Listener Questions #26

24:14OK, so now you've got these clumps, but you want to make those clumps even bigger, actually, because that would make it easier for them to fall down to the bottom so that you can get them all out of there. And so the next step is the step that John mentioned, which is flocculation. And essentially what you're doing is – It sounds like a punishment. It does. Flagellation or something like that. But no, focus on flocks. So flocks is like a group of things. And the goal here is that you are very gently mixing the water so that the tiny clumps that you've made start bumping into other clumps. And now they start making much bigger clumps.

24:52It's like a flock of birds as they merge in the sky together and all head to their migration site. But here it's junk that you don't want to be drinking. And so they bump into each other, form big chunks, and then you bring them to another area, like another big pool. And this is the sedimentation step. So you basically just let the heavy stuff fall out by letting the water sit for a while. And you draw the water off the top. And so we've added salt and aluminum and iron in order to help the stuff clump together. and what is the stuff that we're gathering up? What is the stuff that's clumping?

25:25Where does it come from? Why is it there anyway? Well, I mean, we're collecting from a natural system and so it could be little bits of poop or little bits of sand or, you know, it could be just about anything. There's a lot of things in the river. The technical term I think is dirt. Does dirt also cover poop? Because that's news to me. I think a big fraction of dirt is poop, isn't it? I don't know. You should ask your wife. I think I will. Okay. And then we'll ask your husband to write a poem about it. Oh, fantastic. Oh, this is a family affair. I love it. All right. So you let the heavy stuff settle to the bottom.

25:59You draw the water from the top because all the heavy stuff is now down at the bottom. And now you start running it through different kinds of filters. So what you've done is you've removed like, you know, the poop, the dirt, whatever, the like heavy stuff. But now you want to make sure that there's no bacteria, parasites or viruses in there anymore. These things are kind of tiny. And so now you need to start passing the water through different kinds of filters that are going to catch these tiny things. Wow. So even for the super tiny stuff, you're still using physical filters, like super tiny meshes to block like viruses.

26:30That's insane. Well, we're also going to get to a disinfection step. And so they get a little bit more serious eventually. But here we're still trying to remove like the bigger stuff. Like, for example, parasites probably get stuck if you make it go through like a big thing of sand and the water has to sort of like filter through the sand. So you get some of that stuff out that way. But it's basically still the pasta strainer strategy. With a very, very fine hole in the pasta strainer. Yeah. So, I mean, think about like passing water over sand or gravel and in some cases charcoal. And charcoal is using like VanderWaal's forces to capture stuff.

27:07and then you know whatever trickles out the bottom is probably pretty clean but viruses are really tiny and so the viruses and stuff probably got through there and so the next step is disinfection where they usually add like chlorine chloramine chlorine dioxide chlorine stuff to try to kill whatever is left in there that might be alive they can also pass it through like some uv light to try to like break up the DNA in these organisms to kill them. But most places, as far as I can tell, use some version of like, you know, bleach, some version of like chlorine. And the other benefit of using chlorine is that it continues to kill things as the water is passing through your local like municipal pipes to get to your house.

27:53Well, at the Orange County water treatment plant, they walk you through the whole process. And at the end, they have a tap and they like pour you a glass of water and they're like, here you go. And you've seen it come from like raw sewage and it's crystal clear, beautiful water. And did you, and you drank it? Oh yeah. And a lot of our water comes from toilets, which is actually the connection with our first question, because you know, how does that water get to the sewage treatment plant? We'll flush it down the toilet. We create a little toilet tornado. Okay. I didn't see where that was going until you got there, but amazing.

28:25It was a bit of a reach. Yeah. A bit of a reach. All right. So does that mean that the water that's coming out of our tap has chlorine in these chemicals in it and also like destroyed carcasses of bacteria and viruses? Because they can't actually remove it, right? It's still in there. Yeah, that's right. And according to the Center for Disease Control or the CDC, low levels of disinfectants like chlorine in your water don't make people sick. But some people are more sensitive to this kind of stuff than other people. If you're worried, you should talk to your physician. but we have been treating water like this for about 100 years.

28:57And for most people, it's not a problem. And are these strategies different from what you might do in a rural region or if you're like in the backcountry? Super different. Really? Yeah. So for example, I live in a very rural region. I say that I live in Charlottesville, but I actually live on a farm, you know, a bit away from Charlottesville. And what we use is groundwater. So we talked about how in a city, You'd go through a bunch of different kinds of filtration methods. But here, the filtration method that we use is nature. You know, rainwater falls on the ground and it has to trickle through loads of dirt and sand and stuff.

