Listener Questions #50

25:25A Do More subscription brings you concerts and comedy, sports and museums. For seven scrawny bucks a month, you get at least one pair of tickets to something great. Discover new bands, laugh, learn, do more. And right now, Do More makes interesting and adventurous easy, because your first month's free at domorestuff.com slash free. What if I told you that most of history's underwear wasn't remotely close to the underwear you're wearing right now. Hi, I'm Greg Jenner, host of the You're Dead to Me podcast, and we're back with a brand new season. And if you're a fan of fashion trends of the past, you'll love our newest episode on the history of underwear.

26:02We explore how our underwear has changed throughout history and whether TV depictions of Regency-era ladies in their lacy underwear are truly accurate. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

26:28Okay, we're back and we're answering amazing questions from listeners that give us a chance to go off and read about things we've also always been curious about, but never had an excuse to dig into. And so today we're literally going to drill in to a listener question. Or things that we did not know that we would be interested in because it hadn't occurred to us before. So many reasons to thank the listeners for sharing their curiosity with us. And let's go ahead and do a question for Daniel from Paul from Lemoore, California. Hello, Daniel and Kelly. I'm Paul from Lamor, California. My question is, when humans finally land on icy moons like Enceladus or Europa, would something similar to a fuel rod for a nuclear reactor be used to melt through the icy crust instead of using a drill?

27:16I appreciate you taking the time to listen to my question. Thank you. Do you think Lamor is like French, like l 'amour? L 'amour? I don't know. Yes, I imagine it is a very romantic place to live. Let's hope so. But today we're not speculating about the romantic lives of Californians. We are taking our brains out into the solar system to imagine where aliens might be living and where they might be having their own kind of romance right in our backyard. Daniel, I want to know what's happening on Enceladus so bad. Like, I really want video from underneath the oceans in Enceladus. Right. Let's spend a minute to remind people why we might go to the icy moons of Jupiter and Saturn.

28:02And the reason is that they're an excellent, excellent candidate for life, for alien life, right here in our solar system. You might be thinking, aliens, if they're out there, are way, way out there. We'll never find them because you have to travel to a distant star. But the truth is we haven't finished looking in our own backyard. Yes, we've driven rovers around Mars, and we think Venus is probably uninhabitable. But if you look a little bit further out, there are places where life can start that are very different from the brackish waters of primordial Earth. And these are under miles of ice on these frozen moons.

28:40Can you imagine there being, like, I don't know, fishy-type things swimming around under there? Like, how cool would it be to see that? Yes. Oh, yeah, of course you have. And we can go there. And the reason this is so exciting is that under that ice is not just like some frozen rocky core, but oceans. We think miles and miles of water. And that's because these things are close to giant planets, so Jupiter and Saturn, and they're squeezed by the tidal forces of those planets. Remember, tidal force comes from gravity, but gravity doesn't just pull on the whole planet or the whole moon. It pulls on the closer bit harder because it's closer and the far away bit weaker because it's far away.

29:20And so it tends to make something like into a football. The way that like the moon makes the oceans on the Earth kind of into a football shape. It piles them up near the moon and on the opposite side, it makes the oceans thinner on the edges. And then as the moon moves around the Earth, the tides follow. In the same way as these giant moons around Jupiter and Saturn move, they get squeezed by Jupiter and Saturn's intense gravity, and that imparts a lot of heat. And so these oceans can stay unfrozen. They can stay liquid under this thick crust, which means that, you know, it's a great place for life to perhaps begin.

29:56Yes, but unfortunately for us, it's not an easy place to get to. Yeah. Because you have to get through, as you said, kilometers of ice. After you go through billions and billions of kilometers to get there, right? Right, right. Yes. Yeah. So what do we have to overcome to get ourselves to that ocean? Yeah. So, I mean, just to get there requires getting to Jupiter or Saturn, which is not easy. And we recently had a whole episode about chemical rockets, et cetera, et cetera. First, you've got to convince your government to build this thing. And the whole thing is going to cost hundreds of millions.

30:29And then you've got to get it there. But even once you get there, let's just skip over all the political issues and the launch issues and the space travel issues. Say you are lucky enough to land on Europa. Now you're sitting on kilometers of ice and the amazing alien payload is on the other side of that ice. So you got to drill. And drilling is hard. Even here on Earth, drilling is hard. You know, if you've like tried to drill into your wall, you know, or if you work like on an oil rig or whatever, it's dangerous. Mechanical drilling is really hard. You have to have a drill bit. Drill bits can break.

