Listener Questions #27

26:13Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. EBCLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to EBCLIS. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EBCLIS. Before starting EBCLIS, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Ask your doctor about EBCLIS and visit ebglis.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX or 1-800-545-5979.

26:53All right. So from ants to ant fantasia, which I reliably produced incorrectly, I'm sure. Me ouch on that one there, Kelly. All right. So we are answering questions today. We love getting questions from listeners. If you have a question about the nature of the universe or really anything about this beautiful, incredible, disgusting cosmic violence that we have and that we live in, please write to us to questions at danielandkelly.org. We will get back to you. And here's a question about visual imagery in the mind and how it enables or disables people to do physics. Hi, Daniel and Kelly. I recently found out that I have a trait called aphantasia, which is the inability to consciously pull up visual imagery in my mind.

27:43I do dream though, but finding out others can picture an apple in their head with their eyes open or closed was mind-blowing. And I've gone most of my adult life without even knowing this. Imagine my continued surprise when I discover that it's not limited to visual information, but can also include auditory, smell, and even taste. I enjoy reading sci-fi and fantasy, but my experience and your experience must be worlds apart. And that leads me to my question. As a physicist, how do you use imagery on a day-to-day basis? Are you writing equations on a chalkboard? And if so, are you holding the chalk?

28:25Thanks so much. Oh my gosh, this is such a fascinating question. And this question reminded me of Temple Grandin. So when we got our son's autism diagnosis, I read every biography I could find written or autobiography written by someone who's autistic so that I could try to understand like what his life would be like. And I guess Temple Grandin has this amazing ability to sort of imagine what it's like to be. So she works with livestock and tries to create ways to make their lives better and to have more humane practices. And she's amazingly good at like envisioning what it must be like to be a cow and what it is that they're seeing.

29:02And she clearly can imagine things way better than I can. And it sounds like this listener is on the other side where they're able to envision even less than I can. And I think this spectrum is totally fascinating. It is really amazing. And it's something we only understood like in the last 10 or 15 years that there is a variation between people and their mental imagery. Essentially, we've been communicating with each other about this kind of stuff for thousands of years and not realizing that we're having very different experiences internally. And I read this excellent article in The New Yorker very recently about aphantasia from late October.

29:40I really recommend it. And it begins with a story of a physicist who in his late 30s or early 40s finally realizes that when everybody else is talking about having images in their minds, they're being literal about it. He thought forever that everyone was just sort of like using metaphors. Like, I mean, you say you're thinking about that, you're seeing that in your mind, but you're not literally like seeing it, right? And it was only like recently the dude is like totally grown up when he realized people are being literal, that some people can close their eyes and imagine an apple from yesterday and like see it be green and shimmery and, you know, really visualize these things.

30:21He thought everybody was being figurative. What do you think it would be like to realize that as an adult? I mean, I think animal behaviorists think about this kind of stuff all the time. Like, you know, that animal can do something I can't. But it must have been a crazy moment to realize. Yeah, well, I think everybody is a little different. And as you're growing up, you discover like, wow, everybody thinks that swimming is fun and I hate the beach or everybody else loves chocolate, but I think it's gross or watermelon tastes like cilantro. So it's not unusual to find something that makes you different.

30:51But it is amazing how such fundamental parts of what we think of the human experience can be different from person to person. And, you know, this is a question like philosophers have been debating for thousands of years. Like, what is it like to be a bat? Do we see the same color red? And so it's sort of incredible that it's only recently people have been studying this in detail. And this article goes into the history of the study of it, which is only about 150 years old. There's a guy, Francis Galton, who's also sort of a famous eugenicist, did some early research and found a bunch of examples of scientists who, he says, quote, have feeble powers of visual representation.

31:31So scientists in particular tend to not be able to imagine things in their minds, which I think is the impetus for today's question. And that's surprising because it feels like visual imagery is so important to physics. Think of the story of Einstein coming up with relativity. He says that he was imagining or trying to imagine pulling up alongside a photon. And in realizing that that was impossible, he understood how photons have no reference frame. And Einstein's work is filled with these examples of trains and passing each other in light. And clearly, he's imagining visual situations, right?

32:07And in chemistry, there's lots of examples like how did somebody figure out the structure of benzene? They had like a dream of a snake biting its own tail. It's like very vivid visual imagery. So it's easy to imagine that having vivid mental imagery would be essential for doing science, right? Yeah, but Galton was wrong about a lot of things. A lot of things, a lot of important things. Was he wrong about this too? So we don't have enough data to know. And the feels has really gone back and forth. Like in the early 1900s, the widespread belief among psychologists was that mental imagery didn't exist.

