Why the President Wants Intel’s CEO to Resign DTNSB 5078

0:00This episode is brought to you by Capital One. Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi-agentic AI. They already deployed one. It's called Chat Concierge and it's simplifying car shopping. Using self-reflection and layered reasoning with live API checks, it doesn't just help buyers find a car they love. It helps schedule a test drive, get pre-approved for financing, and estimate trade-in value. Advanced, intuitive, and deployed. That's how they stack. That's technology at Capital One.

0:30Huyen Tue Dao: Your team just added its 67th AI tool and also your 67th security blind spot. The good news? The Vanta agent works like a GRC engineer in the background, finding every app your team uses, scoring the risk, and drafting fixes for you. Vanta is the platform used by over 16 ,000 fast-moving companies like Ramp, Cursor, and Harvey, who are shaping the future with AI and staying ahead of AI risk. Get started at Vanta.com. Hi, this is Paige from Giggly Squad, and today's episode is brought to you by McDonald's. Honestly, Caesar sauce and a Diet Coke at McDonald's might be the perfect girl dinner. And McCrispy strips dipped in Caesar sauce, no notes.

1:09Right now at participating McDonald's, the$2.99 Caesar snack wrap is making me rethink my entire go-to order. Caesar sauce is at participating McDonald's for a limited time, so go try it before it's gone. Prices and participation may vary. This episode is sponsored by Morning Brew Daily. If you're anything like me, you want to stay informed about what's happening in business and finance, but you also don't have an hour every morning to sift through headlines. Morning Brew Daily is the go-to business news podcast for millions of people. It's a daily business news podcast that's a quick, fun, and easy way to start your day.

1:46Whether it's the latest in tech, markets, or the trends shaping the economy, the show breaks it all down in a way that's clear, engaging, and actually enjoyable to listen to. Hosts Neil Freiman and Toby Howell make the show feel like you're catching up with two friends while giving you the context you need to feel smarter and more confident throughout your day. New episodes drop every weekday wherever you get your podcasts. Tune into Morning Brew Daily wherever you get your podcasts.

2:13Huyen Tue Dao: This is the Daily Tech News for August 8th, 2025. You know what we do. We tell you what you need to know, follow up in context to try to help each other understand all this crazy stuff. Well, today we explain why the president of the United States is calling for Intel CEO to resign. Yeah, we touched on it yesterday, but there's a whole lot more we figured out. I'm Tom Merritt. I'm Wintwet Dow. Let's start with what you need to know with the big story. All right, Gwen, this is going to be long. so like feel free to pepper me with questions uh and and clarifications as we go uh after the president of the united states called for his resignation thursday intel ceo lip bhutan told employees and here's a quote from the message there's been a lot of misinformation circulating about my past roles i wanted to be absolutely clear i have always operated within the highest legal and ethical standards he also said we are engaging with the administration to address the matters that have been raised and ensure they have the facts.

3:16Huyen Tue Dao: Now, as we mentioned yesterday, earlier in the week, U.S. Senator Tom Cotton had sent a letter to Intel's board expressing concern about Ton and asking whether he had divested himself of previous investments in China. Now, here are the two big areas of concern. All right, let's dig in. You ready? Yeah. In the 1980s, Tan helped found Walden International, which invested in more than 600 companies, and 100 of those were in China. A lot of those were semiconductor companies, including SMIC. SMIC has been in the news for being the standard bearer for domestic chip developments now that China has been cut off by the United States from the rest of the world's chip developments.

4:01Huyen Tue Dao: And Tan served as a board member on SMIC until 2018. That was two years before SMIC was added to the U.S. entity list, restricting experts to it. So he wasn't on the board of SMIC when it got restricted. All right. Ton agreed to divest his Walden holdings when he took over as Intel CEO, but he is still chairman of its board. Okay. Sorry. So can we start? So just to be clear, like usually when someone like in Lip Bhutan's position needs to divest, it's purely from a financial stake and not necessarily from a participatory, if that's like the right word for it. That seems to be the case and probably why Senator Cotton is like, I have questions.

