Do Animals Make Mistakes? (featuring Dr. Andy Sih)

28:02But it was still the best you could do. But on the other hand, it is an error if you actually, you know, were too risk taking. You know, so what we try to do in the field is figure out what is like the optimal level of balancing risk and rewards. And you could actually get killed even doing the best that you could possibly do. But you could also make a mistake and overdo it. So for example, if there are like lions at the waterhole, but you have to drink, then you have to take the risk and try to drink when there aren't lions or whatever. But sometimes you're going to get eaten. And you're saying that taking that risk is not a mistake, but taking it unnecessarily or being sloppy about it, that would be a mistake.

28:44Exactly. Cool. And I think a layer we put on top of that that also is part of how more sophisticated analyses of human behavior do, that economists do, is account for imperfect information. That to actually even optimally balance what you should do would imply that you kind of know everything you need to know about what's going on. Like, where is the predator? Where is the food? And is that good food? And, you know, and so on. But there's a pretty good sense that we don't have perfect information. Animals don't have perfect information. and part of why you might make an error, but it's still an understandable error, is things are unpredictable.

29:26Often they're not totally unpredictable, they're partially unpredictable, and you're still doing the best you can in an unpredictable world. Like when you put an investment into whatever, which could be financial or, for that matter, a mate choice, or buying a used car, that you don't have perfect information, you're not predicting the future, because, you know, who can do that? And so you might make mistakes. And we still kind of call those mistakes, but they're still obviously understandable mistakes. So how much do we know about how much information animals are taking in? So like every once in a while, we'll get a question from a listener that will be like, you know, are animals like robots where they're just sort of responding to stimulus without thinking about it too much?

30:10Is a salamander that's living in an environment, and yes, I picked that in particular, is a salamander that's living in an environment like taking in information about the risk and like, how much information do animals take in and what are they doing with it? Yeah, this is a fascinating field because it's almost like the Dr. Doolittle thing of trying to understand what an animal is thinking. What does it know? You know, people have also mentioned like, I don't actually know what you're thinking. And what do you know? Even the thing of, am I sure that you're an actual conscious thinking organism?

30:44But for animals, it's going to be a lot harder. We are not them. We don't understand them that well, but we can do various experiments where we often train them by having a certain set of information that we give them. And then we often trick them by then changing the world in some way. So it used to be red means where the food is and see how long it's taken to figure that out. But then we change it to blue and various experiments of that sort can give us a sense of how do they think about the world. And, you know, sometimes we figure out they don't know as much as you would think they might know.

31:19But sometimes they're unbelievably smarter than we would think. Can you give an example of a moment where you were like, wow, I didn't expect this animal to be as smart as it ended up being? Yeah, I think some of the classic stuff on that is even honeybees and their ability to find food. And this is actually outside of my expertise, so I won't know the example in any detail, but their ability to find food using some combination of memory and navigation skills, even when they're barriers, like there's a building in between, is actually apparently much better than humans. Oh, wow. And the general idea there is that animals have evolved to do what they need to do, and that it's still usually thought of as using relatively simple sensory and cognitive mechanisms, but there are things that we are not evolved to do so well that other animals can do better than us.

32:17And actually, even like pigeons feeding on just little bits of food on the ground, I don't know if you've ever watched that or actually thrown out some bread for them, but they can actually spot the food that's just kind of out there, little tiny bits of crumbs, better than we can. So was there like an experiment where they threw out breadcrumbs and they had people crawling around trying to get the crumbs and pigeons and the pigeons won? Well, the cute thing is that scientists like to be more tech than that. And so we actually trained pigeons to feed, and we've done this with various animals, on little bits of things on a video screen.

32:55Yeah. And they got to peck on that. And if they peck correctly, they get real food. And so what they do is they put little dots of things on backgrounds that actually are not that easy to see what's what. But I'm pretty sure pigeons are better than humans at detecting stuff on a screen. Cool. That's a reasonable simulation of food on the ground. And anybody who's had a cat knows that like cats are very good at understanding patterns. I was hearing a story recently about a guy who used to feed his cat dinner at the end of the day when he closes his laptop. And the cat figured this out and just started closing the guy's laptop and expecting dinner.

