Listener Questions #45

25:58She's a very smart biologist. But yes, these things are complicated. And so the thing that gives your hair color is a pigment that we have two versions of. We have a version that gives you like black and brown colors and a version that gives you sort of blonde reddish sorts of colors. And we have receptors in our like hair follicles and the cells that are important for making hair color. And those receptors, essentially, they'll get bound by a hormone. And if they get bound by a hormone, they're like, bam, I'm making more, you know, black, for example. And so it's all about like what receptors you have and the hormone messages that are being sent to those receptors.

26:38So I think this is fascinating because it's more complex than people usually imagine where like you have things encoded in your genes that your body does. Instead, you have things encoded in your genes that your body can do. And whether it does them depends on whether it gets messages like, okay, now do this. Like you have this library of capacities and only some things actually get turned on. That's fascinating. Yeah, right. And so my understanding is that part of the story about why hair color can change when kiddos are very young is that when you are in your mom, you're getting bathed in her hormones.

27:12So the receptors in your body are getting messages that your body's not producing, but your mom's body is. And so that can influence your hair color. And I wish you all had just seen Kelly's little dance she did when she said, you're in your mom. I mean, it's probably a great place to be. When you're like getting all cozy there, you're like, hmm. I mean, I personally was a baby who stayed in the womb for an extra couple of weeks until they eventually had to kick me out. And so, you know, I imagine it's a lovely place in there.

27:45Much easier than real life. But anyway, so so partly when you're very young, you're getting exposed to the hormones that your mom makes. But then as you get older, you start making your own hormones and you start making more of your own hormones or different kinds of hormones. And so the messages that your hair receptors are getting change over time. Okay. And that explains why your hair can go from being one color when you're young to another color when you're older. And it's apparently very common for light-haired kids to end up having darker hair. And part of that has to do with, like, hormones during puberty.

28:24You start, you know, making more hormones. Those hormones are also talking to your hair receptors. But your hair doesn't change color overnight because of something that we talked about in listener questions episode number 25. And this is the episode that was being referred to by the listeners where we were talking about why you sometimes go gray after a very stressful event. Oh, I see. And so this is the hair cycle. And the idea here is that each follicle on your head has a cycle where for something like four to six years, your hair is growing continuously. Did you just say wherefore as in, you know, like colonial times transition sentences?

29:04Did I? I don't know. I'm trying to think about what I'm going to say next. And so I've already forgotten what I said. How to form hair with. Much ado about hair today. There you go. Anyway. So it takes some time for these things to register. Well, yeah. So your hair will grow for four to six years, but then your hair will take a break. And it will rest. And during that resting stage, the cells that produce pigments that go into your hair die. and then you have stem cells that will produce more of the pigment-making cells, and those new, fresh, baby-like pigment-making cells will go down into your hair follicle to start the cycle again.

29:43Got it. And so you need one set of cells to die and a new set of cells to come in with their new instructions reflecting the new hormone milieu in your teenage body before you start getting that change in hair color. I see. So it's not just that we shouldn't think of ourselves as having one hair color, but instead we should think of ourselves as capable of producing a spectrum. And the color that's actually on your head somehow reflects the history of the hormones that your hair cells have received, but also in a time-delayed way because cells have to die and be replaced. So in some sense, like a person who has brown hair is telling me that like over the last few years, their hair cells have received the hormones to produce brown.

30:34Yes-ish. But just to clarify, like you said that we've got a gradient of hair colors. I don't think I have anything in me that could make me make red hair. Like I don't. Really? Nothing. There's nothing that could happen in the world. I will not. Asteroid impact. Right, right. I don't think that I have the genes for the right kind of receptors or something like that. So I'm not capable of producing red hair, but I am capable of producing a range of browny black colors or something like that. So our genomes can control the sort of spectrum that hormones can influence. That makes a lot of sense.

31:11Or at least that is how I understood it while I was doing the reading. So hopefully that's totally correct. If not, write to me and tell me I'm wrong. I always want to know. And is it like an on-off thing? You know, if I get no hormones, am I producing blonde and then I have to get hormones to produce brown? Or is it that I need to get the blonde hormones or get the brown hormones? I think it's a little more complicated. So it can depend on like how many copies of the genes you have for certain receptors. And so if you have like both copies of the genes for a certain receptor, you're like more likely to produce brown and you're more receptive to the amounts of hormones that are in your body.

