The US Asks Private Companies to Hack Back - DTNS 5331

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2:35Huyen Tue Dao: This is the Daily Tech News for Thursday, August 13th. Thursday the 13th, 2226. We tell you what you need to know, give you important context, and help each other understand. Today, the U.S. changes policies to let private companies help fight transnational crime syndicates. I'm Tom Merritt. I'm Huen Tua Dao. Let's start with what you need to know with that big story. Yeah, so the President of the United States signed a memo Wednesday ordering the Department of Homeland Security's new National Coordination Center, in coordination with the Department of Justice, to create a program that would use private companies in operations against transnational criminal organizations.

3:19Huyen Tue Dao: So this is, at least in the memo, very narrow. At the direction of this NCC, private companies would be allowed to help fight criminal organizations that cross international boundaries. Specifically, the program is trying to go after ransomware attacks, phishing campaigns, financial fraud, sextortion schemes, impersonation scams, all the stuff that you hear about in the technology security news. The program would enable the government to use the talent and resources of private organizations to conduct such operations. Previously, that has exclusively been operated by government or military personnel.

3:59Huyen Tue Dao: Companies would be encouraged to gather threat information and share it. also propose operations against the threats, although they're not supposed to do them themselves, just propose them. That would include, though, the ability to, at the direction of this coordination center, plant spyware, as well as disrupt criminal data and systems. It is illegal to conduct these kinds of operations as a private company independently without a court order. The law says you can only defend yourself. You can't hack back. This would not allow private companies to hack back on their own, but it would allow the government to bring private companies in and use their talent.

4:40Huyen Tue Dao: Some people were comparing it to a 19th century letter of Mark, which was given to private ships to allow them to attack pirates, which makes it very romantic, I suppose. A fact sheet issued about the program said the program will include, and I'll quote, rigorous procedures for the review and conduct of these limited cyber operations at the direction of the U.S. government, ensuring strict compliance with the U.S. Constitution and laws, as well as applicable international agreements. Also requires companies to immediately stop any operations if they find their activity exceeding limits or unintended targeting of U.S.

5:19Huyen Tue Dao: citizens or U.S.-based systems. This is a big concern of opponents of this is when you start hacking the bad guys, sometimes you accidentally hack the good guys. And this says, well, if that happens to U.S. people, you got to stop immediately. Participating companies must maintain a bond of escrow worth at least$1 million. And if they are found to violate any of these contractual agreements, any of these guidelines that say you can't do this and you can't do that, then they'd forfeit the million dollars. This is the kind of thing that is fraught with people picking a side based on who they like.

5:57Huyen Tue Dao: And a lot of it will depend on, okay, it says this, do we hew to that? But what do you think about the words? What do you think about the way it was actually said? I think I felt, yeah, I think this is, especially as someone who works technology, I'm trying very hard to kind of narrow and be as objective as humanly possible as a human being with thoughts and feelings and opinions about this, just because this is a lot. I do like that you know you emphasize of course it is very narrow it's transnational criminal organizations so i suppose that yes the scope being narrow is a good thing all the things that you mentioned the specific crimes and criminal activities are all like i think we can unabashedly say very very bad things that do target you know regular ordinary people this this is not it doesn't feel like you know a kind of government v government espionage thing it feels like these things that very very deeply harm like real people so that's a good thing i the rest of it it's it's really difficult it feels like there is this feels like one of the things where we have an idea let's let's say off the top that nominally it's a good idea like a like a like like a fine idea to use private resources in in especially with these kind of more transnational nature of this that it's a good idea we're just going to call it a good idea i think it is as you said it is just there i feel like the uh again it's a memo so there's not like like egregious detail about this so we can only speculate so far i think that is the thing though is that what are the specifics of this um and words like encouraged don't make me feel as someone who's in technology feel very good that feels like a very like a lot of the language feels a bit loose and again it's a memo it's going to be loose but i i'm a little nervous i'm i'm i i feel like i don't think it's a bad idea off the top necessarily yeah yeah i think i get what you're saying but i do feel like i i i it's always about the details uh about number one like how we flesh out some of this wording to be very specific about what does encourage mean i know you said that counter counter hacking is legal but then i mean for me i'm and i'm not a security person how does what's the crossover with that with planning spyware as you know gathering information that feels also like maybe counter hacking is illegal right now for a private company this memorandum makes it legal in these narrow cases it says yes if the department of homeland securities ncc tells you to, yes, we like your idea of planting spyware on the ransomware people's system, then you can do it.

