on. Yeah, a candle. a candle, a beverage, something, the moment you smell it again will just snap you back. Look at my candle. Oh my god! This is a great candle for slashers. G-Y. Fantastic. And as far as a piece of technology, I don't use it as much anymore, but I should get back into it because it's very useful, is a mind mapping piece of software where you can just put some keywords and attach them visually to each other so that you can...

51:13It's really useful when you're in late planning stages to see if you have any dropped scenes, like characters or scenes or anything that don't attach to anything or don't attach to enough things within your story. You can see where you have kind of weak parts, and it's a very visual way of looking at it, which is interesting. I haven't done that in like a couple of projects. Is there a particular one you used? Oh, I would have to go get my iPad and look what the last one I was using for. And I'm not even sure it's supported anymore. But it's a good way of just seeing where things kind of connect to each other.

51:54And especially where things don't connect where they should. But otherwise, as far as technology, I mean, I've had to use – I've been strong-armed into writing a screenplay in the past few years. so I know about the costs on Final Draft too. I'm very curious about your use of Excel though. That seems like it's a good organizational tool. I'm very intrigued by this. Yeah, I've actually created, what I did was I created a template in an Excel, which I'd be happy to share with you guys if you want. I would love to see that. So there's all these, I don't want to get into the screenplay weeds, but there's all these different structural guidelines that a lot of screenwriters use.

52:37There's like the Blake Snyder 15 beats. There's a John Truby 22 beats. There's a Sid Field 3X. There's all these kind of like different – so what I did was I took all these different beat structures and I kind of put them all into an Excel document. So when I'm outlining a screenplay, I'm aligning it with these beats, like your all is lost moment or your midpoint or whatever, or pinch here, pinch it. And the reason I think I don't do that with novels is because when people read screenplays, when executives, studio executives or whoever read a screenplay, they kind of expect, you know, they expect a certain way.

53:20Screenplay is much more technical and a lot less fluid than fiction. You can be a lot more free going with fiction. I think if you do too much of that with a screenplay, especially if you're not an accomplished, you know screenwriter or produce screen or direct whatever um they they there's an expectation for what you're going to be what they're going to be seeing and i think if you don't meet that expectation with structure that sometimes it can really impact um your ability to get something sold so to that end i use these i use that for um for screenplays and it just helps me and i don't and i'm not religious to it the same with outlining i'm not like oh i said this so i have to do this it's more just like i want to get everything down i want to get it structured in a way so i can see the whole project at once and then you can kind of like obviously do what you want as you're going through the the process of writing the the screenplay or the or the document or the novel but but at least you have like a big picture of what or what it looks like at least it kind of makes sense you kind of know you know what your three acts look like you kind of know what your where your midpoint is and and then you can kind of like play around a little bit with with the rest but um you know where screenplays is so heavily visual you just can't you can't have scenes in your screenplay that that don't 100 absolutely need to be there for example this is one of the things that makes it a little bit more technical or a little bit different sorry to touch on the like the uh the plotting thing like a lot of people think that building like a structure and plotting your book is like building a case for yourself it's just It's about – it's still fluid.

54:51I keep having to repeat that. I know I'm going way off topic on that, but I keep having to repeat that. People say, oh, you plot your books. I like to be more freeform. I'm still freeform. It's just that when I change something, I can then look at what that change is going to influence later. Exactly. Especially if you're writing mysteries or thrillers where you got to know where you're going. Yeah, anything that you need to follow. So like horror, sometimes you have a reveal that you need to like plot properly and all that. I'm really curious about the Excel sheet for that because I work as a marketing director and spreadsheets.

55:26I love spreadsheets. I'll email to you guys after we're done. Fantastic. Thank you. Well, this has been really fun. And thank you all for taking some time out of your very busy schedules to hang out and chat about this. Before we go, we obviously need to let people know where they can get your books. JF DeBeau, where can people find your wonderful works? They can find – my latest book is Dash Demon, Ecolo Book 1. This is the first printing. Second printing is going to have a cool little blurb from a little-known horror writer called Phil Fricasse. Yeah, he seemed to have appreciated it, so very generous of him.