29:35And a bunch of the stuff that you don't want to be drinking sort of gets stopped by the sand on the way down to become part of the groundwater. So the groundwater is like, you know, there's like a hard rock underneath. Groundwater accumulates on top of it. And then you can dig a well that goes into the area where water is stored underground and you can pump that up into your house. Does that make sense? It's sort of amazing. I mean, you're talking about using nature to filter out nature. Yes, but it doesn't always work fantastically. So if you live in a city, then your water has to pass a bunch of tests before it gets to you.

30:10Or like the facility needs to regularly do monitoring to make sure that like the levels that it has to hit are being achieved. believed whereas me I have to collect water samples every year and pay somebody to test our water to make sure that for example our septic system isn't leaking bacteria into the groundwater or you know I live around a lot of farms if they were using a bunch of pesticides maybe some of them could seep down into the groundwater and end up in our drinking water so your groundwater has no filters other than this natural system like you just pump it up and drink it yeah wow yeah It does.

30:44It goes through like a sedimentation step just to make sure that any dirt has fallen out of it. But we don't do anything after that. And when people visit your farm, you don't ask them to like sign a waiver or anything. I mean, I've drunk this water. I was going to say, I didn't ask you to sign a waiver or Katrina. I wish I'd heard this podcast episode before I visited. But like I said, we get our water tested and our water always has pristine levels of everything. So country living. It was delicious. Yeah. Thank you. Country living. Country living at its best. Wow. Wow. All right. Button up your overalls and have a glass.

31:20Hey, I want - Sounds good. I don't know why I had to go to the overalls, but anyway, all right. Country living, no? You don't wear overalls around the farm? Not yet. Not yet. I'll get there. I'll get there. But so maybe next year when I start with my dairy goats. And don't misinterpret me. Overalls was a positive comment. I'm not anti-overalls. No, they do look very comfy. All right. So what about if you're hiking in the back country and you don't have access to any of these things? What do you do? Okay, well, first I'll note that not everybody is as lucky as I am. They don't always live in an area where the groundwater is clean, in which case they do have to use extra filters or disinfectants and stuff like that.

31:53So we're lucky we don't have to add extra steps, but depending on where you are, you might have to. If you are in the backcountry, maybe what you're doing is you pull up to a river and you pull some water out, and that is the only water you have to drink. So what are you going to do? The first thing you're going to do for all the methods we're going to talk about is strain the big junk out of it. Yeah. Take out the rocks, take out the leaves, maybe pass it through a handkerchief or something. And then I checked the CDC website and they actually have pretty good, pretty detailed instructions for what you're supposed to do.

32:21And the best thing to do if you're able is to boil it. Boiling will kill the bacteria. It'll kill the viruses. It'll kill the parasites. And if you bring it up to boiling for just one minute, that's usually all it takes. But if you're at high elevation, like above 6 ,500 feet, you need to boil it for three times as long. And that is because of chemistry. So you can blame chemistry. Because water boils at lower temperatures at high altitude. Yes, exactly. So you need to do it for longer. And I love how thorough they are in their warnings. They say, to avoid burns, allow the water to cool before using it.

32:56Don't drink boiling water, people. That's right. That's right. Remember to breathe while you're doing this process. Do not take a shower in boiling water. Thank you, CDC. Right. Don't stick knives in your eye. Yeah. Right. But, you know, they're covering their tails. Anytime you read one of these, I imagine that there was some instance where somebody needed that warning, you know, and they're responding to that. They're like, all right, we didn't think we had to say this, but apparently. But here we are. Yeah. I do feel like anytime there's a sentence like that, there's a story that you probably would want to hear.

33:28But anyway. All right. So what if, for whatever reason, you can't boil? You are hiking and it's raining and you can't start a fire or something. In that case, you can hope that you thought ahead to bring a couple different kinds of filters with you. And the problem with filters or the difficulty with filters is something we talked about earlier, which is that viruses are really, really small. So getting a filter that can filter out viruses is really difficult. Very teeny tiny little holes that stuff needs to pass through. You can use a reverse osmosis system where essentially they're like pushing water through a very, very, very, very, very fine mesh.

34:09And just about anything that isn't water doesn't make it through to the other side. And so you end up with like one side that has all the gross stuff mixed with some water and one side that has clean water. I feel like I got mixed answers on whether or not this will remove parasites. This might work if you're like really in a pinch. but you know i think you pretty much always want to boil it or maybe use one of these filters followed by a disinfectant that's more likely to kill the viruses and so disinfectants is another option this doesn't work as well against parasites parasites are like bigger and a little bit harder to kill so like chlorine or iodine is maybe less likely to kill them although it might kill some of them but you can add chlorine or iodine but if you're pregnant or have some other issues with iodine, you might want to skip iodine.

