Your Definition of Technology is Too Narrow- DTNS Weekend

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2:47Welcome to the Daily Tech News Show Weekend Edition, gratefully provided to you by supporters of this show. On the weekend, we go into topics into a little bit more depth. I'm Dr. Nikki, the science correspondent for DTNS, and I am here with a very special guest to talk about the anthropology of tech. So welcome to the show, Dr. Jonathan Dombrowski. Full disclosure, also my partner, but good to have you here. It's good to be here. Thank you for having me, Nikki. Of course. So we're going to talk about the anthropology of technology. Would you like to remind the listeners how this topic came about?

3:24Sure. Yeah. So at Nerdtacular, there was a whole panel called Science vs. Technology. That I was on. That Nikki was on. And I was lucky enough to tag along to Nerdtacular this year. And so, you know, I heard all we were having discussions all about what technology is, what science is. And I kept putting my anthropology hat on. And I think you got probably tired of talking to me about about what anthropology has to say about technology. And so you're like, well, we'll just talk about it in a segment later. Something like that. Well, Tom also thought it was cool, so we made it all the way here. Yeah, so if you didn't realize, John is a professor and anthropologist.

4:14And I guess I'll just dive straight in and ask you, how would you define tech as an anthropologist? Clearly, it's different than how the casual iPhone user defines tech. Yeah, I think we have this kind of tendency to think about technology as we use it. Today we have what archaeologists might call recency bias. And so when we think about technology today, we think about like the latest iPhone or the latest computer or something like that. Right. We think about computers a lot or maybe we think about artificial intelligence. But when an anthropologist and specifically an archaeologist thinks about technology, we use a much broader kind of perspective to think about that.

4:55that spans millennia maybe. And so I think it's a really useful kind of thing to think about. It's a nice tool, if you will. And we'll get into these definitions to just for people to have in their back pocket and think about broadly. So what is that definition? Yeah. So to me, so I think one of the things that we always talk about, right, is that I'm always kind of doing, it's a tendency of mine, is I think about definitions really, really broadly. In science, there's this kind of like debate versus lumpers versus splitters. Yeah. And so I think I'm more of a lumper. And so what that means is I always think about a definition when it comes to definitions that capture like the whole thing that we're like talking about.

5:42And so for me, what technology is, there's basically kind of two things that it encompasses tools that humans use to achieve tasks. Right. So actual things beyond our body that humans use outside of our body, not fingernails or anything like that. And then it's also the knowledge that they use to produce those things. And those come together to create technology. Okay. So when you're thinking about this in your anthropological context, is there kind of an earliest technology? You know, the iPhone 1 of anthropology technology? Yeah, you know, so that this is hotly debated territory, right? Yeah, sorry.

6:28You know, so I don't I actually don't think that humans we talked about this at the science versus tech panel that actually it's not our our closest living relatives or ancestors that we evolved from chimps and bonobos. they actually use technology as well. And so we use that classic example of like sticks, using sticks to get ants out or something like that. Termites, I think, but yeah. Yeah, termites. And so, but other animals use technology as well. Otters have like their favorite rock, right? And they knock things like - I think we covered on the show, the cow that uses a broom to scratch her back.

7:10So animal technology, I guess, is the earlier form. Yeah. So for humans, we think about maybe fire as being one of the first. And then later, and that's not like Homo erectus and maybe even before. This is constantly, we're getting like the oldest use of fire papers that come out and these are always the big splashy ones. Yeah. Yeah. And then we also have a Shulian hand axes. Stone tool technology is probably some of the, you know, really when we think about objects that are being fashioned are those kinds of things. And these Acheulean hand axes are really interesting, really cool first kind of, you know, portable tool that we know of.

7:55And Homo erectus was likely making those. And we're going to put a link to a now defunct, unfortunately, it lost funding, anthropology magazine called Sapiens. And there is basically, yeah, look at that. Acheulean hand axe right there. And there's a little article that someone wrote, Stephen Nash, who is the I know I think he is the CEO and president of Archaeology Southwest, a nonprofit in Arizona. OK, so you gave some examples of like one that's really tangible. So this literal hand axe that you hold in your hand, I think people know maybe about Adoladals and like spears and so on as as technology and fire, which is more of a knowledge almost like, yes, it can be something tangible.