32:46There's a movement of behaviorism led by a guy named J.B. Watson, who says, quote, quote, what does a person mean when he closes his eyes or ears and says, I see the house where I was born? Touching, of course, but sheer bunk. We are merely dramatizing. The behaviorist finds no proof of imagery in all of this. So psychiatrists felt like, no, you're not really feeling these things. You're not really seeing these things, which is bizarre because some of them must have been experiencing it, right? But that was just the movement. Science is weird that way. It follows these trends and these fads and eventually it zigzags towards the truth, but it can go down some weird rabbit holes.

33:24Yeah. And it can get stuck in them for a while. Yeah. And so it was only the early 2000s when a Scotsman had a cardiac procedure. And after that discovered he could no longer picture anything. What? He used to be able to, and then he had this procedure done. And all of a sudden he couldn't have a mental image of his wife's face when she wasn't there. He lost this ability. What was the tie-in with the cardiac procedure? Did part of his brain not get enough oxygen as part of the procedure? Yeah. So he went to a neurologist and this neurologist had always been interested in this kind of stuff anyway, and did a study and showed that part of this guy's brain had been like weakened probably because of this cardiac event.

34:07And he was trying to call these mental images up, but that part of his brain was not activating. So he found the part of the brain that was like activating when other people were making mental images. And in this guy was now failing. And so he wrote an article about it. This is like a new discovery. And then a bunch of people wrote in and they were like, oh my gosh, that describes my experience. And so it turned out this wasn't just like one random Scotsman who had an injury, but it was fairly common. And so he decided to call this aphantasia. Fantasia was defined by Aristotle as the ability to conjure an image in your imagination.

34:42So aphantasia, meaning you can't do it. And Carl Zimmer wrote an article about this in Discover Magazine, which got a lot more attention and a lot more people wrote in. And they were like, wow, this is actually quite widespread. Huge Carl Zimmer fan, let me just say. I know. And I love when science journalism helps propel the science, right? Gets the right attention to it. People are like, hey, everybody should know about this. This is kind of a thing. and a lot of people, it turns out, discover that they have this condition only when reading about it or hearing about it described on the radio.

35:16Their whole lives, they had heard people talk about picturing things or imagining things or visualizing beaches or whatever, and they just assumed that these were idioms, that they were kind of being hyperbolic, they were exaggerating really, that they weren't really seeing it. And only when hearing this described, that this was a condition that you could have, that they'd been deeply and profoundly misunderstanding everybody else's experience. I wonder if they're more likely to doodle. Because if I'm trying to keep track of things in my head, but I couldn't do that, I feel like I'd want to doodle it out on paper to keep...

35:49Anyway, I'm getting... This is amazing. No, it's fascinating. And in the article, they interview some artists. And there are some artists who have a Fantasia and they hear other artists say like, the picture didn't come out as crisply as it does in my mind. And these artists with the Fantasia are like, what are you talking about? And there's the opposite condition called hyper Fantasia, where you have like exceptionally detailed mental images, which sounds awesome. But some people describe it as like graphic and inescapable. You know, where you like if you watch a horror movie, you just like can't escape having those terrible scenes in your mind.

36:25You know, we don't fade the same way we do for others. I can totally imagine that not being good. like those pictures of screw worm that I looked at, I've kind of forgotten them. It would be awful if I could still see them right now. Yeah. Somebody with hyperphantasia said that, for example, if somebody just like mentions skateboarding, then he gets like an avalanche of vivid memories of every skateboarding experience he's ever had being in like stuck in virtual reality and having like a three 60 degree video of a thousand skateboarding experiences forced on you. So they sort of at the mercy of what people say because his, his brain is so visual.

37:00That feels like two problems though. Like being able to really visualize something and having too many memories coming in. That seems like two things. Yeah, exactly. So this is something we're still understanding. It's like, it's the brain, so it's complicated. But it's amazing to me that it's only recently we've even recognized that this is an issue, that there really is a difference. And there's this meme that's going around now online. You've probably seen it, which shows like a person with like a crisp image of an apple in their mind and then gradations all the way down to a person with no image at all.

