How many rogue planets and stars are there?

24:49I have to admit, I'm a little biased towards a particular listener question. And that was my daughter's listener question, because I think she asked you if our son was thrown out of another galaxy and ended up where it is today. And I think you said no. Is that right? Yeah, I don't remember in detail, unfortunately. What? Because we answer so many questions and we're trying to be democratic about them and not show any favoritism. All right, all right. But I'm glad that you remember. So in that sense, it's true that our star has always been a member of the Milky Way, but it's also possible that it was a member of another galaxy which then formed and became the Milky Way, like joined with the Milky Way.

25:27Though our star is fairly young for the Milky Way, like the Milky Way is almost as old as the universe, and our star is only a few billion years old. So it's also possible that it formed in the Milky Way. Wow. Okay, cool. So sometimes galaxies combine. And how exactly does that result in something getting kicked out so that it's no longer part of the club? Yeah. So you have these two galaxies, each of which is already spinning, right? And now they come in and they combine, they form a new center of mass. And some things naturally have the right velocity and the right distance and the right direction in order to be orbiting the new center of mass.

26:02But sometimes they don't. And the new center of mass has like a gravity to tug on that star and just eject it. And so it's not guaranteed that everything in the old galaxies finds a new stable orbit in the new galaxies. It's a real drag when things change. It can, exactly. And remember that at the hearts of these galaxies are supermassive black holes. These enormously massive, very dense compact objects we don't understand very well that can provide a huge gravitational boost. And so if the new stars coming in get close to the supermassive black hole of the other galaxy, boom, they can very easily get ejected.

26:37Wow. Or even without a merger, if a star wanders too close to the supermassive black hole in our galaxy, for example, then it can get a big kick and become what they call a hypervelocity star. Whoa. How do we detect and measure this stuff? So, of course, space telescopes, one of humanity's greatest invention. Give more money. And we can look at these stars and we can measure their velocity by looking at the redshift. We know how a star should emit light at what frequencies because we know what they're made out of and we can look at the spectrum and say, oh, look, there's hydrogen, there's helium, there's other stuff in the atmosphere of this star.

27:09But if we see those things shifted from the fingerprints where we expect to see them, then we know that the star has a velocity because a velocity from the star will give a Doppler shift, will change the light, it will redshift all the light from that star. So a star moving away from us will be redder and a star moving towards us will be bluer. So by looking at the spectrum of the star, you can measure the velocity of the star. This is how we see that most of the universe is moving away from us. By looking at the redshift of stars in other galaxies, we can also do that for individual stars within our galaxy.

27:43And we've been doing that for like 20 or 30 years now. Whoa. So how often have we seen something being ejected? So we've seen a bunch of stars inside our galaxy that have crazy high velocities, like this one called S5 HVS1, moving at almost 2 ,000 kilometers per second relative to the center of the galaxy. And if you look at its trajectory, it looks like it visited the galactic center, got boosted by something in there, and is now headed straight out of the galaxy. Is it going to stop? Unless it gets deflected by something else along the way, it's moving out. And we just hope that it writes us letters and updates us on its life.

28:17But it's just going to keep going and going and going. And oh, man, sorry. Yeah, because the galaxy is pretty sparse, especially once you leave the center. And so it's not easy to hit another star. I mean, there's going to be gravitational deflections, but this thing is moving super fast. Wow. Another way you can get a hypervelocity star is being kicked by a supernova. So for example, if you have a binary star system, two stars formed together burning near each other, if one of them becomes a supernova, which happens sometimes if it's like not enough mass to become a supernova and it becomes a white dwarf.

28:50And then later it gathers a little bit of extra mass sometimes from its partner. Then it can suddenly go supernova. That's the type 1a supernova. And that boost can kick the other star out of the galaxy. And we've seen one of these things. It's called US 708, a helium rich sub-dwarf star moving super fast, more than a thousand kilometers per second, probably ejected by type 1a supernova. It's essentially its partner. So that's like a star divorce. Oh, ooh, and divorces are rarely clean and nice things, but sometimes they are. But so a supernova, that's just like a giant explosion, right? So the explosion sent it flying?

