Listener Questions #44 - How fast can animals go, and how fast can animals grow? (featuring Dr. John Hutchinson)

27:28And we're back, and now we're answering a question from Aaron. Here is Aaron's question about the limits to how fast an organism can grow. Hey, Daniel and Kelly. I'm always frustrated in movies when creatures grow too fast, like gremlins or the aliens in the alien movie franchise. They're the size of a puppy, and then hours later, they're the size of a full-grown person. Seems biologically impossible. I've got no problem suspending disbelief, but this does make me wonder, what organisms grow the fastest? What are the biological, chemical, or whatever limits that define and limit the speed of growth?

28:05Seems like from an evolutionary perspective, growing super fast would be advantageous. Do a fox, great white shark, and human being all basically grow at the same speed? And if you were designing an alien creature to grow as fast as possible, what tweaks at the cellular level would you make to promote the fastest possible growth? And what would the trade-offs be? Also, do plants share similar growth limits to animals? I know kudzu can grow pretty fast. Thanks a lot. Thank you, Aaron, for including aliens. All right. Where do you want to start with that one, John? So with the aliens, I think the quick answer there is that they've still got to abide by some of the fundamental principles of whatever physiology they have.

28:50But their physiology could vary perhaps dramatically from what we have. I mean, there we're only left to speculate. But there's also the fundamental principles of size and growth probably generally hold even in alien organisms that growth rate tends to be slower in bigger things overall. all. And yeah, like when I watched the movie Alien Romulus, I hope this isn't a spoiler, but there's at least one xenomorph, one alien there that seems to grow in the space of the two hours of the movie from a little thing, like a little fetus-sized thing to something bigger than a human. So yeah, I mean, that caused a bit of credibility issues for me.

29:40But hey, it's movie logic and it's alien biology. So, I mean, can give it a benefit of the doubt there. So you say the fundamental rule is that bigger things grow more slowly. That must be a relative thing. Like an elephant adds a smaller percentage of its body weight every day or week as it's growing than a smaller creature does. Why is that? What's the rule that underlies that? Yeah. So that's due to the underlying physiology. Metabolic rate is the key thing there. that smaller animals have higher metabolic rates. And that's even true of people. Like when we're young, we have pretty high metabolic rates and metabolic rate slows down as we get older.

30:24And that relates to our growth rate. So there's a correlation between how quickly you burn energy and how quickly you grow. Is that what metabolic rate means? You're converting inputs into energy? How you use your internal energy to generate something else, to transform your internal energy like ATP molecules into something being done to your benefit, like growth. And why do bigger animals have a slower metabolic rate, or is that not known? It's a bummer either way. bigger animals grow more or have slower metabolic rates because again of the square cube law that because a growth rate depends on area to volume scaling bigger animals have less area relative to their volume so they can't use energy as quickly as a smaller animal can and yeah smaller animals because they have more area relative to their volume are shedding heat more quickly or gaining heat more quickly from their environment.

31:35So this seems like an argument that would work for warm-blooded animals that spend energy to stay warm. What about a snake or a lizard or something? I know they're losing energy to the environment, but they're not burning energy to stay warm, right? All organisms burn energy to stay warm if they're alive. If they're dead, then maybe not. But, yeah, because metabolism is fundamentally a wasteful process, it's not 100 % efficient. You don't convert your metabolic energy into whatever you want to do with it at 100 % efficiency. There's always heat shed. We have to remember heat. And heat in biology is just waste, a waste product of what's going on.

32:18So there's actually a lot of waste, a lot of heat. Like muscle tends to be only 30 % efficient. the rest goes away as heat. And so even small animals, if they're just sitting there, they're burning energy, quite a lot of energy just sitting there and not just to stay alive, but to remain warm, keep their organs at the right temperature during their physiology. But yes, it's true that smaller animals tend to be ectothermic, that is rely more on their external environment to keep them warm or be, quote unquote, cold blooded. Whereas larger animals tend to be endothermic, produce their own body heat more, rely more on that, maintain a more constant body temperature.