33:34I'm lucky my gigantic cat didn't figure that out. He wasn't super smart. But anyway, so say you are out in nature and you see an animal get eaten. How do you start thinking about whether or not that was a mistake and what caused the mistake? Yeah, what do you do? So one of the questions from the listener was, how do you even know an animal has made a mistake when you see a behavior happening? Yeah, that's a great question. You know, one interesting thing is, despite loads of work on predator-prey interactions, you know, lions and whatever, and pumas feeding on deer, actually seeing the actual predation event, even though out in the Serengeti, out in the open, we can see it more easily.

34:21But for lots of other animals, we don't actually even see the predation event much at all. Like we know hawks are catching little birds and catching mice, but there's actually apparently not much information on the actual event occurring. So we don't know as much about that as you would think. And even these days, we've got more and more animals wearing little devices that are kind of like our cell phone, you know, little GPS units and accelerometers. So we're getting a better picture of the more detailed elements of what's really going on when there is a predation event. But yeah, when I see an animal get killed in one of my experiments, I guess the first step we usually do is actually think about and get enough data on these risk-reward trade-offs.

35:05But then there are other cases of where what we realize, even as biologists, is they have limited sensory systems that if the animal can't see very well at all, and a predator that is fast and doesn't have much smell, isn't making any noise, comes out of nowhere and kills them, then we figure that animal didn't really make a mistake because it doesn't see very well, couldn't see that thing coming, even though we could. though it could have made a mistake in that it shouldn't have been out of its hiding place at that time of the day. So we think more about this sort of, there was this risk reward trade-off.

35:42It came out to feed and it overdid that maybe, but part of the thing of where it just didn't have good sensory abilities is certainly part of what we think about. Yeah. And more detailed analyses of insects have found that their eyes are often much smaller than our eyes and they're totally different. They've got, you know, bazillions of little bits of eyes that all put together the image. But I guess analyses have found that their vision is much worse than you would think. What they see is a much blurrier picture. And that even seeing something from a few feet away is not something that many of them can do very well, the ones with little eyes, little insects.

36:19But they can see a shadow coming so they can see your hand coming to try to slap them. But But otherwise, their vision is not very good. So you wouldn't expect them to see stuff that a perfect animal would see. Can I ask a kind of a basic question? Which is, it seems to me like the categorization of like, this is a mistake, this is not a mistake, is a little bit subjective. People argue about it, whatever. Is it important that we get that boundary correct? Or is this just like what humans are curious about, that you're excited about these kinds of behavior because they personally tickle you? or is it like actually an important scientific decision?

36:57What's a mistake and what isn't? Okay, yeah. No, I would say that actually there is no absolute consensus on is that a mistake? And it's not actually even a topic that these animal behaviors are talking about a lot, perhaps because it'd be hard to nail down and have me say, no, you're wrong. This is a mistake and that's not a mistake. You're mistaken about mistakes. Exactly. Yeah. But what we do have is just that clearly animals do get killed. Animals do end up, you know, just going in directions and going to places where they really probably shouldn't have done that. and that it's actually a major source of thinking and insight into what the animals are really doing, or plants for that matter, that we build like simple models that say if they knew everything and they were perfect at balancing all that information, this is what they would do.

37:53But when we run the experiments, that's actually what they do. And the difference often gives us a hint as to what are the mistakes. mistakes. But then we try to understand why did they do that? And that often lets us figure out part of the story on, oh, well, they didn't even have the sensory ability or no, they had this other risk reward trade-off or a speed accuracy trade-off. I was just wondering if this could help understand like teenagers and why they make the decisions they do. Whoa. Yeah. Let's see. I guess that's a pretty big one. I don't know if I had the answer for that. But my teenager, when he was still a teenager, did do stuff like didn't bother to go to school because he thought it'd be more fun to go just sit and read a book.

38:42And at one point, he – well, let me not go on and on about my teenager. Let's take another hypothetical teenager. I see them, for example, riding bikes, and they wear their helmet, but they don't clip the helmet because apparently that's cool to ride a bike with a helmet unclipped. And I just think like, that feels like a mistake to me. Yeah. But there must be some way in which their minds are like, this is the optimal teenage behavior, right? Their failure to amazing and update something. Yeah. I don't think I have an immediate answer to why, but now it makes me think, oh my God, did I clip my helmet on this morning?