34:53Check the CDC website. But basically, you can add some chemicals to also kill parasites. Finally, if you're really in a pinch and all you have is a plastic bottle with no filters, no disinfectants, you can still try to filter it to get the big stuff out. And you want that water to be as clear as possible because you're going to be trying to use the sun's UV radiation to kill stuff that's in there. Particle physics is our last line of defense. Oh, does it? This counts as particle physics? All right. I'll give it to you. These are high energy photons. Exactly. Zapping those viruses. I was wondering why you looked like you were getting excited about something.

35:31And I realized now you were getting excited because we were about to get to particle physics. But I'm learning to read you. I should have known particle physics was coming. That's how you know. That's how you know. All right. So anything that makes the water cloudy, you want to get out because any suspended particle in there is going to stop UV radiation from hitting the bacteria and viruses that you're trying to kill. If it's a super sunny day and your water's super clear, then you can leave a plastic bottle filled with water under the sun for about six hours and that will probably kill everything, hopefully.

36:02Amazing. Yeah, amazing, totally. And if it's cloudy, you might want to wait like as much as two days. I think I'd still feel better if I did some other additional treatments to it. What if you launched your water into space so it's exposed to radiation in space would that make it safer how did you not prepare for that question you're an expert on space so what i'm wondering is uh so okay so we talked about how uh space can even kill tardigrades which are like supposedly indestructible but what i'm wondering is if you launched it to space would that like if there were pesticides in the water would that solve the problem of the chemicals and so i do think that would kill bacteria and viruses and parasites, but I don't know if it would remove pesticides the same way as like a charcoal filter would.

36:48And so I think for any of these things, it's important to keep in mind, like what are my goals? You know, if you're drinking from a waterway and there's a bunch of farms up river, you might want to worry about pesticides and maybe you want something like a charcoal filter. But if you're just worried about, you don't want to get Giardia beaver fever, then maybe disinfecting is the way to go. Beaver fever? I've never heard of that. Oh, no. I think Giardia became famous when some people were camping downstream of a beaver dam, and the beavers gave them Giardia, which gives them massive diarrhea. I had a friend who got Giardia once.

37:24She called it muddy butthole disease. The good news is if you're an astronaut and you're in space, your water is probably not going to give you beaver disease. That's probably true, but you are probably drinking yesterday's coffee. You're drinking recycled urine and sweat. All right, well, let's hear if we have muddied the waters or clarified everything for John. Oh, that was bravo, Daniel. Bravo. Thank you, Kelly, for the insightful answer. You flocculated all the little bits and pieces into a really understandable podcast. Thank you again.

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41:16So we've established that you can probably get clean water in space by just exposing it to how horrible space is. Another horrible thing that could happen in space would be if your moon broke into many pieces. But one of the amazing things about space is that it exposes us to other kinds of environments and other kinds of vistas. And we've all seen movies where you have like two stars in the sky or huge moons. And one of our favorite listeners, Joe, has a question about what extremes are possible. Hi, Daniel and Kelly. This is Joe from Florida. Loving the show. but even more, really appreciate your willingness to answer random questions from any one of us.

41:58To that point, in playing games and other imagery of sci-fi planets and worlds, it's really common to see a massive planetary body taking much of the sky, kind of like a moon of a gas giant where it's just the whole thing. It creates a very alien appearance. So I got to thinking, after the Parker Solar Probe, quote, touched the sun, And I ran those numbers, and even at closest approach, I think it was only about a 12 degree of the sky field of view. So it'd be big, but not completely taking up your vision big. So my question is, based on Roche limits and assumptions of standard planetary compositions, what's the largest a body can appear in the sky while your own world is still kind of in a stable orbit and you're not being torn apart or coming into any of those Majora's Mass kind of situations?

42:49Thanks a lot, guys. Love the show. All right. So this is a super fun hypothetical question. He's essentially asking, how close can we get to science fiction? How big in the sky can something appear and still obey the laws of physics? Love it. And so did this require you to do some actual math or was this answer available somewhere? No, I had to do a little bit of calculations here. This is very cool. I like thinking about this because it's super awesome to have big features in the sky. There's something really powerful about that because you're connected to them. You're like seeing the scale of the solar system and the universe in the sky.