4:48Huyen Tue Dao: Okay. Also, Walden has had questions before a couple of years ago, 2023, the House Select Committee on the Chinese Communist Party. the U.S. House Select Committee on the Chinese Communist Party sent Walden a letter expressing concerns about Walden's investments in China. And Walden has scaled back its Chinese investments. Walden doesn't have a lot of investments. Supposedly, Tan has divested himself, but the reporting is saying we can't confirm that, right? He said he has, but we can't confirm it. All right. That brings us to the second concern and probably the bigger one. And Ton joined the board of a chip design company called Cadence Designs in 2004 and became CEO of that company in 2008.

5:33Huyen Tue Dao: He was CEO of Cadence from 2008 until 2021. He stepped down as chairman of the board of Cadence in 2023. So there was some overlap between him joining Intel's board in 2022 and him stepping down at Cadence in 2023. He became CEO of Intel on March 12th of this year. So he hasn't been CEO of Intel while being on Cadence, but there was a year there where he was on both boards. Is that in and of itself an issue? Yeah, that's really not what's at issue there, but it's just for the timeline. Okay, so just understanding where he was and what interest he might have had in one company. Okay, my bad. Yeah.

6:12Huyen Tue Dao: Okay, cool. However, it is good to know that he was out of Cadence by 2023. He stopped being CEO in 2021. Remember that date? And he left Cadence Design in 2023. And that's all notable because on July 28th this year, Cadence pleaded guilty. Okay, this is not a like, he said, she said. They pleaded guilty to violating U.S. export controls. Here's what they pleaded guilty to. Their employees sold semiconductor design tools to an entity that was known as CSCC in Cadence's books, but was actually an alias for China's National University of Defense Technology, or NUDT, which is operated by the Chinese military.

7:06Huyen Tue Dao: Okay? Okay. Not good. Now, from NUDT going on the U.S. entity list in February 2015 until April 2021, while Tan was still CEO, there were employees at Cadence selling things to that company. Uh, that university was added to the U.S. entity list, quote, due to its use of U.S. origin components to produce supercomputers believed to support nuclear explosive simulation and military simulation activities. Okay. So what they're, what they're concerned with is we don't want to make it easier for them to explore nuclear bombs. Yeah. However, the U.S. Department of Justice statement on the guilty plea says that, and I'm going to quote from this again, according to Cadence's admissions and court documents, employees of Cadence China did not disclose to and or concealed from other Cadence personnel, including Cadence's export compliance personnel, that exports to CSCC were in fact intended for delivery to NUDT and or the PRC military.

8:18Okay, my bad. I actually can't parse that sentence in my head. So they did. So did they hide it or they not hide it, as I guess in women's work?

8:24Huyen Tue Dao: Employees did not disclose and concealed from the export compliance personnel at Cadence. That's the key part. Okay, so they did. They did conceal it. Okay. So there were employees in China saying, let's keep selling to NUDT. We'll call it CSCC and we'll hide it from people so they don't know that's what that is. Okay. So reading that, it seems safe to assume that they were doing this not at their own at their own will for their own benefit employees right rogue employees so not this is not as a strategic while ton was ceo we so yeah but what the justice department is saying is we don't have any evidence that anyone including ton knew anything about it and that's why cadence is pleading guilty they're like yeah our employees did that we see that yeah okay cool uh now there are other facts to consider besides the cadence thing now that we've got that figured out.

9:15Huyen Tue Dao: Intel has also delayed plans to build new facilities in Ohio. That has led Ohio Senator Bernie Moreno to also call for Tawn to resign. Wall Street Journal ran a story on Friday about tensions between Tawn and the Intel board of directors. The board has publicly supported Tawn in the face of the allegations, but you know, there could be some behind the scenes stuff. So could the real thing that angers the president be that Intel's dragging its heels on building these new plants while other tech companies are promising to increase investments and maybe Intel's board helping knife them in the back, right?

9:48Mm-hmm.

9:49Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah. No. Okay. Here's why that doesn't quite wash. Although I shouldn't say no flat out, but Intel board chairman Frank Urie drew up plans earlier this year before Ton took over as CEO for Intel to exit the foundry business altogether. other. That's the business that makes the chips and spin it out as a separate business unit with stakes sold to others. Now, some of those stakes were going to be sold to Nvidia and Amazon, which are American companies, but they were talking about TSMC possibly buying a stake too. That's Taiwanese company. And Tan has argued that Intel should keep its foundry business because it's essential in his opinion, not only to Intel, but also the security of Intel supply chains.

