How to become a parasite

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25:53all right we are back and we are talking about a very intimate topic today we're talking about the incredible community of folks that live off of you that you are supporting your parasites and the parasites of everybody else on earth we're digging deep into the history to understand how often this happens, how it happens, why it happens, and what is the future of parasitism. So let's keep digging into the past. Kelly, tell us about how these things become parasites. How does a species decide from being a maker to becoming a taker? I love that phrasing. And the answer is really like, we don't have a great handle on this.

26:32So we talked about how this transition has happened probably more than 223 times. And there's this long-running belief in the community that what usually happens is that an organism starts specializing on dead stuff. So you go from a decomposer to a parasite. And the idea is you get good at living off of flesh when it's dead. And that sort of lowers the threshold to becoming a parasite and living on that thing and taking its energy while it's still alive. So first you identify like, hey, these corpses are rich in nutrients. I might as well eat them. and then you start eating the living versions of them?

27:09Yeah. And so my friend Dan Metz and I wrote a paper. He was leading this paper. I was just on the support team. But we wanted to find like the papers that showed this because this is a thing that you can see found in the literature for like 100 years or more. But when you look into the literature, it actually hasn't been tested that often. So I think a lot of us have this gut feeling that, you know, being a decomposer is the step before becoming a parasite. but folks really haven't done the nice kind of analyses you'd need where you'd need a tree of life you'd need to know who the free living organisms and the parasites are and you'd need to know what that free living organism was doing before the transition to parasitism and then look to see if certain kinds of free living organisms were more likely to transition to parasites and you need some control groups too and that requires a lot of natural history data and so you and i have talked in the past about, you know, the value of taxonomy and the value of going out and collecting information.

28:05And I think it's critical because a lot of times we'll want to do these sorts of analyses and then you'll get your tree of life together and you'll be like, oh, we have no idea what any of these species are doing in the wild. And so you can't ask these questions that really help us understand, you know, the paths that life take. You need that natural history data. And you always need data, right? Especially to check your intuitions. Yeah. Because, you know, Science is a story and we're putting together a history of what happened. And when we don't know, we're inclined to fill in with our intuition and say, well, here's an idea.

28:36Maybe this is reasonable. And if it sounds natural to us, we accept it. We're like, okay, yeah, I believe that. But sometimes the universe is not intuitive. So you always got to go out there and check, especially when you're telling a reasonable sounding story that doesn't have any actual data to support it. So more science, people, right? So much more science. Yes, so much more science. Okay, so we were talking a little bit earlier about why you would want to try to create boxes to describe what parasites are doing, what different animals are doing. And I was arguing that you need those boxes so that you can create models to help understand what's happening.

29:09And there's a couple of different folks who have come up with categories that they think keep popping up as strategies that parasites take. And I saw a quote in one of these papers that made me think, oh, man, this is for Daniel. Uh-oh. So here it is. This is from Poulin 2011. It seems safe to speculate that if life exists on other planets, as long as alien ecosystems show some basic similarities to ours, then parasitism will not only have evolved, but alien parasites would be using exploitation strategies very close to the ones defined here. Wow. Parasites in the universe. In space, space, space.

29:50So he was really going out on a limb here. Very strongly worded, he believes these categories explain like truths about paths taken by life. I think it's fascinating when scientists do that. When they find something here, they understand it, and then they say, this must be universal. We found it here and therefore it's everywhere. It seems like it could be the only way. And that so often just reveals like a lack of the broader context. Like you're within a certain set of box of ways of thinking about the universe. and it's hard to imagine outside that box, doesn't mean that outside the box doesn't exist.

30:23And like, as I was just saying, like this is why we got to go and find alien parasites and blow earthling parasitologist minds about ways that you can suck on other people, right? There may be even more intimate ways to be a parasite we never even imagined. Totally true. As you know, and that's why I wrote this whole book about how aliens might do science trying to think outside the box. Daniel, what is that book called? It's called Do Aliens Speak Physics? and it's for sale in November. Check it out. At all fine bookstores. Yeah, no, it is a fantastic book. I got to read it. So I love that this parasitologist is thinking about aliens, but I'm a little skeptical that our earthly categories of parasites are the only ones in the universe.

31:03But anyway, walk us through the kinds of parasites we have found here on Earth. And everybody out there, if you're eating dinner, maybe finish up before you dig into all of these intimate details. Okay. So one of the exciting things about these strategies is that organisms from very different locations on the tree of life seem to have ended up with very similar strategies, which suggests that there's something critical about these boxes that we're creating. So one of the strategies, which we've already talked about, is parasitoids. So the idea here is that you infect one host species, you use all of its energy, you have to kill it as part of your life cycle.