8:39Huyen Tue Dao: It does not make it legal for a company to be like, we got attacked by a ransomware. And so we went and planted spyware on them without approval, right? It has to go through the channels. And I never feel great about, and again, this is one of those things where it feels like they have to say the thing to make it known that they are aware of the thing. But the idea that just the wording of how that if they exceed limits and if they unintentionally target U.S. citizens or U.S. based systems, then they have to immediately stop. I never like this kind of wording where it feels reactionary rather than more preventative.

9:15Again, it's just wording.

9:16Huyen Tue Dao: And certainly, well, what are you sure there's not wording somewhere that says you're not allowed to target U.S. citizens? If you find you have targeted U.S. citizens, you have like I don't know how you would write that otherwise. Right. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So that's that's I think what things like this make me nervous about is that I think that there is an abstract that I think we can all picture in our minds. And I don't mean this like even a flippant way, like there is a goal here, but that using human words and especially human processes and human like human governmental and legal institutions to enact those those words that are maybe not particularly adept, at least at this point, at kind of describing this very particular and very complicated and very nuanced thing that we're trying to do is.

10:02and that's what makes me nervous. I think if you really wanted me to be objective and neutral, I'd be like, okay, but I need to hear more. And there is more.

10:15Huyen Tue Dao: There's a whole fact sheet out there that, you know, I didn't quote all of it. So there's more out there and obviously there will be guidelines and things drawn up and those should be made public so that we can see what the guardrails are. In the end, this kind of thing really comes down to, do you trust the agencies involved to follow those guidelines? Because I look at this and I say, everything that I'm seeing and hearing makes sense to me in the light of, we would like to take advantage of the talent and ideas of people who aren't involved in the government to better fight these things that we We all agree should be fought, ransomware, sexploitation, all of that, right?

11:00Huyen Tue Dao: Where it starts to break down is in two areas. One is if you're someone who's like, yeah, but I don't believe that's what they mean. Well, then nothing they ever do will matter. So at that point, it's like, well, we can't have a discussion anymore because if you just don't trust anything that ever happens, then we're not going to be able to look at anything they do that way. if you're like, okay, well, let's look at this and realize it will outlast the current administration. And this is a policy that is now set, you know, and if it is adhered to, how do you feel about it? That's where we get into the second objection, which is the reason this has never been done.

11:40Huyen Tue Dao: The reason this is not currently done by most governments is they want to put a very high barrier against private companies going beyond those boundaries or getting in the habit of going beyond those boundaries, even though they're not supposed to. And a lot of concern about friendly fire, so to speak, that we should be very circumspect in how we combat the bad guys because those systems are so intertwined. You are going to affect private companies who you didn't mean to affect. You're going to affect private citizens in other countries who you didn't mean to affect. And so those are some of the more legitimate objections I've seen, which is like, yeah, the reason we don't do this is it tends to creep beyond the boundaries.

12:30Huyen Tue Dao: It's hard to contain that kind of behavior. I think that framing it that way is more interesting in that, OK, let's let's decide on some rules now or let's talk about what this could look like and then set a precedent for from this administration going forward. I do for some reason, I can't explain exactly. I do. I do like the like the discussion and understanding and setting a bar is are important things to do because these kind of crimes and this meth, this modality of attack is not going away for sure, even though it feels relatively new. right compared to and like when you were just speaking it made me think of like conventional warfare like the like everything you just said is very true of conventional warfare warfare like very deeply unfortunately and so i feel like well if we're going to enter like we are already in this phase of the world but if like let's be explicit let's let's like discuss and let's put up boundaries for you know in this new world where these things happen and we're you know like the cyber element is a modality that can be used to fight these kinds of crimes especially on a transnational level.

13:35Okay, let's talk about it. And I think that's very fair.