10:31Huyen Tue Dao: Tan has been saying, no, don't sell the foundry business. We need to keep that and we need to keep it under our control and in the United States. Now, the journal says Yiri was among the board members who pushed back investments in U.S. foundries until 2026. So it's Yiri that is the one that's delaying the funding of those Ohio factories, or at least him and other board members. And the journal also says Intel wanted to buy an AI company that would put it closer to NVIDIA and AMD in parity in chip making for the AI, but the board also delayed that as well. Ton also had had recent meetings with U.S.

11:07Huyen Tue Dao: Commerce Secretary Howard Lucknick that seemed to be going well. Those indicated that the government would support Intel if it landed bigger customers like Apple. So it doesn't feel like Ton would be the person you would blame for the foundry stuff. It doesn't feel like Ton is going to get knifed by the board if the board is the one doing that stuff and the board is publicly supporting him. So let me submit to you one last suspect. The journal also notes that Intel's previous CEO, Pat Gelsinger, the guy who had to step down, had a friendly relationship with U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance and still has a friendly relationship with U.S.

11:51Huyen Tue Dao: Vice President J.D. Vance. And Tan resigned from the Intel board in August 2024 temporarily in a dispute over how Gelsinger was running the business. So maybe those two don't like each other. And maybe Gelsinger's whipspring in somebody's ear like, hey, you know what? This guy with his Chinese stuff, I don't know. You might want to look into that. Oh, my gosh. Okay. That's a lot. It is a lot. But, I mean, I think I agree, especially the second point is interesting just because I think it's easy to point, especially with the T, where the tariff word going around all day and kind of like the maneuvering going on.

12:23It would be easy to, I guess, assume that a lot of this does have to do with investment in American boundaries, which I suppose is like a different argument and, you know, has some merit somewhere for sure. So that's really interesting that it almost seems like Tan wouldn't be the person that you'd want to attack from if that was your goal. So it really seems like something else. And I don't the the thing with cadence design systems does seem, you know, legitimately serious and a concern. Like if we're on the premise that, yeah, we need to be very careful about, I mean, yes, we do in fact have to be very careful about American technology getting into hands for nefarious purposes.

13:03Like that seems like a given. It just, it's a lot to untangle. But like, yeah, it doesn't, I guess to give, like it doesn't seem that the delay in American investment would be a legitimate reason to do this. if anything like the first one for security purposes I guess that then we're into like who knew what at what time and how culpable is like how culpable is an individual executive and how like I guess what what are the standards for behavior in that case when something like that does happen especially something that is like let's let's yeah fairly enough very very serious or is it something more along the lines of almost individual politicking and I don't wow wow, that's a lot.

13:48Huyen Tue Dao: And the other thing is, uh, I, I doubt the president really expects him to resign, uh, but he's going to get something out of him. Yeah. It really feels like a pressure, like, like, like, like a pressure move because like, I, as I understand from the statement given, it was very vague. Um, and it, it was very vague. Like it just, it was like a very vague statement. It was one of those, like, you know, I'm mad and I'm going to say a thing. Yes. And so putting all those pieces together, here's my best guess. OK, this is just a guess. I don't know anything. The combination of Intel dragging its feet on the factories when everybody else is announcing big investments irritates.

14:29Huyen Tue Dao: Frank Urie wouldn't be the person to whisper in anybody's ear, go after Tan, because Urie is actually the one dragging his heels on the foundries. And if Ton gets leverage to be like, hey, the president wants this, we got to increase our investments, then Yeri loses. But Gelsinger could be the guy who's like, I want to get my old job back or I have a friend who could take this job. Let me see if I can bring him down. It doesn't seem like Gelsinger to do that, though. That's the one part I get hung up on is it just doesn't quite fit the pattern. But it wouldn't be Yeri. Maybe there's some other person in this equation that we're missing.

15:07Huyen Tue Dao: But somebody could definitely say like, hey, look at all this stuff with Cadence. Look at all this stuff with Walden. And then look at the fact that Intel is not building factories. What's up with that guy? And get the president's ire raised about that. That's kind of as much as we know. Yeah. I mean, would the purpose of this be to, is it more of on a small scale? hey, let's, is it a personal, personal, either personal profit thing as in, yeah, someone wants the job or is just not happy with Liputan being, being, being there, or is it more of a broader, hey, like we want to, for whatever our motives are, again, keep pushing for American investment and let's get everybody on board to kind of contribute to a larger, a larger kind of movement, like a larger plan that we have.

