Listener Questions #34

24:09Why do humans get dizzy? What is that all about? Yeah, yeah. So when I get a question, one of the first things that I do is I, like, break the question into pieces, and then you have to check the premise of each part of the question. not because you don't trust the listener, but because, one, you just want to make sure that everybody understands all the different parts of the question. So the first part of the question here is, why do you get dizzy? And so what's implicit in this question here is that what makes you dizzy is the blood rushing to your head. And maybe when the blood rushes to your head, it can't get back to your heart, and so it doesn't get oxygenated, or maybe it's the change in the fluid pressure in your head.

24:47But actually getting dizzy is a very complicated thing and it can be caused by a lot of different things. So I was looking at like a Mayo Clinic website and anxiety can make you dizzy. Really? Yeah, apparently. And folks who study virtual reality and who try to make those virtual reality headsets have been sort of amazed at the many different ways that humans can become dizzy when you, you know, put them in a virtual reality setup and, and they'll report like, oh no, that made me dizzy. Now I kind of want to puke. You know, no, your underwater setup didn't calm me down. It made me feel like the world is spinning.

25:22And so anyway, being dizzy is a complicated thing. But let's look at two potential reasons for getting dizzy. Let's go ahead and dig into the one that's implied in the question first, which is blood rushing to your head. Blood rushing to your head makes you dizzy. I always thought it was low blood pressure that made you dizzy. Yeah. So for me, when I stand up and I have less blood in my head for a moment, that is what makes me dizzy. And I'll admit, I shared some of this question on Blue Sky. I did get some responses from people being like, blood rushing to my head doesn't get me dizzy. It's blood rushing out of my head that makes me dizzy.

25:58And so it did seem like there was a general agreement that it's the getting up that makes you dizzy, not the blood rushing to the head that makes you dizzy. But there were folks trying to understand how maybe blood rushing to the head could make you dizzy And the general consensus was that maybe what's happening is that when the blood rushes to your head, you know, one, you get a pressure increase. Maybe that's a bit disorienting. But two, maybe the blood is pooling in your head. And when it pools in your head, perhaps you get low oxygen because your body is used to gravity helping you get the blood down.

26:33And so it's less good at pumping the blood away from your head when your head is in the wrong orientation. And so maybe it's not oxygenating as well under these conditions. And so maybe under these lower oxygen conditions and this higher pressure, it's making you sort of dizzy. Oh, I see.

27:20And so that was the statement. And so the question was, bats have these valves. Do geckos have the valves too? And I guess humans don't have these valves because humans can't be upside down for very long without their heads popping or something, right? Well, okay. So the equivalent of being upside down essentially would be like being in space. So when you are in space. Pivot to something you know about. That's right. Yes. Yeah, right. I was like, I don't know the answer to that, but I know the answer to something else. So when you're in space, the fluids shift up to your head and people do report feeling dizzy and disoriented.

27:52But that is partly maybe because of fluid shifts, but also because of this other thing that we're going to talk about in a moment, which is it messes up your vestibular system also. Your what-eular system? Vestibular system. Hold on. That's the next thing we're going to talk about. Okay. But what we do with our fluid shifts is we pee a lot. And so our body releases a lot of fluids because our body is like, there's too much pressure up here. We're kind of confused about it. And so you urinate a lot. You lose a lot of the fluid. But we do think that you still have problems resulting from having too much fluid in your head.

28:27So, for example, astronaut vision gets worse over time. And we think partly that's because you do have more pressure in your head because of more fluids in your head. And we think that's pressing on your eyeballs. and people also report that their wrinkles go away because with more fluid in their faces, it kind of presses out the wrinkles in their skin. And so, but they survive. So anyway, I think you can essentially have fluids pushing up on your head and survive. Your body has ways of dealing with it. They're kind of weird though. But bats have these special valves and now we're onto geckos.

