Could the Earth be at the center of the solar system?

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26:12Kelly, you are inviting some Greek speaker to write in and tell us that we are mispronouncing Ptolemy. Maybe there's just like a really subtle P in there. Oh, Ptolemy. I don't know how to do it. Greek speakers write in and tell us if we are mangling Ptolemy and pterodactyls. Oh, I mean, nobody's going to be surprised. Kelly's wrangling names. But all right, let us know. So the first problem with Aristotle's theory that things in heaven are perfect and move in perfect circles is that they don't. Uh-oh. Right? If you follow the planets, you can see that they do not move in perfect circles in the heavens.

26:48They go sometimes into retrograde. This is not an astrology podcast. We're not talking about whether you should be making big moves in your romance life when Mercury is in retrograde. Retrograde is also an astronomical thing. It's when planets change their apparent direction in the sky. Are they actually changing direction or do they just look like they're changing direction because of how we're moving? What's the difference? I mean, everything is relative, right? And so we are looking at the motion of the planet against the background stars from our point of view. So from the point of view of the sun, planets don't change direction.

27:25They move in an orbit going the same direction all the time. But planets move at different speeds around the sun. And so sometimes they can pass each other. So from our point of view, sometimes it looks like they're moving one way and then we pass them. So they're going backwards. And then it looks like they're moving forwards again. Just like if you're on the highway and somebody is really far ahead of you, you can tell that they're going forwards because they're passing stuff, right? But then as you pass them, it looks momentarily like they're going backwards relative to you, right? In your car's window, they're going backwards.

27:56Then once you're far away from them again, you can tell, oh, look, they're going forwards relative to the background mountains. Got it. That's sort of what's happening with the planets. If you look at Mars and you write down its location in the sky every night, you'll see it moving through the ecliptic, and then you'll see it go backwards and then go forwards again. It does this S-shaped zigzag. And that was a big problem for Aristotle's theory that everything is perfect in the heavens and moves in these perfect crystalline circles. What is the ecliptic? The ecliptic is the plane of the solar system.

28:28And so everything in the solar system is roughly in the same plane, right? The sun rotates and it rotates around an axis and a plane perpendicular to that axis has all the planets in it. So if you're on the earth and you track the motion of the sun, it moves in a line through the sky. That's the ecliptic. And all the planets tend to move in that same line. So if you're looking up in the night sky, you shouldn't just see planets everywhere willy-nilly. they're all in the same plane in the solar system, which is a line in our sky. Got it. Okay. All right. So to explain how do planets sometimes zigzag, they had to add the famously mocked epicycles, right?

29:05They're like, okay, we're not giving up on circles. The Greeks love their geometry and their circles, but they're just going to have circles within circles. So now Mars moves in a circle around the earth, but in that circle isn't Mars, it's another circle. So Mars is moving within a little circle, and that little circle is moving within a bigger circle. So is it like every once in a while it'll stop and take a little walk around a cul-de-sac, or is it just constantly doing pirouettes as it goes around in its big circle? It's constantly going around the little circle, and the little circle is constantly going around the big circle.

29:41Oh, wow. And the thing about this theory is that it seems kind of ridiculous, but it worked really, really well. Like compared to the previous theory with no circles within circles, it could really describe the data. And you had to take a bunch of measurements and it was a lot of tedious calculations to find all the parameters, like how big is this circle? How fast is it moving? And there's a guy whose job it was to do this in the 1200s. And he's famous for saying, quote, had I been present at the creation of the universe, I would have preferred a simpler design.

30:15Amazing. But for 1500 years, this is how people understood the motion of the planets in the heavens. And it worked. It described the data really well. So yes, circles within circles or epicycles is used to describe the scenario where you made your theory too complicated, too baroque. You had to add too many wheels within wheels to fit the data. But it did work. It did fit the data. And it's just two layers deep. It's not like circles within circles within circles within circles. right? Just circles within circles, just two layers of circles described what was happening in the heavens for the first time ever.

30:52So that's a big step forward, folks. We really don't know of anyone who was like, actually, wouldn't it all just be easier if we put the sun in the center, guys? That theory was out there, but it was refuted by Parallax. Oh, okay. We had a reason to reject that theory, right? Got it. Okay. People had thought of it and it was in the bin, right? That theory didn't work. Got it, got it. So everyone was reminded of Parallax, and we still didn't realize the stars were very far away. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Who's next? All right. So next up is a famous player, Copernicus, in the 1500s. And there's a lot of stories out there about Copernicus.