33:02Whereas ectothermic animals tend to vary their body temperature more because of their environment. And those two things, endoectothermia, are sort of a continuum, But it's complicated. Biology, it's complicated. Yeah. The ambient temperature does have a big effect on metabolic rate and on growth, especially in ectothermic or cold-blooded organisms. They rely on the environmental temperature to regulate their metabolic rate, and therefore it will influence their growth rate. Thanks for correcting my naive ninth-grade biology knowledge. makes perfect sense that even if cold-blooded animals are not trying to regulate their temperature, of course their metabolism is subject to the laws of thermodynamics, which means there's waste and it produces heat.

33:52That makes a lot of sense. Please correct my physics. Please correct my physics at any time. And so this connects back to the original question because this was how we were understanding why bigger animals have a smaller growth rate per mass. It's because they have a slower metabolism because they have more volume than surface area. Is that the right connection? Yeah, but it also ties into some really interesting other things that are tied into metabolic rate. And metabolic rate also depends on having the right resources. You need to be able to get enough food and so forth. That's very important.

34:30But fundamentally, if we go down to the cellular level, like the person asked, the rate of cell division is a fundamental limit on growth rate. You have to be able to do mitosis, split your cells quickly enough to grow. And that depends on the metabolic rate in part, but it also depends on stuff that's going on inside the cell, the various molecular processes of the nucleus. And a fundamental thing, a really cool thing that limits growth rate is DNA repair. If you think about it, if you're growing your cells really, really quickly, you'll potentially accumulate more and more errors as you're splitting your cells over and over again.

35:16And if that error accumulates over and over again without getting fixed, then you'll get potentially either malformation of the organism or, in a worse case, cancer. Because cancer really is an overactive growth rate. It's uncontrolled cell division, basically. So growth rate, if it's too excessive, could even be cancerous or at least lead to malformation. And that depends on the various repair mechanisms in cells, DNA repair, program cell death, other things that are there to correct for error. Error in cells is a very big problem, both in the actual longevity of the cells, but also in an evolutionary context.

36:00there's surely huge selection on repair mechanisms for cells to make sure they don't go haywire and just produce lots of errors and malformations or cancer or whatnot. So we might all be growing much faster if we could perfectly replicate and we didn't have to worry about getting cancer. That's right. If we can control that repair mechanism, that could do some wonderful things for growth rate and other things like lifespan. I could be twice as big. Why would you want that? I'm just kidding. I don't really want to be twice as big. I'm plenty big. But it sounds like when you're watching alien xenomorph Romulus or whatever, your real biology constraint is like, hey, that alien should have a lot of cancer given how fast it grows.

36:48Oh. Unless it has some super alien correction mechanism. So who knows? It could be using silicon rather than carbon as its fundamental molecule. So then it could cheat. That would be a great twist if we could use alien xenomorphs as a way to find a cancer cure, right? Like what if they have some cool biochemical technology in them? Write it up. There's your movie script right there. Netflix, call me. That's right. Other things that become important to growth rate are also parental care that animals that are cared for more by their parents can potentially grow more quickly, especially if they're being provided by their parents with lots of high nutrient foodstuffs.

37:33but also reproductive rate will influence growth rate. That if you need to get to adulthood quickly so that you can reproduce yourself and your population quickly, then growth rate will need to be adequate. Although there's a trade-off with the next thing that we'll talk about, which is lifespan. So growth rate, metabolic rate, reproductive rate, locomotor speed, all these things are intertwined in interesting ways. It depends. Okay, so you can't replicate too quickly because you might get cancer. If you start growing your bones or your muscles too fast, is there ever a tradeoff with, like, the quality of what you're producing?

38:12Like, if you make bone really quickly or muscle really quickly, is it more likely to tear or to break? Oh, definitely, yeah. So bone is a wonderful example that bone takes time to mature. You have to produce, like in our leg bones, we have to produce a cartilage model first with living cells. And then gradually those cells are replaced by mineral that gets laid down by other cells. And so it takes time to produce the mineral of our bone that forms the supportive network. That cartilage gradually goes away. And when we go from a pretty squishy, flexible, but living structure made of cartilage to a structure that's mostly made of non-living, but very strong, stiff, supportive mineral.