13:38Huyen Tue Dao: And when you bring up the parallel to conventional warfare, another reason you often don't see private companies fighting alongside the military in a conventional sense, they'll make products for them, which already happens in the cyber area as well. But the reason you don't do that is now you are subject to penalization as a non-uniformed combatant, which means you start to have restrictions on where you can travel and countries might arrest you for things that you have done in the theater of war. And that could happen here too. If you're just somebody working at a company and that company is involved in this, that could be enough for you to be traveling and like, oh, well, you work for this company and they are accused of war crimes against our country, Myanmar, Russia, whatever.

14:30Huyen Tue Dao: And so we are going to detain you. There's worries about those kinds of risks as well. These are not the kind of risks that you can't mitigate against, that you can't create systems against, but you need to, you know, if you're going to do this sort of thing. And it's going to be very controversial, especially with allies of the United States. Like, well, wait, we all agreed we would never do this and you just went and did it. So let's talk about that. I like the idea though. If there's a lot of ifs, if you can make it work in a responsible way, bringing some of the white hat minds to bear against this problem would go a long way to reducing the kind of fraud and crime that is preying on all of us right now.

15:17Huyen Tue Dao: And I say all of us, it's not them, it's us. You are assaulted every day and good for you that you haven't been made a victim yet. Percentage chances are eventually every single one of us will become a victim because these systems are improving at such a rapid pace. And all of us have a weak moment where our guard is down. And, you know, so it's just a matter of time unless we can reduce the number of chances that you are exposed to. And this is an attempt to do that. I don't mind that framing at all. Okay. Let's talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, one thing we don't have to talk about is how grateful we are to you, the listener because DTNs is made by you.

15:59So let's take a little bit of time to thank Tyler Glaze, Ken Hayes, WhatTheIf, and Paul Boyer.

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18:44Huyen Tue Dao: All right, there's more we need to know today. Let's get to the briefs. All right, it's going to be one tough one into another because we're talking about Flock cameras right now, which are most well known for being used to track license plates of cars. And they have been criticized for having insufficient protections against misuse by law enforcement and governments. Flock also sells drones, audio detection systems, and mobile trailers. Flock announced it will implement new policies on its systems, and these include reducing default settings for data retention from 30 days down to seven. requiring a case code to be entered to justify a search of data, letting customers restrict which types of offenses can justify a search, and implementing a mandatory audit log that can block users when it detects abnormal search patterns.

19:31Huyen Tue Dao: Great. Wish you would have done this earlier is all I can say. Yes. I doubt these are the only things that need to be done, but we've had stories that we've talked about on DTNS about like, well, if there had been an audit log, then you would have noticed this. And I really liked that it's a mandatory audit log that will auto block and then put it up for review versus like, well, if someone looks at the audit log, I guess they'll figure it out. So great. Probably need more, but good start. Yeah. And this is maybe again, maybe more of a smaller scale, more like palatable version of what i was kind of feeling earlier with the previous story is that a lot of this is reactionary um and i think my opinion of tech companies is that they tend to be very reactionary like especially especially with these kinds of let's say backlashes or not even backlashes but these kind of like pitfalls of their technology uh they they tend to just kind of like can we do this thing let's do this thing oh shoot there's a bunch of bad things about doing this thing let's pull it back a little bit and even like things that are like nominally like uh innocuous like air tags right so i i agree i think these there's nothing i have no complaints about any of these restrictions of new policies it is again that more reactionary thing and what they're at i mean and that's even again the microcosm of abnormal search patterns you don't really know what an abnormal search pattern is until you have examples of what the behaviors that they're trying to like remove is i mean like for the most part so that is my worry again is that these are great This is a good idea.

21:04Usually you kind of want to think about these things first. And you can argue that, again, you really don't know how people are going to use things until they put their hands on it. But if we can speculate on future technologies, I think we can speculate a little harder on how people might use them for bad things and try to like preemptively put stuff in.

21:19Huyen Tue Dao: And municipalities were starting to back out of contracts, cancel contracts because of public pressure. That is the kind of thing that pressures flock to put these in place. So that is a thing for you to know. Yes, just know that it works. Twitch now offers its streamers a way to opt out of their streams, VODs, clips, stream chats and pictures and text on your channel to be used in a future training of a model developed by Amazon, whose purpose would be to generate or synthesize text, audio, images, or video. In short, you can now opt out of your content being used to train Amazon's models. To opt out, you got to find the setting.