31:41And so we get parasitic wasps that do this. We get nematomorphs. So these are sort of nematode looking things that live in crickets. So have you ever seen that video of a cricket that jumps into a pool and a worm that's like 10 times the length of the cricket, maybe even more glides out of its back end? Nightmare fuel. Yes. Absolute nightmare fuel. There's one with the praying mantis also, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So sometimes those animals survive actually after they jump into the water, which blows my mind because you would think something that big comes out of you. You're a goner. Yeah.

32:16I think that some mornings, yes. Oh, God.

32:22There's an intimate detail for everybody. That's right. Intimate. I hope not durable. I hope we can all forget that. Okay. So you get those like wormy things that eat almost everything inside of the organism. And it's kind of amazing because they've managed to take everything from the organism without killing it. So they're able to like avoid the critical organs, but all the like fat has been slurped out. Anything that's not absolutely critical has been slurped out and turned into parasite. And those zombie ants that you see, the cordyceps fungus, they also are exhibiting a parasitoid strategy.

32:55They kill the ant and then they use all of that energy to make their own babies. So explain to me the word here, parasitoid, because as a non-expert, I hear that and I think that's sort of like a quasi-parasite or a semi-parasite or something. Oid makes me think like, not quite. What does the word mean, parasitoid? This is a great question. I think the original phrase came from a German scientist. And that doesn't necessarily mean that like their prefixes and suffixes meant something different. You're right. I'm looking up Merriam-Webster and the first definition of parasitoid is resembling a parasite, which must be the oid thing.

33:32The way that like our jokes resemble humor, but aren't always right on the money. You know, it's humeroid. That's right. That's right. We're humeroid kind of podcast, which sounds maybe too close to hemorrhoid. But so a lot of intimate jokes today. Yes. Right. So many. My guess would be and I this is total spitball. OK, so there are no parasitoids that infect humans. And so I think that when we think of parasites, we think of things that are like living in your gut or, you know, like we think of the kind of parasites that we have. And so it's possible that when parasitoid was first named, they were like, oh, like it's living in another thing.

34:13We're familiar with that. But then it like kills them and bursts out of them. And this is something different. So let's call it parasitoid. And I'm totally spitballing. You have asked me yet another question. I don't know the answer to, but I'm going to double down on my answer. All right. So these guys don't live in humans. They infect their host, slurp up all the crucial bits, and then eventually kill them. Yep. That's a strategy. All right. And so if that wasn't gross enough for you, let's hear about the next category, which I shiver to even say, parasitic castrators. Yes. Lovely. So they don't kill the hosts, but they do reduce their evolutionary fitness to zero.

34:54So essentially they make it so that that organism will never be able to pass down its genes again. It won't be able to have any more of its babies. Oh, how sad. But now the parasites get to live. cute little parasite babies you know the parasite i studied for my phd has these two little eye spots and it has uh like a a little suckery kind of mouth that opens and closes and by the end of my very long phd it took a really long time to finish i kind of thought that they were cute so i am capable of thinking some parasites are cute they've infected your brain see they're working their magic on you that's right that's right so tell us about what these guys do all All right.

35:31So at the top of the show, we talked about those snails where a bunch of the biomass of those snails is actually going towards the production of parasite babies. That's an example of castration. All of the energy that would have gone towards making snail babies is now making parasite babies. And those snails can live for like, I think it's like a decade after getting infected. And sometimes when the tide comes in on a warm day, they can release up to 2000 of those parasites into the water column. And so we think of them as essentially like extended versions of parasites at that point. They're not working towards their own evolutionary goals anymore.

36:04Also, side note, the parasites that live in the snails have social behaviors. Like, you know how ant communities have different jobs for the different ants and the ants have different shapes? Yeah. You've got like a million mile stare right now. Is this too much? No, I'm thinking about ants. Oh, all right. Okay. I was thinking about that time they poured aluminum into an ant farm. I was trying to remember the shape of it. That's a mean but informative way of getting that information. Okay, so ants have individuals who have different jobs and they have different shapes. And they have some individuals who never have their own offspring.

36:41Their job is just to support the colony. The same thing is happening inside of these snails. So there are attacker morphs that are essentially just like giant mouths that go around. And when a parasite tries to invade the snail, because sometimes a new parasite species will come in, invade a snail that already has parasites living in there. And it could kick out the parasites that are living in there and then take over the gonad. So it's like parasite versus parasite battle inside the snail. Yes. Wow. Yes. And some kinds of trematode parasites have essentially these mouths that never reproduce on their own.

