Who's Running Your Smart Home? - DTNS 5375

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2:27Welcome to the Daily Tech News Show Big Tech Question, where we look at the tech news this week and ask, what does that mean? I'm Tom Merritt. This week, the big questions are, do you want Apple to run your smart home? The answer won't surprise you. Are governments or corporations the biggest corporate espionage threat? And would you rather own a self-driving car or just hail one when you need it? Joining us here to draw the top tech news of the week, Len, for all to welcome Len. Go guards for you. First, today's tech news, though. Let's get to Sarah Lane and Jason Howell.

3:04Sarah Lane: The iPhone duo went up for pre-order today, and a combination of reportedly limited production and high demand has already pushed shipping dates into next year. In fact, my own personal delivery is currently scheduled for January 25th, 2027. And I got up at 445 Pacific time this morning to do this. So it goes. Meanwhile, Bloomberg's Mark Gurman says Apple is planning another announcement on October 28th with a touchscreen MacBook Pro expected to be that big headliner. Wow. I woke up at 445 AM too and I'm not getting an Apple phone. I don't know what's wrong with me. Well, neither am I. Yeah, that's true.

3:46You're going to have to wait. I'm not getting one probably ever. Open AI updated its ChatGPT extension for Chrome. So it can now see all of your open tabs and into them. Regular ChatGPT can compare the contents that appear between them, right? While ChatGPT work can go a little further. It can do things like fill out forms, send messages, organize those tabs for you, that sort of stuff. It's available on any ChatGPT plan and works in other Chromium browsers as well, like Edge, Brave, and Opera.

4:15Sarah Lane: Google is updating links in its AI mode and AI overviews yet again, adding more inline links, placing key sources higher in responses, and making related articles more prominent to encourage clicks through to publishers. But Search Engine Roundtable is noting it still doesn't share the click data that publishers need to assess whether those changes are actually working. Yeah, they really want that click data. They keep asking. Meta released MuseSpark Open. It is a open weight model, 816 billion parameters, 1 million token context window. It's a mixture of experts model, by the way. It handles text, images, other media natively, as you could expect, and is built with coding and agentic tasks in mind.

5:03Designed, though, to run locally on Apple's M5 Ultra Mac Studios. though Engadget does say that it needs at least a terabyte of RAM to do that. So something that like that maxed out Mac Studio could do, definitely not going to do any of this stuff on like a MacBook Air, let's say. But most people will likely use it through the API platforms where it is available now.

5:28Sarah Lane: Can you imagine just a few years ago if someone was like, I need a terabyte of RAM? I'd be like, no, you don't. What are you talking about? Where are we? But again, we all used to have like 60 megs of hard drive storage in our computers as well. e-Ink announced the Kaleido 4, a new color e-paper display that could bring better looking pages and smoother performance to future e-readers. According to the company, it can produce more than 40 ,000 colors, brighter whites, and 50 % better contrast. Plus, faster refresh rates and support video up to 18 frames per second. Hanvan's M10C2 tablet is the first device to use this.

6:14Sarah Lane: So if you happen to have your hands on one, you might have thoughts on it. More availability is coming to e-readers soon. I'd love to see that in person, see how it stacks up. The General Conference on Weights and Measures voted on the 15th to stop adding leap seconds to coordinated universal time, which is the standard that the world's clocks are set to. Now, there have been 27 leap seconds since 1972, and they've been a source of complication, let's say, for websites and services that assume that every single minute has 60 seconds. The change is going to take effect on May 20th, 2027. And yes, over time, UTC and Earth's rotational time will eventually drift further apart.

7:02But that's an issue for another lifetime. You don't need to worry about that in your lifetime.

7:05Sarah Lane: Are we even going to be around? Yeah, we're not going to be there to deal with that. Linux open source community KDE marked its 30th anniversary with Plasma 6.8. That's an update to its Linux desktop that improves remote access and drops native X11 sessions in favor of Wayland. Older X11 apps will still work with ex-Wayland. The update adds clipboard sharing between remote computers, better streaming on slower connections, integrated backups, and more control over which CPU cores run specific tasks. KDE also released a documentary. You might be interested in this. It's called A Story of Free Software Underdogs.

7:45Sarah Lane: that's to celebrate its anniversary. Is that the story of the lady with the blood and everything, the documentary that's going into it? It is not. That's a different documentary. That's a different one. That's a different one. Oh, okay. All right. I just wanted to be clear. This is kind of like Linux community. It's easy to get confused. You can understand my confusion. The lady in the blood. I was like, where are we going with this? Tesla. I blanked exactly the wrong time in that one. Tesla demonstrated a Tesla Roadster prototype that uses high pressure compressed air to let the car briefly lift off the ground for a few seconds and do a flip.

8:26It also uses underbody fans to create suction. That gives it better grip for accelerating and for cornering. Tesla hopes to bring the model into production in 2028. Hopes. Yeah. I'm sure someone is going to, maybe I shouldn't say anything just to see, but I'm sure someone's going to write in and say, well, you know, they are going to add a leap hour in like a thousand years. So it's not as bad as all that. I don't think I'll be around to see that, but you never know. You never know. I mean, we may live forever.

8:57Sarah Lane: Right. You all will. Science is always getting better. I will be the last person to die. I've always thought so. DTNS Live is made possible by you out there. Thanks to everybody watching, including Chris Allen, Reed Fishler, Larry Bailey, and Dale Nemec. We couldn't do it without you. And welcome, David. Brandon, we got a new patron, David. Yeah, David. David. David.