29:27Yeah, exactly. It's a huge explosion. It releases an enormous amount of energy. These stars are briefly brighter than the rest of the galaxy combined. Wow. It's really a mind-boggling amount of energy. And all that radiation pressure can push the other star and send it out of the community to its lonely, divorced dad apartment. It's not me. It's you.

29:52Exactly. So the Doppler technique is the way we measure these things. And so you can look around and try to measure the speeds. But sometimes we can't even measure these speeds very well. We can only sort of find a minimum. Why? Why is it so hard to measure the speed? Is it because they're so far away and moving so fast? I mean, it's amazing we can measure any of this stuff at all, to be fair. Yeah, well, we can essentially only measure the speed away from us, right? And so if a star is moving at an angle, then it has an additional velocity that we're not capturing. Okay. So this is sort of a minimum speed.

30:22Cool. We have theories for how this might happen, et cetera. But people have been looking for these stars. And some astronomers from Vanderbilt identified more than 670 stars at the edge of the Milky Way, sort of between us and Andromeda. Wow. And these are stars that have already been ejected. They're like living out there in the middle of space. These are not stars that we're projecting are going to leave the galaxy. They're just like out there floating in the middle between us and the next galaxy. Wow. And they must all be incredibly far away. Yeah, exactly. These are faraway stars. They're hard to see.

30:53But the light that comes from them also tells us about their origin. These stars are red giant stars. They have a lot of metal in them. And it's hard to find metals in between galaxies. Metals tend to be at the core where there's a lot of gravity. There's more metals at the center of the gravity than there are in our neighborhood of the galaxy, and there's even less in the outskirts of the galaxy. So the fact that these stars have a lot of metal in them tells us that they're probably formed close to the center of a galaxy. These are definitely not formed out there in space. So this is like direct confirmation of this whole idea that stars are formed in galaxies and then sometimes ejected, especially from the core, out into space.

31:31Man, it's got to be hard to go from the center of the universe to getting thrown out on your own. Yeah, exactly. So I was really having fun when we were talking about explosions. Are there any more explosion-based ways that stars can go rogue? Sometimes stars go rogue and then they explode. This is super awesome. It's an intergalactic supernova. What? So imagine the scenario we had before where you have like a white dwarf and a partner star. And earlier we talked about that white dwarf exploding and kicking its partner out of the galaxy, which seems unfair, but hey, it happens. It's a cold universe out there.

32:07But sometimes those two stars get kicked out together by something else. Maybe they together visited the core of the galaxy and get ejected. Now they're out there in the middle of space between galaxies, and they're still doing their thing. And then one of them can go supernova by grabbing some of the material from the other one. and so they can create an explosion out there in the middle of space. And that blows both of them out farther or just one of them? So then the other one, if it survives, they don't always survive, but if it does, it'll get ejected in some new direction. So it's already got thrown out by the galaxy and now its partners rejecting it and it's getting shot out in some new direction.

32:48How could you possibly know that things had taken such a complicated path without observing that directly? That's amazing. It's hard to explain how you might get a supernova otherwise in between galaxies, where there just isn't the material to form these stars. Wow. So how many of these are there, do we think? So it's a great question. We've seen a lot of them, like hundreds, thousands by now, of these intergalactic stars, these rogue stars floating out there. And we're confident that they come from galaxies. And then we take this step that astronomers often do, which is try to estimate how many of them are there.

33:22Like we're seeing a small number of them, but we can also estimate our ability to see them. Like if we think we're seeing only 1 % of the stuff that's out there because it's blocked by something or because of our detection capabilities, then we can count the number we see and extrapolate to the total population. That's always a bit of a dangerous extrapolation because you never really know what fraction of stuff are you seeing because you don't see the whole denominator. But you can use models and theories, et cetera. So this is very speculative, and there's lots of different estimates. Some early estimates suggested that 10 % to 20 % of all stars in galactic clusters are not in a galaxy.