22:01Huyen Tue Dao: It is on your channel, not in your creator dashboard, at twitch.tv slash settings slash security. It's a little fuzzy whether Amazon has been training on your data up until now. Now, there was a quote in the Ars Technica article from two years ago that implied that maybe they've been training on your data for at least the past two years, but you can opt out now. So sensing a theme in today's story, which is, well, wish you might have done that earlier, but OK, great. All right. Well, the Wall Street Journal says people familiar with the matter say Apple has been discussing deals with publishers to make current news stories available for its Siri voice assistant.

22:44The sources say Apple has proposed payments based on how much their content is used. Apple already pays publishers to train on content. This would basically be letting the sheer, sheer, sheer, sheer, sheer, sheer, sheer is that Sean Connery. I turn into Sean Connery so much when I read specific tech company names. This would let Siri AI access fresh news stories to answer queries.

23:09Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah, I think this is really interesting because if you just read the headline, you might think like, oh, Apple's finally paying. Well, no, Apple's been paying. They pay for inclusion in News Plus. They pay for inclusion for training. This is not for training, like you said. This is, we want Siri to be able to just look at your most recent stories and immediately go like, oh yeah, there's a story from Wall Street Journal. Here it is. And they're paying for that. So that will make Siri AI that much more usable and is good for publications and journalism. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Really quickly, since when also host Android faithful, I thought we'd get a quick check in on what you when thought of the announcements, especially because we had not seen the live stream yet.

23:49Huyen Tue Dao: When we reported all the news yesterday, it came out of NDA early, but the live stream was after we recorded. So what, what did you think? it was fine uh i know everyone wanted to think one was curious about what who the host was and how they would do compared to jimmy fallon um trevor noah was fine he was very trevor noah and it was good i i think it it's really hard to get super excited i i was telling a friend actually i was talking to dr nikki yesterday about this because she was asking me about the phones um i said you know the phones are solid i think the pixel line's great all of the little improvements are are good the colors are amazing and um there are significant improvements yes the big thing is that because of ramageddon less ram more price so that is kind of like the big i think negative here they did they were very we were we've been talking about the little led highlight thing for months now on android faithful it's to let you know specifically a specific contact is calling you can set colors for different contexts and and that's cool um and i think that's actually my reaction cool like if you're in the market for a new phone uh strongly consider pixel Like literally right now, if you're in the market for a new phone, Pixel is a really solid option.

24:58They've got great colors. Everything is like kind of, you know, just getting like that much better and better. But that's it. Just cool.

25:06Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah. And it is the newest phone of the major flagships at this point. So slightly newer than the Samsung phones by a month. Absolutely. I mean, I did. I pre-order a Pixel Fold because I'm. Hello, I'm Monica Reinagle, host of the Nutrition Diva podcast. Summer is here and with it, the hot and sticky weather. A morning working in the garden or maybe on the golf course can leave you more depleted than you realize. And plain water isn't always the most efficient way to restore the balance. That's where Liquid IV comes in. Its science-backed formula is clinically proven to hydrate faster than water alone.

25:44Whether you're exercising, playing outside, or simply surviving a summer heat wave, it's an easy way to stay hydrated. Shop now at liquidiv.com. Liquid IV, hydration that goes wherever life takes you. Hey guys, it's Drew Afualo from the comment section. Listen, it's time to stop settling for hair products that just don't work. With all the prestige brands at Sephora, upgrading your routine is easy. If your hair needs repair, they've got the K18 Leave-In Molecular Repair Hair Mask. If you're trying to level up your wash day, the Kerastase Elixir All-Time Hair Oil leaves your hair looking ridiculously shiny without feeling heavy.

26:21And if you're into that glossy, healthy hair vibe, the Gisu honey infused hair oil is a must have. Also, Sephora makes it super convenient with free shipping and same day delivery. Shop hair at Sephora and give your hair the upgrade it's been waiting for. I'm a foldable girl, so I want to compare it with the Samsung because that's kind of like where in my mind we're going. So, but yeah, cool.