43:27And we're lucky that our moon is so big and so close. And a lot of people aren't aware, but there are bigger things in the sky than the moon. For example, Andromeda, the galaxy, is bigger in the night sky than the moon. We think of it as super distant, and it is, but it's also incredibly big. The reason that's a surprise is that most of the time you can't see it because it's dim. But if you train a camera on it and follow it and accumulate light, you can see Andromeda in the sky. So not with your eyes, unfortunately, but it's there dominating the night sky. So kind of feels like cheating to compare an entire galaxy to a moon.

44:05Well, I mean, we're just talking about angular sizes, right? It's just for reference. All right. Obviously, the moon is much smaller than Andromeda, but so much closer. And that's really the tradeoff here. What we're talking about is the size in the sky, which is what we call angular distance. And the way you calculate this is there's a formula, but essentially depends on the radius of the object and on the distance from the object. So the bigger the object, the bigger it is in the night sky. The further away it is, the smaller it is in the night sky. So to be big in the night sky, you can be pretty small, but very, very close, or you can be far away, but absolutely enormous.

44:41And so that's how you calculate it. Okay, so I haven't stared at the sun for very long because I've been told not to. Yes. But if I were to stare at the sun, would the sun and the moon, would they be about the same size? How different in size would they be if I stared? Well, we know this because we have eclipses, right? The moon is almost exactly the same size as the sun in the sky. They're both about half a degree, which is the unit we use. And that's just an incredible coincidence. Often in science, when we see coincidences, we're like, hmm, what does that mean? Is that a clue? Why is that? But sometimes they're just coincidences.

45:16Like there's no reason that the moon and the sun have to take up almost exactly the same amount of sky. But it does lead to very spectacular eclipses. So we're very grateful for this coincidence. Maybe the aliens knew we would really enjoy eclipses. So they, you know, they work some stuff out for us. Yeah, that or the programmers of the simulation. I don't know, but it works out pretty well. All right. Thanks, whoever. So the biggest easily visible thing in our night sky are the sun and the moon. about half a degree. And Joe is wondering about how big things can get. And the physics we have to understand here are the physics of tidal forces.

45:49That is, the Earth pulls on the Moon with its gravity. And we tend to think about the Earth as a point and the Moon as a point and forces between those two points. But they're not really points. The Moon has a side that's closer and a side that's further away. It has an extent to it. And the side of the Moon that's closer feels the Earth's gravity more powerfully than the side of the moon that's further away, because gravity depends on distance. And so because there's a difference in those forces, effectively, it's like the Earth is trying to pull the moon apart. It is. And it actually squeezes the moon and makes it a little bit like a football.

46:22And this reminds me of the book Seven Eves. Yes, exactly. Neil Stevenson's really fun novel about what would happen if the moon was destroyed. And in that novel, it's not really much of a spoiler to say it's destroyed by some alien an impactor. But in reality, the moon would be destroyed if it got too close to the Earth. Because the closer you get to the Earth, the greater the difference between the forces on your edges. And so effectively, the greater the force trying to pull you apart. And eventually, you approach what we call the Roche limit, which is the closest you can get without being pulled into little bits and essentially form a ring.

46:57And for two objects of equal density of a planet and And a moon, that radius is about two and a half times the radius of the planet, which is actually quite close. That would be like 18 ,000 kilometers from the center of our planet. But the moon currently is like 380 ,000 kilometers away. So the moon can get a lot closer and be a lot bigger in our sky without being torn into rings. I am feeling like I'll sleep better tonight knowing that it's not close to the Roche limit. That's good. Not at all. And so if you somehow engineered the moon, you put a rocket on it, and you brought it in closer to the Earth and all the way to the Roche limit, it would be about 20 times bigger in the sky than it is currently.

47:40Wow. Right? About 10 angular degrees. About the size of one or two outstretched hands. It would be pretty big. It would be awesome. Would that really mess up astronomy? Because it would be – all right. So Daniel and I both have our hands outstretched right now and we're looking at – yeah. So how bad would that be for astronomy? That would be pretty bad because it would make moonlit nights much brighter, right? You'd have much more powerful moon shadows. And already moonlit nights are bad for astronomy because that's light pollution, right? It's like having a big light in the sky. It's like a second sun.

48:11You are reflecting the sun, a mini version of it. So this would be 20 times as powerful. So it would be bad for astronomy. I thought you were going to say moonlit nights are bad for astronomers because they're not very romantic or something like that because the rest of us love moonlit nights. Well, a moonlit night is romantic because the light is dim, right? It's like why you turn down the lights to make them romantic. And so at some point, cranking that thing up by a factor of 20 is no longer as romantic. Okay. Yeah, I can see that. You're going to need much better curtains. Yeah. But let's do a little bit more engineering to try to make this bigger.

