Listener Questions #13

25:11Roger Penrose is famous for thinking about black holes and the structure of space-time. And he came up with a cute little diagram to draw the whole universe in like a little square where infinities are like squeezed down into the corners so you can draw things nicely. And they're called Penrose diagrams. You can Google them and see them. They're a little hard to wrap your mind around. And we're not going to try to explain them today. But these diagrams do inspire the concept of white holes. because if you look at the diagram, the whole universe is like a diamond and black holes are on one side and you can ask, hmm, what could be on the other side?

25:44And so it's just sort of like, hey, let's ask questions about this diagram. And is it possible there's something there we hadn't considered the way you might be like, oh, there are positive numbers. Could there be negative numbers? Oh, there are particles. Could there be antiparticles? It's just like this search for symmetry in the universe and wondering. And then people realized, well, there's really nothing preventing that. Like in principle, you could have a region of space that nothing could enter, but things could escape from. And the way to think about it in terms of these Penrose diagrams is just some region of space where you can get messages from, but you could never reach.

26:19And that seems really weird, but I have two sort of ways to think about it for you. Number one is to just reverse the black hole. Like if you think about black holes, not as a big blob of stuff pulling in on you really, really hard with its gravity, but literally a rearrangement of space so space only points in so that no matter what you do, you are moving towards the center. Remember that black holes and gravity are all about the shape of space itself, not forces on stuff within space. Now just reverse that. Imagine a point in space where space points outwards and the only way you can go is out.

26:53There is no in, right? There's only motion outwards. So if you accept that black holes are space pointed in, then white holes are just space pointed out. So for white holes, nothing can get in, but stuff can come out. Where is the stuff that comes out coming from? Great question. Did the gut get filled for the white hole? Great question. And in general, general relativity has no answer to that, right? It doesn't predict anything that could come out. It could be that nothing comes out. It could be that green eggs and ham comes out, right? General relativity has no idea what could come out in general.

27:29However, there are some theories that connect white holes and black holes via a wormhole. And say, for example, if you have a black hole where things go in and then you have like basically a tube that connects it to a white hole, things come out the white hole after they've gone in the black hole. And so in that sense, a black hole and a white hole are two ends of a one directional wormhole transit. And so things come out the white hole that fell in the black hole, but you can't go the other direction. Right. So I'm tempted to ask how many anuses that means the universe has. Poor Sammy. Well, that would be one, right?

28:03Because you can think about your digestive system as a tube, right? There's an in and an out and usually one direction. But there's more than one black hole in the universe, right? So there's more than one anus. That's true. And we don't think that all black holes are connected to white holes, right? Some of them just eat stuff. There's no anus there at all. It just gets bigger and bigger and maybe eventually explodes like a face mite on your face. I don't know. Love these connections. Yeah. So that's sort of the concept of white holes. Another way to think about white holes that's maybe easier to grapple with is try to imagine a region of the universe where you can get messages from, but you could never send messages to.

28:40And that seems contradictory. Like, how could you do that? But actually that exists in our universe already. It's our cosmic horizon. Like there are galaxies out there that sent us photons, but they are now past our cosmic horizon because of the expansion of the universe. If we shot a photon at them, it would never reach them. So there's a whole region of the universe where photons have escaped. They've come from there, but they can't go to there. So I'm not saying that everything outside the observable universe is a white hole, but it's just sort of a way for you to get a handle on what are we talking about.

29:13Okay, so I've absorbed a lot of information and my brain is a box and it's overflown and some has started to fall out. So I think you've already said this. But just to confirm, white holes are not anything that's really supported by physics theory. It's more of a thought experiment that arose out of a way that we decided to portray the way the universe could look. But that could have just been a result of our artistic way of trying to explain things. It could be, yes. It could also be that we're exploring the true nature of the universe and discovering it in our minds before we discover it in the universe, the same way we did with black holes.

29:48People thought exactly the same thing about black holes before we found them. They were like, well, that's cute, but it's just a mathematical oddity. I'm sure that doesn't actually exist out there in the universe. That would be bonkers. And then, of course, we found them. And so sometimes mathematically exploring the corners of our minds can reveal the true nature of the universe, which is amazing and philosophically deep and incredible and really kind of as close as you get to a spiritual moment, I think, in cosmology. Yeah. Yeah, I'll give you that. That's incredible. So everything you said is true, but I think the implication that therefore is probably not really out there, I think, is a question mark.

