Why Siri AI is Delayed in the EU - DTNS WEEKEND

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2:21Hello, friends. Welcome to a Daily Tech News Show weekend edition gratefully provided to you as thanks for your continuing support of this show. And this weekend, we are going to talk a little bit about what's going on in the European Union in regards to Apple with Mr. Patrick Beja. Just to set the table though, Siri AI will not be available initially in the EU on iOS and iPadOS because Apple says we're working hard to find a path forward to preserve our users' privacy and security. If you missed the whole thing with Siri AI, it is an improvement to Siri that will do the kinds of things that other chatbots do.

3:02It's something they kind of promised a couple of years ago. Now they're going to deliver on it when the new operating system updates come later this autumn. and it will have a chatbot app and higher capabilities. They are running into the Digital Markets Act, which we've talked about a lot on the Daily Tech News show. Digital Markets Act was put in place in 2023 and among other things, does a lot, but among other things, it requires interoperability for what are called gatekeeper platforms. Gatekeeper platforms, loosely, my interpretation of the definition, because it's got a very precise definition, is the big platforms that would be hard to compete with if there wasn't interoperability.

3:43EU's trying to have a level playing field. So Apple isn't entirely a gatekeeper platform. They've been able to get exemptions for some of their services because the EU says, oh, that service that you run isn't very dominant, so you don't have to go with interoperability. In fact, you could require interoperability, which of course Apple doesn't do. but in situations where they are dominant like the app store and things like that then they are considered a gatekeeper and they have to comply with the dma's restrictions apple complains that complying with the dma would and i quote give any ai system nearly unlimited access to a user's device as well as the ability to act on that access autonomously without a user's ongoing visibility and control.

4:30That includes the ability to read and send messages, make purchases, access files, and execute actions across any app. Now, Apple says they designed something called the Trusted System Agent, which would be an intermediary that would allow virtual assistants to safely access the same features and capabilities as Siri AI for devices in the EU. Apple also shared a plan to launch Siri AI in the EU while gradually rolling out that new solution over an 18-month period. In response, the EU digital affairs spokesman, Thomas Regnier, said Apple was simply unable to develop interoperability solutions that meet essential EU privacy and security standards.

5:11So they're both saying it's because of privacy and security, but they obviously have different perspectives on what that means in the case of Siri AI. Regnier also wrote on LinkedIn, instead of offering a compliance solution, Apple asked to be exempted from its interoperability. So Apple's saying we came up with this new way of doing it, but also the EU saying they asked for an exemption to it and we didn't give it to them. So Patrick is here not only to talk about that, but just to help us understand the context of the DMA and what it is meant to achieve. Patrick, thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me.

5:46I'm very glad I can provide a little bit of context and if i may offer a correction that might prove important yeah good uh minutes i was i was definitely uh uh ad-libbing a little bit of the uh of the explanation offering a correction tom tom i am correcting you on your own turf i'm not correcting you on the dma i'm correcting you on apple's siri ai which as you said um will not be available in the eu but it's not siri ai that won't be available in the eu it is the beta of siri ai that won't be available no that's a fair yeah that is a fair point because we haven't got we haven't even got to pass the beta correct yeah and my uh the reason i'm being an a an idiot about this is that i think it's important because down the line uh as i'll explain why i think uh that stance from apple will change and we'll get to that in a little bit.

6:47Regarding the DMA, I followed the conversations about the conflict between Apple and the EU on most, you know, American podcasts, videos on YouTube, and, you know, French outlets, to be honest, websites, etc. And one thing that is a constant source of frustration is that everyone discusses this in relation to the current specific conflict about Siri AI. Like Apple wants to put it out in the EU and the EU is saying, no, you can't because you have to open up your system entirely and allow other AI companies to get access to essentially the core of the issue is the semantic index, right? They have to be able to access the semantic index and the apps to give agentic capabilities to their AIs in the same way that Apple can on iOS.