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13:01All right, it is time for the big tech question of the week. It is time for the big tech question of the week. Vote on which side you would join in our poll at patreon.com slash DTNS. This week, Apple announced its HomeView, a little smart home hub, can look like an old iMac or can be mounted on your wall. They also announced a bunch of smart home devices in cooperation with LG and Schneider Electric. Now, with the Matter standard, and we talked about this a lot on Tuesday's show, Apple supports Matter. So you don't have to lock yourself into one system. if the LG stuff, some of which says it's matter compliant, others doesn't say specifically, so we're still waiting.

13:40But if it is, you wouldn't even have to use a home view to use it. But Apple sure didn't like to highlight that aspect of smart homes these days. So our big question this week is, do you want Apple to run your smart home? Joining us to discuss the big question, of course, we've got the whole team together today. Sarah Lane, thank you. Welcome. Hi. Rob Dunwood is in here. Welcome, Rob. Roger. to audio listeners. He tipped his hat to you. Roger Chang, welcome. Hello. And Jason Howell, of course. We are going to start going around the table with you, Jason. You're an Android user. I'm going to guess I know what you're going to say, but are you going to let Apple in your smart home?

14:22I mean, my answer is pretty straightforward here. I think ultimately it comes down to ecosystem, right? You know, I am an Android user. I do use Apple products. I have Apple computers, but I don't use Apple smartphones. And I just kind of in general, like, I suppose I could use Apple for smart home control, but I'm hesitant because I know that Apple sometimes likes to offer certain features for its other devices that interplay and interoperate in really unique and cool ways. And I just kind of don't want to, you know, run the risk of being left out of something big or the inconvenience of trying to modify how I use those things so that it fits in a more limited fashion with the devices that I do use.

15:04I don't know. I've seen that in other facets of Apple products crossing over into Android. And so that's my hesitation, I think, more than anything. They're nice products. Don't get me wrong. All right. Let's stay in Android land with our resident Samsung Galaxy enthusiast, Rob Dunwood. I know you've got some Apple products too. What do you think? You're going to let Apple in?

15:24Robb Dunewood: No, but it's not because I dislike Apple or don't like Apple or don't think Apple could do the job. I just don't have enough Apple stuff to warrant making that be the hub for my home. I am an Android person. And as you said, I'm a Samsung person. So most of my stuff is going to be either through Google or through Samsung SmartThings because I have so many Samsung devices in the house. It just kind of makes sense to use the stuff that's built into it. And they both use Matter. So I can add pretty much anything that's Matter compliant. And I would never look at anything that isn't Matter compliant.

15:58Robb Dunewood: Apple is. So once again, it would work. But I don't own anything Apple other than, you know, a MacBook Neo and an old MacBook like M1, not MacBook, but a Mac Mini M1 that I haven't probably turned on in six months. So it just wouldn't make sense for me to be in Apple's ecosystem because I'm just not in Apple's ecosystem. Sarah Lane, people are going to expect you to say yes, because you don't have the objection that the Android users have. Where do you stand?

16:30Sarah Lane: Well, I got to say, if I was starting from scratch, if I was like, I would like a smart home, I want my devices and my lights and maybe some smart home gadgets to all talk to each other and have a hub in one place, I would totally go with this. I already have this though. Now it is a little bit cobbled together. I mean, I use Amazon's ecosystem for the most part with a variety of gadgets and lights and I've got routines and I've built all of this over time. And yeah, every once in a while, something gets a little finicky. You know, my Sonos speaker in the bedroom went out last night. I don't know why.

17:12Sarah Lane: I hard reset it this morning and it's fine now. So I think for anybody who enjoys the Apple way of saying one and done, you just get this and everything just talks to each other. That's what Apple is going for. Now, is that going to be as seamless as Apple wants it to be? Hard to say. But I'm kind of in that camp of, well, what I've got going on is fine. It's sort of like, do you upgrade or do you not upgrade? I just don't really need to right now. If I had to, then I would. So we've got a couple of Android users who I think, unsurprisingly, are like, I don't think so. We have you, Sarah, which I think is a really instructive example of like, well, but I already have my smart home setup going.

17:58You know, like this isn't offering me anything that I can't already get. It really doesn't. I got a thing going. So Apple's only hope on our panel is the oppositional nature of Roger Chang. Oppositional nature. Wow. No, that just makes you – you're trying to define me as a contrarian. I'm not trying to box you in, but you maybe do have a little bit of a contrarian nature. I don't have a smart home system. Everything I have is just very ad hoc. Like I need this and that's all I have and they're all sort of incommunicado with each other. If Apple provided a system – and this is the thing. It has to hit three things.

18:43It does compatibility because it has Matter standard, but compatibility and ease of use are two different things. That is definitely one of the Apple pitches here is use us and everything's easier. But if I can use that through an app on my Android phone, yeah, I might be swayed. Two, it has to be robust. In other words, it cannot be something that, well, yeah, like smart lights, oh, it went out. You can expect that to happen every two or one to two years. It's like, no. If Apple is pitching this and they're going to charge the Apple premium on top of it, I would like something that is sort of one package, one and done.

19:25But then I don't have to worry about replacing things in a couple of years or two or three years. Honestly, for me, it's really dependent on how the reviews come out for this stuff. like how well people find it working with existing setups or a brand new setup or I don't want to use an iPhone setup kind of thing. And so I give them a benefit of doubt as long as you're not gold-plating the stuff and then tacking on a 20 % upmarket charge over something that already exists. Oh, by the way, the new Apple TV, which is a home hub, is$299, not$100. oh there it goes yeah yeah yeah i look at this and i i use the amazon echo as sort of the controller aspect of my smart home that's the thing i talk to uh when i'm like turn on the lights turn off the lights give me this give me that but i'm not in the amazon ecosystem it's not like i buy all my smart home products from amazon it's i don't even use amazon music uh or any of the things that would make it really easy to use the Echo Show for things.