31:06You have to have an engine. But the engine can choke if you hit something hard. And so you need transmissions. And basically, no drill works without some expert babysitting it and constantly repairing it. But we're not sending people to Europa or Enceladus. Not yet, at least. So we need some sort of autonomous drill. And that's why the fact that this is ice and not rock is actually a big advantage. Because you can melt it. You can melt it, exactly. So instead of like mechanically trying to cut through it, you just melt it and then it becomes liquid and you can slide through it. And you might think that sounds crazy and extra hard.

31:43And shouldn't we figure out how to do that first here on earth? And the answer is yes. And we've done it. We have done this in the ice of Antarctica. We have this amazing experiment called Ice Cube. that's a great name for a project did did ice oh no it's iced tea i'm getting my i'm not very cool no ice cube is a rapper yes oh wait there's iced tea and ice cube there's ice tea and there's ice cube absolutely nice is there ice pops you know there's some rule of the internet where like whatever you can imagine there's probably a rapper with that name okay that's not how i remember the rule going, but - I adapted it for this family-friendly conversation.

32:28But IceCube is an experiment that instruments a cubic kilometer of ice in Antarctica. Wow. It's to look for cosmic ray neutrinos and muons and all sorts of stuff where you have super fast particles going through the ice faster than light can go through the ice and making this shrink off radiation, this blue cone. And to capture it, you need cameras in the ice. So you've got to drill down through a kilometer and leave these cameras in the ice. So you got to drill through a lot of ice in tough conditions, right? And so they've done this and they didn't use a big mechanical drill. They used high pressure, hot water.

33:05Basically they just melt the ice. And then they have this string of cameras. It's a kilometer long. It's basically like a long tether and it's got these glass spheres on it. Inside the spheres is all the delicate at particle physics detectors and experimental devices and electronics and stuff. And so they melt it and then they drop this tether down and then they just let it refreeze. Wow. So that you have this equipment down through the ice and they've instrumented a cubic kilometer. It's amazing. It's such a huge experiment. I love it. It's like science fiction, but it's real. And the hole there goes through two and a half kilometers of ice and it's about 60 centimeters wide.

33:42Wow. And so So are our plans on Enceladus, do they involve hot water? Because Paul wanted to know if we were going to use like radioactive materials. The Antarctica solution seems like it would be difficult to port over to Enceladus. Yes, exactly. I mean, it teaches us that this is possible, that you can do it as long as you have a heat source. And the crucial thing to understand is that you're just letting it refreeze. You're not trying to keep the whole column liquid, right? Okay. Just the part that you're digging out as things slide down. And that's going to turn out to be crucial. And so in the case of drilling through one of these moons, you're not going to have some easy source of hot water.

34:19You need to bring some sort of power with you. And so, of course, the best option is some kind of nuclear power because that's the densest sort of fuel. And there are a few different options here. One is you can have just like direct nuclear heating. Like if you have some sort of isotope like plutonium-238, it just decays and it gives off particles at like 10 ,000 miles per second. And so if you surround that with some sort of liquid, it will get heated up. And that's like directly nuclear decay turning into heat. No power generation, no fission, just like directly radioisotopic decay into heat.

34:59And that's pretty cool because you don't need complicated fission equipment. You don't need to send a nuclear reactor. You don't need to generate electricity, which is very inefficient. It's very nice and it generates heat. And so that's like a really strong option, just like directly produce heat. So I've got two questions. So one, you said something about we're not going to have an easy source of hot water on Enceladus, but we didn't have an easy source of hot water probably in Antarctica. And so how did they make the hot water? Did they just bring like a generator fueled with gasoline to heat it up?

35:30And yeah, so the point there is, of course, you don't like have geysers. It's not like Iceland or something where you have an easy source of hot water that way, but you are connected to some kind of existing infrastructure, right? There is power. You can get fuel delivered. It's not that far away. As you guys point out in your book, Antarctica is actually a lot easier than space. Even though it's uncomfortable and unpleasant and I would never want to go there, it's a lot easier to live there than it is to go to space. In the case of IceCube, they use fuel power generators to run heaters and melt the snow and spew it out in high-pressure streams.

36:04And that's not an option. You can't send diesel fuel to the moons of Jupiter. But you can send a radioisotopic heat source. And so then my other question is, so for the Antarctica experiment, they had to heat quickly, all the way through, and then put their equipment and then let it freeze. Yes. Does a radio isotopic heat source, is that going to heat all the way through fast enough so that you can put your equipment in there? Like, does it give out that kind of heat? No, but it doesn't have to. Okay. And so it just needs to melt the part that's in front of it, right? And so it can refreeze behind it as it goes.