7:46And Apple is saying that would be dangerous. The thing is, they are absolutely right, 100 % right. It would be dangerous. It would be a privacy invasion that users would need to allow. But still, it is a little bit dangerous to give everyone the power that Apple has on iOS. The thing is, the reason the DMA exists, everyone talks about gatekeepers and big platforms that restrict access and all of that, which are words that aren't untrue. But the reality of what we're talking about here is remedies to monopolies, right? This is what the EU is noticing, which quite frankly, I think everyone agrees on.

8:33There are a handful of tech companies that have so much power, so much market share in certain markets that they are arguably monopolies, duopolies. You know, it's a very dominant position in certain markets for some of those companies. You know, different markets are owned by different companies. You can talk about Apple, Google, Meta, Microsoft, et cetera, et cetera. And they have such a dominant presence on some of those markets that they can leverage that dominance to gain an advantage in other markets and prevent competition to exist, fair competition to exist. So what I'm trying to say is that the EU, the EU's mission with the DMA is to safeguard, to save capitalism.

9:32Tom, the EU is trying to to make sure that capitalism is not destroyed. I'm joking, but really I'm not, because the market, the open market, in order for it to function, in order for capitalism to function, you do need fair competition. If you don't have competition, then you can't have alternatives that emerge to existing dominant companies. And the end result of that is that consumers end up paying more for goods and services that would have otherwise benefited from the competition and have their prices forced down because of that. That's the essence of the open market, right? And what's happening, if we get back a little bit to the topic at hand, if we talk about Siri AI, there is a very thorough argument to be made that AIs and agentic AIs in particular are going to become a significant part of our relationship to machines, to computers.

10:49You are going to be dedicating an increasingly large amount of time of your part of your interaction with phones, laptops, desktops, maybe even new form factors with your interaction with those AIs and agentic AIs. And if a company that is already dominant in one of those markets, in a market that is, for example, the way that most people access their computing tasks, like a smartphone, like a computer, and that company leverages that dominance to impose their own solution of what might possibly be the next way people interact with silicon chips, then I don't think it's a stretch to come to the conclusion that they are kind of forcing their solution where otherwise the competition would have selected the best alternative.

11:58And so I think this is what's happening here. And of course, the EU is a lot more sensitive to that issue because it just happens that all of the companies that got dominant in the tech sector and on the internet are, well, Americans, and we don't have any. So it's easier for us to take action on those because we're not attacking our own champions. I can tell you that in France, for example, when you're talking about IP rights and the defense of IP rights, you have a lot more lobbying happening and maybe a lot less willingness to hit those important companies over the head with a stick. But in the case of tech, I think most people would agree that there's a handful of companies that have a lot of power.

12:47And in order to make sure that they don't abuse that power, it's not a completely insane idea to force them to open things a little bit. Let me remind you that in order to break monopolies, there are many, you know, much more drastic actions that can be taken. It has happened in the past, including in the U.S., that companies needed to be broken into several companies in order to restore that all-important, so-important competition. And I was joking earlier, not joking, saying that the claims of Apple that it would put the private data at risk for its users was true. And it is true. And if there wasn't a situation where Apple was dominant on this market of the smartphone, I would agree with them.

13:49I do agree with them. And I would agree that we shouldn't touch it. We should just out of principle, let Apple handle its whole thing and offer the solution they want to offer and let the market decide. Right. But when you're in a monopoly situation, we could argue whether or not this is a monopoly. But if you believe it is, you need to go to drastic decisions in order to force open those markets. And specifically, if the companies use their dominance in the market to influence another one. So I wouldn't be okay with anyone, EU or another country, telling Apple you need to open this in any other situation probably than a monopoly.

14:35But the monopoly imposes special rules in this. So I think this is a very important aspect. The EU doesn't hate Apple. Well, maybe they do, but that's not the reason they created the DMA. We don't hate Apple. I really want to have Siri AI as soon as possible. The reason these rules are put in place aren't to punish Apple or Google or anyone else. It's to restore as much as we can, maybe clumsily, the competition that we believe is needed. And let's be honest, Siri is the default AI on iOS. They'll be fine. They'll be fine. Of course, Apple doesn't want to do it. But the power, the default is so huge that I don't think they're going to suffer so much from it.