26:45Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah, I like it. that is a succinct and informative review. All right. Well, would you want a fun and informative listen about the intersection of science and technology? Well, guess what? You can spill the technical tea with me, who into it now, and Dr. Nikki, wherever you get your podcasts.

27:08Huyen Tue Dao: Let's get to those quick headlines that make you look smart. All right. Well, Microsoft is merging its Copilot and Microsoft 365 Copilot apps into one. What's the difference? Doesn't matter anymore. You can sign into Copilot with a personal school or work account. Yeah. One of them was work and one of them was personal consumer. But yeah, thank you, Microsoft, for simplifying it. Yeah. Lenovo reported its revenue rose 43 percent year over year. The majority of the boost coming from its infrastructure solutions group. You could guess that's the part that sells servers and networking and storage nodes to data centers.

27:44Gasping shock. Well, WhatsApp is rolling out scam alert in limited beta, which uses a local machine learning model to warn users if they appear to be targeted by a scammer.

27:53Huyen Tue Dao: Machine learning. I like hearing that. And local. I like hearing that. So yeah, these are both good. Meta reported that it has deactivated around 756 ,000 Australian accounts as a result of the law that prevents younger people than 16 having them. 462 ,000 were removed from Instagram and 294 ,000 from Facebook. Well, Meta has donated 15 ,000 Ray-Ban Meta glasses to Vision Ireland, a charity that aids people who have lost their sight. Meta estimates it should be enough for a free pair for each person Vision Ireland supports. Yeah. And if you're in Ireland and curious about applying for these, you just call them up or go to their website.

28:39Huyen Tue Dao: I mean, I know why Meta is doing this. We know, but... We know exactly why. But it's still a good thing. Yeah, it is a good thing. Yeah. If anyone's like, wait, why? Why are they doing it? So that people go like, oh, it's not all harassers. Yeah. It's also blind people that need them. Reviews are out for the DJI mic. Microphone Mini 2S has improved noise reduction and range. But the big thing that people are excited about is local recording. 32-bit float internal recording available in almost all the markets, not in the United States. But it starts at$149 Canadian, 79 pounds UK, or 99 euros. Well, CounterPoint Research estimates that China's YMTC has become the third biggest provider of NAND storage, with 14 percent of the market behind SK Hynix and Samsung.

29:30YMTC pushed past Japan's Kyokushia into third, despite being on the U.S. entity list, which restricts its access to parts and equipment.

29:38Huyen Tue Dao: Just imagine how they'd be doing if they weren't restricted, I guess. Meanwhile, chipmaker CXMT has passed Tencent to become China's most valuable company with a market cap of$524 billion. CXMT is the world's fourth largest producer of DRAM. Not sure that these restrictions are having as much of an effect as maybe they were intended. All right. Well, the Financial Times reports that China's fastest growing job sector is food delivery and ride hailing drivers, with the category gaining 10 million people in the past two years to reach more than 53 million as of the end of last year. Yeah, this story is broader than just those numbers, too, if you want to go take a look at it on FT.com.

30:24Huyen Tue Dao: Basically, no country is exempt from the, their tech companies are making more money than ever because of data centers, and the jobs are in the gig world, and people are having a hard time finding jobs. It's happening in China as well. So Anthropic is in talks to purchase a company called Descartes, D-E-C-A-R-T. So not Cogito, ergo some Descartes. This is a different Descartes. This Descartes makes software that can help chips work more efficiently and reduce the cost of training and operating models, which will bring down the cost of a data center and operating a data center and maybe eventually bring down the cost of RAM for the rest of us.

31:06One can only help. All right. Well, in case you missed it on Sunday, Mark Gurman speculated that because of the U.S. holiday on September 7th, Apple might do its big iPhone announcement on Wednesday, September 9th. Gurman also said on X that everyone at Apple calls the new foldable the iPhone Ultra. To my sadness, that it's not the iFoldable.