37:30And you should look at that and you should ask yourself, what do I see in my mind's eye? And there really is a huge spectrum. There are people who just cannot visualize stuff in their brains and people can have exceptionally crisp photo quality images in their minds, which might feel weird to you as well. And I thought about this myself and I'm a very visual person. I can really imagine a crisp apple, not quite photorealistic, but with a lot of detail. How about you, Kelly? What kind of images do you see in your mind? I think I'm somewhere in between. Definitely not photorealistic, but I can see stuff.

38:00And this is fascinatingly connected to thinking about science because we talked earlier about how it might be really important to have these visuals in your mind to do science. But Oliver Sacks did this fascinating experience, which you'd love, Kelly, because it involves self-experimentation. He had almost no mental imagery, but then he decided to take heroic quantities of amphetamines. And while he was doing this, he could see images in his mind. It activated this part of his brain so he could do it. But then he could no longer think about abstract stuff. So it was sort of a trade-off. So it might be that people who are exceptionally visual can't think as abstractly.

38:38And people who think better abstractly can't think as visually. And so to the question, what's crucial for doing physics? It might be that not being constrained by visual imagery makes you better thinking about complex things like 11-dimensional manifolds that you need to solve string theory. Maybe being unshackled from the reality of our intuition, the dominance of our physical world and its implied limitations makes it easier to think about complex numbers and all sorts of crazy things, which a lot of us find counterintuitive because we don't see them reflected in our reality. And so I think the answer to the question is that there's a whole spectrum of experience and there's different kinds of physicists.

39:22Like for me, when I think about physics, I think very geometrically. Even if we're talking about weird abstract math, I see it in my mind as shapes, like fitting together or not fitting together, or clicking or pulling on each other. When I think about quantum fields, it's very visual and geometric. And I always struggled with equations. I can do the math, obviously. I know how to manipulate equations, but I don't think in terms of equations. I don't look at an equation and understand intuitively. I have to translate it into geometric concepts in order to understand how the pieces are pulling on each other and how they interplay with each other.

39:57So I think there's probably a whole different spectrum and different kinds of brains are good at different kinds of things. And I'm glad that we have a diversity of brains in physics and in biology and in the world. Absolutely. But now you've got me wanting a survey of different fields and having them do that, that like gradient of photorealistic apple to like hazy apple and seeing if different kinds of fields have different average scores on that test. Yeah, right. It would be fascinating. exactly but it's it's good that we have all these different kinds of brains i wonder how hereditary it is you know it's like if you have apple pictures as parents does that mean you can picture apples and if not and how random it is anyway it's amazing the way the world is and the way we image it and how bad we are at understanding other people's internal experience and what else are we not understanding because we're using these clumsy words even within our own species right Right.

40:52And then you try to figure out what's happening with another species. And it's amazing we understand anything at all. Yeah.

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43:45Okay, we're back and we're answering questions from you, from listeners just like you, who had a moment of curiosity that they couldn't scratch themselves. And so they wrote to us and we are here to scratch that itch. Well, and speaking of scratching, we're going to talk about little mites that live on your face. Oh boy. All right. So Lunar on Discord had this question for us. Good morning, Daniel and Kelly. How are you? This is Lunar from Discord. So my question is pretty simple. Why does a thing like Demodex follicularum actually exist? I understand nature is strange and life is beautiful, but why do these things exist?

44:24Why do I now know that there are itty bitty little mites living on my face and getting jiggy with it all through the night? It kind of sort of makes me want to bathe in pesticide. So can someone put my mind at ease and just let me know, let us know, let the people know that these things aren't causing us any harm and they might just very well be living out their best life. So what's up with these little face invaders? Thanks. You know, I'm a big believer in scientific education and knowing stuff, but wow, I'm not sure I really want to know about all the gross stuff that lives on my face. Too bad.

45:04Here it comes. Okay, so Demodex is a genus of mites, and mites are related to arachnids. So they're related to spiders and ticks, but like they're their own sort of thing, and they live on our faces. There are two species that you tend to find on your face, Demodex follicularum and Demodex brevis. Follicularum lives in like our smaller hair follicles and like your eyelashes and stuff. And so your hair follicles are like, you know, the holes where the hair shaft sort of goes in there. They live inside of them. They're a social species, and they eat skin cells that they find in there. The other species usually lives near oil glands and stuff in hair follicles also, and they're eating, like, the greasy stuff that our oil glands make.