39:21I mean, isn't I feel like something that that has been hounded into me when I go to the middle school orientations is that at this age, their brains are not fully developed yet. And like they don't fully develop until they're what is it? Twenty one, twenty four is when like the frontal lobe fully develops. It's some age that seems way too late to me, like it should have happened sooner. So I wonder if like limited cognitive ability explains some of that. I would like to at least blame some of my youthful indiscretions on a brain that had not finished developing yet, personally. You know, that's this interesting thing that, of course, all animals have got limitations on their cognitive, you know, just how much brain power do they have.

40:06But, you know, the thing where we didn't develop enough brain power is not quite saying that that explains. You know, I think the fact that teenagers now do stuff that we think, what the hell, might have even been a clue to, are their brains not even developed enough yet? But the fact that parts of their brain are still developing, I wonder whether or not they actually were still smarter when it actually made a difference. like hundreds of years ago when if you made a mistake you got killed or the family didn't get enough food because you didn't do what you were supposed to do that actually even though their brains were not as developed as they will be when they're 25 which you know many years ago was way past the point when it mattered what you do but maybe as a teenager nowadays it doesn't matter as much all around in some sort of fitness terms.

41:01And that's a key part of this story. So like the age that development finishes is slipping because they're less likely to die one way or another? Is that what you're arguing? I think it's possible you don't actually need to have your brain develop fully to make good decisions. That's a connection we have seen. We sort of blame it on that. But I think a lot of decisions that matter probably used to be done well, even before their brains were developed, that, you know, a two-year-old might not be able to figure out what to do yet. But actually, and this is totally out of my field of expertise. So now I'm really intrigued to go look this up, whether or not we have evidence that, you know, 12-year-olds used to be pretty smart.

41:44It sounds to me like you're saying that teenagers are kind of goofy at decision-making because they don't have real consequences and we protect them. And so basically it's our fault if teenagers are being idiots. Yeah. Okay. Right. And, you know, we shape the ways they are idiots, but we basically do kind of let them get it. Or maybe it's not we, but just sort of nature and, you know, problems and actual things with major consequences. Yeah. Well, that lands. I think my kids don't experience probably nearly as many consequences as they ought to. So I'm contributing to that problem. But let's go ahead and take a break.

42:24And when we come back, we're going to talk about how different personality types tend to make different kinds of mistakes.

42:54Six. Five. Six. Who is it? It's Cowie and Elliot. It's Cowie and Elliot. Lingo Kids. Only suitable for kids. If it gets stuck in mom's head, that's not our problem. Lingo Kids! Everything kids love. Download now for free.

43:20Okay, and we're back. And I ended up going to Andy's lab because I was interested in this concept of animal personalities. And that, you know, sort of set me on my life path. And so we'd have to talk about animal personalities today, of course. And so, Andy, what is what do we mean when we say animal personalities and like do fish have personalities? Aha. OK. Turns out to be something that my lab has studied quite a bit. and Kelly was studying fish personalities and how they were possibly being manipulated by parasites. And so that's Kelly's entry point into an entire fascinating career. The idea of what is a personality for most of us comes out of thinking about human personalities.

44:06And for human personalities, there's a whole sense of sort of emotions and feelings and things that we think might be not what other animals are feeling and thinking. emotionally. But the core idea there that the field of animal personalities has picked up on is just the idea that humans are each individual has some sort of consistency in who they are, that each one of us could do things that our friends would think that's unexpected. This is not who they are, that they have a sort of a type and that different individuals have different types. And so we apply that to other animals, where the behaviors we look at in other animals is often not exactly what we look at in humans, but it's sort of like, you know, how bold are they or how aggressive are they?

44:52And that when we test any given individual animal and just see what it's up to, we find that indeed some cats are, you know, more curious than others or more aggressive than others and dogs. And it's gone to fish and insects and spiders. And people have even speculated on whether or not plants have different personalities and how aggressively they kind of grow and even put out chemicals that try to harm other plants and so on. I love the idea of a plant that's like consistently kind of a jerk and is like releasing lots of chemicals all the time. Yeah. And so why, what is the current like framework for thinking about why why personalities exist at all?