38:57So, yeah, you couldn't lay down a bone very, very quickly as a mineral substance. You need that time to construct the cartilage. It's like cheese. You can make like a really soft, fresh cheese, but you want like a nice, hard Parmesan. John, like that takes years in an Italian cave, doesn't it? Patience pays off. Another thing that's important is different rates of growth of organs. So organs will grow at different rates depending on what they are and what they need to be in the adult organism. And different molecules govern the rate of growth. So like liver growth is regulated by bile acid flux.

39:42So the bile that, you know, the liver is very well known for using helps regulate how quickly the liver grows. And every different organ, there are different things that regulate it. And the size of the organ at different points in the life cycle will be relatively different depending on how quickly it's growing. I'm always amazed that the liver grows back at all and that they can do like surgeries where you get a little bit of somebody's liver. I had always assumed that the liver was like a thing that was made and then would not grow anymore. But bodies are amazing. They sure are. Yeah. And by tweaking those growth rates of organs, you can get really interesting changes of organisms.

40:23So you can get bigger hands or longer limbs or whatever by tweaking differential growth of body parts. Do we know if any of these rules that we've talked about apply to plants as well? Or is that just like a totally different game? Oh, yeah. A lot of those rules would apply to plants as well, definitely. Like the DNA repair stuff, metabolic rate, all that stuff. I guess the one thing that wouldn't apply is how fast plants can run because, yeah, they do things differently. Basically still zero. It also applies to dairy products, right? If you take, for example, yogurt and you put it in milk, it makes more yogurt, just the same way the liver grows.

41:03Here, I'm really leaning on my ninth grade biology. Are you hungry today also? Tumbleweeds might argue with you in terms of the plant locomotion thing, but they're cheating. Yeah, they're cheating. I thought tumbleweeds were just like dead plants that sort of accumulated and then blew across the desert or whatever. Are they alive still? I'm sure there's something alive in there like they're seeds, but I was joking. I mean, just when you mentioned plants and movement, immediately an image of tumbleweeds jumped into my mind. And yeah, I mean, there are plants that move, but just slowly. You could like literally tell me almost anything about plants.

41:51And as long as you had a straight face, I would believe it because plants can do so many things that blow my mind. Like, you know, we had an episode a while back about a plant that like if, you know, if a branch touches the ground again, it will root. And then if you cut it, it will produce a new tree. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. That's not how animals work. That can't be how anything works. And anyway, I'm very animal centric. Plants seem to break all the rules that seem logical to me. Yeah, I try to remain humble as a trained zoologist, reminding myself that fungi and plants and other non-animals can do very cool stuff that we shouldn't let our animal bias leave us ignorant of.

42:29Yeah, I'm way less excited about hugging fungi and plants, but yeah, they still do some fascinating things. I've got one last question about sharks. So you mentioned that when we're building bone, that takes a long time, but sharks are mostly cartilage instead of bone. So can sharks grow much faster than the rest of us? I don't know that that's true, that sharks can grow faster. I do know of some studies looking into sharks not having as much cancer. At least some sharks. And there's like recently in the news over the past decade or so, there's been a lot of interest in these Greenland sharks that can get pretty big.

43:13These are sharks that range into kind of Arctic waters. They can get quite big, but also it's been realized they can perhaps live as long as 500 years or something like that. Wow. And presumably they're growing very slowly during that time. But also it seems like they, I think, if I remember correctly, and other sharks just don't get a lot of cancer. I feel like that would be hard to confirm because we just, I mean, we don't watch sharks for that long. But I guess we've dissected and eaten a lot of sharks. So we probably would have seen plenty of cancer if they got a lot of cancer. Yeah. I thought you were going to tell me that I was wrong about sharks being made mostly of cartilage and I was going to be super embarrassed.