8:38but it's more than that. Are there other examples of tech in the anthropological world that people maybe wouldn't think of immediately as being considered tech? Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that came up in the panel was fire. What if fire isn't made, you know, it's just, you know, lightning strikes and there's fire. Is that technology? And so that's what my definition, which was so important about this, was that it's intentional. It's human, it's relative to humans, like technology and tools, right? So it's something that is made for a purpose. And so if a human starts a fire to cook food, that is technology, right?

9:17If I accidentally burn my house down, I don't know if I would call that fire technology unless I was trying to burn my house down, right? So this is, we're splitting hairs, but this is all the fun of science and thinking about these things. But other forms of technology that are really fascinating to think about are things like animals, right? So like the domestication itself as a form of technology, right? So dogs, that's something that came up that we talked about in the panel. Okay. So you mentioned dogs as a form of technology. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Like is our pet dog a technology or is it only technology when they're doing a job, like a herding dog or something?

9:57Yeah, me personally, I mean, maybe you'd have people disagree with me, but I think, you know, when we think about pets, companion animals is another term you'll see out there. It is a technology, right? We are fashioning a biological organism to help fill this role, right? To complete this job for us of feeling more whole and not so lonely, right? And so that's a pretty amazing thing when you think about, you know, tools to solve a problem. And there are histories of companion animals out there. Like this is a whole topic within archaeology and anthropology. It's a big deal. I mean, you know, we could think about dogs as like, you know, big pack animals and all this, which there's tons of literature about that too.

10:38But the companion side of this is really important. So, you know, one of the things with dogs is we thought, you know, one of the roles that they played initially is maybe as hunting and guarding for mobile humans, hunter-gatherers kind of early on, right? That's maybe why they're the first domesticated animal that we know of. So that's really important. But how animals get on the pathway, different pathways to domestication is a huge and lively area of research as well. So I can go more into that. Then biology gets involved, too. Oh, yeah. It's really fascinating. So you're here to hear first.

11:18Dogs are perhaps the most wholesome form of technology. you also mentioned knowledge and culture itself being considered a form of technology and i think this is where it gets a bit nebulous with yeah maybe the dtns listeners who are used to looking at the newest chip update so like can you format that in a in a way for our listeners yeah we think about you know these maybe non-tangible things as forms of technology as well and again i'm not trying to say that every single anthropologist would agree with this or archaeologists would agree with this, but generally, they'll write in their comments.

11:51Yeah, there's debate about this kind of stuff. So language itself as being a form of technology, right? It's something that's coming out of our, like away from our body that's being used to serve a purpose to communicate and solve this problem of we need to communicate to one another about tons of different things, how we do that in the structure of that language. There's a whole field of anthropology or subfield called linguistics. And this is how that one of the big areas of research there is called, we call it semiotics or meaning making, right? How people use words to make meanings that like these symbols, right?

12:29So this is, and how we achieve different tasks to do that. This is like the whole game of anthropology. So it's, it's really quite fascinating, but there's other things too, right? So when we think about how we, we, an archeologist would call it kind of social organization. And that's just a fancy word for how we organize ourselves within a society. Are we hierarchical or are we more decentralized? There's different ways of being human, right? So like, yeah, different forms of government within that are these things that solve problems. And it's a tool. And even though it's an idea and it's not an actual material thing, it's all something that we're agreeing on and we're treating like it's real, right?

13:12So it does It could be counted as a technology in and of itself. I think it's really important. Episode prep gets messy when research, Slack threads, and script trackers are all in different places. That's where ChatGPT work comes in. Give it the goal and connect to the tools where work happens, like apps and files, and it can help pull the pieces into a draft you can review without you having to re-explain the project at every step. For example, ChatGPT work can gather team feedback from Slack and use it to suggest updates to a project brief in Google Docs. You stay in control reviewing the draft and deciding what moves forward.