45:34Like, is it better to be consistent so people could be like, well, that's kind of weird that you did that? Or would it be better to like, be able to adjust to every situation and respond perfectly? Yeah, that actually has not been nailed down as to why be consistent. So something to clarify is, it's not just, you know, why are some bold and some are fearful, let's say. We kind of have a sense that that's partially genetic, partially shaped by earlier experiences, and that it is connected to something about your hormones and your brain, and actually even some evidence that it's connected to your microbiome.

46:16But this is the question of why even be consistent at all, right? And for that one, quite a lot of the literature says, even though behavior in principle could go, you know, you could be more bold, less bold. You could, you know, nothing in physics stops you from being totally different tomorrow from, or even 10 seconds from now, from what you were 10 seconds ago. But if your behavior is connected often for sensible reasons to something else that is more stable, maybe even somewhat permanent, but more stable anyway, that that kind of grounds your personality. And the things that are more stable have lots of possibilities.

46:55It It could be just, you know, what condition are you, you know, how strong and vigorous and coordinated you are. But it could be your information state, you know, what skills do you have. That could be mental skills, like you're a bold type because you've learned over time how to be bold well. And so it makes sense for you to be bold. So you continue to be bold. So you get more practice of being bold. You are bold and you stay bold versus you are the fearful type. And being bold would be you'd be really bad at it. So your skill set kind of locks you into a personality. Another idea is being consistent is part of the social world where it helps that when other individuals know who you are, they could manipulate you by realizing you're nice.

47:45So I'm going to take advantage of that. And that's a problem with being consistent. but it could be an advantage where they know you are nice, so they will be nice to you because they know you will be nice in return and a nice friendship develops that they can count on. But that probably doesn't apply for lots of other animals that still do have these consistencies. I mean, are we suggesting here that there is like an ideal personality, that having a range of personalities isn't sometimes better than having a single personality? I mean, clearly, diversity in thought and diversity in background is a benefit in many communities, right?

48:21Yeah. It's not like there is one perfect personality and we should all be that person. Yeah. So, there's a fair bit of ongoing study. There's a lot in humans. So, the human personality world of study is quite large. Yeah. And there is a lot of work on how the mix of personalities in a group can have various benefits. It's, though there are also studies on bad personalities. They literally sometimes use the term bad apples in your social group that can mess up the social dynamics. So it's not like all personality variation is a good idea to have in your group. And we all know that. And so people are also studying this with animals where we put together collections of more bold and less bold and see if the more bold are helpful in kind of exploring.

49:11and the group can follow the leaders that there wouldn't be any leaders if everyone was fearful. But the fearful ones are good at actually being more vigilant and ready. So for predator attacks, they're the first to respond and the group benefits both ways. And so people have been studying those sorts of things. In humans, it's, you know, there's a lot of personality study and it does turn out that different personalities have different strengths. And I think that's probably obvious. there is enough of a literature to suggest that one of the personality axes in what's called the big five in humans is more closely related to successful careers and successful long-term happy marriages than other personality axes.

49:58So I'm going to ask you, after I tell you what the axes are, what you think is the key to happiness and success in life. Avoiding chemistry, that's the key. All right, what are the five axes? Okay, the five axes are acronymed as ocean. So the O is openness for sort of curious and exploratory. And the C is conscientiousness, being responsible and like on time. And the E is extroversion versus introversion. The A is agreeableness, sort of being nice. and for that matter, trusting. And the N is neuroticism, where you are actually relatively easily stressed and maybe worry too much and so on. So what do you think is the key axis?

50:49I want it to be neuroticism because that would be good for me, but I'm sure it's not. You want to go first, Daniel? I guess I'm going to guess openness. That seems to me to be a crucial thing in marriages and friendships and maybe in professional relationships. I don't know. I was going to go with the O too. Yeah. So openness is not actually, it's more sort of a curiosity and maybe not so much willingness to accept what your partner is saying as willingness to try out new things and stuff like that. So openness, I'm pretty sure there's a literature on how that is often associated with creative, highly successful creative people in the arts or in the sciences.

51:30but actually the axis that boringly seems to be the best correlate is conscientiousness. Oh, wow. Conscientious people kind of get things done in jobs and careers and actually, you know, none of this is like an absolute predictor. Yeah. And you don't even need both people to be conscientious, actually. If one person, if your partner's conscientious, it helps apparently keep you happier that they actually are on time and responsible and do the dishes and so on. I wonder if that's correlated with stress. Like one of you needs to remember that the taxes are due once a year. And if neither one of you remembers that, then you're both just going to be miserable all the time.