43:59But then you said that, no, they don't grow that fast. So anyway, big relief for me here. But also sharks have calcified cartilage that forms a lot of their stiff supportive network. So they do lay down mineral. But still, it's a lot more living material than in a typical bony fish. Okay. 500 years is a lot older than the oldest Parmesan I'm aware of. So in the shark versus Parmesan competition, it sounds like sharks are winning for those keeping score at home. We need to crack open some ceramics in Pompeii and see if there's like any cheese still in there. And on the cheese topic, I will say that cheese are very fast.

44:41You ever seen the cheese roll in Scotland where they roll a cheese down the hill and people roll down trying to chase it? Nobody ever catches that cheese. Yeah, yeah. You win again, gravity, unfortunately. I just want to make sure we're asking John questions he hasn't prepared for. That's great. That's great. I've never witnessed the rolling cheese. I think I've seen cartoons of it. Maybe it was in The Simpsons or something like that. I don't know. A cultural touch point for sure. Yes. All right. Aaron, what did you have to say? Hey, Daniel and Kelly. Thanks for answering my question about growth.

45:17I tried not to take it personally when your guests claim that, quote, metabolism is a fundamentally wasteful process. As my kids say, stop body shaming. Also, a little digging on my own uncovered a somewhat unbelievable fact that a blue whale calf can add up to 200 pounds of body weight, which is about the equivalent of one xenomorph, per day. Let's just hope that DNA repair process is keeping up. Thanks again, Aaron.

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48:07All right, this last question has a little bit of something for everyone, a little bit of biology, a little bit of physics. So Daniel will step in here too. So Rosalyn wanted to know. I was thinking about the relationship between space and time. and I was wondering if there's a correlation between all of that and the experience and time scale of creatures so like do smaller animals have shorter lives because they experience time at a faster pace than those of us who are bigger taller and further away from the impact of space time curvature or are they just similar but not at all related to each other?

48:51Thanks. So we're going to have part of this question go to Daniel. And then part of this question, I would love to know more about how size impacts lifespan. So first of all, Daniel, is space time curvature impacting the lifespan of organisms? Absolutely it is. What? But probably not in a way that we can really measure. You know, space-time curvature is how space responds to mass. And when there's a lot of mass or energy density around, clocks tick more slowly. So clocks in the surface of the Earth tick slower than clocks out in space. Clocks near a black hole tick very, very slowly. So the fact that we're all here on Earth means that our biological clocks tick more slowly.

49:36And that's also true for the whole universe. Parts of the universe that are far from black holes would have clocks that tick more times since the Big Bang than clocks that are near black holes. And so in that sense, even the universe, you can't say, has a single age. It depends on where you are in space. So if you have a creature and it has a lot of mass, it's a blue whale, there's going to be a little bit more energy density there, which means its clocks will tick more slowly. Is that measurable? Almost certainly not, because the amount of mass necessary to make clocks tick more slowly is really large.

50:13Even clocks on the surface of the Earth, because of the Earth's enormous mass, tick just barely more slowly than clocks in orbit. So even a blue whale is not going to measurably affect clocks, but technically it does happen. So you're saying it experiences more time because its clock is ticking more slowly and therefore it lives longer? Is that the, because when you kept saying clocks tick more slowly, I keep thinking, do you mean like their heart beats more slowly? But no, you mean like the amount of time it's experiencing. I mean, it's clock beats more slowly from somebody from the outside. So we see it living in slow motion.

50:50So it's younger, right, than we would be. And it sees our clocks moving at high speed. So it sees the rest of the universe as like operating on fast forward. So it lives longer according to our clocks because it's living in slow motion. Does that make sense? Yes, but at such a negligible difference. Yeah. Because blue whales are huge but small relative to the size of the universe or something, right? That's right. But if you have aliens who have masses of a star or something, then this could be a real factor. That's what I was going to go to because everything matters in a xenomorph universe frame of reference.

51:29We always have to take our biology to that. So, yeah, a star-sized organism would perceive our time as very different from the time it was living in. And we need more science fiction about that. We definitely do. Yeah. So are you saying then that an alien that was so big it was the size of the sun would experience time more slowly and thus live longer than the rest of us? Yes. It would see us die off more quickly because our clocks tick faster than its clocks. Yeah. So there was that Star Trek movie where they met some sort of huge thing that was God or thought it was God. Remember which movie that was?