16:05So that's.

16:06Huyen Tue Dao: And that, you know, who knows, it could be competitors that, that, you know, want to keep Intel down, although Intel's pretty down right now. Yeah. It seems mean. Um, yeah, that's, it, it all just seems like pieces, just moving pieces on a board back and forth and seeing if someone falls down or someone, you know, moves forward as, as like, just, that's just me. That's just my very normal person, uh, who, who funnily enough actually used cadence design software in school for semiconductor study. Uh, yeah, just anyway, that's just weird. Um, yeah. At least we have a better understanding of the pieces on the board and hopefully people have less of a like, what is this about?

16:52Huyen Tue Dao: Like you can kind of see why possibly. Yeah. And that maybe it's not just a person yelling at windmills, like solely that there is some maneuvering going on here that might be worth paying attention to or understanding it in a little more nuanced way than just who's the next person on the chopping block. Yeah. It's not just yelling at a cloud. well that actually was really helpful to me i really appreciate that because i it was no i know it was like it's it i think especially since we have so many stories like this you get a little bit overwhelmed on what's actually going on so i know that even as a co-host the show has helped me better understand so i appreciate that thanks all right well that's the mission of dts and dts is made possible by you the listener we want to take time on this friday to thank john atwood pat and mike cortez Yay!

18:10In Google Docs, you stay in control reviewing the draft and deciding what moves forward. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode. Available on Plus and Pro plans. This episode is brought to you by Capital One. Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi-agentic AI. They already deployed one. It's called Chat Concierge and it's simplifying car shopping. Using self-reflection and layered reasoning with live API checks, it doesn't just help buyers find a car they love. It helps schedule a test drive, get pre-approved for financing, and estimate trade-in value.

18:51Advanced, intuitive, and deployed. That's how they stack. That's technology at Capital One. Back to school is busy enough. The last thing you need is shopping that makes it harder. Whether you're moving into a dorm, your first apartment, or just getting organized for the semester, Wayfair makes it easy to get everything you need in one place. Furniture, bedding, storage, decor, study essentials, all at prices you'll love. With fast shipping before move-in day. Get everything you need for back-to-school season. Shop wayfair.com today. Wayfair, every style, every home. Hey guys, it's Drew Alfuallo from the comment section.

19:30Listen, it's time to stop settling for hair products that just don't work. With all the prestige brands at Sephora, upgrading your routine is easy. If your hair needs repair, they've got the K18 Leave-In Molecular Repair Hair Mask. If you're trying to level up your wash day, the Kerastase Elixir All-Time Hair Oil leaves your hair looking ridiculously shiny without feeling heavy. And if you're into that glossy, healthy hair vibe, the Gisu Honey Infused Hair Oil is a must-have. Also, Sephora makes it super convenient with free shipping and same-day delivery. Shop hair at Sephora and give your hair the upgrade it's been waiting for.

20:05Summer's supposed to be the easy season. So why are so many people quietly Googling a therapist between summer Fridays? Because more daylight doesn't fix the hard stuff. Sometimes it just turns the volume up. Grow does therapy differently. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. The therapist you want takes your insurance on Grow. Grow accepts over 125 insurance plans.

20:42Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com slash ACAST today to get started. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

21:07Huyen Tue Dao: All right, there is more we need to know today. Let's get to the briefs. All right, 9to5Mac reports that Apple told it that chat GPT integration with Apple Intelligence will use GPT-5 with iOS 26, iPadOS 26, and MacOS Tahoe 26. Those are supposed to arrive for all users next month. No details on when they might show up in the betas of those operating systems. Yeah, I'm going to keep my eye out for that. But it makes sense. I would expect that to happen. So it's good to know it will. OpenVibe is an app that I use on Android and iOS that lets you follow and post to multiple social networks at once, including Blue Sky, Threads, Mastodon, and Noster.

21:48Huyen Tue Dao: And starting now, you can also add RSS feeds. So your favorite feeds will show up either in the combined timeline if you want or next to posts from those other platforms in a dedicated RSS feed. If you're like, I don't want them mixed, I want to see them separately. Or you can create a custom feed where you mix and match. You can add them one by one or even import an OPML file from another newsreader. I actually did use OpenVibe for a minute when I was kind of hot on Mastodon. I might have to open that back up. That's cool. When I know I want to post to multiple places at once, OpenVibe is the first place I go.