20:36I don't even really use it to watch video, which is something we talked about on Tuesday's show with the Home View as well. So part of me is like, well, why wouldn't I just use the Home View? Even if I don't want to use all the Apple stuff, it might be a better experience. It might be better design. It might look better, might do cool stuff. And then you start looking into, well, what do you give up if you don't have an iPhone or iPad. This is an important part too, because for people like Rob who have a MacBook Neo or Jason who have a Mac, or Roger, you have a Mac too, right? Like you don't get the setup advantage for having a Mac that someone gets for having an iPhone or an iPad.

21:14If you want to do the initial multi-user setup, the one that will recognize you when you walk up, you got to have an iOS device or an iPad OS device. You can get the general Siri AI stuff on HomeView, so you get some stuff out of it, but you're not going to get the personal context or anything like that, especially that multi-user support, that starts to make me go, oh man, I'd really miss that. I mean, I have an iPhone, so I would be able to use it, but it starts to make it sound like, well, why wouldn't I just get an Echo Show or a Google Home at that point? Yeah, I think when I think about this, I think, you know, what is, it kind of sounds like where a lot of us are landing right now is if we have a smart home of some sort, we already kind of have the thing that works for us, right?

22:02Like I didn't mention explicitly, but my smart home products are all operating in the Android world. They're pretty much made by Google and that's just what I have. So then I guess the question becomes, what is the secret sauce that Apple can introduce into their smart home that is so dang good and so different and so unique and kind of killer app sort of thing that it makes those of us who already have something that works for us go, oh, okay, actually, maybe I will change my mind. And if there's nothing there, then the solutions, they're all kind of on parity. And maybe that's the problem is like the landscape is what it is.

22:41I mean, you get some benefits, like you said, Tom, if you happen to have an iPhone and you're interacting with some of these devices. But are those enough to pull like an Android user across? Well, they're clearly not because because that wouldn't appeal to me, because it wouldn't work for my devices. So then it would have to be something else, and I don't know. Yeah, the Home View isn't the thing that makes you switch from Android to iPhone, right?

23:03Sarah Lane: Although, I do think that the Home View, the promise of it, for anybody who doesn't already have an Echo Show or something compatible, where it's like, oh yeah, I can look at stuff on here, that if you don't have that, and everything's going through various apps on your phone, which is doable. You know, it's not like it's not doable. So that, I think that is where the home view is going to appeal to a lot of folks. For me, I have an old Echo Show, Series 8. So 2019, it's still rocking. The screen has gotten sort of yellow over the years, but whatever. But it does its thing. I also, the, you know, the whole sort of like, you can FaceTime.

23:47Sarah Lane: I mean, my Echo Show is in my kitchen. because I use it for like a lot of recipes and just, just kitchen related things. Do I ever, well, I wouldn't use FaceTime on the, on the show, but would I ever do some sort of like video chatting with somebody while I'm in there? I wouldn't, I wouldn't, but also families are different. You know, kids want to talk to the grandparents, et cetera, et cetera. So I do think that the, if you, again, going back to, If you don't have this sort of smart hub that is a visual thing that sits somewhere and can do things for you, then it might really appeal. But either you just don't care or you're like me and I'm like, eh, I'm just going to use what I have.

24:36Robb Dunewood: Even though I am not an Apple user, I'm not in Apple's ecosystem, I do get the appeal of the walled garden nature of Apple products. if you have an Apple product, it just works with other Apple products. And there's significant benefit to that. I hear this all the time from my folks who have iPhones and iPods and Macs and Apple TVs and all that kind of stuff. So I get that. Where I would push back is that when it comes to your smart home, though, Apple doesn't make all things. They don't make refrigerators and stoves and microwaves and light bulbs. And there's so many things that go into your home that now can be smart.

25:17Robb Dunewood: I don't know that that's the place where I would want to be in a walled garden. Now, clearly, this supports matter. So it's not a walled garden. But, Tom, you alluded to this. It is Apple-y. You need to use an iPhone or an iPad to do some of the really cool things, at least initially, with this. And for that reason, that even if I were, you know, even somewhat in the Apple ecosystem, I probably would look at something else just because I know that, you know, even though I might use an iPhone, in my case, I don't, but somebody in my home uses an iPhone. There are other people who use Android. There's other people who use other things.

25:51Robb Dunewood: And I wouldn't want any one of them to feel like somewhat less than because you can't configure or you can't, you know, hey, go get your sister so she can get you set up on, you know, on the home automation system. That is not necessarily cool if you're not all in that Apple ecosystem. Yeah, I think this is really meant to capture new smart home users who are already Apple users. And that may be limiting to Apple, but it's going to keep them because there are plenty of people that they can sell a HomeView to who are like, yeah, I have a Philips Lite and it's kind of wonky the way I use it. But I've been wanting to do more.

26:32And Apple's like, great, we can set you up with a home view and a couple of light bulbs and an electric plug and a security camera and a doorbell lock. You know, the whole ball of wax. We'll even have an ADT installer come out if you want to. But it isn't that hard if you want to do it yourself. And then suddenly that person has their smart home. They're feeling great, right? Because they're like, oh, I'm doing all the things that my friends have been doing that, you know, I haven't had time to get into. And they're going to stay there, right? They're not going to leave to go to it. Now, to your point, Rob, they may get a smart fridge, and that's where Matter compliance comes in, where they're like, well, this one isn't as easy because it's a Samsung fridge.

27:11But at least it works. At least HomeKit can see it, and it starts to get a little complicated around the edges there. But that's where I would expect that Apple is going to start doing more partnerships, and LG fridges will have this kind of Apple seal of approval on them in the future maybe.