52:14Like it was Final Frontier or something like that? Oh, anyway. They blew up God. So it was all fine in the end. I thought Star Trek was supposed to be the nice version of the sci-fi movie. The one where they were like nice to other creatures. I think it was a naughty god or thought it was a god and it was naughty. So it had to get proton torpedoed or whatever they did to it. Got it. Got what was coming to him. Yeah. All right. Well, I really like the biology answers because the physics answers kind of break my brain, but they're amazing. But let's get a different perspective. So how does size impact lifespan when the framing is biology, John?

52:52I think there it's simpler, which is nice because biology is often so messy. Oh, maybe it's not simpler, but it's simple. There's a direct relationship between size and lifespan in organisms. Generally speaking, bigger things live longer. And growth rate is involved there. Metabolic rate is involved there. All this stuff that we talked about earlier. So bigger things take longer to become big. But still, they can get bigger as long as they have enough resources to do so. And that's basically it, that we don't see a lot of small things at all that live very long. If you think about a mouse, it's lucky to live maybe a year.

53:35I don't know if kids have ant farms anymore, do they? I don't see them flying off the shelves at science museums, but I still see them sold at science museums. I really have deep hope that kids still like ant farms and maybe like them more than YouTube or TikTok. But anyway, I mean, if you have an ant farm, you'll notice that ants die pretty quickly and other small things die quickly. And if we go down to the bacteria level, they're dropping dead like crazy. So there's a very strong relationship between size and lifespan across biology. And I remember hearing this sort of simplistic explanation that it was again about metabolism, that larger animals have a slower metabolism and a slower heart rate, and that like mice and elephants live the same number of heartbeats, but that mice just have their hearts beating faster and so fewer ticks on the clock.

54:31Is that true or is my biology wrong? I think the heart rate thing is very, very, very coarsely true. And that would only apply to organisms that have hearts. But I mean, that applies to a lot of animals. But yeah, I mean, growth rate, metabolic rate, all that stuff is tied into lifespan pretty tightly. But a neat thing that ties into this kind of concept of biological time is that small organisms are vulnerable, so they tend to have high metabolic rates, so they can get to a size where they're able to do all their adult stuff quickly enough. And that relationship of size and vulnerability and metabolic rate has evolved.

55:16There's selection for small things to have high metabolic rates and grow quickly. And also there's selection for lifespan to be short, because if lifespan is shorter, then organisms can reproduce themselves more quickly. The greater your size is, it's probably likely that your reproductive rate is going to be slower. Otherwise, the earth would be covered in whales.

56:07So as long as the environment is pretty stable, big things do okay. There tends to be an increase in the number of big-bodied adult species over time. But as soon as the environment changes, kaboom, they go extinct. And that's why we see these mass extinction pulses is because of especially rapid environmental change is something that big organisms cannot adapt to. They go extinct more quickly. They speciate more slowly. and therefore there are less big things in a rapidly changing environment. And mass extinctions tend to hit the bigger things harder. What a cool experiment we could do to test that, which is like land on a bunch of exoplanets and understand the relative stability of those ecosystems and see if the ones with more stable ecosystems really do have more big land animals.

57:02That would be crazy. Unfortunately, to bring us back to reality, We're doing that experiment right now with climate change in a way that's never happened before. Even the asteroid that hit Earth, it did its share of devastation 66 million years ago, wiping out the Mesozoic dinosaurs and many other things. There was clearer size selection going on. But some of the extinction patterns happened over thousands of years, whereas right now the stuff we're doing over the scale of decades is pretty unprecedented in terms of extinction. We're having a huge bias toward getting rid of big things because of loss of habitat and hunting and so on and so forth.

57:43That always hits the big things quicker. And that's followed on from an ice age just, you know, 10 ,000 years ago that, again, wiped out a lot of the megafauna. So, yeah, that's our experiment. It's hard for ecosystems to respond on the timescale of like a Parmesan rather than like geological timescales. Yes, yes. Again, bring it back to the cheese frame of reference. Exactly. We got the Xenomorph frame of reference and the cheese frame of reference, and that's all you need for a podcast. That's right. We got the two important frames of reference. And I have the mental image of an ocean stocked, filled with whales, overflowing with whales, all of them eating a wheel of Parmesan.