48:45What if we didn't just use our moon? What if we took a bigger object? What if we somehow pulled Mars into our orbit and we used it as a second moon and we brought it in just outside Mars' Roche limit? Well, that would be about twice as big in the sky as the moon at the Roche limit because Mars is bigger than the moon. So it'd be about 40 times the size our moon currently is in the sky, an angular distance of about 20 degrees. Maybe it's just that I grew up with the moon being so far away, but I'd feel like a little crowded, you know, like you need to give me some space, Mars. You're getting too close.

49:18You're kind of freaking me out. All right. Well, then you're not going to like the next scenario. I did a calculation to try to think about how close you could bring any object. Forget the moon, forget Mars. What if we're engineering something that we want to fill our sky and you could make it out of some natural material? Well, the Roche limit depends on density because something that's denser holds itself together better. So if you make it, for example, out of iron, you can get it closer. But then iron is also denser, so the object becomes smaller, so it doesn't take up as much in the sky. So I imagined, what if we had an object, the mass of the Earth?

49:54And my calculation suggests that if you make it about three times as dense as the Earth, So you use like pure iron. Then its Roche limit would be about one and a half times the Earth's radius. And this new moon we build, because it's denser than the Earth, but still has the same mass, would have a radius of about one half of the Earth's radius. So this thing would be orbiting just above the ground. What? Just above the ground on Earth? Just above the ground on Earth. You'd have to like duck as this thing goes by. No. Yeah, that's no way to live. but, you know, and these are simplified calculations that we're really pushing to the extreme.

50:33We're assuming that the Roche limit formula applies here, and I'm not sure it really does. And of course, you know, you got any mountains, those are going to get rubbed right off. But you're 95 % sure about your answers. 95 % sure. So if you're out there and you have an earth mass worth of iron, and you're thinking about building this moon and having an orbit just above the surface, you should know that I only give you my 95 % guarantee, which is my highest guarantee, by the way. But if you did this, it would fill half the sky. Please don't listen to Daniel, everyone. Look it, he would sell us all out to the aliens if it would explain gravity.

51:11Oh yeah, absolutely. We can't depend on Daniel for our safety, everyone. 95 % you can't, that's true. Now you can also imagine the opposite scenario. What if you're on the moon, right? And you're not on the planet. So in our solar system, if you were to land on Io and look up at Jupiter in the sky, it already fills 20 angular degrees, right? That's the size we're talking about of having like Mars in our sky. So that's already the case. Jupiter is huge in the sky above Io. And in comparison, like if you're on Titus, Saturn is only like five and a half degrees, which is still big, right? A lot bigger than the moon is in our sky, but not as dramatic.

51:51But I calculated what would happen if you brought Io close to its Roche limit with Jupiter, and then it would be like 60 degrees in the sky. So that would be like, wow, what a view of Jupiter, right? And then if you made Io out of something incredibly tough like diamond, it could get much closer without being torn apart. So the Roche limit depends on what the object is made out of. And then you could get Jupiter to be 95 degrees across in the sky before it's going to tear apart your diamond moon. Holy cow. I mean, you'd be dead long before that, but wow. What a way to go, right? What a way to go.

52:27What a way to go. You'd be sitting on your diamond moon, sipping super clean water from your wastewater treatment facility, watching tornadoes play out on the surface of Jupiter. You know what? That sounds, if you've got to go, that's high up there on my list of ways to go. And this episode will have prepared you to understand the science of each of those elements. That's right. You're welcome. All right. Well, let's hear if Joe is satisfied with our answer to his science fiction inspired question. Thank you so much, Daniel and Kelly, for that answer. It will please you and other listeners to know that I do not have an Earth's mass of iron ready to put in dangerously close orbit.

53:04While giant objects in the sky may look pretty epic, sounds like for our survival, it better they remain comfortably distant. I guess the first human on aisle will have quite the view. But for those of us remaining earthbound, I'm still eager for that binary sunset portrait. So, alien engineers, when you have a moment, that'd be great. Thank you again, and keep looking up.

53:32All right, well, thank you everyone who submitted questions. If you'd like to ask us a question, you can write us at questions at danielandkelly.org, or you can join us on our Discord channel. You can find an invitation to our Discord channel at danielantkelly.org or you could send us a message to our social media pages, although answers there are slightly less reliable. So I suggest email or Discord. We really do reply to every email. People continue to be shocked when we actually reply, but we will. We will write back to you with an answer to your question. Try it. Yep, we love hearing from you all.

54:05Thanks, everyone. Have a great day and stay curious.

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