27:28Robb Dunewood: I would even have to guess that Apple probably is already thinking that we have to make integration with other devices as seamless as possible on the home front because they don't offer everything. We have heard former CEOs of Apple say, if you don't like it, get an iPhone. You can't say that if you don't like it, get a new refrigerator. They don't make a refrigerator. You can't get a new garage door opener. They don't make garage door openers. And so those things have to work as seamlessly as possible with the Matter Protocol simply because you wouldn't want being in the Apple ecosystem to be the reason that you don't get something because it's like, okay, well, wait a minute.

28:07Robb Dunewood: It's really cool for me, but what if I want a garage door opener that doesn't work seamlessly with Apple? I could just as easily get an Echo. I could just as easily get Google. I could just as easily get some other company that makes these things that I talk to and then things just happen in my house automatically. that work more seamlessly with things that I may get down the road. So Apple, I think, has to be thinking about that. Yeah. And setting up a Matter compliant device on HomeKit right now is pretty easy, right? It's just not as dead simple easy as they're making the LG and Schneider stuff sound.

28:41Now, none of us have tried them yet. Maybe they're not as easy in practice as they are in theory. But in theory, they're saying this is like pairing your AirPods, right? You just turn it on. It says, oh, I see this. Do you want to add it? boom you're done right whereas the matter compliance requires like one more button like search for it oh okay now i see it you know it's it seems small but it is the kind of thing that's going to make someone go well maybe i should just get the apple you know approved one because that setup is so simple even though the other one's pretty simple well folks we want to hear your votes so uh get on our poll at patreon.com slash dtns especially if you're watching it live because in the post show on Patreon.

29:21We'll be checking in on your votes. Are there any of you who want to let Apple be in your smart home? There must be. There's got to be. There's got to be. We'll see. We'll check in and find out. So go vote on that. Meanwhile, Sarah, what's coming up on Live With It this week?

29:36Sarah Lane: Oh, I'm glad you asked, Tom. Each week on our product review show, Live With It, we talk about all the tech in our lives, robots, home theater solutions, camping. This week, Scott Johnson's talking game controllers And boy, does he have a lot of experience with them, specifically how they all compare to Valve's Steam Controller. Live With It is on YouTube at YouTube.com slash at Live With It Show. Thank you for subscribing to everybody who has. If you haven't yet, please do. It helps other people find us. And big thanks to all of our patrons who keep us going. You can become a patron at Patreon.com slash Live With It.

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31:16This week we heard the news that an OpenAI employee was accused of implanting a device to record conversations in an executive conference room. Still can't get over how funny that picture is. That led to several stories about all the various attempts at corporate espionage in Silicon Valley these days. Some people think that it's governments trying to get an edge, maybe some sovereign AI, that sort of thing. Others think it's the companies spying on each other. So our next question of the week, do you think governments, I mean, let's be honest, it's both, but do you think governments or corporations are the biggest corporate espionage threat?

31:53Let's go around the table. Rob Dunwood, you've worked in the enterprise before. I'm sure you've been tangentially exposed to people talking about corporate espionage risks, if nothing else. What do you think?

32:07Robb Dunewood: So when I first saw this question, I said, semantically, I have questions about the question because governments do not suffer from corporate espionage. espionage. They suffer from espionage. Or if it's financial, it could be. The question should be, I'm running a technology company. Is a government spying on me or another corporation spying on me the bigger risk?

32:34Robb Dunewood: The bigger risk. In the worlds that I've lived in, espionage between companies. I mean, we have big buildings in Virginia that they don't tell you the names of or the people who work there, that it's a part of the federal government, that this is literally part of what they do, a large part of what it does. So, you know, espionage between countries. The stakes are so much higher. You could be talking about elections. You could be talking about power grid. You could be talking about things that like if if if GM is shut down, it's going to really suck for a lot of people, even though we've once said that that company was too big to fail, but people don't necessarily die because GM got shut down for, you know, for a week because something happened in their system or somebody stole something that happened in their system.

33:22Robb Dunewood: That is not the case when you're talking about government. So just the impact of what could happen based off of government doing things is to me is much, much greater. But I think the, you know, the occurrences of things happening, probably there's way more companies than there governments, companies will not have near the sophistication that a government could have around stuff that they really want secure that companies would have, at least with the exception of the biggest of the big companies. So my gut tells me there's way more espionage that happens in between companies, but the stakes are so much lower that I still would put espionage at the government level as a much, much bigger thing and a much bigger threat.

34:03So if I'm open AI, I should be more worried about the Saudi government, the Chinese government, the Russian government, maybe even the German government and the UK government than I should be about Anthropoc.

34:13Robb Dunewood: Yes, because if they want those those countries you just named, if they want your stuff, they have the most capability to get it. And there's not a lot you're going to do to stop them from getting it. You will have to talk to your government to get them to stop doing those kind of things. Roger, I know this has got your wheels turning. What do you think? um i think we're at the so i i'm in broad agreement with rob however my delineation is that there really isn't a difference anymore between what what between government espionage and corporate espionage they go hand in hand basically they go hand in hand i mean i people might think it's something recent, but like corporate espionage, like of the kind that we're talking about goes back way even before the founding of the U.S.

35:03and the U.S. was engaged in it or the colonies were engaged in it because there was economic security is part of national security. Right. And so those two go in hand in hand. Now, not every company is going to get the same benefit. Mattel is not going to get the hand of the CIA when they want to steal secrets from a rival toy company in Japan. However, if you are, say, an up-and-coming AI developer in China, and you need to gain secrets about developing your own large language models that you cannot get from a Chinese source, the Chinese government will help you. I mean, it is no secret that when government, you know, espionage done by hackers affiliated with the Chinese government stole a lot of information from Lockheed Martin, that a lot of that technology showed up literally overnight on Chinese military aircraft.