30:25All right. So can you remind me, what was Sammy's question in particular? So Sammy was like, if you replace the sun with a white hole, what would it look like? Oh. And before we get to that, we have to consider one more idea about white holes, because white holes, again, a broad topic. So we've talked about white holes as sort of like inverse black holes, region of space time that you can escape and not enter, or maybe the back end of a wormhole. But there's one more version, which is the quantum version of a white hole. What's that? And this suggests that there are no black holes, actually, that the things we see out there in the universe that look like black holes are actually just slowly collapsing stars.

31:02Because in regions of very high mass, time slows down, right? We talked about time dilation many times. And so perhaps what's happening is stars are collapsing, but time is slowed down so much that it looks like a black hole. It's just a very, very slowly collapsing star. And there are folks out there like Carlo Rovelli, who thinks that it's not actually going to collapse all the way to a singularity, quantum mechanics will somehow prevent that from happening, push it back and invert it. And eventually a black hole sort of bounce back and turn into something which emits all of its mass. Wow. So this is Carlo Rovelli's concept of a white hole.

31:39Ah, okay. Yeah. All right. Very cool. And so we've talked about three different ways to get white holes or three different ways of thinking about it. Does each one of them give a different answer to Sammy's question? Yeah, absolutely. It does. So, you know, if white holes are just some region of space that you can't escape and you replace the sun with a white hole, then like maybe nothing would come out, right? There's no prediction for anything to come out. It just depends on what happened to be in that region of space in the deep, deep past before it formed, right? And so probably nothing. If the white hole that we put in the center of our solar system is the back end of a wormhole, then what comes out depends on what's going in that black hole.

32:20If there are aliens out there and they're treating that black hole as like a cosmic dumpster, they're like making really dangerous elements in their crazy experiments and they're dumping it in a black hole for their safety. We're going to be the cosmic dumping yard of some alien physicist, which could be amazing. Like, wow, you could see some cool stuff come out of that white hole. Serves us right, too, though. Or it could be really bright. You know, like what if that black hole eats a star or something like an enormous amount of radiation? could come out of it. Nice. Or it could be just like weird alien leftovers.

32:55Who knows? I would eat weird alien leftovers. Give it a shot. If I had to choose between weird alien leftovers and wartycomb jelly on toast, I'm not sure what I would choose. Yeah, it'd be a tough decision. So what about Carlo Rivelli's vision of a white hole? Yeah. So if white holes are actually slowly collapsing black holes that then reverse, then you're going to get something with an enormous amount of radiation. It's going to be very, very bright. And one of the inspirations for white hole research is that there are things in the universe that are very bright that we don't understand. Things like gamma ray bursts, these very short-lived, incredibly bright waves of gamma rays, very high energy photons.

33:39Nothing in the universe we know about can make them, and yet we see them. And people wonder like, oh, maybe those are white holes. People also talk about, you know, the Big Bang maybe being the result of a white hole in the early universe because people like thinking about cyclical universes, like the whole universe turns into a singularity and then bounces back into a big white hole. Anyway, Sammy, the answer is we don't know if white holes are real. And if they are, it depends on which flavor of white hole you get. Do you think that Sammy wanted to know what would happen to Earth if the sun was replaced by a white hole?

34:11Or what would it be like if the sun was replaced by a white hole? I think in all of these situations, Earth is toast. Earth is not in a great shape in any of these situations. And in many cases, the white hole has mass also. So you could continue to orbit it while you're getting fried with alien cosmic junk. Thumbs down. All right. What do you think, Sammy? I prefer if the sun is not replaced with a white hole. Although, that end of a wormhole idea does sound pretty cool.

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36:49All right, our last question comes from Rhonda and is about humpback whales. Hey, Daniel and Kelly, it's Rhonda and I live in North Alabama. I was recently scrolling through the Internet and saw a whale of a tale about how whales migrate. They were saying that whales migrate because the bacteria in the bumps in their back align with magnetic north. I was just wondering if you might be able to clarify that a little bit. Let me know if it's true. Huge fan of the show. Love you guys. And thank you so much for feeding my curiosity. Whoa, this is a great question, Rhonda. I was super excited to have the opportunity to dig into navigation for humpback whales.

37:31A little bit of background. there are humpback whales at both of the poles. They tend to feed in polar regions. And for example, Antarctica has loads of this crustacean called krill that they eat. And you find it in really high densities there. So they go to the polar regions to feed. And then when it comes time to have babies, they head up to the tropics where the water is warmer and shallower. We think maybe those are better baby nursery conditions. So they head up there to breed. And then when the babies are old enough, They head back down to the cold areas where their food is found in high abundances.