31:49But we have now slammed into the wall of Kelly's knowledge at 100 miles an hour. So summary is, it's complicated. It is complicated. Over 100 genes involved, it sounds like. And it changes over the course of your life as your hormones change over the course of your life. So the listeners also wanted to know if it was evolutionarily advantageous that their babies were going from blonde-headed babies to darker-haired babies. And at the end of the day, I think the answer is probably not. We don't, like, we probably don't know. I can't see a benefit of like, you know, does a blonde haired baby hide better in the snow?

32:29And like, if you, you know, worried about predators around, I can't come up with a good explanation. And it's not about like blonde haired babies are cuter because we know that moms will find their own babies cute, even if they do look like Richard Nixon. Or Danny DeVito. He was the cutest. Anyway, but so I looked for hypotheses that people came up with. Yeah. And the closest I could come up with is that blonde and red hair might just be a side effect of needing to have a lighter colored skin when you live in areas that get less sunlight. So UV light is important for us for the production of vitamin D.

33:09And so if you live in areas that get less sunlight or darker for more times of the year, having lighter skin allows you to absorb more of that UV light and helps you with problems related to vitamin D. And so as our skin lightened, we might have ended up with lighter hair as sort of a side effect of the lighter skin because a lot of the same pigments that go in your hair are also found in your skin. Hmm. So this doesn't tell us why it's beneficial for your hair color to change from when you're a baby to when you're an adult. But I think the point is that hair color in general, like having a variety of hair colors, isn't really something that selection has probably acted on.

33:52It's probably just something that got pulled along because of something that was happening to our skin. And so you wouldn't necessarily expect there to be an evolutionary advantage to your hair going from blonde to darker colored when hair color is just sort of like pulled along because of selection on something else anyway. Right. And so this is sort of a subtle point in evolution, at least for a physicist, that it's not necessary for every trait you have, even ones that have survived selection, to be individually advantageous. They can just be linked to something else, which is an advantage.

34:26So, for example, if being a physicist is an advantage, but it also means you have a terrible sense of humor, then you might ask, like, how do all these people with terrible senses of humor find mates and have children and whatever? And the answer is because of their amazing physics knowledge. And that's the reason it survives. Just as an example to illustrate the point. That seems like two hurdles to get over instead of just one. But I think I understand what you were trying to get at there. But I want to be really clear that the stuff that I just said was pretty hand-wavy. I was trying to find some answer other than, I don't know, but I wanted to give at least a guess.

35:03Anyway, I don't think we really know the answer, but that might be what's going on. All right, cool. Okay, so I think that that answers our listeners' questions. And so let's go ahead and see what they had to say. Hello again, Daniel and Kelly. Thanks for returning to the subject, taking some time to answer further questions about hair color. I think I understand a little more now. I understand how both genes and hormones play into the variability of hair color across people and across time. And more than that, I think I understand something about how these questions and answers work, because I knew that Kelly was going to say, it's complicated.

35:44about three seconds before Kelly said, it's complicated. Thanks again. Kelly, your answer on hair color was very informative, and I actually learned something. Thank you.

36:07Hey, everybody. I'm Tarika Foster-Brasby. What's up, y 'all? I'm your girl, Cheryl Swoops. When you tune in to a new episode of our podcast, Levels to This, you're definitely going to get some spicy WNBA analysis. I see a lot of men who get into the space because now it's a hot product and that grinds my gears to dust. But then the conversation goes on and levels up beyond basketball. It's been really, really cool seeing kind of these women just really step into their power off the court and understand that they are basketball, right? And they're not asking for permission. Because on Levels to This, the game is always the starting point.

36:51But we're more than just hoops. And the real conversation is what we actually bring. This is Levels to This, the podcast about all the levels of stuff that women go through. Listen to Levels to This with Cheryl Swoops and Tarika Foster-Brasby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Manga Shatikula, and I'm back with a new season of the podcast Skyline Drive. This time I'm diving into a rabbit hole of peptides, organoids, blood boys, blue zones, and brain replacement to try to understand what this longevity obsession is all about and what it really means to live forever for all of us.