36:04Right. So it's it's what it benefits that nation if their companies get access to secrets or that they can break what they see as an unfair monopoly. Right. It's like, well, only you get to hold those secrets. No one else does. Like, no, we're going to take it from you and then we're going to make it better. And then we're going to sell it back at half the price and, you know, destroy your industry. I mean, I think the case for Chinese espionage is pretty obvious. North Korean espionage, pretty obvious. I think some people get more confused about the case for a potential Saudi Arabia spy on the U.S.

36:38Because aren't they allies? Aren't they sharing with each other? Isn't OpenAI selling them? Somebody's paying them more. Right. Everyone spies them. This is the thing. One of the things that came out when the whole thing with Angela Merkel, when it's like the U.S. was spying on all the heads of the EU, It turned out that the German intelligence service was secretly wiretapping a lot of American officials in Europe's communication. It's a thing that happens between everyone because whether it's financial, military, medical, or whatever, it all gets grouped under national interest.

37:18Robb Dunewood: Yeah. Jason and Sarah, do you have any other perspectives on this? because I feel like we're covering, between Roger and Rob's perspectives, we're covering a lot of ground here. I mean, I'm pretty much in a very similar boat here. It's hard for me to distinguish between the two. The stakes are super high politically, competitively for companies, for governments. Tech is politics. That's something that I keep feeling and saying a lot recently, and especially now with the proliferation and development of these AI models becoming, depending on who you ask, so incredibly world-changing and powerful and everything.

38:01So now suddenly we have a lot of different governments, US included, really kind of putting decisions in place to either support or go against it, but often to support it. Why? Because they want to be ahead. I just think they're so intertwined that it's really hard to separate them. And to be honest, I'm just kind of reacting to the news I read and all that kind of stuff. It's hard to really know what the driving force is behind the person involved with the OpenAI case right now. I'm sure that trail is going to lead somewhere and we'll have some more definitive ideas at some point. But I think it's impossible to kind of pull them apart and say, well, you know, probably the bigger threat is corporate espionage, because I imagine at the root of corporate espionage, at somewhere down the line of that tree, there probably is some tie to, you know, some political impacts there too, because those Venn diagrams overlap too heavily at this point.

39:04Sarah Lane: Yeah, I agree with you on the Venn diagrams. That's kind of where I am too, is we have companies who clearly are stealing trade secrets from each other. We talk about this all the time. So there's that. That's kind of one level of this. But then it's sort of like, okay, so and then where does that get you? Does it get you a better position at the company that you steal the trade secrets and bring to? Okay, sure. But more often in a lot of these scenarios, not all, but a lot of them, it does turn into some sort of state actor situation. Tom, you asked, what does Saudi Arabia have to get from the US?

39:49And who knows?

39:51Sarah Lane: I mean, it might have just been a rogue employee or it might be something else. And I think they – like you said, Jason, they're so intertwined now that unless you're following this stuff all day every day, it can be a little confusing. You can kind of be like, well, so why is China mad at us? There's a lot of that going on. Is it company to company or is it a political statement that's being made? I'll make the argument that – I'll create a potential argument that corporate espionage is a bigger danger because government espionage, to Rob's point earlier, is a government thing to take care of.

40:33So if I'm OpenAI or Anthropic or Apple or Microsoft or anybody else, to be honest, if I feel like the Saudis are coming after me or Chinese are coming after me or the Germans are coming after me, I'm going to call on the U.S. government. In fact, that's exactly what OpenAI did. When they found this device, they called in the FBI. So I feel like you've got someone to protect you from government espionage. If Anthropic comes to open AI and steal something, yeah, you can call the FBI still, but that's less of a priority for the government than state actors coming after us. And I feel like that's, even though it's a lower stakes in the grand scheme of things, it's an easier thing for people to get away with.

41:19It is harder to detect. There's a case going on right now between Apple and OpenAI over stealing trade secrets, right? Yeah. Rob, how do you think that plays into all of this?

41:31Robb Dunewood: So Apple is accusing OpenAI of having former Apple employees who have now gone to OpenAI that still have access to Apple and are literally bringing things and people across. Stuff that we would all say is bad if this alleged stuff actually is true. But Apple has a remedy there. They go to court and they sue the pants off of OpenAI. And then a judge, you know, a U.S. judge will then sit down and figure out what is is and make a ruling that they'll probably settle at some point. That's what companies do. But if it is the Saudi government coming after Apple, Apple can't go or coming after opening.

42:13Robb Dunewood: I open it. I can't say, hey, Saudi government, we need to get this figured out. Saudi government says, no, we're not going to figure it out. What do you do at that point? You get the U.S. government to put pressure on the Saudi government. That's it. So you have to go to the to the government to do it. And then, you know, depending on what company you are, who runs your company and who's running the government at the time, there's a determination that's going to be made whether or not the government really cares at that at that point. It didn't necessarily always have been that way, but it's kind of that way lately.

42:43Robb Dunewood: So I just think that the stakes for espionage are so much higher at the government level, because here's the thing. If the government wants your stuff, if I'm not going to I'll just make up, you know, if Acme Land, the new superpower in the world, the new country that's just showed up in the middle of the Pacific, if they now are coming after a corporation or even going after a government, the governments are the only ones who can actually truly respond to that level of espionage at that level. So does that happen as much as company to company? Probably not just because there's so many more companies and so many more individuals in companies are just trying to do stuff.

43:21Robb Dunewood: But the stakes are just so much higher because you can literally get into conflicts over these things happening when you are a nation state. Which is, again, why I think if I'm running a company like that, maybe I'm outsourcing the defense against the governmental threats to the government. I'm going to cooperate with them. I'm going to spend time on it. I'm going to do security sweeps and call the FBI. But I'm going to have to create my own system for catching the corporate espionage, for catching the guys across the street who are trying to do this. And then I'm going to have to hire my lawyers and go to court.