22:21Huyen Tue Dao: And I like browsing through because it gives me everything it wants. Yeah. And I think it's a good option if you're not someone who really needs like a paid, a paid service, like Buffer or something like that. You just want it as like a normal person. Hashtag funny years, but a normal person. Well, the Google Finance web app is getting a redesign that includes a chat bot that can answer finance questions. There are also chart redesigns, a live news feed, and the addition of broader market data, including cryptocurrencies. If you don't like the new design, a toggle will be available to revert back.

22:51Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah, which a lot of people want to revert back from things. So that's a good choice. Multiple users of Gemini have reported the chatbot giving responses that would be given by someone with low self-esteem, like, I am a fool. I have made so many mistakes that I can no longer be trusted, is actually one of the less dramatic examples that you can read. Google's product lead for AI studio, Logan Kilpatrick, called it, quote, an annoying infinite looping bug and that the company is fixing it. Oh, I, oh, I, sorry. I'm just kind of feeling kind of bad for the AI a little bit. Okay. All right. Well, leaker Evan Blass has done it again.

23:32He has obtained a marketing material that looks like what Google has prepared for the upcoming Pixel Watch 4 with Gemini. The tagline is precision crafted, performance ready. The new charger is officially called the Quick Charge Dock and is 25 % faster than before.

23:48Huyen Tue Dao: We'll see that soon. Thanks to Motang for tipping us off to this one in our subreddit. Germany's Einhaus Group was targeted by ransomware in March 2023, paid a fee of about$230 ,000 to the group to get its data back. However, the interruption to the service during the lockout was so bad that the company decided to go from 100 plus employees to eight and has now entered insolvency proceedings, which is the last step before liquidation. All right. And YouTube channel TechIt decided to literally test Samsung's Galaxy Z Fold 7 folding and unfolding it 200 ,000 times. Samsung said it should survive up to 500 ,000.

24:33The days-long live stream showed the phone rebooting every 6 ,000 to 10 ,000 folds. And at 46 ,000, it started to creak. At 75 ,000, a black liquid leaked from the hinge. And at 175 ,000, the speaker stopped working. However, after 200 ,000, the folding mechanism was smooth and it could still hold its position at any angle. So there's your silver lining.

24:58Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah, I like what the tech folks were saying is this shows that, you know, factory tests aren't the entire description of the lifetime, right? Like stuff like the speaker stopping working and software rebooting. He's like, those are things that won't show up if it says, yeah, it can fold and unfold 500 ,000 times without breaking, but there are other implications to this. And that was interesting to see. Yeah, I like that because, I mean, if you imagine like the chair demo in IKEA, it's a very like it's the hydraulic showing you how many like sit downs a chair can take. That's a very like artificial, even though it's impressive still, it's an artificial thing.

25:32When people do things, when people open and close the phone, it's not going to be a very consistent, nicely, evenly, you know, with even amount of force. It's going to be like a person uses it. So that was it would make a lot of sense.

25:42Huyen Tue Dao: A couple of interesting cryptocurrency stories. The U.S. president directed the U.S. Secretary of Labor to review guidance on what can be included in 401k retirement plans to pave the way for a wider selection of assets, particularly cryptocurrencies. Meanwhile, Chinese policymakers are telling local brokers in the mainland and Hong Kong to stop publishing research or holding seminars about stable coins. Stable coins are the ones that have to be tied to an asset. So usually it's a U.S. dollar and one coin equals one dollar. regulators in China are concerned about their use in fraud, which possible because, you know, they're less traceable, less centralized.

26:20Huyen Tue Dao: Also probably concerned about their use in making it easier to rely on the dollar as an international currency. All right. Well, Project Chrysalis won first place in the Project Hyperion design competition, where teams design hypothetical multi-generational ships for interstellar travel. Chrysalis would contain 2 ,400 people and their descendants on a 400-year trip to land on the planet Proxima Centauri B. People planning to join the journey must live for 70 to 80 years in Antarctica, meaning you won't go, but your children will. And the 36-mile-long ship includes layers with communal spaces, farms, gardens, homes, warehouses, and other shared facilities, each powered by nuclear fusion reactors.