31:28He's often described as a Polish priest, but he wasn't actually a priest. He was a canon of the cathedral, which is more like a church administrator. He was never ordained as a priest. but he was part of the church and he held an administrative post his whole life and he was not against the church. He developed his theory of heliocentrism, that the sun was at the center, but he didn't want to attack the church or embarrass the church. And so famously, he withheld publishing his theory and it was only published on his deathbed. So he got the first printed copy of his theory, May 24th, 1543, the day he died.

32:08Okay, so that sounds less like he didn't want to embarrass the church and more like he was worried about his own skin if he still wants it to come out, but not until it can't hurt him anymore. Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of complicated stuff in here. Also, it turns out that the printer who printed his book, Andreas Osiander, was trying to, like, minimize the impact on the church. And so he added a preface which said, like, you know, this is just like mathematics. Attics. This is not the truth or anything. Oh, slice. I know. So this might have also helped a little bit, but probably Copernicus would have been furious.

32:45Or who knows? Maybe he wanted to not embarrass the church and he would have agreed with that. But his motivation was also religious. He just thought that Ptolemy's theory, circles within circles, was kind of ugly. And it didn't reflect the divine work of the best and greatest artist. So he wanted to put the sun at the center, not because he had any insight into astronomy and not because it explained the data any better. In fact, it explained the data worse, but because he just felt like the sun should be at the center because that made the explanation simpler. You no longer needed circles within circles.

33:23You could explain retrograde motion. So you put the sun at the center and now you can just have everything moving in a circle around the sun. But what about parallax? Yeah, so this does not solve the parallax problem, right? And so this is the reason why people were not going for heliocentrism for 1 ,500 years. His new theory does not solve that problem. He suggested, well, maybe the stars are just too far away for us to notice, right? Good idea, Copernicus. Everybody thought, haha, that's ridiculous. What are you talking about? But the other thing I think it's important to understand is that when he moves the sun to the center of the solar system, it does not give a better description of the data.

34:05So even though it's like, we know it's true and it feels like we're getting towards the truth, his theory did not describe observations any better than Ptolemy's theory of circles within circles, right? It's simpler, but Ptolemy had this flexibility in his theory. It's a little Baroque and complicated, but it could describe the data. So what does heliocentrism from Copernicus really get you. It can't explain parallax unless you believe the stars are super duper far away for which there was no evidence. And it doesn't describe the data any better. So I think people typically like this was the revolution in astronomy, but it really wasn't.

34:41Okay. It's just pretty. It's just a little prettier. Yeah, exactly. Was that the dominant theory or was this just a theory that was out there? Because from what you've said to me, it's not clear that this should have become immediately the dominant theory. Yeah, what we really needed at this point was better data. The reason we couldn't tell the difference between the two theories that both of them described the data is the data was kind of fuzzy. This is pre-Galileo, right? So we don't have telescopes looking at the sky taking careful measurements. This is all naked eye astronomy. And so that really relies on people's ability to take measurements.

35:18And so it wasn't until Tycho Brahe, who built a world-class observatory using money from King Frederick of Denmark and took really careful observations, he got higher quality data that finally let us move forward and understand something else about the universe. So I think we probably can't have a conversation about good old Tycho without talking about his nose. So tell us the nose story. So Tycho Brahe, kind of a crazy dude, and kind of unhinged and also a little bit mean. And when he was 20, he fought a duel with a fellow Danish nobleman over math, right? They had an argument about who was the better mathematician, and they fought a duel with swords, and he lost a big chunk of his nose.

36:08And so for the rest of his life, he had a prosthetic nose, which was like brass or maybe be a silver gold alloy that he had to stick on, because otherwise he just looked really weird. And you can't be part of polite society with a huge slice of your nose taken out. So he walked around with this box of adhesive paste to stick this fake nose onto his face. Which I think is a failing of polite society back then and remains to be a failing of polite society today. We should all be much more chill. But anyway. But in 1576, King Frederick of Denmark gave him an island. This is the island of Venn, which I've been to.

36:46It's a beautiful place. You can bike around. It's gorgeous. He has a castle there, Uranibor, Castle of the Heavens, later renamed Castle of the Stars, Stianibor. And it's essentially one of the first astronomical research facilities in the world, built to see the stars, to take careful measurements. So if you have a facility that's gigantic, you probably need a lot of people to work at that facility. What was it like working for good old Brahe? Yeah, so Brahe was not a kind employer. He was famous for being brutal to the local peasants, demanding all sorts of stuff from them. He was also a really weird guy.