15:49We'll see you next time. 818417. Parles-tu français? Hablas espanol? Parli italiano? If you've used Babbel, you would. Babbel's conversation-based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55 % off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com slash acast. Spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash acast. Rules and restrictions may apply.

16:32Patrick Beja: Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad, and I want to let you know that if you want the newest and hottest beauty products, you have to go to Sephora. I'm obsessed with the One Size Liquid Blotting Paper Spray. It's the first of its kind blotting spray that mattifies for up to eight hours. It's unreal. There's also the Summer Friday Shade Drops SPF 50, which basically lives in my bag at this point. Oh, and the Kayali Eden Plush Pear smells so good. It's sweet, warm, and addictive. Like, people literally stop me and ask what perfume I'm wearing, which you know I love. So if you want the makeup, skincare, hair, and fragrance products everyone's about to be obsessed with, shop only at Sephora.

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18:39So I think that's a really good defense of the DMA. And for anybody who's out there thinking like, well, hold on, is that really a monopoly? Don't get too semantic about it. Gatekeeper is the language they use in the DMA. But I think you made a really good argument for what the DMA is trying to achieve is an open marketplace is a competitive open marketplace. uh let's talk a little bit though about whether siri ai is a gatekeeper platform uh because i think the eu has decided it is and probably most people will agree that it is uh because they said you said siri ai siri ai is not a gatekeeper platform the iphone is ios actually that's that's not the case.

19:23Apple has an exemption for Messenger, for Maps, and for ads because those three platforms are not considered gatekeeper platforms, even though they run on iOS. So there's precedent for the EU to say, oh, this product that you offer Apple is not a gatekeeper. You don't have enough people in the EU using iMessage. We're not going to make you do interoperability with it uh and so i think it's a fair assumption to think if siri ai launches it will be a gatekeeper platform uh but i think it's worth acknowledging that part of the dma that that the eu is saying we think siri ai will be a gatekeeper platform which might sound laughable to people who are using siri right now because they're like well chat gpt claude uh gemini they They all are much more useful to me than Siri.

20:15Right. But so I think in the case of those other services like maps and messages, iOS is the gatekeeper and those services are associated with it. And maybe they could be called gatekeepers as well as individual services. I don't know that that's how the DMA sees it. I think the DMA looks at the platform, looks at messages as a platform. As a platform. i i understand this and a lot of people have been saying oh but you you apply it to ios and not not to mac os why would you not and obviously mac os is not the dominant platform it's not as dominant yeah yeah and and it's quite possible that the eu i don't know the eu's reasoning but it's quite possible the eu sees siri ai as essential to ios because it is so woven into the operating that they're like well if ios is a dominant platform then siri ai has to well and siri is the dominant assistant on iOS, like it is the default one.

21:15I think there's... That's where I go back to, like, just because it's the default doesn't make it the dominant platform. There's a lot of restrictions imposed on WhatsApp, for example, you know, which is considered a dominant... Exactly. Including, interestingly, there's interoperability forced into WhatsApp between other you know messaging platforms and when meta included meta ai in whatsapp the eu demanded that other ais could be used in the same way within meta within whatsapp so that's very similar to yeah to the siri ai in ios because it's part kind of yeah the thing is every one of those cases is a little bit different and you could argue oh well this is not exactly the same thing as this I think anyone would agree, I would guess most people would agree that in the case of Siri on iOS, the day Apple includes it as the default chatbot, functional functioning chatbot in the same way, in the same ballpark as the other chatbots we know, and only it has access to your semantic index and access to app actions, app intents.

22:37it becomes immediately like the most used platform, the most used... If it's good. I mean, it really just... It's not about the access. It's about what it does with it. It seems like the reviews are very positive. So I think you're right. I think it does. You know, there is a trauma in Europe, which I think you'll easily understand. It's the trauma of the internet. um we absolutely definitely missed the train of the internet right we we do not have any significantly dominant uh platform or company in the internet on the you know on the internet tech boom era y 'all y 'all discount spotify but yeah yeah there there's a couple i guess you know even in ai you could say mistral is part of the but you know there there are no google Apple, you know, those companies.