37:32I learned about some rad science. I can make a brain for you, and then we can test what draw is the best for your brain, as opposed to his brain. Here are some hard truths. I would expect Indians to age faster, but I did not expect it to be almost a four to five year acceleration. And get myself into a world of trouble. I'd say probably start bone smashing. That doesn't work. Make it look more defined. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, How to Live Forever on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We've all been there. We've had seasons that have shaken everything.

38:18The question is, what remains when the shaking stops? Hi, I'm Gary Valenciano. channel. And on my podcast, Unshaken with Gary Vee, I sit down with amazing personalities and we talk about the seasons that nearly broke them. The lows that carried them to their highs. Listen to Unshaken with Gary Vee on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Bill, why is my eye twitching? Does this mean I'm in perimenopause? Maybe I have adult ADHD. I need to look this up. Where's my phone? Juliana, your phone is hot to the touch. I think it's asking you for a break. You know what?

38:58Maybe I should just ask ChatGPT. Or maybe we can ask an actual human. Yes, like a couple sex therapist. Whoa, that escalated quickly, but okay. Because I have questions. We have questions. And I bet everyone has questions. Like, is it normal to sleep in separate bedrooms? We do that. How about this one? Is bribing your kids bad parenting or just negotiating? Oh, and I still do need to know, why was my poop green that one time? Hypothetically, right? Okay, well, instead of letting the internet guess, we've got actual people answering these exact questions. And laughing with us has got to be better than spending three hours down a rabbit hole online.

39:35Listen to Bill and Juliana. The podcast. On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

39:56And we're back. And now we've got a question from Don in Palm Springs, California. This is Don Villeen in Palm Springs, California. Daniel and Kelly, thank you for your podcast. There's always something new for me to learn. Suppose there's no iron in the surface layer of a planet. How would an intelligent being who has evolved on that planet discover magnetism? Are other elements sufficiently magnetic or likely sufficiently plentiful to take the place of iron in discovering magnetism? Is understanding magnetism and likely electricity as well a necessary condition for a civilization to advance to a scientific level where they could receive and send signals through space other than whatever visible light they could see?

40:44And of course, so far all planets with any intelligent life have had iron on or near their surface. I wonder how delayed their scientific progress would have been without iron. All right, Don, thank you for thinking so deeply about the experience of intelligent aliens living on a planet without iron. Really fascinating thought experiment. Daniel already wants to be your BFF.

41:13Well, I think before we answer Don's question about an alternative planet, we have to remind everybody how we discovered magnets and how it fed into our ability to send radio signals to potential aliens. Give it to me, Daniel. Magnets have been known almost forever. I mean, basically before we have any recorded histories. So historians refer to this as in antiquity, which basically means we've known about this forever and we can't tell when it was discovered. and that's because we have a lot of iron on our planet and there's a lot of magnets just sort of lying around and historically they call these things load stones so you have iron and it gets oxidized with oxygen again our friend because oxygen likes to bind with everything and it makes something called magnetite and it'll just like sit on the surface and be magnetic and so we have writings from like ancient greece and china and india people writing about these rocks they found that will attract iron.

42:08And so this has been known forever. And did they use that iron for anything, like to forge swords and stuff? Yeah. So once we got to the Iron Age and people were like smelting iron and making iron and stuff, then people noticed this. And then using magnets for practical purposes like navigation, that's actually much more recent. It's like maybe a thousand years ago in China and in Europe that people figured out this whole connection between magnets and directions on the Earth. So people have been using magnets in technology for about a thousand years. But it was only a couple of hundred years ago that people connected electricity, obviously also known in antiquity, lightning and static electricity, to magnetism.

42:54And these were really important experiments by Orsted. Essentially, he connected electricity and magnetism because he accidentally ran a bunch of currents through wires near a compass and saw the compass twitch. And he was like, wait a second, why is it when I have electricity, it affects the magnets? And that was the first observed connection between electricity and magnetism. And that led to a whole avalanche, you know, Ampere's law, the Biosavart law, eventually unification by James Clerk Maxwell in the 1860s of electricity and magnetism into a single coherent theory of a combined phenomenon.