27:05Huyen Tue Dao: This is one of those projects where you're not going to build it tomorrow, You need these kinds of designs to understand what it would take. So that's pretty cool. And the idea, the planning that would be involved of like, and would it even be fair to be like, okay, we're going to Antarctica because we want our children to get on this ship. Like, what if the children are like, hey, we haven't left yet. I'm out. I'm still here. Yeah. Can I just get us to here with the penguins? Or, you know, go back to Hawaii, which I've never seen. I'm still the 36 mile long ship. So I just, I mean, I know. So this actually obviously is, is a problem in like, how would you launch a 36 mile long ship?

27:47That's an,

27:47Huyen Tue Dao: you got to build it in orbit, right? Oh, that's fair. That's fair. That's fair. Oh, wow. I sent this one to Dr. Nikki. So we'll see if we can do a deeper dive on this a little later on. Cause I'm fascinated with this one as well. I love it. One last quick note. South Korea has delayed a decision Friday on Google's request to export map data. If you've ever been to South Korea, and I like going there, so I've been there a few times, you have to use Naver Maps because Google Maps just are limited in what they can do by the government. Naver is approved. This is all because they're technically still at war with North Korea.

28:21Huyen Tue Dao: And Google had requested like, come on, let us use the map data. And they were about to get it. And then South Korea held it up. And it seems to be held up as a bargaining chip in the country's negotiation with the US over tariffs. That is fascinating. I kind of just assumed that Google maps data was so ubiquitous, but that, as you explained, it makes so much sense. Yeah. You can only navigate by train, like you can use it to map your train trips, but no driving data. There's a lot of other data that's limited. So you end up using neighbor maps, which is good, I have to say, but not as foreign friendly, perhaps.

28:57Okay.

28:58Huyen Tue Dao: Well, folks, if you are looking for a gift for your coworker or colleague, we should mention, we've got a store, dailytechnewshow.com slash store. Pick up a mug. It has the DTNS logo right on it. There's a mouse pad we've got. It's got the DTNS logo on it. Lots of cool stuff in there. Go check it out. They're great gifts and great ways to support the show, dailytechnewshow.com slash store.

29:24This episode is brought to you by Capital One. Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi-agentic AI. They already deployed one. It's called Chat Concierge and it's simplifying car shopping. Using self-reflection and layered reasoning with live API checks, it doesn't just help buyers find a car they love. It helps schedule a test drive, get pre-approved for financing, and estimate trade-in value. Advanced, intuitive, and deployed. That's how they stack. That's technology at Capital One. Hey guys, it's Drew Afualo from the comment section. Listen, it's time to stop settling for hair products that just don't work.

30:01With all the prestige brands at Sephora, upgrading your routine is easy. If your hair needs repair, they've got the K18 Leave-In Molecular Repair Hair Mask. If you're trying to level up your wash day, the Kerastase Elixir All-Time Hair Oil leaves your hair looking ridiculously shiny without feeling heavy. And if you're into that glossy, healthy hair vibe, the Gisu honey infused hair oil is a must have. Also, Sephora makes it super convenient with free shipping and same day delivery. Shop hair at Sephora and give your hair the upgrade it's been waiting for.

30:34We end every episode of DTNS with some shared wisdom. Today, Larry has some thoughts on AI and coding.

30:42Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah. So he wrote, one thing I've noticed is that some of the coders on the show sound a bit resistant when it comes to discussions about AI and coding. I say this with a lot of empathy because it reminds me of something I experienced firsthand. Years ago, I was a trader at the Chicago Board of Trade in the Mercantile Exchange, right when electronic trading was starting to take over. The floor traders, myself included, were all adamant that electronic trading would never work. It couldn't possibly do what we did. Fast forward to now, there are almost no physical trading floors left. Everything's digital.

31:13Huyen Tue Dao: The people who adapted and learned how to trade electronically kept going while others got left behind. I think we're seeing a similar shift now with AI encoding. The coders who evolve, who learn to prompt well and use AI as a tool are going to have a big advantage. And I imagine that's what's making some people nervous. It's not that they don't see the potential, it's that they do. Anyway, just wanted to share that perspective. I still love the show. Everyone you have on is super knowledgeable. It's fun to listen to such high-level discussions from people who really know their stuff. I just couldn't help but notice the parallel with my past.