37:27He had an elk that he kept in his house, and sometimes he would feed it too much beer and it would fall down the stairs. What? This was a weird dude. He apparently died of a bladder infection from sitting at a royal banquet for too long and refusing to get up to urinate, which was apparently rude, and rupturing his bladder because of that. So he was definitely a weird guy, but there's some things about him which resonate with me. Like he was trying to look at the heavens and to observe things, and there was supposed to be an alignment of Jupiter and Saturn. But it happened two days after it was predicted.

38:04And that's because the measurements were just not great. Like we did not have precise measurements of stuff. And so predicting what was going to happen in the sky is limited by the measurements that we could make. So that was his motivation. I want to understand the heavens better. So he measured the positions of celestial objects in the sky to one arc minute, a 60th of a degree, which is precision of like a fingernail at arm's length, right? These are naked eye observations. No telescopes, no lenses. right? That's amazing. So this data that he gathered is like 10 times more accurate than any data anybody's had about the sky.

38:42And this is what fueled the revolution in astronomy is like needing to actually describe the universe more precisely. And neither the Ptolemaic nor the Copernican models fit that data. Oh boy. So you might be expecting, oh, we take better data. And that's when we learn the heliocentrism is the truth. Oh no, we take better data and we discover neither of those two models actually worked. So what do we do? Yeah, Tycho could not make this work either, right? And the issue, of course, was not going to be solved until later when Kepler came up with his ideas of ellipses, but we're not there yet. Because Tycho rejected Ptolemy's theory that the Earth was at the center of the universe.

39:23He also rejected Copernicus's theory that the Sun was at the center of the universe. He had his own theory. the Tychonic system of the solar system, which sounds like a diet plan from medieval Europe, but it was like a new vision of how the universe might work. I hope it doesn't involve drinking beer and sitting at a table for a real long time. With an elk. Sounds dangerous. So he liked the idea that the Earth was in the center. Tycho said the Earth was a hulking, lazy body, unfit for motion. And it made no sense to him that the Earth was in motion. And also remember, we were not seeing parallax, so he really wanted to keep the Earth at the center of the solar system.

40:05But he also liked the simplicity of the Copernicus system, right, where you don't have circles within circles, where you can explain retrograde motion by having the planets move around the sun. So Tycho was like, hmm, I want the Earth at the center, and I want the planets to move around the sun. Por que no los dos? Right? I don't think he spoke Spanish, but that was the inspiration, right? And it was probably before that commercial, so.

40:31So that's the Tychonic model of the solar system is you have the Earth at the center, the sun moves around the Earth, and all the planets move around the sun, not around the Earth. Right? That's complicated. So it's geoheliocentric, right? Wow. So the Earth is at the center, the sun moves around the Earth, and all the planets orbit the sun. So like together, Earth's sun is bringing all the planets with it as it orbits around the Earth. It's kind of bonkers. Does this actually do a great job with the data? So, you know, this explains retrograde motion, right? Because you have the planets moving around the sun, not the Earth.

41:10Okay. And it explains no parallax observation. We didn't see parallax. Why? Because the Earth was not moving relative to the distant stars, right? Okay. So this was kind of a great idea. And this Tychonic model, though you never hear about it anymore, survived for centuries and was taken seriously for centuries because it fit the data very well. Now, he still used circles, right? This is pre-Kepler. So he wasn't actually able to fit his own data any better than Ptolemy or Copernicus, right? Anybody still using circles for these planets was still not getting great predictions because actually the planets move in ellipses, not in circles.

41:49But he did explain retrograde motion and parallax observation. And Tycho thought that Copernicus's idea that the stars were so distant and that's why we couldn't observe parallax was crazy because he calculated they would have to be at least 700 times more distant than Saturn, which to him was like a bonkers number. If you can see their size and you have an estimate of their distance, you can calculate how big they must be. And he got a number which was huge, much bigger than the sun. And he was like, well, that's crazy. Now, of course, we know there are some really, really big stars out there.

42:25And they were really onto something. But these numbers were just so bonkers to them that they dismissed it. Right? So Tycho Brahe preferred putting the Earth at the center of the solar system rather than accepting the stars were super distant and some of them were super duper big. I thought maybe you said this idea was accepted for centuries, and maybe I misheard you, but I thought it looks like Kepler in decades comes up with a better idea. But were Kepler's ideas not? So Kepler, soon after Tycho Brahe, comes up with the idea of ellipses, right? Because he's Brahe's assistant, and he's tasked with this job of like, look, I like this theory, but it's not really quite working.

43:05I can't explain the data. And he was struggling and struggling and struggling to make the orbit of Mars work in particular. So Kepler couldn't make this work. He struggled for years. And finally, he was like, okay, let's use ellipses. Let's take a break. And when we come back, let's go ahead and settle this debate, which is what you'd expect us to do in the third segment of our show.