28:59Okay, but no, or do they? Oh, I see. So the first thing I do is I was like, all right, well, I'm going to look it up. Do bats have these valves? And so I did find some websites, like when I just did a plain Google search, that were saying, like, oh, bats have these valves, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, all right, well, I'm going to find a scientific paper that talks about these valves. And I found mention of valves in the wings that, like, help them with flying. But I couldn't find mention of any valves related to helping them deal with being upside down. And in fact, I even found a paper that talked about how bats sleep upside down.

29:33And they were talking about how when they sleep upside down, there's an increase in their cranial pressure because fluids shift into their brain, which would suggest they don't have these valves. And in fact, that paper did not talk about valves at all. And in fact, they talked about how if you hold bats upside down for even longer, their heart remodels to deal with the fact that it needs to accommodate being upside down. But why can it be such a deep mystery whether or not bats have these valves? Bats are not like rare or microscopic or invisible or shifting into zombies in the morning mist. Like, why doesn't somebody just open up a bat carcass and look?

30:12Okay, well, so here's the thing. Another valve story that I've heard a lot, and I'm going to answer your question, just stick with me for a second, is that giraffes have these valves also because they have these very long necks, right? Yeah. And then when their head goes down to take a drink of water, they also need to have valves to make sure that their blood isn't rushing to their head and then rushing back, right? I'm imagining some complicated steampunk giraffe now. Energetically pumping stuff up and then pumping it back when the head turns around. This is a crazy system. Well, so the idea is that they've got these valves so that the blood is essentially stopped from pooling in the wrong spot.

30:48Oh, I see. And so there was an experiment that had these giraffes that they anesthetized, and they held them up in the air in these braces. And then they essentially, while they were anesthetized, lifted their heads up and then put their heads down and then kept track of where things were going. So they're tilting these snoozing giraffes? What a hilarious experiment. Oh, my gosh. I know. Amazing, right? And so then they were like monitoring changes in pressure and then like looking at like how the hearts were responding and stuff like that. And then they looked at that like, you know, where are the valves and stuff?

31:21And here it says histological examinations revealed no valves in the carotid arteries, although such arterial valves have been mentioned in more popular accounts such as the Encyclopedia Britannica online. Oh, no. Wow. You're calling out the Encyclopedia Britannica here, Kelly? I am not. The paper is. The paper is. And so I think that there has been like this valves deal with being upside down idea that has maybe escaped into the popular imagination. Another example of a gap between scientific and popular knowledge. Maybe. And I'd love to know where this came from. And so anyway, so, okay, basically what I'm saying is I watched a bunch of videos and the bat experts, when you ask them how bats managed to be upside down, they did not mention the valves.

32:09What they said was bats are so small, it doesn't matter. They have strong hearts and the distance between their heart and their head is small enough that they can just pump it and it's okay. Their hearts just get stronger if they need to. And they didn't say anything about valves. They just said they're small enough, doesn't matter. And I couldn't find any evidence of valves. This is a fascinating crossover between physics and biology, actually. It's not like you can take the same biological system and just scale it up by 1 ,000 or scale it down by 1 ,000 and assume it's going to operate the same way.

32:45Because pressure and volume and surface area and mass, these things all grow differently with size. And so they'll be totally out of whack if it gets too big or too small. So you're saying the same system, which is susceptible to getting dizzy and having blood pooling at our scale or maybe even giraffes, doesn't happen for bats. I think that is the answer. because like the bat experts were not mentioning the valves. I couldn't find the valves in the literature. If anybody wants to write in to correct me, please tell me. And then in a future listener questions episode at the beginning of the episode, I will say there is evidence of the valves and I just missed it.

33:20Send us proof of the alleged bat valves. That's right. Well, I think Daniel and I would always like to be corrected if we're wrong about something. So please let us know. Don't be shy. Write in with your well actually comments. Please do. Yes, please. Absolutely. Okay. And so another reason that we get dizzy is because we have this system in our head that helps us figure out, like, balance and where we are in the universe. Yeah. And this system, so I used the word earlier, and I will, for Daniel's sake, avoid biology jargon from here on out after I say the word one more time. Is this vestibular?