23:34And so we look at these things, I think, very carefully, and we want to make sure that competition can happen. And I guess the EU, we don't know the intricate details of the legal reasoning, but I think the EU came to the conclusion, well, if Siri is allowed to be the only AI on iOS that has access to all of these specific APIs and functionalities and indexes, then it's game over, right? No one else is going to be able to compete there. And there's a couple of things I want. I think that's a fair argument. You can disagree with it, but I don't think you can say it is. I wouldn't state it as strongly.

24:15That's the only thing I'd differ on. I think you're right that there's a very good chance it becomes a dominant platform. I think you could argue it's not yet and maybe they should wait, But I don't think anyone doubts that Siri AI will become the thing that iOS users use. And the thing is, if you wait, it's often too late. You know, it's very difficult to undo. I didn't say always. That's why I only breathed in and didn't say. But, you know, Google is very difficult to unseat as the dominant search engine. even when it became, I don't know if we can say, an SFI to the point that it did. It was that Chrome is the same story.

25:00Windows is the same story. They're all very difficult to answer. I'm not saying it's impossible, but something drastic has to happen in order for those to be unseated. And in this case, it's not even about the platform itself. It's about the way the company that owns the platform leverages that dominance to, again, impose another service that is linked to that.

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26:38Let's acknowledge that you can reasonably disagree with Patrick on whether you think Siri AI should be treated more like messages or maps. But I think even if you reasonably disagree, you can see his point. So let's assume Siri AI is going to be something that should qualify as a gatekeeper under the DMA. I was going to move us from that discussion to what should Apple do about it? Because it does seem like this is a more severe disagreement than Apple has had with the EU in the past? It seems so. About the takeaway, I just want to mention that the thing I would like people to take away from this conversation is the intent of the DMA.

27:22You can disagree where it applies, you know, if it's okay to apply it here or there. But I think as a whole, the tech industry is dominated by a few actors. And I think most people, again, would agree that, yeah, there is some you know dominance there for yeah most basic so what do we do so yeah well that's the big question um i think in the case of what apple is what's going to happen for syria let's let's go there um first of all yes it is a um in like a risky move for privacy for um people who would decide to trust other companies with their very private data. Absolutely true. You know, I would guess that Google or OpenAI or whoever would be scared enough to treat that data carefully.

28:21But once you open it and you say any AI company can, you know, access to all of those, it can be tricky and you can get your users in troubling ways. Arguably, they have to follow the EU rules as well, and therefore we'd get in trouble. But it's again, maybe Apple's saying the same thing the EU is saying. Let's stop that before it becomes a problem. And I think Apple's argument is extremely reasonable. But I would argue, yes, it is dangerous, but you can give access to your contacts on your phone. You can give access to any app, to your photos, your calendar. You know, it's not like those pieces of data are so sacred to Apple that they don't allow apps to get.

29:08So it's not messages. It's not email. I think those are the two main ones that wouldn't be already accessible to any app with a confirmation for the user. There's also the issue of the agentic part. So taking action on different apps or, you know, that is also not present today. So, of course, it is more of a risk for users. But with a disclaimer, you know, at the moment, you can install a third-party app store. You can install apps from the web, stuff like that. You can install Gemini. You can install ChatGPT. You can install Cloud. They just don't have the same access. Yes. And arguably, without the same access, they're not as useful.

29:49but so what I think is going to happen is Apple is making a big deal and we get back to the beginning of our conversation a big deal about this but the reality is that Siri AI is not ready specifically for Europe it's not ready period but it's not ready for Europe it doesn't exist in other languages than English and it's still going to be in beta when it launches in the US, or I mean in the world, it's still going to be in beta in English only. And two years ago, Apple did maybe with less intensity, the exact same, it launched the exact same media circus about Apple intelligence. And we specifically did not have access to it when it launched.