52:11And so I had conscientiousness third on my list. I thought maybe agreeable after like openness. But anyway, that that makes sense. Yeah. And so in animals, our main things are how bold are they at basically in this risk reward tradeoff, kind of willing to go out there and take risks to get the food or to get the mate, but aggressiveness. and we also study exploratory tendencies, sort of willingness to just go out into places that we, as far as our experiment goes, we know they've never been there before, but also sociability, which is tendency to actually prefer to kind of hang out with other members of your species.

52:54That's just sort of the opening line on it. And there is a medium literature that each of these, if you're too much on that scale, it can be associated with making some even really bad mistakes. Let's talk about some of those. Can you give us some famous examples? You know, the boldness is almost obvious that if you're too bold, that this can get you killed and make it more likely that you get killed than otherwise. And that mainly comes up as something we can actually get the data on if, in fact, there are lots of danger. Being really bold in a safe world ends up being often a pretty good idea.

53:34Being too aggressive has been associated with picking fights with bigger opponents and starting fights unnecessarily, but also associated with actually with sexual coercion in other species, like beating up the female when it just wasn't necessary and even drove her away. When is it necessary? Sorry. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess in some species, actually, you know, suppressing the female physically is just part of how things work. I don't know if you've seen ducks mating at a duck pond, Daniel. It can be unpleasant to watch. But yes, nature's rough. Yeah, and it turns out one of the species that I was studying, water striders, these bugs that skate over the surface of the water, There were males that were so geared up and aggressive about mating, but about everything, that they were busy attacking everything and trying to mate with it.

54:30And that was actually quantifiably too aggressive because during the mating season, they drove everybody else away. So after a while, nobody was even in their general area anymore. They'd driven everyone away and they didn't get to mate because they were just too aggressive about it. Were these water striders that had been like collected from the wild or is this like the kind of thing you only see in the lab? Yeah, yeah. No, this is these were yeah, these were wild animals. Wow. Too wild, apparently. Yeah. Or, you know, the example that I don't remember if you even overlap with this study, but the example of excess sexual cannibalism.

55:07I remember hearing a lot about this. Yeah. So when I've mentioned that in, you know, in talks to even like the public, people love those words, excess sexual cannibalism. It's a terrifying combination. Sexual cannibalism. How much sexual cannibalism is the right amount of sexual cannibalism? That is actually what the study was looking at is spiders. So we popularly known that black widow females will kill the male sometimes and eat it. This was a study in fishing spiders that are pretty big and kind of scary because they can run fast over land. They can run over water. They can go underwater and catch little fish underwater.

55:56And they actually do that by actually erecting like little hairs that are waterproof on their body that ends up coating them with a layer of oxygen. So when they go underwater, they can breathe out of this little bubble they've created around themselves. That's amazing. And stay underwater for like half an hour or more. Wow. But the females actually, during the mating season, will sit at the edge of some water, like a little pool, a pond, and males come in court. And males will sort of poke at the water and kind of signal by sending little waves over there that I'm a male and please don't attack me.

56:30But in fact, females basically have the choice that if they think this male is good enough, they might let him mate. And if he's below the bar, then might as well kill him and eat him and get a good meal out of it. Sure. And males are very careful in their courtship. But in fact, sometimes obviously, sometimes they just get driven away. The female attacks and the male runs away. But other times he gets caught and eaten. And what the study documented, so it's not all bad doing it. It's you saying, here's my mate choice. you're not good enough so i'm going to kill you and eat you instead but uh in this species uh the study found that a measurable proportion of the females were so geared up and set the bar so high apparently they didn't mate with anybody and so they didn't actually fertilize their eggs and they ended up with zero fitness and that was reasonable to call that excess sexual cannibalism instead they drove away or killed and ate every male that they met.

57:28That's, yeah, I do remember hearing about, that was Chadwick Johnson, right? I think he was right before me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I remember thinking that was a crazy study. And we end up, we get a lot of questions about evolution and why we see certain behaviors. And so why, why, why can, why does that show up? Why is that a thing that exists when clearly it's a bad choice for the females to eat every partner who they come across? Yeah, what studies found was the same females that are too geared up to sexually cannibalize, set the bar too high, are also females that are just generally more aggressive.