38:05So this is similar to how birds migrate, but it's just much more massive and underwater. Yes, exactly. And I mean, incredibly long distances. Imagine going from, you know, Antarctica to the tropics. Like, that's a huge distance. And they often make very straight line paths. And so it's been for a long time a question. How do they remember, you know, when they're very young, when they make this journey for the first time, how do they remember where they've gone and how they go back to the same place? And how do they go there without like, you know, I get lost when I go to the grocery store sometimes.

38:34Like, how do they not get lost? It is a super fascinating question. I heard that these whales move in a straight line relative to the earth rather than relative to the water, right, which requires some kind of navigation. Because, you know, no matter what the currents are, they find a way to follow the path, which suggests that maybe they know where they are on the earth, which is amazing. It's crazy. But let me just take a step back to talk about why it's so hard to answer this question in humpback whales. So if you were asking this question in pigeons, for example, you could take a pigeon from one place.

39:08And if you thought that maybe they were paying attention to some queue in the northern hemisphere, you could transport them to the southern hemisphere and then see how they change their behavior. If they thought they were paying attention to magnetic fields, you could like, I don't know, stick a giant magnet on their back that confused them and then look to see do they get lost. if you thought they were looking for visual cues. You could, you know, put them in a giant arena and move the cues around and see how that messed things up. And then you could do other things like, you know, could put blindfolds on them.

39:37And if you think that they're just, you know, responding to magnetic fields or something. But with humpback whales, they're endangered or at least they're threatened. I can't remember what their status is right now, but you can't do any of those things to them. You can't move them to the other hemisphere. You can't poke their eyes out. You shouldn't poke their eyes out. You can't do the kinds of manipulative experiments that you'd need to really try to nail this stuff down. So the best that we can do at the moment is we can look at old records for where humpback whales were killed in the era where whaling was popular.

40:11And now that we have technology for tracking animals, you can put trackers on them and you can follow their movements over time. And then you can collect data on how their movements are correlated to things that you think might be important for navigation. So we basically have to wait for natural experiments, like if the magnetic poles flip or if the currents change or the visual conditions change, we can look to see how it affects the whales. But we can't induce those changes ourselves. Right. And unfortunately, humans are doing some of those experiments now. So one of the things we think they cue into is water temperatures or following certain currents or certain salinities.

40:46And as global climate change is happening, that's impacting water temperatures and that's impacting where currents go. So and I guess the good news is that for humpback whales, these changes are relevant to their smaller movements. So it's relevant to where their food sources are as their food sources, for example, maybe track certain water temperatures. But even as all of this stuff is changing, they are still taking pretty straight line paths up to their breeding ground, which suggests that that's not the main cue that they're using. So even as this changes, they're still getting to where they need to go.

41:18So one of the leading hypotheses is that the Earth's magnetic fields are being used by these giant whales to try to figure out where they're going to go. And Daniel, I should tell you that while I was writing this outline, I just assumed that you would be able to explain these to us. And I didn't give you the heads up or research it ahead of time. Was I right? You actually were right. I'm really fascinated by this. And there's folks in my department here at UC Irvine, biophysicists who study this question of how birds migrate, for example, which is a very similar question. And one of the leading hypotheses has to do with quantum mechanics, actually.

41:56There's like a protein inside birds' eyeballs, which has two different states. And it flips back and forth between these two states. And the rate at which it flips depends on the magnetic field. So this is a thing which actually does happen. And so in principle is a mechanism by which an animal could sense a magnetic field. Because we don't think humpback whales or Canadian geese are building little compasses and strapping them to their bodies as cute as that would be. They need some sort of biological mechanism. What we don't know is if that's really the mechanism. This is something inside their body that's happening.

42:32We don't know if it's connected to their sensory organs or somehow to their brain to allow them to somehow like see or experience these fields or actually even use them in their navigation. There's a newer hypothesis that there are bacteria that also respond to magnetic fields and they sort of align themselves with magnetic north. And the idea here is that you'd have these bacteria and then the animals would have some way of sensing what the bacteria are doing. And this is what the listener was referring to. But actually, what I had imagined you would explain was, why does Earth have magnetic fields in the first place?

43:08Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. It's a little bit of a mystery. I mean, we know that magnetic fields are generated by charges in motion, right? Like, give an electron, it just generates an electric field. You move the electron, you give it a velocity, you get a magnetic field, which is already kind of mind-bending because it means that, like, whether the electron has a magnetic field around it is frame-dependent. You know, like I'm holding an electron. I see it has an electric field. You whiz by me in a car, you see that electron having a magnetic field. So we like disagree about whether there's a magnetic field there, which is crazy.