30:36The fact that it was underwhelming is irrelevant here. We also in the EU did not have access to it when it launched in beta and magically that's what i predicted by the way at the time magically around april or may when it ended up being ready it ended up being accessible in the eu as well i would be incredibly surprised if apple um decided to cut itself away from the eu market out of its ethical stance about this. I think Apple's ethics have been shown to be flexible at times, maybe even more recently. But in this case, I think it is absurd to think that Apple will say, we will not do AI in the EU and leave that market to other actors in that industry.

31:36So I think my prediction is by the time the French, German, Italian, Spanish versions of Siri AI are available and ready, it will launch in the EU and it will find a way to work with the EU Commission, possibly with this mysterious, what's it called? Trusted system agent. Trusted agent. Right. Trusted system agent that we have no technical detail on. how does it it would be awesome if they manage to find a way to treat your personal data safely enough trustedly enough to give it to other um ai companies with you being able to trust them that would be great i think that's what apple's saying they proposed in january to the eu and the The EU says...

32:29To roll it out over 18 months, right? They didn't say we will have this ready when we launch. And maybe that's the only sticking point. Yeah, it seems like the way I read it, that's what it... And what's really interesting and funny is that a lot of the things that are happening in the EU in that area, in that, you know, industry and domain and area, are initially reviled by people in the US. and a few months after that once it's established i see a lot more you know it's not everyone but a lot more comment about oh they get this in the eu it would be cool to have here you know it would be like why do they get this and we don't kind of thing and if they have a fantastic trusted agent system AI thing that allows you to use any AI agent on your phone it's trusted if they manage to make it trusted awesome it says trusted right in the name yeah it's Apple so anyway that is my prediction by the time it's ready in other languages it will launch in the EU I think that's real that's probably accurate I'm gonna I'm gonna concur I'm gonna join your your prediction you'll get all the credit but i'll say like yeah i thought patrick was right too uh because that is the way these things play out and i think you really identified that the 18 month period because rignier mentioned the 18 month period he took it as they didn't want to comply for 18 months apple said no we were going to slowly roll out but that's just two different ways of spinning the same thing which is we wanted a year and a half uh where we were alone on the platform and the eu didn't want to give it to them uh so it is not ready you know maybe they are developing it and it's not ready we don't know what it is we don't know how it works we don't know what rolling it out over 18 months we don't know what a trusted system agent means you know what kind of access it gives uh because it's not impossible to create a system like private cloud compute that runs on your device and that that's what this sounds like to me and i'm just guessing when i say that but private cloud compute says we will take your query we'll send it to a server we'll will end-to-end encrypt it, will delete it as soon as it's gone, and we'll have third parties audit it to make sure that there's no trace of that and it can't be used in Apple or anybody else ever knows what your query or result were.

34:50You could do that on device with these agents, right? And so if they're going to do something similar to that, granted, they don't have control over what the actual end product does, but again, that end product is also under EU regulations, then I could see something working like that. And you're probably right, Patrick, it's probably that they don't have it ready to launch now and said, well, we'd like to launch Siri AI now, give us an 18-month grace period. And you said no. Yeah. And, you know, Apple does have some control about on how they implement those things. You know, there are, in the case of third-party app stores or even web installable apps that I mentioned, those apps and app stores have to be notarized at Apple, right?

35:35It can't just be any app that you launch, they need to be registered with Apple in order for Apple to make sure that, you know, it's not just any old, you know, hacker that gets you to install everything. And the EU was fine with that. It seems that was negotiation, but they were fine with that. So maybe there's a, there are going to be conditions on AI companies who on how they can install an AI chatbot. Maybe it's going to be, you know, you have to treat the data in a very private, anonymized way in this way that we develop for you. And it's possible. I would love to learn more about this. This definitely feels like and I have I think that about most of these kinds of situations that they feel like public negotiation, where both sides are going to come to an agreement, but they're really trying to pull that agreement as close to their ideal situation as possible.