58:04So they actually did get more food, grew bigger, made more eggs, and had all these benefits of being the aggressive type. They were also relatively bold that after we scare them into hiding, they came out more quickly. So they were generally that type, and there were many advantages of being that type. as a spider. But they made this mistake. By the other hand, probably most of the very aggressive female fishing spiders did fine because they did meet somebody who was above the bar. And these didn't know that it turns out all the males that I meet are not good enough. And I probably should have made it with the last one, but I didn't know that was the last one I'll ever see.

58:48And, you know, the way I often put it is there are plenty of people who have set a high bar and are not currently paired up with anybody and maybe even kind of lonely. And they set the bar too high. And the main difference between them and the spiders is they probably didn't tend to actually kill and eat the partners that they rejected. Yeah. Well, there's also probably a lot of people out there who have rejected all their partners and they're super happy being on their own. Yeah, no, that's fair. Yeah, just a different environment. Yeah, I guess we didn't check whether or not any of those spiders were actually kind of happy after they had sat there.

59:25They had absolutely no regrets afterwards. They were like, this was all the right choice for me. Yeah, yeah. The question of what can we tell if an animal is happy is actually a pretty interesting question that I don't have clear expertise on, but that's the animal welfare world is trying to figure out, are animals, you know, unhappy? Are they, you know, just not even like in health terms, unhealthy? They're just, are they just kind of like bored for that matter? Yeah, pacing back and forth and not enjoying their lives. And yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so we also had this question of do animals have free will?

1:00:02And, you know, I think Daniel and I will philosophically argue even if humans have free will and if physics has anything to say about that. And so I don't think there is an answer. But at the end of the day, you know, philosophically, what what do you think? Do do non-human animals have free will? Yeah, I'll probably put it as it's as complicated. We might think it's less complicated. They're just little automatons. You poke them in this way and they'll do that. And the simplest animals, we've probably done enough work on their neurobiology that it might be as simple as you poke them in this way and they do that.

1:00:40But lots of other animals have enough complexity in their overall system that they are quite flexible in what they're doing and much more just sort of flexible and context dependent on I'm going to do this when you poke me. But it depends on this, this, that and like a bazillion other things that even some of these insects are actually pretty, you know, pretty far along in that way. And so if we think that the fact that we are so context dependent, that there are many things that seem to affect how we do things to the point where it's so complicated that somewhere in there, maybe we're not at all like poke me and I'll do this, that we actually have some actually philosophically.

1:01:29I mean, I'm backing myself into a corner of saying that when we are that complicated enough in context dependencies that we can't even figure out what the real context dependency is. Like there's too many interacting factors that somewhere in there emerges the possibility that we even have free will. And that other animals do have quite a lot of that already. And that it's not out of the range that they also have something in there that's free will. They certainly do a lot of stuff that seems to be just kind of hanging around, not focused on. I am looking for food. Get out of my way. That they do a lot of other wandering around.

1:02:07All right. We have had an hour of amazing conversation about mistakes. And so that is the end of the show for us. And Andy, it was so great having you on the show. Thank you. Hopefully we'll be able to have you come back on the show again. I got to say it was really fun asking you why animals have animal personality. and then remembering that you asked me that at my master's defense and I totally blew it. And it was fun to get to ask you, but you got the answer right. And so I guess it was a different experience for you than it was for me. Yeah. Andy, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much.

1:02:39Thanks for being on the show. Okay, thanks much. Hey, everyone. Thanks for the thorough answer to my question. The idea of evolutionary traps is an interesting concept, though I am familiar with the idea of how humans are not really prepared for the modern food environment. So I really enjoyed that aspect. I also like the segment on how even animals can be doing a risk reward assessment. And sometimes the error is just taking on too much risk. It was a great episode. I enjoyed listening. Thanks again.

1:03:11Thanks everybody for listening. Please go and do us a favor and rate the show on whatever podcast app you're using. It really helps people find us. Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is edited by the amazing Matt Kesselman. He really is a wizard. You can also find us online on Blue Sky, Instagram, and XDNKUniverse. Come engage with us. You can email us at questions at danielandkelly.org. We really do want to hear from you. And you can find our website, www.danielandkelly.org, where you'll also find an invitation to join our Discord, where everybody comes and talks about the amazing universe.

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