33:52Vestibular. Hmm. It's in your inner ear, and it's a system of tubes filled with fluid. Uh-huh. And when you move, like when you rotate your head side to side, the fluid starts going around the tube. It's an accelerometer. It is. Yeah, it's like an accelerometer. It is an accelerometer, yeah. It is an accelerometer. And your brain detects that the fluid is going around in that tube. And sometimes, so like if you start spinning in place over and over and over again, the fluid in that tube is going to start spinning and spinning and spinning and spinning. And then if you stop spinning all of a sudden, it's going to take a little while for that fluid to stop spinning.

34:31And so for a little while there, your brain still gets the message that you are spinning while your eyes are telling your brain, I am not spinning. And we think that that disconnect between what your ear is telling your brain and what your eyes are telling your brain is part of why you feel dizzy because you're getting conflicting information. And to be honest, we don't 100 percent understand dizziness. Has nobody done the experiment of taking a bunch of giraffes and putting them on a merry-go-round and interviewing them about whether they got dizzy? It seems like that would settle the question.

35:03Yeah, we need a lot of money for that experiment, probably. NSF, call us. That's right. That's right. We will take your money. But it does suggest, actually, that if you spin in the opposite direction, that could slow the fluid down. And that might be a way to help your dizziness go away faster, which is kind of a fun experiment. Interesting. Not medical advice, people. Not medical advice. Kelly is never giving official medical advice. I am not that kind of doctor. If your kid is dizzy, do not spin them the other way on our advice. It's just an interesting thought experiment. That's right. That's right.

35:35And so we've got tubes that go in multiple different directions to accommodate for spinning in multiple different directions. And then we also have a system of essentially crystals that are tied to hairs. Yeah. And this tells you about moving it like forward and backwards. And so if you go forward really quick, then those crystals are going to like get pushed forward and they'll pull on the hairs. And that's how your body knows that like, oh, we just kind of moved forward. And that sends a message to your brain that we move forward. No, we accelerated, Kelly. We accelerated. We accelerate. Thank you.

36:08Thank you. Your ear can't tell that you're moving or that it's velocity can only measure acceleration. It's like a bowling ball in the back of a truck, right? At 70 miles an hour on the highway, the bowling ball doesn't move. But if you hit the brakes, then the bowling ball rolls to the front. So even if you didn't know your velocity and you couldn't measure your acceleration in any other way, if you watch the ball, you can tell if you're accelerating in any direction. And that's what's happening in your ear. It's an accelerometer. Okay. Yes. So we've got two different kinds of accelerometers in our ears.

36:38And geckos and bats have these as well. Wow. Presumably, geckos and bats could get dizzy also if they moved too quickly and messed with these kinds of accelerometers. And so I'm guessing they have the same kinds of constraints because I did look up. Do geckos, for example, also have semicircular ducts? And they do also have these kinds of semicircular canals. And so I think they could possibly also get dizzy. They've got the same system that we have. I think I might have a special mutation because I tend to get dizzy when I hear too many biological Latin names. You know, I wanted to talk to you about that because you told me that you wanted me to say things like beetle one and beetle two.

37:20And I was thinking that from now on, we're not saying muons, gluons, no fermions, no bosons. It's particle one, particle two. What's good for the goose is good for the ginger. Yeah, we're going to simplify all of this from now on. Okay, so anyway, to finally answer the question, why don't geckos get dizzy? Yeah. Nobody knows. Nobody knows, right. Who knows? I think they might get dizzy. I think they have a similar semicircular canal system that we have, and sometimes we get dizzy. Yeah. Sloths hang upside down, and I think the answer for why they don't get dizzy is they move kind of slowly. That's an answer I found online.

38:00So maybe geckos also have to be a little careful about moving slowly sometimes, but if they're running away from a predator, Maybe they do get a little bit dizzy from time to time, but they just have to deal with it like the rest of us. I don't know about this valve thing. I didn't find evidence for it, but I'm welcoming people to correct me. And thanks for this fun question. I enjoyed reading about semicircular canals and the circulatory systems of bats and geckos. And this took me down so many different rabbit holes. Fascinating. It was a lot of fun. That's one of my favorite things about listener questions is how much do we learn in digging up the answers?