13:48Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode. Available on Plus and Pro plans. This episode is brought to you by Capital One. Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi-agentic AI. They already deployed one. It's called Chat Concierge and it's simplifying car shopping. Using self-reflection and layered reasoning with live API checks, it doesn't just help buyers find a car they love. It helps schedule a test drive, get pre-approved for financing, and estimate trade in value. Advanced, intuitive, and deployed. That's how they stack.

14:28That's technology at Capital One. Hey guys, it's Drew Afualo from the comment section. Listen, it's time to stop settling for hair products that just don't work. With all the prestige brands at Sephora, upgrading your routine is easy. If your hair needs repair, they've got the K18 Leave-In Molecular Repair Hair Mask. If you're trying to level up your wash day, the Kerastase Elixir All-Time Hair Oil leaves your hair looking ridiculously shiny without feeling heavy. And if you're into that glossy, healthy hair vibe, the gisu honey infused hair oil is a must have. Also, Sephora makes it super convenient with free shipping and same day delivery.

15:05Shop hair at Sephora and give your hair the upgrade it's been waiting for. Hi, this is Paige from Giggly Squad and today's episode is brought to you by McDonald's. Honestly, Caesar sauce and a Diet Coke at McDonald's might be the perfect girl dinner. And McCrispy strips dipped in Caesar sauce, no notes. Right now at Participating McDonald's, the$2.99 Caesar snack wrap is making me rethink my entire go-to order. Caesar sauce is at Participating McDonald's for a limited time, so go try it before it's gone. Prices and participation may vary. We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes, nature makes all of our lives, well, better.

15:48Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize. With AllTrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on-trail navigation. Download the free app today and make the most of your summer with AllTrails. We had a point that I didn't want to pass over that we did kind of mention a little bit in the science and tech panel. and I'll bring back today is the kind of difference when I go on the show and I talk about tech, we form it in science and like science is usually there's like, you know, an accumulative technology that makes science and so on.

16:28But you also mentioned that there's kind of a separate component, especially when studying archaeology, which is held within indigenous knowledge. And that wouldn't necessarily be considered science, depending. I know that we are getting difficult with vocabulary here, but can you talk about kind of the tech of indigenous knowledge as well? Sure. And, you know, how this kind of came about was, you know, when we were thinking about the science versus tech kind of panel, we were kind of joking, saying like, who's going to win, right? It's science versus technology. And one of the things that I said was, you know, technology has been around a lot longer.

17:05So it just automatically, it automatically, it is before science as we know it, as we know it. So it automatically wins. And when I say science as we know it, I'm referring to something very specific. We're going to get in the weeds, right? So when I'm saying science, I'm saying science is like an institution, right? As like this product coming out of the enlightenment of like this institutionalized scientific kind of endeavor, right? And that's maybe better termed Western science. I just, the kind of point that I was trying to make and making like when we were talking a lot was that, you know, just because our modern technology usually comes out of this kind of product of Western scientific knowledge doesn't automatically make it better, right?

17:50It doesn't automatically mean we shouldn't prize science necessarily like that. I'm not saying that science is bad. I'm a scientist through and through. And it is a very good way of knowing things, but it is just that. It is one way to know things, right? You know, researchers call that an epistemology. There are other ways to know things, right? And they don't necessarily have to be science as we understand it as an institution today, or it could share just maybe certain elements with that. Or it could be a science as we understand it, but we wouldn't call it Western science. And we could put this under the umbrella of indigenous knowledge or indigenous science, right?

18:32And so this is a whole way of saying that there are so many ways of being human and through time people have used their culture and technology and knowledge to produce these tools to solve very specific problems and we should not discount that out of hand um it's it's there you know we can understand so much about being human if we think about what the the difficulties people were facing in the past or the joys that they were facing in the past and how they navigated those things archaeology helps us with that. And so I just wanted to tell the listeners for sure, you know, just because it's science and cutting edge today, it doesn't automatically make it better thinking largely about things.