43:55I have to do that all myself. So I don't know if that makes it the bigger threat, but it certainly makes it the thing that I have to spend more effort on. I would argue it depends on what's being threatened, right? If the technology, if the product is considered instrumental in national defense or a key economic driver in the country, you would – if – say you're Denmark, right? And Lego says like someone's coming in and stealing all our Lego-making secrets or whatever. I mean Lego is like 12 percent of that country's GDP. Sure. I mean, and also the patent expired. Now everybody can make them too.

44:36But the idea is that, well, they're developing new technology. But say something like, you know, Denmark would get on the ball because you do not want that industry to fail. It's an essential industry in Denmark. And you do not know who's doing it. It could be a domestic competitor. It could be an international competitor. You don't know until you uncover it. And so if the risk is there, yeah, you're going to get on it like a four-alarm fire. But if it's something like, yeah, someone's stealing our burger secrets, like, eh, you know, it's the fast food business. Deal with it. The Colonel's secret recipe?

45:10No. It is a secret after all. You can't take it. All right. Let's finish up with this one. This week I got an email saying the Waymo, the autonomous cars in Los Angeles, the Waymos, are now using their highway access for all routes within the service area. They didn't expand the service area. And they've had the Waymos out on the highways being tested. I caught one recently myself. autonomous, not with my mouth. Did you release it? Yeah, I took an Instagram photo.

45:37Sarah Lane: That's one fishing pole. It was out of season. You threw it back. But the point being, autonomous cars are really beginning to spread. We're really seeing this, not just in Los Angeles. They're expanding Waymo service to Toronto soon. That was just announced. There's autonomous car service coming to Europe. It's all over China. It's all over Singapore and other parts of the world. So the question I put to the group, would you rather own a self-driving car? When we get there, pretty much all the cars are now self-driving, right? When we get to that point, would you rather own it and have your self-driving car shuttle you around?

46:17Or would you rather just be like, they're self-driving? I don't need to have it. I'll just hail one of those when I need it. I'll keep myself the car I drive with my own brain for a little longer. Taking the position of, you know what, I think I'd rather own the self-driving car is Jason Howell, Rob Dunwood, and Sarah Lane. On the side of, I'll just hail that one, is Roger Chang. And starting us off is Rob for Team Let's Own Them. Rob, go ahead and give us the side of like, yeah, man, I want to own a Waymo. I don't want to rent a Waymo.

46:52Robb Dunewood: I am definitely team-owned my car that can drive itself. And I want to be pretty quick with this. I live in a fairly large city, Columbus, Ohio. It isn't Los Angeles or New York or Houston or Dallas big, but it's a big city. And in this big city that I've lived in for 30 years, I have never used a ride-hailing service or got a cab in my city ever. I drive everywhere. In fact, I've actually seen people who needed to get a, you know, to get an Uber from near where I live to go someplace that I was going to. And I get there before they actually get the Uber to the place where they are to get them to the place that we just went.

47:31Robb Dunewood: It would have been quicker for me to just go pick them up and drive them with me because it is it is a big city. It is very spread out. And it's just the city here is unless you are downtown, you just literally need to drive everywhere. everywhere. And if you don't want to wait. So for me, I don't want to wait at all when I want to go somewhere. I don't want to have to wait for something to show up. I want to go get in my car, go to where I want to go and probably get back home before the Uber even gets to my destination. All right, Jason, Sarah, you got a minute left. That's a pretty compelling argument, though.

48:01Sarah Lane: Yeah, I mean, I'm with Rob on this one. I live in Los Angeles, obviously very spread out place, a big, big car culture here. And hailing down a, it would be a Waymo for me, just because they're everywhere, literally everywhere, at least in my neighborhood, is not hard to do. But there's still that, that there's that part of me, because I own my own car, and I have a parking spot. So it's not hard for me to, you know, kind of come and go from my house when I have to. It's that in an emergency five minutes makes all the difference right you know does my dog have to go to the vets you know do do i have to go help a friend across town um and the idea of not having my own set of wheels is just that's something that i have a really hard time uh letting go of jason yeah um i mean other than pride of ownership um so i can like paint racing stripes on it and put messy bumper stickers on the back and stuff if I want to.

49:01But I don't want to have to hail and wait for my trips, period, end of story. And I think it's a really good point that you mentioned, Sarah, is like, in case of emergency, or I live, you know, maybe we all live in fire country nowadays. But, you know, if there's a fire bearing down, I won't be able to get in the car. I won't be able to go. And I don't want to have to like suddenly, you know, hop on to some sort of network where everyone else is also hopping on and try and battle it out for them. So for me, it's about the impulse. When I want to go somewhere, I want to go now. I don't want to have to think and do any mental gymnastics as far as planning five or ten minutes in advance to call the thing, blah, blah.

49:38Okay. There you go.

49:41Sarah Lane: We're very passionate, Tom. I understand. I understand. Very passionate. I also have a feeling that a section of our audience is going to find these arguments very American. So I'm curious, although he's also American, what Roger Chang has to say in defense. Is he, though? wait a minute no he's totally this kind of show yeah we're not demanding roger's as american roger is a is america but but you're taking that side of like wait a minute hold on maybe i'll just be able to hail the self-driving car i mean if it's a self-driving service i mean i mean i'm keeping my yeah i have a car that roger chang sits in the driver's seat or my wife sits in the drive seat and drives to me that takes care of any emergency impulse fire bearing down i'm not sure if i want a self-driving car because i think i have a better idea of how to navigate my my city based on the hazards that get flown up on on my on my map but if i just need like to send my kids somewhere like to uh their girl scout meeting or if they're going to a field trip or if they need a doctor's appointment or whatever, it just seems less hassle to get a ride-hailing, get him there, and then send him back.