36:27And when you get these big public disagreements, that's, that's a way of showing the other side you're serious and trying to get them to you know concede a few more things i yeah i think i would say the same thing you are saying in a slightly different way i would say that apple is weaponizing um this their uh the fact that siri ai is not ready to go and they're using it in that negotiation to be very vocal about the EU. Because of course, you know, in all of this, Apple is in its role when it says we don't want to do it. Of course they don't want to do it. Of course, they're not going to willingly give an advantage to a competitor, right?

37:15And so this is something they don't want to do. They probably think they're going to have to do it at some point. in some way, but now Siri is not ready. Again, very similar to what happened with Apple Intelligence two years ago. It was not ready, and they were like, we'd love to bring it to the EU. Oh, but the EU Commission is saying we can't because it's mind-blowing that it's the exact same playbook. And again, in those conversations and analyses that I've seen by tech journalists from all over, no one has mentioned the fact that they did the exact same thing with the same language, you know, language point game plan about Apple intelligence two years ago.

37:59Yeah. So because because the headline Apple does same thing again, expect same result doesn't click. You don't get people to read that story. I do. The only thing I'll add right before we wrap up is that I do think Apple in this case legitimately wants to protect privacy and security. and that that is the main motivation for trying to create a trusted system agent and all of that and i don't mean that oh apple is pure of heart i mean that is a very compelling part of their marketing message to get you as a customer uh and they need to protect that uh so i think that is part of this i'll go one further um i think they uh are right to want to protect your privacy and your security as i said i think this is absolutely the right move if only they didn't have so much power in that space you know yeah it's it's and they gained that power arguably because they were designing the things they are designing in a very apple way but alas they have a monopoly i will however have had a tiny little caveat yes they care about your privacy very very much but also again i don't think they love the idea of opening their system willingly to competitors right you have that is true but this is what and and i think that also stings a little bit right maybe at least as much as wanting to protect your privacy it's like we built this platform from nothing we were a tiny computer company we had this genius idea of the iphone and continuously works continuously worked on it until it became dominant we shouldn't have to open it to anyone else and I completely understand and agree except again well Patrick Beja you open your platform all the time to everyone to access where can people find more of what you do I do tech and gaming shows in French which you will find links to at notpatrick.com if you want to learn French, for example, know a little bit and want to hear about the topic you're familiar with.

40:10I also do The Phileas Club, which is also linked on notpatrick.com, which is a small little show where we get letters from people from different parts of the world every couple of weeks, and they tell us about what's happening in their corner of the world. And it's, I feel a very interesting and fun show to listen to, to broaden your horizons of it yeah so that's my yeah i'm a big fan of the phileas club as well patrick thank you so much uh for bringing this perspective to us as always my friend i really appreciate it thank you very much tom for having me and thank you folks for being a subscribers and patrons and supporters of the show that allow us to do this uh you can find out more about what we do at dailytechnewsshow.com and support us directly patreon.com slash dtns talk to you on monday we're gonna have justin robert Young talking about that whole anthropic thing with the U.S.

41:01government. The DTNS family of podcasts, helping each other understand. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

41:17Patrick Beja: Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad, and I want to let you know that if you want the newest and hottest beauty products, you have to go to Sephora. I'm obsessed with the One Size Liquid Blotting Paper Spray. It's the first of its kind blotting spray that mattifies for up to eight hours. It's unreal. There's also the Summer Friday Shade Drops SPF 50, which basically lives in my bag at this point. Oh, and the Kay Alley Eden Plush Pear smells so good. It's sweet, warm, and addictive. Like, people literally stop me and ask what perfume I'm wearing, which you know I love. So if you want the makeup, skincare, hair, and fragrance products everyone's about to be obsessed with, shop only at Sephora.

41:56The 2026 FIFA World Cup meal at McDonald's is underway with one of nine legendary cups in the lineup. Christian Pulisic, David Beckham, Laminio Mal, Ronaldinho, Thierry Henry, Son Hyung-min, Alfonso Davies, Santee Jimenez. And between the posts, it's Grimace. Get one of nine collectible cups with a FIFA World Cup meal. At participating McDonald's for a limited time. While supplies last, all rights reserved. of 2026 McDonald's at FIFA World Cup 2026.