43:42Yeah. That's a whole fascinating story about the development of special relativity. But anyway, charges in motion generate magnetic fields. There are no magnetic charges in the universe that we know about that could just generate a magnetic field while sitting there. So most of the magnetic fields are generated either by like electrons spinning, that quantum version of motion can generate a little magnetic field, or you have the electron itself is like flowing in a current. And so what's flowing underneath our feet? Well, there's lots of rock and metal in motion underneath our feet. And we think that that motion is probably generating the magnetic field, but we don't totally understand it.

44:17The magnetic field is weird and not reliable. The poles flip and flip in an irregular way. Like sometimes every 50 ,000 years, sometimes once a million years, the poles are always migrating a little bit. And sometimes they're like, you know, north and south will flip, which is weird. Meanwhile, like in the sun, it's super regular. Every 11 years, the sun flips its magnetic field. And this has to do with like currents of plasma going through the sun. Again, not totally understood. So roughly we think it's flowing currents within the earth, but there's lots of detailed questions we don't know the answers to.

44:49All right. Well, so the idea here is that either through the bacteria that live with the whales or different senses that there are organs that they have in their body that have not yet been identified. They're able to sense these magnetic fields and follow them from one place to another. And there's some good evidence that this has happened. For example, whales tend to get stranded more often during solar storms. And what they think is happening here is that when there's a solar storm, it's messing with the whale's ability to sense the Earth's magnetic fields. So it's not that it's messing with the Earth's magnetic fields.

45:24It's just sort of giving the wrong information to whatever the whale is using to figure out where the magnetic fields are. And so whales are more likely to get stranded. Essentially, the idea here is that they're not able to read the Earth's magnetic lines anymore. And so they end up in places where they're not supposed to be. So that's really interesting. And it sort of suggests that whales are using the magnetic field or that something else about these solar storms might be affecting their senses. Do we know anything about the history of whale migration as the magnetic fields shift? I did find a paper that tracked humpback whales over a 15-year period.

46:00And during that period, there were pretty significant shifts in the magnetic fields. And even in years where there were shifts, the whales were going on the same paths in essentially a straight line. So these shifts didn't seem to move them off course, which suggests that it's not just the electric field. Maybe it's the electric field plus some other things that they're using to correct themselves. But it does make it look like this is not the whole story. Could they be using just visual cues like, hey, turn left to this canyon and then go around this underwater mountain? Could they just have like amazing memories?

46:31They could. They could have amazing memories. They also often travel with other individuals. So, you know, like sometimes when I think I'm lost, I'll never ask that because that would just make it worse. But like if I'm, you know, if I'm in the car with a friend, I'll be like, you know, oh, do you remember Chase Bank being on that side of us last time or should it be on the other side? Are we going the wrong way? And so, you know, whales traveling with friends might use each other. And additionally, whale calls can be heard over very great distances. And so it could be that they can, you know, hear that like Frank is way up ahead and they're just following the noises that Frank makes or Fran.

47:06And so it could be a combination of noticing landmarks, you know, sharing information with each other and then listening to the sounds of the seas to get to where they're going. Is there any chance that they're like popping up to the surface and opening their eyeballs and like using the stars to navigate? There have been some folks who have proposed that. They think it's more likely that they might be using cues from the sun than cues from the stars. We don't know that whale vision would allow them to see the stars with the level of detail that you would need to navigate by it. And so there are folks who are interested in that question, but I'd say at the moment that's a pretty hotly debated topic in the field and there's not a clear consensus.

47:44Although I do absolutely love the idea of the humpback whales navigating by the stars. That's beautiful. That would be gorgeous. Well, what if they're just really good at dead reckoning? What if they don't need navigational cues? They're just like, I know I swim in this direction for 45 minutes and then I turn and I swim in that direction. It's hard to conceive of. I mean, imagine like driving to your friend's house, like across country with your eyes closed. Yeah. Right. Just like knowing when to turn. That would be crazy. But hey, maybe whales are just good at that. Yeah. I mean, this could be an example where my personal experience limits my ability to imagine an answer.

48:18It is hard for me to imagine that. But, you know, they've got giant brains. Maybe they're putting some of that giant mass to like incredible processing abilities to navigate incredible distances. All right. Right. So what's the answer then to the listener's question? I would say the answer is we don't completely know. It probably has something to do with landmarks, something to do with sharing information. They might be using the magnetic fields to some extent. They're paying attention to currents and temperature. But even when those change, it's not throwing them off course. So it's probably a what we would call like multimodal signals.