37:14Their whole job is to just patrol the snail. And if a parasite comes in, they go and they suck a hole into the side of the tree with toad and like suck out the insides and kill it that way. Wow. This is like gang violence. This is our territory. Yes. Yeah. They have like more interesting social lives than I do. They're fascinating. How high bar is that, Kelly? Tell me. Oh, my God. It's like it's like on the ground. You don't have to lift your foot up much at all. I don't go out much. But anyway, okay. Parasitic castrators, trematodes. Let's do one other example. There are barnacles. And so like if you've been to the ocean, you've probably seen barnacles.

37:51There are barnacles that stick to the sides of like whales and turtles. There are also barnacles and isopods. These are these little crustacean things that are both able to castrate crustaceans like crabs. So the barnacle in particular does this very interesting thing where it has a sack where female crabs would usually have their babies. And it sets up shop there. And females usually will use their claws. So this is on like the underside of what you'd think of as like the crab's belly. They use their claws to like pass water over it to make sure that their eggs stay oxygenated. They will do that when the barnacle's down there to keep the barnacle oxygenated.

38:28And males will start doing that too. So it looks like not only do they castrate male and female crabs, but they get the males to start acting like females to take care of the barnacles. We call this feminization. And it's kind of poorly understood. But anyway, so barnacles are castrating crabs. Trematodes are castrating snails. And there's insects castrating other insects. This is another very common strategy. You just said the word castrating way too many times for my comfort. Let's move on. All right. There's a total of six categories, but rather than making you all sit through all six, let's pick one more to give you a flavor of the amazing strategies that parasites have taken on.

39:13Let's do vector transmitted parasites because that sounds physics-y. Vectors. Ooh, all right. Well, you can try to connect this with physics at the end. We'll see. But so what we mean by vector transmitted is that you have one animal that is bringing a parasite to another animal and essentially injecting it into that other animal. Probably the most famous vector transmitted parasite is malaria. So mosquitoes will take a blood meal from a person who has malaria. They suck the parasite up. The parasite does some developing inside of the mosquito and eventually goes to live in the mosquito's salivary glands.

39:48And then when a mosquito goes to take a blood meal from another human who isn't infected yet, the parasite ends up in that person's blood. And then that person gets infected and the cycle starts again. I think it's fascinating you call this a blood meal. It makes it sound so wholesome, you know, like it's just going home to have dinner after a long day of work. You know, it deserves it. But like, this thing is sucking my blood. You know, I've read stories from the early 1900s in the Journal of Parasitology where they sort of mentioned in an offhanded way that like the mosquitoes and the lice in the colonies were fed blood meals by volunteers, which means somebody was like sticking their arms in the mosquito cage.

40:26Anna Phillips was telling us in the Leech episode that now you can like fill medical gloves up with blood from, you know, a hospital or something and feed them that way. But I love the faces you make when we talk about parasites. It's so entertaining for me. But, you know, if I can tell you my big goal here, I feel like when you start learning about parasites, you can't get over the disgust hump. It's just like so upsetting. But the more you learn about it, this doesn't happen for everybody, but maybe you'll get there. I feel like the more you learn about it, the more kind of amazing it is that evolution has resulted in this super complicated strategy.

41:04Like, I mean, imagine being able to live in environments as different as a mosquito and a human, like to conquer both of those hosts in a way that like human ingenuity has just not been able to outsmart. There's good evidence that malaria is able to essentially like change the proteins on the outside so that our immune system can't recognize it. Like we start to get a handle on it and then it shows up again in like a whole different outfit. And our body's like, where did the malaria go? But it's still there. And it's like racing us. And, you know, we have we've created all of these vaccines that keep, you know, not quite keeping up.

41:38These are kind of incredible creatures. You can hate them. And I wish there was no malaria because I don't want to see any child with malaria ever again. But you kind of have to respect sort of the amazing strategies that they've been able to come up with with the help of natural selection. Yeah, I totally appreciate you leaning into the wonders of the universe. And that's our whole brand, and the universe is extraordinary, and these things are incredible. And I guess I'll try to think about that next time I see a mosquito biting me. I'll be like, wow, think about all the amazing science going into this itch that I'm going to be suffering for the next three days.

42:12Well, that's a micro predator, Daniel. I'm not interested.

42:18Just kidding. All right, so let's take another break. And when we come back, let's hear some good news about how parasites can go extinct.