45:50So does that mean that they're really small? They're, like, smaller than the width of a hair, so they can, like, crawl into these follicles and have a snack? Super tiny. You can't see them. They're less than half a millimeter. The brevis one is particularly small. So without a microscope, you can't see them. You can't feel them. But if you have clear visual imagery, now you're thinking about them and you're imagining them crawling all over your face. Oh, but they save the crawling over your face for nighttime. So right now they are in your pores eating their dead skin buffet and their grease buffet.

46:23All you can eat dead skin buffet. Woo-hoo! But when you fall asleep, they come out of your pores and your follicles, and they mate on your face. They mate on your face. Wow. They mate on your face. I guess for some people, that's good news, you know, to eat your own. I don't know. There are so many jokes we could make here, but we're not going to because you're already imagining them, so we don't have to. That's right. That's right. Okay, so we had a listener ask us in the past, how do pinworms know it's nighttime? How do face mites know it's nighttime? I looked this up. And first of all, it turns out they can detect light.

47:03So probably even from inside your hair follicles, they can tell if the lights are on or the lights are off. So they can just like notice it's getting dark and they're like, ooh, it's time for some romance. That's right. That's right. Somebody's turning down the lights, putting on the algorine. That's right. I've been really trying. I'll stop. So we are keeping that, Matt. That's gold. Oh, no. All right. OK, so it could be the light, but they also and this is sort of interesting. A couple episodes back, many episodes back now, maybe we talked about circadian rhythms and we talked about how circadian rhythms are this like interplay between proteins that are made by your genes.

47:40And some of them are made more at night and some of them are made more during the day. And they help you keep these 24 hour cycles. Somebody looked, a group of researchers looked at the genome of demodex that live on our face, and they're missing a lot of the genes that you'd need to make the proteins that make circadian clocks. And so they think that actually the mites are sort of bathed in the melatonin that we make. And so instead of trying to do their own circadian clocks, they're like, oh, the human is oozing melatonin. Time for them to go to bed. Time for me to get it on. And so they don't need to do it on their own.

48:16Anyway, that's just a hypothesis. But there are other parasites that sort of cue into what host hormones are doing and use that information for their own purposes. So they don't have their own internal clock, but they have all these external triggers that tell them, like, when it's out green time. Exactly. Exactly. Can't get enough of your face, baby. Oh, gosh. All right. That's enough. That's enough. Okay, so where do your mites come from? This is an interesting question. So actually, most people by the time they're adults have mites. Right. And a lot of kids have mites too. And so somebody did a study to try to figure out.

48:54So imagine that you have a family living together. You have two moms and two kids. The two kids, if they were breastfed by one of the moms, they are much more likely to have her mites than the mites from the other mom. because another place where you find these mites is on nipples. And so the mites, you know, probably like jump off the nipples and onto your face. And so you get your face mites from your mom. And if you were to look at the other mom in that couple, her face mites probably are more like her mom's face mites. Does that all make sense? Yes, exactly. Something else you can thank your mom for.

49:33And are these bad in any way or are they good or are they just totally neutral? Yeah, good question. So other species have demodex mites too. Some of them can be sort of parasite-like, but it looks like our mites are usually not a problem. And maybe they're sort of evolving in a trajectory away from parasitism. But for most of us, we've got these mites on our face, we'll never notice it. But if you end up being immunocompromised, sometimes you will start having problems with these mites. If you're immunocompromised, it seems like they're able to reproduce even more. And if you have rosacea, they can make your skin feel even more uncomfortable.

50:10They don't cause the rosacea, but if you already have like a problem with your skin getting irritated, having a bunch of mites on your face is probably not gonna help anything. They also contribute to what I think is called, here's another opportunity for me to mispronounce something. Love it. Blepharitis? Have you heard of blepharitis, Daniel? Never heard of it, or maybe it's not pronounced that way, but it doesn't ring a bell. Okay, it's probably not pronounced that way. But so it's essentially like you get this like crusty stuff on your eyelids. And they think that the mites living in your eyelashes could be contributing to that.

50:46And this tends to particularly be a problem in elderly folks. And so, you know, this also could maybe be an immunocompromised sort of situation contributing to it. But for most of us, the mites aren't bad. It's amazing. You can have this whole ecosystem living on your face and snacking on your skin and not really hurting you at all. They're just like friendly neighbors. Yeah. How do they benefit? Do they help clean stuff up? Like all this dead skin, would it be bad if you didn't have somebody munching on it? No, I don't think so. I didn't come across anything saying that the mites are helpful.