48:51Like they're probably taking lots of different kinds of information and integrating it. But at the end of the day, we can't do this sort of manipulative experiments we'd need to lock it in. So we're just going to have to keep waiting to see what sort of experiments nature throws at us so that we can collect data as we go. Oh, and I forgot there was one other cue that has been getting a lot of attention in the papers that I read, and that's gravity as a sort of landmark. And so I think the idea here is that there are like mountain ridges that are made of dense materials. And so they pull on these giant whales a little bit more.

49:26And so you can use these as sort of cues as you move around their environment because these don't change much. You know, those mountains, if they're there one year, they're probably going to be there 100 years from now. And so there's some thought that those are cues that are being used. What do you think as a – I mean, I know we don't know what particle makes gravity, but does this make sense? It makes sense sort of from a physics point of view. I mean, we all feel gravity, and gravity mostly points down. But gravity would only point straight down if the Earth was a perfect sphere. If you're standing next to like a huge blob of stuff, then you're going to feel its gravity also.

50:01And so the net gravity is going to point like a little bit to the side. And so if there are like dense deposits of iron under the ocean floor or something, and whales are super sensitive to the direction of gravity, they have some like internal biological pendulum, then in principle, they could detect those. And I guess in principle, you could use that to navigate. To me, I'm not sure how much of a navigation help it is because it doesn't provide you like longitude latitude information the way the stars do, right? It just tells you that you're near a landmark. To me, it seems like about as useful as eyeballs, not as useful as celestial navigation.

50:40Well, but if you can't see the stars, then, you know, that doesn't help so much. We don't know that the whales can see the stars. Does it matter that they are so like many orders of magnitude bigger than we are? Does that make it easier for them to detect differences in gravity along the Earth's surface? You definitely have a larger force on larger masses, right? But of course, they also have larger mass. So it is the same acceleration, which they sense in their stomachs, probably. So like maybe they're sensing shifts in how their stomachs move or something. I mean, and what I mean by like as good as eyeballs is that, you know, if you could see underwater features like, oh, there's a mountain underwater or there's this cliff underwater.

51:22That seems to me as good as this gravitational stuff. It's not like it tells you where you are on the planet. It's still local information in that way. But yeah, maybe whales are doing that. And that would give a whole different meaning to like, I've got this gut feeling. The mountain is actually pulling your gut to the right. And you're like, we should go right. I mean, you're joking, but your gut is an accelerometer, right? That's why on a roller coaster, you feel like you're leaving your stomach behind or it's in your mouth or something. It's for exactly that reason. and you are measuring a change in the local acceleration away from the normal Earth's gravity.

51:57And so, for example, if you walked by some super dense deposit of material, you would feel the same way. You would feel a force pulling in a weird direction. And yeah, it'd be a gut feeling. Yeah, well, usually I pass out on roller coasters before I get that feeling. So, but maybe if I was slowly walking along the ocean floor, I'd be able to sense it better. But all right. So I think the summary point here is that we don't really have it all figured out yet. it's probably more than one thing. They're probably integrating cues from a variety of different sources. But one way or another, they make these amazing migrations.

52:31Well, you might be wondering, how is Daniel going to connect this question of whales back to the aliens and their anuses? I'm dying to know. It's a lot easier than you might imagine. Any fan of Star Trek knows that in Star Trek IV, the aliens were interested in the humpback whales because it turns out they're the smartest critters on Earth. And so maybe aliens will come to Earth to talk to whales, not just about their navigation, but to get advice about whether or not they should promote their transient anuses to permanent ones. Oh, my gosh. I am so proud of the way you tied it all together. It's only missing cannibalism and a dig on white chocolate.

53:06Bravo. You know, we try to end these episodes by inspiring humanity. And I'm not sure that accomplished that, but I did find some connective tissue. I'm impressed. And on that note, let's see if Rhonda's impressed. Wow. Thank you so much, Daniel and Kelly, for digging into that question about humpback whales and how they migrate. I found it was really fascinating, and I've never heard some of those theories before. I really can't wait until the aliens get here to interpret the answer for us, too. Thank you again. All right. Well, we had a lot of fun talking about jelly and white holes and whales and tying it all together in surprising ways.

53:45And we also had fun because we're answering your questions. And we'd like to think that we're scratching your curiosity itch because there's so many incredible things to be curious about in this universe. So please share your curiosity with us and with the other listeners. Write to us to questions at danielandkelly.org. We can't wait to hear from you.

54:09Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio. We would love to hear from you. We really would. We want to know what questions you have about this extraordinary universe. We want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions for future shows. If you contact us, we will get back to you. We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us at questions at danielandkelly.org. Or you can find us on social media. We have accounts on X, Instagram, Blue Sky, and on all of those platforms, you can find us at D &K Universe. Don't be shy. Write to us. What if your soda actually did something for you?

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