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44:46Okay, we're back. And Kelly is grossing me out with intimate details of how parasites infect their hosts, castrate them, and pass on diseases. Yay, we're all supposed to think. Yay! So let's turn to some good news. We heard about how parasites have evolved many, many times in the record. Do parasites also go extinct? Do we have evidence for parasites disappearing? How does that happen? They do go extinct. And so, you know, we talked about how parasitism as a strategy popped up, you know, over 200 times in the tree of life. It appears it's also been lost a few times. Oh. I know. Sometimes it's hard to get a handle on those losses because if an animal loses it and then it doesn't end up in the fossil record, it can just be kind of complicated.

45:30But, yeah, parasites go extinct. And, in fact, some parasites are more susceptible to extinction than their hosts. And I know that's not sad for you, but we're losing diversity. So one parasite strategy that we didn't talk about in the last section are trophically transmitted parasites. What does trophic mean? So like think about trophic levels in a food web. And so trophic transmission is essentially a predator consumes an animal that was infected and the parasite gets into the predator. So the trophically transmitted system I studied for my Ph.D. was California killifish. They're these small fish in Southern California estuaries and they get eaten by predatory birds like egrets.

46:09and the parasite goes from living on top of the fish's brain to living in the egret's gut. I wouldn't want to live in either of those places. I mean, you're in Southern California. There's lots of beautiful places to live. Why would you choose a fish brain? But hey, you do you. I mean, I'd rather live in Virginia, but that's all right. So everyone knew that was coming. But this parasite actually has an even more complicated life cycle. So parasites can have different strategies depending on where they are in the life cycle. So there you've got trophic transmission from fish to bird. The parasites then find love in the bird's gut and they make eggs that pass with the bird's feces into the salt marsh where they're accidentally consumed by those snails that we talked about that get castrated.

46:52And then. This is such a horror movie. This whole thing is a horror movie. I love it. I eat it up. My mom loved horror movies. Maybe that's what set me up for all of this. It's her fault. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, in order for this parasite, this tremutoed parasite, to complete its life cycle, you need to have the fish, you need to have the birds, and you need to have the snail. If you lose any of those hosts in the cycle or any of them falls to numbers that are small enough where it's hard for the parasite to find them, then that animal can go extinct. And so parasites have all of these extra requirements that depend on what's happening with their hosts.

47:27And so in some cases, we think that parasites might be more susceptible to extinction than a lot of free living animals because there's so many different components that need to work well for the parasite to complete the life cycle. It's kind of a fragile system. A bit of a fragile system. And so parasites can be used as what we call ecological indicators. So if you go to an estuary and you find a lot of parasites, that probably means a lot of host species are there and they're there in pretty high numbers. And so a lot of parasites can be indicative of a healthy ecosystem, which I think is counterintuitive to some people, but makes perfect sense to my parasitologist heart.

48:02Like if you go to a new neighborhood and you discover there's lots of gangs there, you're like, oh, wow, this must have a thriving economy for the gangs to be siphoning money off of.

48:14Wow. Where do I go with that? I mean, I guess it means that the police aren't really doing their job, which maybe means there's immune systems and hosts that are compromised, perhaps by pollutants. But maybe we're pulling this analogy a little bit too tight. So let's move on. All right. So they do go extinct and maybe even more often than their host because they rely on like a complex system and getting passed from one to the other. But then they're everywhere and they're very common and they've evolved many, many times. How do we understand that altogether? I mean, there's a lot of hosts also and you can be losing a lot of hosts, but you still look around and there's a lot of birds outside and stuff.

48:48It's just, you know, hard to keep track of all of this stuff. But if I can just for one second try to convince you that you should care about parasites going extinct and I won't. You can try. So parasites are important parts of ecosystems. So we mentioned that those snails that are castrated can release up to 2000 parasites into the water. Those parasites are free swimming bags of energy that get eaten by a lot of organisms. So they provide food to the system. Also, you know, we talked about those crickets that have those long worms in them, and the crickets are forced into jumping into the river, and then the worms, the nematomorphs, come out the back of them.

49:25Those crickets are terrestrial organisms that jump into creeks. And in Japan, there's this endangered trout where a lot of the food that it gets comes from crickets that are jumping into the creek that they wouldn't have access to otherwise. And so these parasites often make lots of food available to other animals or make that food easier to catch. They play important roles in ecosystems that we don't always understand very well. And if you lose them, that could be bad in some cases. Yeah, I totally appreciate that. And it's sort of curious to me, like, why do parasites have this ick factor that like predators don't, you know, like a jaguar, it's still like finding another critter and taking it and eating its resources.