31:43Huyen Tue Dao: Thanks for everything you do, Larry. Okay. Well, a couple of things, Larry, that's actually a really good, interesting historical context. I used my first job out of college or actually in college was with NASDAQ, which is like the first, like solely electronic stock market. So that's a really interesting, I mean, I, I, I think I would understand that. Yeah. The switch over from like physical trading floors with people yelling at each other to electronic was a big shift, but I didn't realize that people kind of gave the same argument that we hear today that, oh, the computer can't do what I do.

32:11That is actually really cool context. And I mean, I, I, sorry, I don't disagree. And I think it's a really good point, Tom, to bring up that, and it's a good, I think, perspective setting that, you know, and we've talked about this before, that this, this is a very cyclical thing with tech, right? Where a new advancement comes and some people are reticent to adopt it either out of

32:38maybe being afraid that it's not as good as it says it is, or maybe an innate fear about what it means for them personally. So yeah, I absolutely don't disagree. And I think you are right that it's not going away. It is going to be a tool. And I think that anyone who totally dismisses it out of hand is doing themselves a disservice on many levels, if anything else, just to understand And, you know, to better understand the status of the tool, what it can actually do, and to take advantage of good use cases and to, if anything else, kind of help us find the best niche for it. And that's, I actually literally talked about this at a conference lately when someone asked my opinion about adoption is that I think it's actually really interesting because part of, a big part of what engineering is, is problem solving, but also finding the right solution to the right problem.

33:30And I think we should be thinking about the current generation and the current like kind of just tsunami of AI tools in that sense is like we need. OK, so there's a solution here and we need to find the right problem. My reticence is, you know, I try to temper it very much. And again, like you giving this example is, again, just a lesson to me just to make sure that I keep my eyes open. My reticence right now is that I worry that a lot of that, that, that this kind of seems like very on, on theme. I worry that AI is going to, let's say, let's say like kind of attack is not the right word, but I worry that AI is going to is, is kind of like, I'm trying to think of the right word, but like, I'm undermine undermine at least thank you yeah undermine I was like gonna make like a digging motion but like under undermine engineering and not because it's going to replace engineers per se or that our job is going to change but that I worry right now is that the speed that we're going at and specifically the type of tool and it's it's it's efficiency right now is going to undermine the core parts of what I think of as engineering which doesn't necessarily have to be coding or doing things by hand, but that's critical thinking and problem solving.

34:54Um, and I so worry that because of the fast adoption and because the AI is not perfect and that while vibe coding is a great thing, um, I, I have yet to see it help with like actual production levels. Like we talked, I think we talked on this show, like last week about repli and things like that, where it's not quite ready for that level. And so what I think is like, and this is not an unfamiliar story where an innovation happens, people push for it to be adopted. And then what happens is, is that there's going to be some casualties in like the adoption of what is eventually going to be the tools, the valid parts of this, right?

35:32The actual solution that we're looking to for our current problems. And my concern is that especially with this generation of AI and the way that it functions, that we're starting to turn our brains off. And so that is undermining engineering in my opinion, is that the critical thinking and problem solving. And I actually not worry too much about my job. Like I think if you have the experience and you have those skills, absolutely 100 % that AI, machine learning assistance will just help you fly, will help you do your job faster. Because yeah, there's a lot of stupid stuff I have to do that's very rote and not like what I should, like it's not the best use of my time every day.

36:09And it will make that better. What I'm really concerned about is, especially for people coming out now that don't have the experience, that don't have, that, that, that, that need more time or that can sharpen their critical thinking and problem solving skills, especially like for, for like very specific jobs, very specific domains. They're not going to get that chance just because already I'm seeing, we're seeing companies say like, Hey, well you, even if you were like, uh, interview applicants need to show that they use AI and they're even specifying like some percentage of the time. And so my concern is that, yes, we will be using these things.

36:42And we have been using these things for many years. Like we've used lots of like cogeneration tools for many years now, but the way that it works now and the way that, you know, the current interaction with it with prompts and kind of be more natural language, it's a good thing. But I think also we don't have the infrastructure and education in place to transfer people now from the reality of now to the future where everybody will not be necessarily coding and writing stuff out, but being able to interact and be able to direct an AI to do, you know, the, the, the rote stuff, the, the, the boring stuff, and actually let the person do the high level critical thinking and problem solving while letting the AI do the grunt work.