19:13You know, why did people make fishing nets at a specific time in a specific place? All of a sudden, you know, that's what archaeologists kind of geek out about. And these are the things that we can kind of learn. That was a long winded answer. No, no, no, but perfect. So you actually bring on my next question. I was going to ask, is there a specific piece of anthropological, archaeological tech that you geek out about? Oh, yeah. So I, man, so much. So the fishing nets. I know, you've got to pick one. One or two. Fishing and fishing practices and different strategies. That's kind of my dissertation work in the desert.

19:46So I was all thinking about, you know, why do people fish in the desert, right? Where like, you don't think there's, you know, water sources are important, But we don't think that people are really, you know, relying on different fish at different times. And I kind of work to bust some myths about, you know, actually people were fishing and why they might be doing that. So that's one and how the environment can kind of play into. And in that case, sorry, but in that case, the nets and maybe lures and things like that would be the tech. But also the knowledge, right? And how to use them, sure. Well, how to use them, but when to use them and where to use them.

20:25So that's also it. So for me, I was trying to argue there was actually this kind of these very specific environmental variables that lined up, right, that then triggered the knowledge within a given society to go, we should start fishing now. And that's all part of it, right? So that's the culture kind of part of this. but other ones that we've talked about domestication right and so i think a lot about one of my favorite examples of like is it a domesticator is it not in the southwest the united states like what the southwest that what we call today so like places like arizona new mexico colorado utah and the right in that four corners area we get parrots that start occurring there around, let's say the, I don't know, gosh, 1050s, 80, 1050s.

21:15And in this place called Chaco Canyon, there's a lot of parrots, right, that start coming up and they're not from the desert, right? They're from Mesoamerica. People are moving them up, right? They're not naturally moving. People from Mesoamerica or people from the Southwest are going to Mesoamerica and bringing them. And then we find their remains at archaeological sites. So something that's really fascinating is like, what is the technology there with parrots and their feathers and how they're being incorporated into ceremony and regalia and all these different symbols? So is it mainly the feathers, we think?

21:49Yeah, it's mainly for feather use that we think. But there could be tons of other things. We're getting into issues with archaeology. Yeah. Okay. My last question, I think, is going to be, you know, do you think having that broader definition of technology as an anthropologist affects the way that you see tech today or that that maybe people could see tech today? Yeah, I mean, I think it definitely does. It definitely colors kind of how I think about things. I usually I love my tech. I just spent I just moved into this office and spent the last like week and a half setting up my workstation and all my computers and things.

22:27So I'm but, you know, I think I think about tech and a way longer time span of like, what is the thing that we are latching on to here as like a society and culture that's going to last? And where will that take us? So I'm not so much, you know, the latest chip or the latest software. Oh, that's a good excuse for not updating your tech. You're like, well, no, it's cultural. What is the thing that we are trying to achieve as, say, a society or a small group? And what will get carried forward and what won't? Okay. Any parting comments? Okay. Just think long term, I guess. Drop the bottom out. Whenever you're thinking about a problem, drop the bottom out of it.

23:12Look at it on a way bigger scale. Yeah, exactly. Well, John, thanks for coming on the show. If listeners want to know more, where can they go find you? You can find me at JonathanDombrowski.com. And you can find me at NicoleAckermans.com. I have the same handle on Blue Sky. And you may have heard, I've said it a few times now, that I've started a new show at Technical Tea. The show is Technical Tea, and it's in the family of DTNS Podcasts with Huente Dao. And our new episode is coming up next month about eponyms. So look forward to that and find us at TechnicalTea.show. For more Daily Tech News Show, you can look up DTNS Show on socials and dailytechnewshow.com.

23:55Thank you all for supporting the show at patreon.com slash DTNS. We will be back with regular news on Monday. And until then, have a great weekend.

24:11The DTNS family of podcasts. helping each other understand. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.

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25:38Thank you.