50:05Why is it somehow grosser to be like living inside as you consume somebody? For some reason, it is definitely grosser, though, like morally, it's not any better or worse. So I don't know, there's just some sort of like human ick factor there. And maybe when we meet the aliens, they'll be like, yay, parasites. And Kelly would be like, I found my people. That's right. That's right. I understand you guys. You know, I agree. There's definitely a judgment call. People think of parasites as like these super degenerate organisms. They have fewer sort of abilities to like sense the exterior environment.

50:35But they do manage to thrive in really complicated systems where they're being attacked. And yeah. Anyway, people do tend to find parasites to be much closer than lions. I get that some people could look at a lion and be like, that looks much nicer than a tapeworm. But if you know what to look for in a tapeworm, some of them are quite beautiful. I've got my tapeworm picture right here. Oh, wow. Do you know anybody who has a coat made out of tapeworms or something like that? Maybe we need the fashion industry to replace fur with parasites somehow. I think that any parasite themed fashion that is available is found at the American Society of Parasitologists student travel auction.

51:15We bring it in and we all pay way too much for it to try to pay for student travel so that they can come to our conferences. But anyway, we're getting off track. We've got one more question from the listener. And the question is, do parasites go extinct with hosts? So there's a number of different things that can happen when hosts go extinct or when hosts sort of split into multiple species. And so, yes, often when a host goes extinct, the parasite can go extinct also. If the parasite was infecting lots of other host species, then maybe it will be fine. But we already talked about complex life cycles where if you lose one host in the system, you can lose the parasite too.

51:49But there's also examples where you get these splits in the tree of life. And as you get those splits in the hosts, the parasites also split into new species over time. Because you now get like separations of parasite populations and over enough time, they become their own species. And so there's a sort of famous example where pelicans, as they sort of speciated over time, their lice speciated with them. So pelicans, if you like create the tree of life for pelicans and then you create the tree of life for their lice, you could almost lay them on top of each other. They follow very similar paths.

52:23But you can also get cases where the parasites don't seem to be tracking what's happening with their hosts. So for example, guppies, these tiny little fish, they get infected by monogenians. These are these external parasites we were talking about that have the hooks and they hold on to the outside of the fish. They don't seem to be following the evolutionary trajectory of their hosts. And right now we don't have a really good framework for when you should expect the tree of life for parasites and species to essentially mirror one another and when you shouldn't. But we get all of these different options because nature is amazing and it depends.

52:58But we don't always know on what. An incredible variety of strategies we see helps us explore like the space of possibilities and maybe even helps us think outside the box to like what might be happening elsewhere in the universe. Absolutely. Yes, I would love to find a planet that was rich with free living hosts and dissect a bunch of them to see if they have parasites. But only if it was humane and ethical. All right, aliens, if you're listening, come on by. Kelly wants to look inside you. Kelly wants to say hi. In an intimate sort of way. All right. Well, thank you so much to Zach for sending in his questions.

53:35Let's see if Zach feels like we've answered the many questions he posed about the evolution of parasitism. Hey there, Extraordinaries. Thank you so much for this incredible primer on parasites and their history. I feel like I got way more than I bargained for, which is awesome. You definitely answered my essential question that yes, T-Rex probably had tapeworms or something like it that we can't be totally sure. I also really enjoyed hearing about all the different categories of parasite strategies, and really appreciated hearing that there are no parasitoids or castrating parasites for humans, so I can sleep a little better at night.

54:11I was also definitely convinced that parasites have an important role to play in our ecosystems, so I'll try to be a little bit more appreciative and a little less grossed out. I am still a little curious. Seems like it's still an open question how something goes from being a free-living organism to being a parasite, even if we can count when it happens. I'm also curious if anything has ever gone from being a parasite back to being a free-living organism. In any case, you guys rock. Thank you again so much. All right. Thank you so much to Zach for all of his many questions. If you would like to send us questions, we would love to hear from you.

54:47Send them to questions at danielandkelly.org. And I hope that you enjoy your meal or you ate it before we began this conversation. And before you heard Kelly say the word castrate, uncountable number of times. I don't think there's a limit on how many times you can say castrate. It's a great word. All right, everyone. Thanks for joining us on this tour of one more aspect of our extraordinary universe.

55:16Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio. We would love to hear from you. We really would. We want to know what questions you have about this extraordinary universe. We want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions for future shows. If you contact us, we will get back to you. We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us at questions at danielandkelly.org. Or you can find us on social media. We have accounts on X, Instagram, Blue Sky, and on all of those platforms, you can find us at D &K Universe. Don't be shy. Write to us. One last thing before you go.

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