50:56Because oftentimes, my wife will take one child, and I'll take the other one. And it just seems more flexible. Also, it would save me a lot of insurance. Where I live, the insurance bumped up by like 30 % after I moved from San Francisco, which is saying a lot. And honestly, the cost of ownership would seem a little high. Also, then I got to have this another car occupying the driveway. I don't know. It just seems like a lot.

51:26Sarah Lane: Well, you don't have to have both cars. You could have the self-driving car as your car. It's just do you want to own it or do you want to hail it here and there? But that's what I'm saying. I'm already keeping my Roger-driven car. That's sort of a different conversation. You're saying I'd rather have a car I drive myself. And then I could use self-driving cars from time to time because they're convenient. But I'm going to keep my two hands on that wheel. And also, I have two small kids. It's like when we have an impulse, it takes 45 minutes for us to get out the door. So if I hail a ride to Highthailing Service, it's going to be there in, what, 20 minutes?

52:08It's more than enough time to overlap between screaming kids and having everything out the door ready to go and getting in the self-driving car. Rich SPK has an interesting question. Wouldn't self-driving cars evacuate? Somebody brought up fire country, right, Jason? Wouldn't self-driving cars evacuate in a more orderly fashion than human drivers? Which I guess doesn't matter if you are owning a self-driving car. It doesn't matter if you own it. But if you're not owning it and they're evacuating in a more orderly fashion, maybe it's not a problem to be hailing it. Maybe that's well organized. And also, if you're driving it yourself, a lot of times in evacuation scenarios, you're just sitting, waiting because everybody's trying to get out at the same time.

52:49And so, yeah, maybe self-driving cars would speed that up.

52:53Robb Dunewood: Now, my gut would tell me that someone who lives, let's say, in Manhattan or in Brooklyn, they might have a different experience. Oh, let's go beyond that. Because I've been thinking if someone lives in Tokyo or Singapore, you know, like I think there's a lot of people out there who are like, well, wait a minute. I don't have a car. I don't own a car. And I'm able to deal with all these objections everybody's been talking about, about, you know, getting to a friend's house in an emergency and taking the kids places. You just do it differently when you don't have a car. I hear arguments from folks who aren't from here about it's so uniquely American.

53:31Robb Dunewood: Do you know what is also uniquely American? That you can be in a state called Texas and drive across it for 11 hours and still have seven hours to go to get to where you're going in the same state. This is the thing. When I lived in San Francisco, I lived without a car for seven years, and I got around fine. I did rent cars time from time to get out of the city or if I needed to get something large like a sofa. Or not my sofa, someone else's sofa. But for those seven years, and granted, I was single at the time, so I wasn't worrying about kids and all that. But I can make doctor's appointments, dental appointments, the bus, the transit subway system, BART.

54:12Think about the city that you're saying, though.

54:13Robb Dunewood: The city that you're saying is ridiculously population dense. So if you're living in a Midwest big city, like if you're in downtown Chicago, yeah, ride hailing makes a lot of sense. If you're in Naperville, it just doesn't. Yeah. And this is the thing. Where I live in L.A. actually has a very high walkability score. When I first moved there, I spent half the time walking to the post office, walking to the supermarket, walking to my kid's school. My kid's school is like three blocks away from my house. I do a lot of walking. I was very surprised because that's like, oh, yeah, 80 % of my time is going to be in the car.

54:50That hit song, Nobody Walks in L.A., right? You're defying it. Well, yeah, and that's what I was doing. I was walking, except during the summer. During the summer, you want AC, so you're in the car. But it really depends. This is the thing. I mean, Rob is straight to the point, though. Very dependent on where you live. If you live in an expurb, a suburb where amenities are a driveway, yeah, it's probably better to own it. But for me, I mean, I already have a sedan. And then just having a ride hailing service helps round out the edges, you know, because then it allows me to do other things other than occupy my car if my wife needs it to take my kids to Girl Scouts or something like that.

55:35Yeah. I mean, the key question I think we're circling around is the it's the density and reliability of the autonomous car service, which we're assuming I think correctly will be more readily available in dense areas and probably more of an advantage where it's harder to own a car, park a car and all of that sort of thing versus rural areas. It doesn't matter where in the world you are. If you're in a rural area and there's just not demand, you're not going to have as quick of an access to those autonomous cars. Yeah, theoretically, they can get to you, but where are they coming from? Might be a half hour, a couple hours for them to get to you, in which case you're probably going to want to have that car yourself, even if it is autonomous.

56:16Robb Dunewood: You know, a dream for me is to say to my wife, hey, babe, you want to go to North Carolina right fast? And she's like, yeah, let's go. And what we do is we go get in our car and we watch Gladiator, take a nap and play Xbox. And then, oh, we're here five and a half hours later. That is a ridiculous benefit that I want to own. I want the vehicle in my garage that will allow me to do that. I just want to be able to do that one day. Corollary question real quick before we wrap this up. For those of you who want to own your autonomous car, would you rent it out when you're not using it? Because that's one thing that people have suggested as a benefit of these is you could have your autonomous car go shuttle other people around and make some money off of it if you're not using it.

57:02Sarah Lane: You know, the whole rent your car out thing still exists. But, you know, back in the day, there were a few startups when I lived back in San Francisco, and I think Roger and Tom, you did as well, that they had some success, especially in a city like that where it's very dense. A lot of people don't have cars, but they need them every so often. But it never really took off the way that I think these companies wanted it to because it was just so sporadic. If you don't have a car, you don't – I don't know. I mean everybody is different, right? But if I decide not to have a car, I really don't need it that often because I've decided not to have a car.