43:30That's when we realized these two things are just the front and back of a single elephant. They're not completely separate phenomena. We've just noticed them differently and never connected them. And Maxwell showed us how they're intimately connected. They're really just one phenomena. This tangent's not going to go too far, I promise. But like 1854 is when Jon Snow figured out the cholera pump stuff, all right? Like, so check out our cholera episodes. What an amazing time it must have been to be alive when we're figuring all of this stuff out. We're like, oh, it's, you know, you don't get cholera because you were breathing stuff in.

44:02It's in the water. Of course, you live in a time where the water could give you cholera. That's less good. But like, you know, we're figuring out all of this stuff is about electricity and magnetism. Like it must have been really exciting. Yeah. And I hope that in 150 years, podcasters wax philosophical about how amazing it was to be alive now when we're figuring all this stuff out. Because there's still a huge amount of stuff to figure out about the universe and biology and even chemistry. Oh, whoa, even chemistry. And it is chemistry that tells us basically why iron is so amazing. Iron is a great way to discover magnetism because, number one, there's a lot of it.

44:38The Earth is like 32 % iron. So there's just a whole bunch of iron on Earth. And that's not unusual for rocky planets because stars make iron. Stars, remember, are doing fusion. They're squeezing protons together to make helium. And that helium gets squeezed together. You get carbon and oxygen and neon and heavier stuff. And if the star is hot enough to squeeze together these heavier elements, you can keep doing that all the way up to iron. Above iron, it costs energy to fuse heavy elements together. So stars don't make a whole lot of stuff above iron. So iron is sort of the natural endpoint for stars' fusion process of manufacturing heavy elements.

45:18So there's a ton of it in the universe. And that's why it dominates our planet's core. and that's very helpful because it's really, really good at making magnets. Remember where magnetism comes from, electricity comes from electric charges. You can have like an electron, it makes an electric field. We don't have magnetic charges in the same way, but there's this connection between electricity and magnetism that a moving electric charge will make a magnetic field. So you take your electron, you move it in a circle, you get a magnetic field. That's how an electromagnet works. Or if you have an electron and it has a spin to it, that kind of quantum mechanical motion will also give it a tiny little magnetic field.

46:00So electrons are little magnets, essentially. And iron has a partially filled outer shell. It's called the 3D subshell. There's room in there for a bunch of electrons. And remember, electrons fill empty slots individually before pairing up, which means that because there's four unpaired electrons, they're all spinning in the same direction. There's not like one up and one down. They all like to fill the up before they fill the down. So iron has a bunch of these unpaired electrons all spinning in the same direction, making a little magnetic field. And the atomic spacing of iron is perfect to allow these electrons to lock their spins and neighboring atoms into parallel alignments.

46:42So you get all these electrons from all these iron atoms all pointing in the same direction. And those tiny little magnets add up to a big magnet that sticks to your refrigerator. So ICP was wrong. We know how magnets work. We got this. There's no magic, no mystery there. ICP is right about a lot of stuff, but yeah, not about magnets. No, no, no. Back that up. Back that up. All right. Let's move on. Magnets. All right. So what if you didn't have iron, right? Iron is great. We used iron in our discovery of magnets. Don is like, well, what if you didn't have it? Could you still discover magnetism?

47:15So iron is involved in essentially all naturally occurring, very powerful magnets. But it is possible to have magnetic materials without any iron. So for example, pure nickel is a ferromagnet. Ferromagnets are just like iron. They're easy to align up and they can make permanent magnets. Most of the magnets out there that are nickel magnets are mostly iron, but if you have a very pure deposit of nickel, that will be a ferromagnet. On Earth, these things are very, very rare because nickel mixes with stuff. It's hard to find pure nickel, but it is possible. So if you have aliens on a planet with lots of pure nickel deposits, they can use those the way we used lodestones.

47:59Did we talk about what ferro means? What is a ferromagnet as opposed to a magnet magnet? Yeah. So a ferromagnet is a material where all of these electrons can be lined up in the same direction and it can stay a magnet. So a ferromagnet, like if you put it near another strong magnet and all of its magnetic regions will get lined up and it'll stay a magnet. A paramagnetic material is one that's only a magnet when it's near another magnet. Like they don't stay locked in place. And so ferromagnets are what you want. Oh, good. Can we have more jargon, Daniel? Oh, we can. Yes, we could bring all sorts of biological jargon.