58:26Okay, I thought you'd bring the cheese in there. That's great. Good. I'm nothing if not predictable.

58:35Before we go to Rosalyn, do you want to tell us what you've been up to and give us a quick update on the cool stuff you've been doing since we last chatted? What have I been doing? I've been studying crocodiles a lot, both living ones and extinct ones, how they move, how their movement has evolved. That's a big focus of mine lately with various postdoctoral researchers and Ph.D. students and master's students and undergrads. So that's been a lot of fun, trying to unravel the history of crocodiles and how they move in more detail because they started off as wonderful, small, kind of cat-sized, quick animals and then evolved into the diversity of different forms that ultimately got wiped out by that mass extinction at the end of the Cretaceous, leaving just the crocodiles and alligators that we're familiar with.

59:27So there was a great diversity of crocodiles back in the Mesozoic that we can't really appreciate from a modern perspective of the 25, 28 species of all fairly similar crocodilians. Whereas back 230 million years ago, there were these really amazing, more mammal-like crocodiles. And then later, things like whale-like crocodiles. And yeah, crazy, crazy kinds of ecologies and body plans and locomotor styles of crocodiles over their heyday. So I'm doing a lot about that. That's keeping me very busy. Cool. Oh, you know, crocodiles also have very fascinating parasites, which you can, you know, keep your eyes open for.

1:00:11Haley Dutton recently described a new parasite from the eye of a crocodile, and she named it, she got to name the whole genus, and she named it Later Gator, which I thought was fun and rolls off the tongue. So anyway, keep your eyes open for fun parasites, including parasites on their eyes. That's why they have crocodile tears. It's all the parasites. Yeah, perhaps. do you make sure that their mouths are held shut in some way before you are measuring them? Oh, yeah. So when I work with live crocodiles, which I've done a fair amount, for health and safety reasons, you do have to worry about the bitey end and the tail.

1:00:52The tail end, too, because the tail is also a weapon. But the bitey end is worse. And luckily, while crocodile jaw closing muscles are very strong, If you ever look at the back of the head of a crocodile, it looks like they have fatty jowls, especially if the crocodile is lying down. That's not fat. That's not jowls. That's jaw-closing muscle. It's real meaty muscle. And so they have the greatest bite force of organisms in absolute terms. They can bite extremely hard. But their jaw-opening muscles are weak. So if you close a crocodile's mouth, it's not so good at opening the mouth again. And so what we do is close the crocodile's mouth by restraining it and then put electrical tape around the mouth.

1:01:39And that's enough to secure the snout shut so it can't bite anyone. They still have teeth that stick out. So the jaws still have sharp bits on the end that you have to watch for. But still, that's a lot better than getting bitten by one because even a small crocodile can really hurt you. All right. Well, that's intense. and hopefully you'll come back on the show in the future and tell us more about what you've learned about crocodiles. I'd love to. Awesome. We're going to send this answer to Rosalyn and see what she had to say. Hi, Danielle and Kelly. Thanks for answering my question. It makes a lot of sense.

1:02:12It has more to do with biology than space and time. I was up very late that night reading a lot of ancient philosophers and they had some really big ideas about the universe and nature and it just kind of got me into thinking. Thanks for bringing it back a little bit closer to home. Biology makes sense. I appreciate you.

1:02:58You can email us at questions at danielandkelly.org. We really do want to hear from you. And you can find our website, www.danielandkelly.org, where you'll also find an invitation to join our Discord, where everybody comes and talks about the amazing universe. And we also have the most amazing moderators. This is an iHeart Podcast. Thanks for joining us. The official language of football is trash talk. late night group chats, memes, and unbelievable highlight clips. That's why Boost Mobile brings you our new global connection plan. The first plan ever made for WhatsApp. Get unlimited data, talk and text, international roaming, and calls to over 100 countries for just$40 a month.

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