38:32Absolutely. All right, let's see if I gave a moderately satisfactory answer to Huntington and your son. Let's see how this went. So what do you think? That's pretty good. That's pretty good. I mean, it's pretty good. I wonder if, I mean, I can't go, okay, this is a good information I need to tell. Thank you for breaking down the question and exposing the assumptions we didn't even know we were making. I'm honestly surprised to learn that bats and giraffes don't have vowels like we had read about. I guess that is a lesson about trusting and verifying the information we read in pop-sci books. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised to learn that for something we've all experienced, there is not a clear explanation for dizziness.

39:17But I still was. My son enjoyed the answers and was very satisfied with them, something that I have never been able to provide with my answers. So thanks again, and keep up the great work.

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43:38all right rorschach almost got out of the barn lottie's looking a bit uncomfortable i'm going to be sitting with her for the hour after we're done but uh all right we're back to daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe and the extraordinarily fun watching of goats kidding.

43:57In the brief interval before Kelly's goat gives birth, we're going to try to answer a complicated question about what's going on inside spinning black holes. Here's a fun question I got from Joe. Hi, Daniel and Kelly. This question is more for Daniel. I understand that the inner workings of a black hole are a mystery to us, but I heard something about a couchy manifold. It's some kind of inner horizon, and I'm wondering how these complex mathematics might be explained. Oh, this is fun. I don't think I know what a couchy manifold is. Did I say it right? Couchy, yeah. Couchy. Well, no. So the answer is no, because that's not what I said.

44:44But I was trying to be gentle. I like that. We can call it couchy if you prefer to imagine like sitting on a couch while understanding these things. Oh, yeah. I like sitting on a couch while understanding the universe. So what is a couch? Oh, no. I already forgot. Couchy. Couchy. So a couchy horizon is where causality breaks down. And this is going to be really surprising because we're talking about classical physics, which is famous for being deterministic, which means that the past determines the future. You have a bunch of billiard balls. You shoot them at each other. They bounce off at some angle.

45:22They're going to do that every time because the past determines the future. There's no fuzziness. There's no randomness. We're ignoring quantum mechanics completely for this answer. Imagine we live in a universe ruled by classical physics. Usually we think, and we talked about this on the weather modeling episode, if you know everything about the universe, like where all the particles are, where they're going, their exact state of the universe, plus you know the rules of the universe, meaning like how things interact and how they will bounce off of each other, then you can predict the future, right?

45:57So perfect knowledge of the current state plus perfect knowledge of the rules, you should be able to predict the future. That's causality in a nutshell. Sure. But I thought we also determined that it was also a little too complicated and we couldn't actually predict the future. But technically, we should be able to if we could do those complicated equations. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. If you had perfect knowledge of the universe, which you never do, not even because of quantum mechanics, but because there's just too much information. Like in the case of the weather, we don't have enough buoys out in the ocean.

46:33We don't have enough airplanes with thermometers on them. We don't have all that information. But in principle, that's a practical problem and engineers could overcome it. The information exists and is accessible in a classical universe, which isn't our universe. So there's lots of reasons why this could never happen. But if you imagine a classical universe, it is possible in principle to have that information. It exists. and in that classical universe, because we've assumed the universe is classical and that there are rules. And if we knew those rules, then in principle, we could perfectly predict the future.

47:06Got it. Okay. That's the setup. But there are some caveats, right? And those caveats are what we're talking about today. Caveat number one is about the speed of light. And it's not actually directly related to the chemistry horizon, but it's a good warmup. Because what you actually need to predict the future is not all the knowledge in the universe about what's happening. Some things in the universe can't affect your immediate future. The only thing that can affect the immediate future is parts of the universe where light has had time to get here since that event. So for example, if there's an alien right now in Alpha Centauri and they're aiming a death ray at us and they fire the button, boom, right now to shoot that death ray at us, it cannot affect what's going to happen right here on Earth in the next millisecond, because there isn't time for that death rate to get here.