51:16And, you know, especially these days where we've got like soaps to wash our face, we've got ways to exfoliate. I don't think we really they're not really contributing to the like cleanliness of our faces. And you see similar things happening in dogs. So dog species have their own demodex mites. And sometimes you'll get bald patches on puppies because their immune systems aren't good yet. They're just developing. And those bald patches will be areas where the mites are sort of getting out of control. But if you just wait long enough, in a lot of cases, it'll clear up because the puppy's immune system will mature and they'll get those mite populations back under control.

51:50And that patch will sort of grow back in again. But Daniel, I bet you are wondering, does Demodex poop?

52:01I was wondering if we could complete the DKEU bingo and have either poop or cannibalism. So which way are we going? We're going poop. All right. I didn't find any evidence that they eat each other. And so for a long time, the going knowledge was that Demodex doesn't poop. They store up all of the waste that they make. They only live about three weeks. And so actually, if you live to be about 73 years old and your Demodex each live three weeks, you're probably host to something like 1 ,200 generations of mites throughout your life, which is just crazy. I have an input-output question. They have inputs.

52:40Yeah. They have no outputs. Are they just getting bigger and bigger and bigger or what's going on? Well, so the idea was, you know, three weeks is not a long time. They just, they store it. They do get a little bit bigger. And then when they die, they just kind of like, you know, release everything. So they just like die in a big poopy corpse in your face. Yeah, that's right. That's right. But actually some very good sleuthing in 2022 with some great photos found an anus. Yay. This is why you fund basic science, people. I want to use very powerful telescopes to look for tiny anuses. Well, tiny anuses have been found.

53:19They also found a tiny penis on their head. So that's where the males have their wieners. So anyway, all kinds of important information. But we haven't actually answered the listener's question yet, which is. Oh, yeah. I've lost track. What was the question again? Why? Why would you have this horrible thing? And I actually, I feel like it's obvious. Like we are a super abundant species. We are very close to our offspring. You know, sometimes they sleep next to us. We breastfeed them. It is very easy to imagine transmitting this, you know, parasite or symbiont, if it's not bad for us, like this critter from one organism to another.

54:01We are a super abundant species. And, you know, they're so tiny that we don't even know they're there. So we're not attacking them or anything like that. I mean, it seems to me like we are a great ecosystem for a little critter like this. And so, you know. So why not, basically? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, evolution fills any niche that it can find that it's got a path to. And our faces were one of those paths. And is there like a whole ecosystem there? Are there predators that gobble these things? Or do they live a predator-free lifestyle? I don't know. Oh, that's a good question. Because they sound delicious.

54:37Sure. Okay. I feel like they probably have parasites also that infect them or something. Right. Exactly. Maybe they have face mites. Maybe they do have face mites. It's face mites all the way down, isn't it? Oh, my gosh. We figured it out. Yeah. So I didn't find any stories about them having parasites or predators, but I would love to know. And, you know, we are probably their biggest problem when we wash and exfoliate our faces, but they hang in there inside our pores. Well, we have brought you up to speed to the forefront of human knowledge on face mites. Let's check in with our listener and see if we have scratched the lunar's itch.

55:18All right. Hey, thank you very much for that. Excellent answer, Kelly. And I greatly appreciate knowing that these little creatures are just simply getting by. It's still a little bit weird to know that they get up some interesting nocturnal activity. At least someone's having fun. And thank you very much, Daniel. I will never listen to Barry White the same way again without having a certain mental image of little mites and their heads having fun on my face. Thanks a lot, guys. I appreciate it. Keep up the good works. You guys rock. Thank you so much, everybody, for your questions. We appreciate them so much.

55:58There are so many topics that I would love to have the time to dig into. And when you ask about them, I get to. I appreciate you all so much. We do. We love hearing from you. I love opening my email in the morning and seeing all the incredible diversity of curiosity and questions and wondering and joy. We love hearing from you. that makes this podcast a conversation between us and you, not just between me and Kelly. So thanks everyone for joining in. Thank you. Until next time.

56:33Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio. We would love to hear from you. We really would. We want to know what questions you have about this extraordinary universe. We want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions for future shows. If you contact us, we will get back to you. We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us at questions at danielandkelly.org. Or you can find us on social media. We have accounts on X, Instagram, Blue Sky, and on all of those platforms, you can find us at D and K Universe. Don't be shy. Write to us. Introducing the all-new Mazda CX-5, featuring more connection.

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