33:59What? That they're between galaxies. Yeah, like one in five. That's way higher than I would have guessed. I don't know why. That seemed like a rare thing. It seemed like it should be a rare thing. On the other hand, I think we're biased because of our experience. We tend to think of our star and our planets and our galaxy as the typical thing. But we've learned over and over in physics that our experience is not typical. Our kind of matter isn't typical. Our star isn't typical. And so this is just another example. And then I read a more recent study that suggested maybe up to 50 % of all stars are not in galaxies.

34:34This is much more speculative and it came from understanding the extragalactic background light, which is just like an overall general glow of light that comes from outside the galaxy that we don't fully understand and could be coming from tons and tons of these hypervelocity rogue stars, but it's very indirect and speculative. So the bottom line is it's a big number. Rogue stars are out there. They're not rare. We don't know what fraction of stars in the universe are rogue. It might be 10%. It might be 20%. It might be 50%. It's some huge fraction of the stuff that's out there in the universe.

35:08It's not unusual. So from a sci-fi perspective, whenever I hear about Dyson spheres, I think what right do you have to take all of the light from the sun and deprive all the planets that rely on that light of the sun's light? But if 50 % of the suns out there don't have any planets around them, we could just go and capture that energy. And what does that harm? Well, that's a great question, actually. If a star is ejected from the galaxy, does it keep its planets or not? Right? Because I think you're assuming that a star that undergoes that kind of gravitational perturbation is going to lose its planets.

35:43And I think that's probably true, but not necessarily, right? If you think about the whole solar system as an object, it basically gets the same gravity. And so like the forces on the star are the same as the forces on the planets. Depends in detail on how close it comes to that supermassive black hole. Does it feel tidal forces? Is that black hole pulling the whole solar system apart? Or is it pushing on the entire thing together? Does the star have enough gravity to hang on to its planets? Okay, so you're saying that like some of the things that we've just talked about, when the sun gets ejected, it brings its planets with it and it forms a solar system in a new place.

36:19I think that's possible. I think it's more likely that they lose it because of the crazy physics involved, but it's not guaranteed. So some of those rogue stars probably do have planets. So hold off on stealing all of their energy, please, Kelly. Well, you know that I'm a skeptic in all things. So I don't suspect this will come up soon. But I would caution people to see if there are planets before you steal a sun's energy. Sounds like a good policy. All right. So let's take a break. When we come back, we'll talk about rogue planets out there without a galaxy or even without a star.

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39:10All right, we're back and we're talking about rogue planets. And so just to clarify, you were telling us a moment ago that suns can get ejected and sometimes they take their planets with them. We've never seen that because it's hard to see exoplanets, especially for really distant stars and the hypervelocity stars we've seen. We've never identified an exoplanet on a hypervelocity star, but it is possible. Okay, but when we were talking about rogue planets now, we're not talking about planets that got pulled with their star. We're talking about planets that got pushed away from their star and now they're all out on their own.

39:41Is that right? Yeah, exactly. So a rogue planet would be a planet inside the galaxy still, but without a star to call home, right? Because the galaxy is mostly empty. I mean, it looks pretty bright when you look up at the stars at night and you can see the Milky Way and there are lots and lots of stars out there. But most places in the galaxy are pretty far from any star. If you get like randomly dropped into a spot in the galaxy, the odds are you're not close to any star. That mostly you just see like distant stars around you. But you wouldn't consider yourself gravitationally bound or held by any star.

40:15But there'd probably be gas. There'd probably be gas. There's always gas. There's always gas. The one constant in life is gas. And radiation. And so think of these planets as like having the same relationship with the galaxy as our sun does, right? The sun orbits the center of the galaxy. You could also have a planet out there orbiting the center of the galaxy, not necessarily orbiting a star directly. So that's what we would call a rogue planet. So how do you get rogue planets then? So it's sort of the same process we talked about for stars, but in miniature. Like if two solar systems come near each other, then the stars can tug on each other's planets and cause gravitational instability.