56:07That's nice of him. It's a great book. I had fun writing it. But anyways, it can be found at Barnes & Noble. And you can go to bookshop.com, find it there. So you can get it from a local dealer. If you have to buy it from a big box, it's available too. And if you need to order it from Vem, if you must, then that's fine too. And do you have a website that people can go consult? I mean, they can go to jfdubo.com or they can go to aquilo.com to see where the podcast that inspired the book is located. but they can't purchase anything there. So it's, it's mostly like a window dressing. Absolutely. Like as far as my accountant is concerned, it's actually more useless.

56:53It's a waste of money. Oh no. Go, go check out Akewillow folks. You will not be disappointed. Phillip, before we go, where could folks find more of your work? Yeah. My website, which is right there, P for cost C, P for cost C.com is the, is the absolute best place. It's got links to everything, all the books, all the different places you can go buy them. My books are generally available everywhere. You can order them from anywhere. And I'm also on Facebook and Instagram quite a bit. Those are my kind of two main platforms. The other thing I wanted to mention before I forget, because I do think it applies to our conversation.

57:33I did a couple years back, I did a limited podcast series called The Dark Word. And I had 24 episodes. It was a limited podcast series. And I don't make any money on it. But what I did was I had 24 different writers come on. And each episode, we talk about a kind of a different part of the writing process to a degree. But a lot of those writers get into their writing process. Some of them get into the types of technology that they use or don't use. so for folks who are on any of the podcast platforms if you just type in the dark word you should be able to find it and you can see everyone from Joe Lansdale to S.A.

58:13Cosby to Paul Tremblay to Stephen Graham Jones to Lisa Moore it's a who's who and they all just talk about their writing process so that might be a resource for folks who want to learn more about the writing process you can check out the dark word what book are you pushing these days? Serafina? I need to pick that up Me? Serapina came out in April. My new book is Traps and Specters, which is a short story collection with an introduction by Matt Dinneman, who wrote a little book called Dungeon Crawler Carl. Never heard of it. Yeah. No one has. That's not everywhere on my Facebook page. Couldn't happen to a nicer person.

58:49He's a great guy. But Traps and Specters is my new one. So that just came out in September. And then my new – and they're reissuing my new – my first story collection, Behold the Void, is being reissued on November 17th. So those are my... Mallory O'Mara, I would just recommend everyone go look up everything you've ever written and buy it all. But what do you want to tell them specifically to look at first? You can find me at malloryomara.com. I generally avoid social media. So don't look for me there. You can find me every Thursday at Reading Glasses. If you are interested in improving your reading life, our slogan is helping you read better.

59:30If you are a romance or erotica reader, I have a podcast called Reading Smut that comes out every other Friday. And my latest book is called Daughter of Daring. If you are interested in the biography of America's first stuntwoman and early Hollywood history where women actually kind of controlled the industry. It's a pretty amazing tale. That sounds awesome. And yeah, mostly podcasts. That's where you can find me. I have not been, I don't even know. I think my Blue Sky login has expired. I don't even know how to get it anymore. But yeah, find me at MalloryMayer.com or on podcast. Fantastic. Yeah, Reading Glasses is must listen for me every week.

1:00:08So go check it out, everybody. We have quite a few great episodes with Tom, I will say. He was our resident tech reporter. You've been nice enough to have me on a couple of times. I appreciate that very, very much. Even though I'm not named Sarah, I still got on. Which is me. Yeah, we usually have a large amount of listeners named Sarah. It's a weird phenomenon. Sarah's love books. Yeah. Well, thank you all. And thank you, everybody, for listening and supporting the show so that we can do this and bring these shows to you. You can support the show directly at patreon.com slash DTNS. It is the best way to support the show.

1:00:45You get things ad-free. All the money is going into our world and not going through another corporate overlord, except for the bit that Patreon takes, which we don't begrudge them. So go support us directly. Patreon.com slash DTNS. We're back with the news on Monday. Until then, have a great weekend, everybody.

1:01:14The DTNS family of podcasts, helping each other understand. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

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