48:35Okay. All right. All right. All right. What else will make a ferromagnet? So you can use cobalt. Cobaltite is naturally ferromagnetic and it has no iron in it. There's cobalt and arsenic and sulfur in that. It's much less abundant than iron on earth, but it's possible. They're also like neodymium and gadolinium and dysprosium. These have a really strong magnetic behavior, but mostly with iron. So people are thinking like, what about rare earth materials? Those are magnetic. Mostly those are powerful magnets with iron, combined with iron. Without iron, they're mostly paramagnets. So they're not useful in the same way.

49:15So there are some alternative ways to discover magnets. But if you don't have any iron, you probably don't have any pure nickel or cobalt or either something went wrong or you're in a weird kind of solar system. And so let's imagine you have no magnets on your planet. You're an alien civilization. You just have no lodestones, no compasses. Could you still discover electromagnetism and send messages through space? That's what Don is asking. And the answer is yes, because magnetism is connected to electricity. And so if you figure out electricity, you can figure out magnetism without any naturally occurring magnets.

49:53Remember how we discovered the connection between electricity and magnetism is through electrical currents. Orsted had these currents. He had electricity, and he discovered, oh, that's magnetic. And it was helpful. He discovered it because there was a magnet nearby, but you don't need any magnets for that. You just have a couple of wires. You run currents with them. They will attract each other, or they will repel each other. They turn into magnets. And so you could start just by discovering static electricity, like we did through amber. You rub amber on cloth, it will accumulate a charge. You observe lightning, you do experiments.

50:30You can definitely discover electricity without any magnetic materials on the surface of your planet. You can develop natural batteries, all sorts of stuff. And then you start building currents and you see this deflection. you will discover, just like Orsted did, that electric currents produce these magnetic effects. You wouldn't call it magnetism. You would think it's part of electricity. And in that sense, it might even be an advantage. We have the disadvantage of thinking magnets and lightning are totally different things. The front and the back of the elephant are completely separate. But if you only start from the back of the elephant and then you work your way to the front, then you know already that they're connected.

51:08So if you discover magnetism as a part of electricity, that could be even an advantage. What is the link here with communication? The link is that radio waves, the way we like to send messages into space and from person to person and the way your cell phone works, these are electromagnetic radiation. So you're sending ripples in the electromagnetic field. An antenna has a bunch of electrons in it that you're wiggling. And so you're wiggling the electric field that it makes. And that's what electromagnetic radiation is, are wiggles in the electromagnetic field. So if you are going to send messages through space, you have to understand electromagnetism at some level in order to do that.

51:50And so that's why Don is interested in this question of like, could you discover electromagnetism without magnets? And I think the answer is yes, you could discover it purely through electricity. However, you don't have to, right? Like you could imagine communicating via electromagnetism without really understanding what it is because light is electromagnetism. And you could be sending messages from planet to planet or even star to star using essentially just optics. Like if you develop very powerful sources of light, even if you don't have a theory of electromagnetism, you could send those pulses through space, you know, essentially visible light signaling.

52:28Like Morse code or something? Like with a laser? Yeah, essentially with a laser. Yeah. Morse code or, you know, in the same way that you have signals encoded into radio waves, you can encode a signal into laser pulses through amplitude or through frequency modulation or whatever. So the bottom line is, I think, you don't need iron to discover magnetism, but it's an enormous advantage. It's possible to discover it otherwise if you have some natural sources of magnets. But the other route is just through pure electricity, which will eventually lead you to understanding magnets anyway, and then theory of electromagnetism, and then you'll be broadcasting I Love Lucy out into space.

53:08But you also don't have to. And you could imagine other ways to send messages. Maybe there'd be advanced particle physicists and they send us neutrino bursts or something. And most likely the history of science on that alien planet is even more alien than we could ever imagine. And Daniel's out there transmitting the message, we'll trade humanity for physics facts. And Kelly is out there sending them all sorts of biology jargon. Oh, come on. When we meet aliens, is that what you want to talk to them about? You're like, here's the name of that receptor, by the way. I want to say, what kind of parasites do you have?