40:51Our orbit around the star is pretty stable, like a little perturbation. We'll go back to our orbit. But it's not that stable. You give it a big enough push, we get the wrong direction. We are flying out of this solar system. And so it's certainly possible that a visitor can come and perturb our solar system and we could end up losing a planet. There's the existential dread I've come to expect from a Whiteson episode. Glad we got there. And also sometimes the planets form and it's pretty chaotic. Like we think of the solar system as very stable and chill. Everybody's driving around the stars, staying in their lane.

41:25But, you know, this is billions of years along. And earlier on, there was a lot of chaos. As the planets formed, they gravitationally interact with each other. And any system that has more than two objects in it is chaotic and hard to predict. We had like Saturn and Jupiter and we think another major gas giant in our solar system. And then Jupiter and Saturn moved in towards the center of the solar system. And then they got tugged by the other planet. and Jupiter and Saturn came back out. So they didn't like fall into the sun, but the other planet got ejected. And so this can happen that you have this complicated interaction between the planets or sometimes a neighboring star can perturb things.

42:06And you get a lot of planets actually thrown out of solar systems. So this isn't just when solar systems are initially forming. This could happen now. You should be worrying about it right now, Kelly. In fact, if you don't worry about it, it's more likely to happen. Oh my gosh, kissing bugs. planets getting ejected. It's a scary world. It mostly happens in the early days of a solar system, but it could happen. Yeah. If we have another star come and visit us really close, then absolutely you could scramble our solar system. And we've done a bunch of calculations and they suggest that like maybe 25 to 50 % of planets that get formed get ejected from stars.

42:44What? Holy cow. Exactly. Which kind of makes sense because it's not that easy to get everything arranged in the right angles and velocities and distances to stay in a stable orbit, especially when you've got other planets tugging on you. And so do these planets tend to get sucked into other solar systems eventually, or they're just off completely by themselves? They can be sucked into other solar systems, but a lot of them are just off by themselves because the galaxy is mostly empty. But yeah, you could end up being captured by another solar system, or if you're a tiny planet you can join the like huge crowd of frozen stuff at the outskirts of solar systems right so absolutely this can happen and for example like those interstellar visitors like atlas and omua i love the way you always say that right the first time which is totally different than how i say it these things are demonstrations of how that works right these things were formed around another star and then gravitationally somehow detached from that star sent through space and now hitting our solar system.

43:42And it's unlikely that they're going to get captured in our solar system and join our neighborhood. They're going to fly through and get slingshotted out in some other direction. But there's stuff out there that's formed by one solar system, ejected, and now flying through space, maybe interacting with other stars. And we think that there are a lot of planets that are like this. Is there any evidence that any of the planets in our solar system were thrown out of another one and ended up in ours? You're wondering if any planets are adopted? That's right. We love adoption. No, there's no evidence for that.

44:12And all the models suggest that the planets we have were formed here, but that there were some planets formed here that we've lost. Okay. Yeah. Are there any other ways? There are some other ways you might get a rogue planet. For example, if you have a star that's forming, but it's not enough mass to really have fusion. So it becomes like a sub-brown dwarf star. That's a star that isn't hot enough at its core to ignite real fusion. Sometimes you can get like a weaker version of fusion going, but sometimes they're in the middle. They're sort of like a super Jupiter, like a version of Jupiter that's really big, bigger than Jupiter, smaller than what you need to get fusion going.

44:48Lots of argument about whether this should be called a rogue planet because it's not really like a planet formed around a star and then ejected or like a failed star. So, you know, astronomers argue about names. Yeah, and those names carry baggage. Failed star. Would you rather be a rogue or a failure? Yeah, I'd rather be a rogue. Rogue, obviously. Yeah, that's way cooler. Rogue implies you chose this path. Right, exactly. I was never trying to be a star anyway, okay? That's right. And these are things that we can see out there in the galaxy. They're not nearly as far away as the hypervelocity intergalactic stars that we talked about.