47:57So we say in physics, it's not part of our past light cone. Our past light cone is everything that can affect the immediate future. And because there's a speed limit on information and signaling, then things that can't get here are outside of that past light cone. Okay. I understand. It still feels like there's an approximately infinite number of things we can't measure and we've knocked a small fraction of them out. But okay, but all right, there's some things now we don't have to worry about. But of course, that death ray will eventually arrive at Earth. And in a couple of million years, that alien shooting that death ray, that event will be in the past light cone of our future, right?

48:38So it's a time dependent thing. Our past light cone is not just a location, it's locations and times. It's events in space time. Some of those things that are outside our past light cone right now can be the past light cone of people in our future, right? Because aliens, if they shoot that death ray, can kill our great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren. Okay, got it. So wait, what is the question that we're trying to answer then? Are we trying to answer who's going to die? Because then it seems very relevant to them. So we're trying to answer what is a Kaoshi horizon. And a Kaoshi horizon is a place where you cannot predict the future.

49:14Okay. All right? And you might wonder, how does that happen? What's going on? Classical physics, things are deterministic. In fact, they only depend on a subset of the universe, your past light cone. How is it possible to have in classical physics a setup where you can't predict the future? And the answer is if you have something in your past light cone, like a singularity, which is like a breakdown of classical physics, something that's unpredictable. bowl. The short answer is that a Cauchy horizon is what happens inside a spinning black hole where there's a singularity inside your past light cone.

49:51And a singularity is not something you can fold into your equations because it has an infinity in it. And so it makes it impossible to predict the future. Okay. So let's dig into that a little bit more and understand why that happens. And to do that, let's remember what a black hole is anyway. A black hole in popular science is often like a thing in space that has really strong gravity and sucks everything up, right? But actually gravity is not a force. It's curvature of space-time. Objects are moving to follow that curvature. And black holes are just places with really, really strong curvature because you have a lot of mass in a small area.

50:28So the curvature gets really, really strong. And it gets so strong that you get an event horizon. Event horizon is like a dotted line in space, and anything that goes inside the event horizon will never leave the event horizon. Okay. So that means that a particle inside the event horizon, its entire future is in the event horizon. There's no place in the event horizon and no particle trajectory you can even come up with that's ever going to leave the event horizon. Okay. And the reason is fascinating because the curvature inside the black hole is so strong that the singularity inside of the black hole is not like a location in space.

51:06Space and time get twisted, so that singularity is a location in time. You can think of it like inside the black hole, space is one directional, so the singularity is always in your future. No matter what you do, every path leads to the singularity. So the singularity is not like a place in space you can like fly by and try to avoid. It's not like the grocery store. You can go to it or you can not go to it. It's like next Tuesday. There's nothing you can do to avoid next Tuesday. It's coming. You can't pass it. You can't go around it. It's in your future. Okay. So before we were talking about being in a light cone where aliens were going to destroy us and there could be a singularity.

51:53And now we're talking about singularities in a black Yeah. And so the connection is, so remember we're answering the question, what is a Cauchy horizon? Cauchy horizon is a place in space where predictions break down. And they break down because you have a singularity in your past light cone. It's like in your history. And singularities are infinities. You can't use them to calculate. And it's a special kind of singularity because the normal kind of singularity we're talking about, the kind that are inside vanilla black holes are not like that. They're in your future. A singularity inside a vanilla black hole can never be in your past light cone.

52:30It's always in your future, right? It can't affect anything that's happening. It's always something that's going to happen to you. So how do you get a singularity in your past light cone so it can disrupt your predictions of the future? For that, you need a special kind of black hole. You need a rotating black hole. Black holes we've been talking about so far, just a dense point in space. Curvature is really, really strong. Space is bent so that the singularity is in your future. But if you spin that black hole, you get a very different kind of space-time structure. Something that happens in Einstein's gravity, which differentiates it from Newton's gravity.