53:44Here's a baggie for the stool sample. I think I saw that show. It's called Alien Earth. No. Okay. All right. Let's send this message over to Palm Springs and see if we have answered Don's question about aliens. Daniel and Kelly, thanks for the thorough and thoughtful discussion. It's interesting to learn about magnetic elements and minerals that are not iron. I've always wanted a magnet that attracted other metals, like gold or copper. Some being somewhere has likely already created a magnetic prism that refracts a magnetic field to attract or repel whatever elements they specify. I suppose that's similar to what the Large Hadron Collider at CERN does for fundamental particles.

54:29Just shrink CERN to fit in your hand, install the app, choose your element, and go asteroid mining. I do have a biology question for Kelly. If iron were very rare at Earth's surface, what color would our blood be? Thank you again. I really enjoy your podcast. Wow, that's a great follow-up question, Don. Okay, so our bodies use a protein called hemoglobin, and iron is used in hemoglobin, and that binds oxygen and brings it to different places in the body. Okay, so you're asking if we don't have iron, what would we do instead? I have no idea what evolution would come up with, but I need to have an answer.

55:13So the answer I'm going to give you is that mollusks, so like clams and stuff, they have hemocyanin, which is a copper binding protein. So instead of iron, it uses copper. So if we lived on a planet with no iron, maybe we would use this to bind oxygen instead. And so if you were using this, the protein turns blue when oxygen is bound to it. So I guess our blood would be blue, which would be kind of epic. Thanks for the question, Dawn. Thank you for sharing your curiosity with us. We love getting questions from y 'all and you can send us those questions through email at questions at Daniel and Kelly dot org.

55:58Or you can connect with us at our discord channel and you can get an invite to our discord channel by going to Daniel and Kelly dot org. We hope to hear from you. We answer every question. Daniel, usually within 30 seconds, me usually within about a week. But we answer them all in a subset of them end up on the show. That's right. And thank you for lending us your curiosity.

56:26Thanks, everybody, for listening. Please go and do us a favor and rate the show on whatever podcast app you're using. It really helps people find us. Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is edited by the amazing Matt Kesselman. He really is a wizard. You can also find us online on Blue Sky, Instagram, and XDNKUniverse. Come engage with us. You can email us at questions at danielandkelly.org. We really do want to hear from you. And you can find our website, www.danielandkelly.org, where you'll also find an invitation to join our Discord, where everybody comes and talks about the amazing universe.

57:05And we also have the most amazing moderators. This is an iHeart podcast. Thanks for joining us.

57:16Hey, everybody. I'm Tarika Foster-Brasby. What's up, y 'all? I'm your girl, Cheryl Swoops. When you tune in to a new episode of our podcast, Levels to This, you're definitely going to get some spicy WNBA analysis. But we're more than just hoops. And the real conversation is what we actually bring. It's been really, really cool seeing kind of these women just really step into their power off the court and understand that they aren't basketball, right? And they're not asking for permission. Listen to Levels to This with Cheryl Sfoops and Tarika Foster-Brasby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

57:58When Democrats are messing up, I say it. When Republicans are messing up, I say it. I'm Essie Kupp, a journalist and political commentator. And on my podcast, Off the Cup, I help you make sense of the often nonsensical news. I do this on cable news, too, but on my podcast, I can really let loose and be my honest, unfiltered self. I just want to talk about something that happened this week because it's so bonkers. So stupid. Such incredibly bad politics. We have to talk about it. Come for the hot takes. Stay for the sanity. Listen to Off the Cup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

58:35I'm Munga Shatikular, and I'm back with a new season of my podcast, Skyline Drive. This time I talk to scientists, biopunks, curmudgeons, blues owners, super seniors, and Goa's top cryotherapy lab to try to understand this obsession with living forever and what it means for all of us. And I get into a bit of trouble along the way. I'd say probably start bone smashing. That doesn't work. Make it look more defined. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, How to Live Forever on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We've all been there. We've had seasons that have shaken everything.

59:12The question is, what remains when the shaking stops? Hi, I'm Gary Valenciano, and on my podcast, Unshaken with Gary V., I sit down with amazing personalities and we talk about the seasons that nearly broke them, the lows that carried them to their highs. Listen to Unshaken with Gary Vee on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.