45:27But they're harder to see because they're not bright, right? Stars emit light, so you can see distant stars pretty easily. Planets don't emit visible light, but they do emit in the infrared. Remember that everything that's out there in the universe that has a temperature, which is everything except for dark matter, glows at some frequency. And that frequency depends on the temperature. So the hotter you are, the higher the frequency. The colder you are, the lower the frequency. So Earth glows, for example, in the infrared. If you take night vision goggles, you can look down at the ground, you can see light being emitted from the surface.

45:58Just the way you can see light emitted from another person, and it's a different temperature. and that's how you can see like people at night or that's how those thermometers work that look at your forehead and deduce your temperature without touching you. They're measuring the frequency of infrared light and inverting that process to deduce what your temperature must be. So we can directly see planets using infrared telescopes because they glow in that particular wavelength. We can't use this technique to see exoplanets because they're usually like drowned out by their star. That is possible, but you can directly image rogue planets using like the WISE infrared telescope to see them in the IR, which is super cool.

46:36That is super cool. Is that the only way we see them? No, the most more common way is to see microlensing. Like you're looking at a star out in space and they shouldn't twinkle, right? Out in space, stars don't twinkle. That's an atmospheric effect we have on the ground. Out in space, they shouldn't twinkle. But if something passes between you and the star, like a little mini eclipse, they call this microlensing, then you can deduce that there was something there. And so you can look out into space and count how often like stars twinkle, essentially. And there's a project here called OGLE, Optical Gravitational Lensing Experiment.

47:08Awesome acronym, guys. And another one, MOA, Microlensing Observations in Astrophysics. And these things measure how often this happens. And then they do that same inversion step. They're like, well, we see 74 of these. How likely are we to see one if it's out there? What are the chances that the star and the planet arrange themselves in exactly the right way? and then they estimate how many there are out there in the universe. So if you detect microlensing, something has gotten in the way of your image, you've got a little eclipse going on, how do you know that that's an exoplanet and not like a big comet or something?

47:43Yeah, it's a great question. Essentially, we can only see this for bigger stuff. So like what's the difference between a big comet and a planet? Basically just the size, right? A comet is just a chunk of rock and ice anyway that's been ejected from a solar system. Like when you call Oumuamua or Atlas a comet or a planet, we just call them a comet because they're not as big as a planet. But we can only really see stuff that's like Jupiter-sized or a little bit smaller because otherwise it's too small to really eclipse the star. This is really cool. But one time they saw a Jupiter-sized free-floating planet and they think they saw a moon around that planet.

48:21What? So this is like an exomoon around a rogue planet. Oh, that's really cool. I want to visit. And this is due to the pattern of the eclipse as the lensing event happens. It doesn't look like just a sphere. It looks like a sphere plus another sphere in order to model the pattern of the light. Super cool. That's awesome. And we should see lots more of these. The Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope will measure the deflection of background star's position to determine rogue planet masses. So we have a lot of observations of rogue planets coming up in the future. But again, we think that rogue planets are not rare.

48:57We think that probably the Milky Way has billions of rogue planets, not like seven, not like 42, not 65 ,000, but billions of rogue planets. Whoa. Okay. And so, all right. So now we've got billions of data points, as I imagine them, out in space. Are they easier to study or harder to study than planets that are part of a solar system? Because I imagine they're not being like drowned out by their sun. On the other hand, maybe some light from a sun is helpful to view them. Like how? Tell me about studying these guys. Yeah, you basically nailed it. It's easier and harder. So it's easier in some ways because they're not drowned out by their star, but it's harder because that star can illuminate them.