31:26Huyen Tue Dao: I mean, maybe that's just the code name and it won't be called Ultra. The code name that just sounds like a regular old brand. Yeah, yeah. That would be very Apple, I guess. I don't know. Finally, Love and Deep Space is an otome, a narrative romance game that lets you meet space boyfriends. I mean, otomes do all kinds of things, but Love and Deep Space specifically lets you meet space boyfriends and date them. It had never brought in less than$30 million since launch until July, when revenue fell to$10 million, according to Censor Tower. Why? The answer is incredibly complicated, but here's the short version.

32:06Huyen Tue Dao: On June 22nd, the game introduced the sixth love interest, a werewolf called Valco, and a backlash happened for a lot of different reasons. In fact, the Next Web did the Lord's work breaking down all those reasons. And the character was deleted on June 30th. And now there's a backlash against the backlash saying we need to be on the app until they bring Valco back. I will very proudly say I am an Otome fan. I don't actively play a lot anymore, but I have been in periods of my life a big Otome fan. So may I say I understand some of the reason for the backlash, but also not cool, y 'all. Just some of the backlash.

32:51I mean, it's always interesting, especially with these kind of games about it's not just a game. It's like marketing and story writing and character creation, all those kind of things. A lot of work goes into it. yeah sometimes they misfire but oh man that's a big backlash y 'all like two like like down two thirds that's 20 million dollars yeah um i i would i i suppose i if you wanted to classify me i would be on the backlash to the backlash side it's like oh y 'all that's so i have a little bit of a

33:19Huyen Tue Dao: conspiracy theory that would probably take too setting up too much background uh to really detail But the initial backlash included being mad about the file name having a number that related to an atrocity. I did not read that part. Okay, I need to. It's not the only part of that backlash, but that part really reeks of online social media bot-led campaigns to get people mad about something. Yeah, that's okay. There was a backlash in Korea against Starbucks for calling something tank day that also felt like it was a legitimate beef, but it was whipped up online to be bigger. And the fact that the short eight-day backlash that got rid of Valco is resulting in a$20 million backlash from actual users makes me wonder if maybe that first eight-day backlash was some kind of tit-for-tat social media campaign.

34:24Honestly, I will put my forehead on for that because it was very odd to me. And I don't play love in deep space. And every community is different. But I did find that a little odd. I find the reasons that were cited like, okay, that's a fair reason.

34:37Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah, there's some very understandable reasons. But yeah, it is very surprising. I mean, these things kind of happen all the time in Otome, especially very long-lived ones. I have, let me think, Sendai-era Japanese boyfriends. That's like the Warring States period. And vampire boyfriends, just to out myself. So there you go. So I understand, but I will put my tinfoil hat on for that because that is very strange. Yeah, and you can get fandoms whipped up pretty easy. Oh, yeah, it's not hard. It's not hard. On that bombshell. We end every episode of DTS with some shared perspectives. Today, Med adds another concern to components in military drones that ping that they are online.

35:21Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah, thank you, Med, for writing this in the Discord. We were talking about the Royal Marines drones that were found to be sending data, And we were talking about like, well, they weren't sending personal data, but the data they were sending could be damaging. Med wrote some observations on the Royal Marines drone sending any data to China. All of your points were correct, but there's one angle missing. Some damage is already done. If those radio signals hit more than one tower, then China and potentially its allies can ascertain British military training grounds through triangulation. So being able to tell like, oh, it was this area, this area, this area.

35:56Huyen Tue Dao: And that's no small breach. Their allies are at war with ours. Med writes our as allies. I believe he means the UK and Russia have struck at NATO training sites, both indirectly and directly. So, yeah, I didn't even think about the triangulation aspect of being able to kind of figure out location of where stuff is going on. A lot of that stuff's public, but not all of it is. And that could reveal some stuff that isn't supposed to be. all right well if you have any uh sharp insight like that into a story or you want to pontificate on either the less fun stories or you want to tell us whether you have a sendai warlord era boyfriend or a werewolf boyfriend or space boyfriend you can tell us we'd love to hear feedback at dailytechnewsshow.com thanks to med for contributing to today's show thank you for being along for daily tech news show you're the folks who keep us in business whether it's just listening to an ad or supporting us directly which helps us even more patreon.com slash dtns

36:56The DTNS family of podcasts. Helping each other understand.

37:02Huyen Tue Dao: Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

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38:42Thank you.