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47:03And we're back. And we are finally going to settle this geocentrism, heliocentrism debate. What's going on with parallax? Daniel, let's settle this thing. Right. So we have the Ptolemaic version. The Earth is at the center. We have the Copernicus version. The sun is at the center. We have the Tychonic version, which puts the earth at the center and all the other planets orbiting the sun, right? And none of them are working very well. The reason is that all of them are still based on circles. All the orbits are circles. So Kepler comes in. He's trying hard to make this work. He can't make it work.

47:38He comes up with the idea of ellipses, right? He adds this to Copernicus's theory, right? So the Kepler view of the universe now is Copernicus, but with ellipses instead of with circles. And this matches the data. This works really, really well. And ellipses being long circles? Yeah. So ellipses are like the shape of an egg, right? So a circle is perfectly round, and ellipse is like a squished circle, right? Got it. And he can also upgrade Tycho Brahe's theory to use ellipses, right? So now the Tychonic model can have ellipses. The Copernican model can have ellipses. the Ptolemaic model does not allow for ellipses because they're going for perfect circles.

48:17But you can always just add more ellipses to Ptolemy. So it is possible to fit Ptolemy's theory to Brahe's observations. You just got to add more and more circles. And so it's not really true that Tycho Brahe's data killed the Ptolemaic system, because the Ptolemaic system allowed you to just add more and more circles as you liked. What really killed the Ptolemaic system was Venus. What? How did the goddess of love kill Ptolemy? So remember, Ptolemy could always just add more circles. No matter what data you took, he could actually fit it. But Galileo realized that observing Venus would help us understand whether Venus was orbiting the sun or orbiting the earth.

49:03So Galileo comes around late 1500s, early 1600s, and he realized that your view of Venus would depend on whether it was orbiting the Earth or orbiting the Sun. Okay. So if Venus is orbiting the Sun, right, it's moving around the Sun, there's going to be some point at which Venus is on the other side of the Sun than we are, right? Then the Sun is going to be between Earth and Venus. And in that configuration, we should see an entire side of Venus lit up, right? We should see a full side of Venus. Venus should be full in the sky. Not a crescent, but a full circle in the sky. When it's on the other side of the sun.

49:43When it's on the other side of the sun, because then the light from the sun hits the whole surface of Venus, and then we see that whole thing. Just like how you can see a full moon, right? You can see a full moon when the whole side of the moon is being illuminated by the sun. Okay, I guess when I'm imagining it's on the other side of the sun, I can't see it because it's blocked by the sun. So what is my mental model missing there? You're right that if it's exactly behind the sun, you couldn't see it. But now let it move like a little bit around from behind the sun. And you can see essentially the entire surface of Venus is lit up by the sun, right?

50:17Perfect. Okay. Okay. So now in Ptolemy's model, Venus is orbiting the earth and not orbiting the sun. And so never is it on the other side of the sun. In Ptolemy's model, Venus has its orbit around the Earth, and the Sun has its orbit around the Earth, and their relative distances are fixed. And so in Ptolemy's model, Venus is always between the Earth and the Sun, and so you should never see the full phase of Venus. You always see a crescent. Okay. So you can just look. You just watch Venus. And if you look at Venus, you can see that the phases of Venus are perfectly predicted by Venus orbiting the Sun instead of orbiting the Earth.

50:57So it's the phases of Venus that finally kill off the Ptolemaic system. Direct hit. Ptolemy goes down. But here's an important wrinkle that I didn't fully understand until recently. It does not kill off Tycho Brahe's system, right? So we have Copernicus who says the sun is at the center and everything is orbiting the sun. We have Tycho Brahe who says the earth is at the center. The sun is orbiting the earth and all the planets are orbiting the sun. that's consistent with the phases of Venus, right? So the Tycho Brahe system is not killed off by the phases of Venus. It's still around. How do we kill that one off then?

51:38The thing to understand about the difference between the Copernicus system and the Tycho Brahe system is that even though they sound really, really different, they're actually totally equivalent for local motion. It's just a coordinate transformation. It just says, are you viewing it from the sun or are you viewing it from the earth? They make exactly the same predictions for where things are in the solar system relative to each other. Their only difference is who's moving relative to the distant stars. Like, is the Earth motionless with respect to those stars or is the sun motionless with respect to those stars?

52:14Within the solar system, they're exactly the same prediction. Okay. And just to remind people like me, again, whose brains don't hold information, Copernicus predicted. The sun at the center. The sun at the center. and Tico has the Earth at the center, the sun goes around the Earth and the planets go around the sun. Yeah, and you said, that sounds a lot more complicated. Yeah. And it seems more complicated and it's harder to hold in your mind, but any prediction it makes is exactly the same as the Copernican system for inside the solar system. It's just a coordinate transformation. It just says, from whose perspective are you seeing this?