49:39Like some studies we do in exoplanets require the light from that star. We can, for example, measure that light going through that planet's atmosphere and then use that to detect what's in the atmosphere of that star by which light's been absorbed and which light has not been absorbed. So that's a cool study you can do on an exoplanet around another star that you couldn't do on an exorogue planet. But exorogue planets, you could see their infrared light directly, which means you can do things like measure the surface temperature of that planet, you know, and understand what light it's emitting and all sorts of cool stuff.

50:10So, yeah, you can do different kinds of science. Amazing. So what other kinds of science can we do now that we figured out that there are rogue planets and rogue stars? Well, it really helps inform our model of solar system formation and galactic formation, right, to understand how this happens, because our models should predict this. Then we should go out and check it and see that we see the number of planets and stars that we are expecting. Remember, there's still a lot of uncertainty because a lot of the steps here do have direct observation to support them, but some of them have some extrapolation that relies on models, right?

50:41Like, what fraction of these things should we see? And so, you know, over the next few years, we'll get better and better, and these estimates with a firmer and firmer. But I think we can be confident in the bottom line that there are a lot of them. By the time this episode comes out, everybody should have their physical copy of Do Aliens Speak Physics in their hands, and they would have had at least a month to read it. And so I'm sure that you are all dreaming about aliens as much as I have been since reading the book. And so you're probably wondering, could life evolve on rogue planets? And what would it be like?

51:13And could they communicate with us? So Daniel, is there life on rogue planets? I certainly hope so because it would provide the kind of alternative aliens that I like thinking about in that book. Ways that aliens might have evolved that are very different from ours that would lead them to explore and understand the universe very differently. Imagine evolving on a planet like that where you have no seasons. You have no days, right? Because all these things require a star. The surface is going to be extraordinarily cold. The atmosphere might be snow. It just might freeze and fall to the surface.

51:45Wow. The whole top mile of an ocean could be frozen. So you're more likely to evolve underneath a very frozen ocean if you're kept warm by the internal geothermal of that planet. On Earth, something like 99.7 % of our energy comes from the sun. And so it'd be very difficult to evolve in that scenario. But if you do, you'd have a unique perspective on the universe for sure. It is really good to live on Earth, which I think is the message that we come to at the end of almost every episode where we talk about space. It is pretty solid to be right here. It is. I love that we get to live on Earth. It's a pretty cushy place to evolve.

52:26But I hope the aliens are out there and they've had a very weird experience because talking to scientists from that planet could give us a very different view on how the universe works. If you evolve on a rogue planet, maybe you're not interested in stars and you haven't focused on solar systems. You have a very different way of seeing the universe and the galaxy. Maybe you don't break it up into the same units that we do. And so you've come up with alternative explanations or gone down different paths, which of course could just inform our joint understanding of the universe. Well, I hope that one day we meet aliens from a rogue planet.

52:59And that they're not rogues. They're very friendly. That's right. That's right. But Daniel will meet them anyway, even if they're going to eat him, as long as he gets to ask them about physics first. That's right. Maybe they'll be part of the Extraordinaries. I hope so. How could they not be? All right. So thank you very much for going on this trip with us out into intergalactic space and into interstellar space to imagine where stars and planets could form. If you have questions about the universe, please don't be shy. Write to us. We love tackling your questions on the pod. And thanks to Steve for his question.

53:30Let's go to Steve and see what he thought of the episode. Yikes. One in five planets or stars are rogue? That is way higher odds than I would have given them. What I thought was a random idea is estimated to be quite common. Who would have thunk it? As you have pointed out, This is yet another example of our human bias when thinking about the universe. Thank you for the answer to my question. Now with this new knowledge, I'm hoping to see a hypervelocity star whiz by Earth sometime soon. Cheers!

54:09Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio. We would love to hear from you. We really would. We want to know what questions you have about this extraordinary universe. We want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions for future shows. If you contact us, we will get back to you. We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us at questions at danielandkelly.org. Or you can find us on social media. We have accounts on X, Instagram, Blue Sky, and on all of those platforms, you can find us at D &K Universe. Don't be shy. Write to us. Apple Vacations, where your story starts.

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