37:23We don't, I, my concern is like, we just don't have a good, a good transition to that. And so what's happening right? People are turning, turning their brains off, which is our whole job in my opinion.

37:32Huyen Tue Dao: Um, so that's what I'm worried about, but yeah, I, I have two thoughts to that. Uh, and we'll just go a little longer today. Yeah, my bad. I'm sorry. This is too good of a conversation. Okay. Uh, I, I think one, you know, there, there's often a confusion between, I don't like the tools as they are now versus I don't think they have potential. And I think when I hear you talk about it, you clearly say like, when I use these tools, I run into X problem. Right. And so that's something where it's like, don't confuse criticism of now with criticism of the future. But to your second point, which is like, will it undermine?

38:07Huyen Tue Dao: I think your and others concern about that is usually what stops that from being a problem, right? If you weren't concerned, then it could undermine that sort of thing because nobody would bother paying attention to it. But I think what usually happens is because you're concerned, you make sure like, OK, but we've got to teach people this part of it. We've got to teach people the critical thinking. And that usually ends up happening. And calculators don't cause everyone to be dumb about math. We decide to emphasize the importance of learning the concepts. And hopefully that's what happens this time around.

38:40I hope so. I do hope and I appreciate that. And I have run into several young folks who are resisting the pressure to adopt it and taking it upon themselves to get like, say young person, I feel like such an old person saying that, but like people who are in this situation are making moves to ready themselves. I just want to make sure that that's like a thing that a lot of people know that they have options for and that you don't have to feel the pressure to just prompt and not and maybe sacrifice some of the experience and some of the mistakes and trial and error that you need. But it is a really good reminder.

39:13I really appreciate it, Larry, because I think sometimes it's easy to get outraged or scared and kind of lose sight of the bigger picture. And so I really appreciate like and it's it does take folks like Larry and other friends of mine who have been like, hey, like slow down here. Let's not let's not get so outraged. And again, critical think think about the solutions and the problem. So I really appreciate it, Larry.

39:34Huyen Tue Dao: Yeah, thank you, Larry. Appreciate that. All right. Well, what are you thinking about? Do you have some insight into a story? Please share it with us. feedback at dailytechnewsshow.com. Yeah, big thanks to Larry for contributing to today's show. Thank you for being along for the Daily Tech News Show. You can keep us in business by becoming a patron. If you haven't checked it out, we got lots of cool stuff over there. Check it out, patreon.com slash DTNS. We'll talk to you soon.

40:04Huyen Tue Dao: This week's episodes of Daily Tech News Show Briefing were created by the following people, host producer and writer Tom Merritt, host and writer Jason Howell, co-host Rob Dunwood, co-host Jen Cutter, co-host Wen Tui Dao, producer Anthony Lemos, producer Roger Chang, editor Hammond Chamberlain, editor Victor Bognat, science correspondent Dr. Nikki Ackermans, social media producer and moderator Zoe Detterding, our mods, Beatmaster, W's Goddess One, BioCow, Captain Kipper, Steve Guadarama, Paul Reese, Matthew J. Stevens, a.k.a. Gadget Virtuoso, and J.D. Galloway. Modern video hosting by Dan Christensen.

40:38Huyen Tue Dao: Music provided by Martin Bell and Dan Luters. Art by Len Peralta. Acast ad support from Tatiana Matias. Patreon support from Bobby Wagner. Our guests this week included Ryan Whitwam and Andy Beach. And thanks to all the patrons who make the show possible.

40:56Huyen Tue Dao: This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this broker.

41:10Huyen Tue Dao: Any pickups, Hammond? Nice.

41:19This episode is brought to you by Capital One. Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi-agentic AI. They already deployed one. It's called Chat Concierge, and it's simplifying car shopping. Using self-reflection and layered reasoning with live API checks, it doesn't just help buyers find a car they love. It helps schedule a test drive, get pre-approved for financing, and estimate trade-in value. Advanced, intuitive, and deployed. That's how they stack. That's technology at Capital One. Back to school is busy enough. The last thing you need is shopping that makes it harder. Whether you're moving into a dorm, your first apartment, or just getting organized for the semester, Wayfair makes it easy to get everything you need in one place.

42:04Furniture, bedding, storage, decor, study essentials, all at prices you'll love with fast shipping before move-in day. Get everything you need for back-to-school season. Shop wayfair.com today. Wayfair, every style, every home.

42:31Thank you.