52:50Okay. So the only way to tell the difference between these two systems is to ask, well, who's moving relative to the distant stars? And you might think, okay, finally, here's where parallax has got to come in. Eventually, we figured out parallax, and that's what killed Tycho Brahe's system, right? Maybe. Wrong. It was not parallax that killed off Tycho Brahe's system. It was something totally different. It was stellar aberration. I don't know what that is at all. Stellar aberration is super famous in the history of physics for killing off the ether theory. That's a whole other podcast episode.

53:26But the idea is you can measure our velocity relative to the stars by looking at how their angle changes during the year. This is different from parallax, right? Parallax just says that if you're in a different location, you'll see them at a different point in the sky. This is sensitive to our velocity relative to the stars. Because if you imagine the light coming from the star, it's going to come down your telescope tube. So you have to point your tube of your telescope where the star is. But if the star is moving, then the light's going to come in at a different angle. And so you have to point your telescope tube slightly differently in order to catch it.

54:05And so the star appears at a different place in the sky than it really is if it's in motion. Now, if you have constant velocity relative to the stars, then you'd see them at a shifted angle all year. You wouldn't be able to tell anything. But if our velocity changes during the year because of our orbit around the sun, then this aberration, this change in the angle changes with respect to the year. One easy way to think about it is that parallax comes from changing your position, while aberration comes from changing your velocity. Parallax is the same effect you see when you look at your thumb with one eye and then the other.

54:42Aberration is more like tilting an umbrella forward when you're walking through the rain because your motion changes the apparent direction the raindrops are coming from. And this was observed 110 years before parallax. And that proves that the Earth is moving relative to the distant stars, just the way you would expect if it's orbiting the sun. If you did that measurement on the sun, you'd see much less aberration because the sun is moving less relative to the distant stars. And so this is what finally killed off Tycho Brahe's theory that the Earth was at the center and not moving relative to the distant stars.

55:20Ha ha! Okay. And so now Kepler wins. So now Kepler and Copernicus win. And it's not until 100 years later that we observe parallax, the thing that the Greeks said was the key to understanding whether the Earth or the Sun is at the center of the solar system. And this comes because Bessel invented something called a heliometer, which uses relative measurements rather than absolute measurements. So instead of like trying to really precisely measure the location of the stars, it just measured the motion of the stars. So it's sort of like subtracting away a source of your systematic uncertainty to only look at changes in your measurements.

56:00So really cool story there, but a hundred years too late to actually be relevant to this debate. What do you think the takeaways are here? Because like, so you've got a bunch of models that do a good job of explaining the data, but they were still wrong. But we kept thinking about it and trying to do a better and better job. But how would, what is the Daniel uplifting message here? You know, I think that this story is a lot more complicated than people usually tell it. You know, I think the not widely understood takeaways are that Copernicus and Ptolemy both described the pre-Kepler data really, really well.

56:36And the Greeks had a good reason to put the Earth at the center of the solar system. And that there was a third player in this whole debate, right? Tycho Brahe is sort of forgotten. Nobody talks about the Tychonic system, even though it survived until the 1700s. And that Kepler's analysis and ellipses didn't actually disprove geocentrism, right? It just made Ptolemaic less likely because it required more circles within those circles. It was the phases of Venus that finally killed off Ptolemy. and that it wasn't until aberration and then eventually parallax that Tico Brahe's system was finally disproven.

57:11The more data you have, the better you're going to do. We had to know about Venus. We had to know about parallax. We had to know about stellar aberrations. All of this came together to tell our story. Exactly. And so this tells you that our exploration of the universe can go down weird paths for hundreds of years sometimes before somebody takes the right piece of data or has the right idea. and that many of the stories we tell about the history of scientific discoveries are vastly oversimplified. And that if you're standing at the forefront of human knowledge at any given moment, it's not always obvious what the next step is, even if it seems like it in hindsight.

57:47That's right. All right, thanks, Daniel, for this walk through science history. I had a great time. Until next time, Extraordinaries.

58:01Thanks everybody for listening. Please go and do us a favor and rate the show on whatever podcast app you're using. It really helps people find us. Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is edited by the amazing Matt Kesselman. He really is a wizard. You can also find us online on Blue Sky, Instagram, and XDNKUniverse. Come engage with us. You can email us at questions at danielandkelly.org. We really do want to hear from you. And you can find our website, www.danielandkelly.org, where you'll also find an invitation to join our Discord, where everybody comes and talks about the amazing universe.

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