57:42Sarah Lane: um and when i need it you know the having the autonomous option that's awesome right it's like rob said like i want to go on a trip you know let's go out of state um and i can i can you know still be watching the road but kind of be kind of be doing my thing um which is what the promise of autonomous cars are but uh but yeah i think it really depends on where you live if you could send your car out when you're like let's say you're traveling you're like i'm not even going to be in town for two days autonomous car go make me some money as a rental income because people do hail rides right i mean i am totally into getting some some some income uh passive income right but then it's it's all about you know do you want people eating snacks in the back of your car that they're not going to clean up yeah you just you just you have to either be like it It is what it is.

58:38Sarah Lane: Or, no, no, I want control. Expelling snacks. I mean, if they build the interior so it's easily cleanable, you know what I mean? Or the service you're using to rent it out cleans it at the end of your period. Yeah, like the hard services you get on buses. So you could just take a hose and open both doors and just hose it out, let it dry for an hour, and then it's good as new.

59:04Robb Dunewood: So I have a buddy, I guess, that I play basketball with, and he owns a tricked-out Ford Expedition, the big giant truck. Yeah, yeah. He owns a Lamborghini, and he owns an Aston Martin. And the reason he has those vehicles is because he actually rents them out. And it's a cool business that he has. He says, like, I wanted this car, but I didn't want to pay for it, so I can only drive one of them at a time. so he literally leases these things out on um on services like toro and some other stuff uh you know that he does and he makes money from it he also owns a helicopter he also owns three planes planes don't do well when they just sit in a hangar they actually need to be flown to you know to be of use to people he says i can only fly it when i'm flying it yeah so he literally has a company that he leases his planes to they take care of all the maintenance and he just has to book when he wants to use his own plane or his own helicopter and he makes money off of it.

1:00:00Robb Dunewood: So he owns these things and he doesn't pay for them. His company owns them and his company is paid and he just leases his own stuff to, uh, you know, when he wants to use it from the company that he's created for it. So it's, he, he, that's what he does for a living. He just leases his own stuff. He's got motorhomes and everything, but this is what he does for a living. Well, that is going to wrap up the show. Uh, thank you everyone for helping us debate these questions and get a better understanding of them. We decided that we're curious who does want Apple to run their smart home. Obviously, governments and corporate espionage are kind of hand in hand.

1:00:38Maybe government is the bigger threat. And I think most of us would love the idea. I think even Roger would like to own the self-driving car, you know, potentially. It just may not be the first thing he does. But thank you, everybody, for helping us work through this. I noticed the viewer count going up the longer we went, which is always a good sign of a good conversation. Len Peralta has been illustrating today's show. Len, what have you drawn for us today? Yeah, you know, great conversation today. It was really fantastic. And I was saying before the show that I'm really enjoying trying to mash up the questions on the art.

1:01:21And I think I did a pretty good job. You know, you're going to have to stretch your imagination that the gentleman in the middle there, who I'm going to call Doug Schafke, he took a driverless car to be harassed by Apple and Mr. Espy and Aj. So, yeah. this is it's just kind of kind of weird get away from me mr oj exactly this is my friends call me espy aren't you named after an award anyway um yeah so uh uh if you'd like to see this crazy piece or you'd like to own the crazy piece you can go to my patreon patreon.com forward slash Len, back me at the DTNS level. You'll get it immediately, or you can go to my online store, LenPeraltaStore.com, where, by the way, I am taking orders right now for holiday cards, custom-drawn holiday cards.

1:02:22I know we're ahead of the time, but you can be an early bird, and you can get your order in today. Fantastic.

1:02:27Sarah Lane: People are definitely thinking about that already. Get that order in. And a reminder, you could have your art next to Len's art in our DTNS calendar that we're putting together. All the details are available at patreon.com slash DTNS. But yeah, submit your art because Len has given us three great panels for three of the months. Scott Johnson has given us some great panels as well. And the rest are going to be yours. I mean, could be literally yours. So send us your ideas, feedback at dailytechnewsshow.com. Look for the submission guidelines on Patreon. Also, don't forget to use your hype points if you're a YouTube subscriber.

1:03:05that helps other people find the show, discover the show. Big thanks to everybody on Twitch. We got a resubscribe from FakieNoseGrop00. Good to see you. TheaterMonkey as well for the 83rd month. And GKS Collins followed us partway through the show. Welcome, GKS Collins. It is good to have you. Also, thank you, patrons, for keeping us in business. You can support us directly at patreon.com slash DTNS. there might even be a discount right now. In fact, there might accidentally be two discounts right now. So you might want to go check that out. Get your name in the show next time. Patrons, stick around for the post show as well.

1:03:44We have two specials coming to you this weekend. One of them, Patrick Norton and Roger Chang, talk about whether DIY PCs still make sense. And on Sunday, it's part two of our Cybersecurity Month special, where Brian Brushwood tells us all the best ways to defend yourself against the current spampocalypse. Scampocles.

1:04:10This week's episodes of Daily Tech News Show were created by the following people. Host Rob Dunwood. Host Jason Howell. Host Sarah Lane. Host Tom Marino. And host Wen Tweedow. Producer Roger Chang. Producer Anthony Lemos. Video producer Joe Kutz. Editor Hammond Chamberlain. Social media producer and moderator Zoe Detterding. Our mods. Beatmaster. Wscoutus1. BioCal. Captain Kipper. Steve Guararama. Paul Reese, Matthew J. Stevens, and J.D. Galloway. Modern video hosting by Dan Christensen. Music provided by Martin Bell and Dan Luters. Art by Len Peralta. Acast ad support from Todd Tuchek. Patreon support from Bobby Wagner.

1:04:45Our guests this week were Brian Brushwood, Nika Monford, and I as Actar. And thanks to all our patrons who make the show possible.

1:04:56This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

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