53:09Newton says gravity is a force. Einstein says it's a curvature. Most of the time they give the same answers, but they differ when the mass is spinning. Newton says something that's spinning has the same force as something that's not spinning. It doesn't make any difference. Like the force on the moon from the earth doesn't depend on the fact that the earth is spinning, according to Newton. Einstein says, actually, gravity is curvature in response to energy. Spinning is a kind of energy. And he's got all these complicated equations. It's like 16 of them and a big tensor. So the direction matters and it causes a twist in space-time itself.

53:48So And so what it means is that inside a spinning black hole, there's two horizons. There's still the event horizon, just like a normal black hole. Once you fall in the event horizon, there's an inner horizon. That's the Cauchy horizon. The Cauchy horizon is still in your future. So you fall into the spinning black hole. Then there's no way to avoid falling in even further till you get past the Cauchy horizon. Once you're inside the Cauchy horizon, then the spinning singularity at its heart is not in your future. It's a different kind of singularity. It's actually avoidable. You can be in an orbit around that singularity.

54:25It's not just in your future. It's more like the grocery store than like next Tuesday. The problem is that that means it can be in your past. It can affect things that happen to you. It can send out signals from the singularity, which can arrive at you and change what happens to you. But nobody knows how to calculate what signals what a singularity send out. It's an infinity. It's a breakdown. So inside the Cauchy horizon, you have this thing which can be in your past, but it's also sort of nonsense, like you don't know how to calculate it. And because of that, it means you can't predict what's going to happen.

54:59So we have a situation in the universe where you have something in your past light cone, which can affect your future. We're not talking about faster than light communication, but also you don't know how to calculate it. So you can't predict your future. It's like you were saying before, if you don't have all the initial information, if You can't describe the current state of events. You can't predict the future. Well, what if there's something that's just indescribable in your current state of events? Then you can't predict the future. So the Cauchy horizon is the part of space-time inside a spinning black hole where you have this singularity in your past.

55:34And so predictions are just off. You just cannot make them. It's amazing because you think of classical physics as predictable, deterministic, like a clockwork universe. but there are places where it goes crazy. Does every black hole have a singularity in it? Every black hole has a singularity in it according to general relativity. Now, we don't think general relativity is correct. In fact, it probably breaks down at exactly this place, the singularity. So in reality, in our universe, are there places where you can't predict the future? Probably not because all of this is probably wrong and we need quantum gravity to describe what's going on here.

56:12And in fact, singularity is an example of why we think general relativity is probably wrong, because singularity's their very existence is in conflict with quantum mechanics. And quantum mechanics itself is actually kind of deterministic. It doesn't predict the exact outcome, but it predicts the probabilities in a very deterministic and specific way. So this would also mess up the determinism of quantum mechanical probabilities. So most physicists think, yeah, this is an interesting little quirk in the calculations when you assume the universe is classical, but nobody thinks that it is. And so it's probably irrelevant to reality.

56:47But it is a fascinating little corner of general relativity where predictions are just not possible. And that's why spinning black holes, which are probably in reality much more common than non-spinning black holes, have this two-stage structure. They have the event horizon and the Koushi horizon. Okay, so given what you just said, if you had to guess if any of this stuff is actually going on, would you guess? Zero percent. Okay, got it. Okay. Yeah. All right, Joe, thank you for your curiosity about spinning black holes and inner horizons and Cauchy manifolds. Let me know if that answered your question.

57:27Wow. Well, I think I got about 80 % of that. A spinning black hole with an event horizon where causality breaks down. That's fate worse than spaghettification, I think. But maybe spaghettification is the future that we can't predict with certainty. Although I think I'd be pretty certain to avoid the Kaoshi horizon. Thanks a lot.

58:01Thank you everyone for sharing your curiosity with us. If you have a question you'd like to send our way, Send it at questions at danielandkelly.org. We would love to interact with you. Please do write to us. We're not just saying that. And we would massively appreciate it if you'd be willing to leave us a review on Spotify, Apple, on whatever podcast app it is that you listen to us on. It helps other people find the show. And if you reviewed us several years ago and you're thinking, that doesn't apply to me, come back, review us again for the new show. Thanks. Aging doesn't stop and neither should you.

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