36:41So it needs to like unspool a tether. So it needs to bring with it like three kilometers of line and then unspool it as it goes and let it refreeze behind it. And so it only needs to be able to melt the bit that's right in front of it. So it like melts a bit of ice, it moves into that liquid and the liquid it was just in refreezes behind it. So like, there's no going back. It's pretty claustrophobic experience. But we're such a clever species, that's awesome. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. The issue with radioisotopic decay is that it's efficient because it turns a lot of the original energy into heat, but you also need power for other things, right?

37:17You don't just need heat. You are a little device. You need electronics. You need electricity. And so it's tempting to also include something which will produce electricity. And you don't even have to go all the way to fission reactors for that. You can just use an RTG, which is a radioisotope thermoelectric generator. So again, not yet all the way to fission reactors. You use thermocouples. So these have no moving parts. It's just essentially solid state. And it turns radiation directly into electricity, but it's very inefficient. It turns like 6 % of the heat into electricity. But if you need some electricity, then that's a nice addition.

37:53So you might have both a radioisotopic heater and you might turn some of it into electricity to run your system. Or if you want to go whole hog, just build a full-on fission reactor. These days, the fission industry is really focusing on miniaturization, building small modular reactors. And so the idea is to bring a small one that can actually generate enough electricity that you could both power a heater and you could power the device itself. But it's like a lot more mechanical complexity and weight. And you can't repair it if it's not working. Well, and do we have actual plans on the books to go do this or is this all hypothetical?

38:34I wish that we had plans on the books. We do have some plans to visit these planets. There's the Europa Clipper, which is en route. It's heading there right now. It's going to arrive in 2030. Yay. But it's just going to do flybys. People are curious about this moon. Let's take more pictures. Then there's the JUICE, which stands for Jupiter Icy Moons Explorer, which is going to go into orbit around Ganymede in 2031. Also very, very cool. But again, these are just orbiters. They're going to take pictures. They're going to help us understand the surface. We want to get on the surface and dig down.

39:09We want to meet those alien octopi, right? We want to see what alien sprints are all about. Drill, baby, drill. And so now we're into the regime of proposed experiments. There's the Europa Lander, which is supposed to land on the surface and scoop up some of it and study it. Because we've never even been there. Who knows what it's made out of? Even more exciting is the Insulatus Orba Lander, which is not going to land. It's going to sample the geysers because Insulatus has a lot of activity. It sprays its innards out into space. So you might capture like an alien microbe or something just by flying by and flying through one of those plumes and gathering it and then analyzing it on board.

39:50Very cool. Not yet approved. So neither of these two, the lander or the Orbalander, are approved. There are plans for something called Prime, which is a lander with a driller. And also, as it drills, it brings a miniature submarine with it. What? So that it drills down through this hole. It has a tether to go back up to the surface so you can send data, right? Nice. And then when it gets through the ice, it releases into the water a submarine to go off and explore, which then communicates back with the lander up the tether and sends us the glorious information about everything it's discovered.

40:26I need that to get approved. I know. Write your congressperson or your member of European Parliament or whatever, because we can do this, people. We have the money. We have the technology. We know how to do it. We're just choosing not to know these things about the universe because we want to build more aircraft carriers or whatever. So this experiment is called Prime. It's not yet approved, which means we haven't started building it. We haven't. It's not on its way, which means the earliest this could happen is like, you know, unfortunately, 15 years away. By which point we'll all be 100. That's right.

41:01That's right. That's right. Well, let's go ahead and send this answer to Paul and see if we have answered his question. I hope he lamors it. Oh, but a bunch. Hi, Daniel. Hi, Kelly. Daniel, thank you for explaining a few different ways of melting through ice to explore the subterranean oceans of the icy moons of our solar system. I'm looking forward to reading about the Europa Clipper mission in the next few years. But I agree with Kelly and I'm wanting to see some video footage of underneath the ice. I like to imagine bioluminescent alien creatures swimming around in the black background of the dark sunless ocean.

41:37Thank you again. I appreciate both of you for taking the time to answer my question and sharing your knowledge with all of us listening to your podcast.

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43:47And right now, Do More makes interesting and adventurous easy because your first month's free at DoMoreStuff.com. What if I told you that most of history's underwear wasn't remotely close to the underwear you're wearing right now? Hi, I'm Greg Jenner, host of the You're Dead to Me podcast, and we're back with a brand new season. And if you're a fan of fashion trends of the past, you'll love our newest episode on the history of underwear. We explore how our underwear has changed throughout history, and whether TV depictions of Regency-era ladies in their lacy underwear are truly accurate. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

44:37All right, we're back and we're answering questions from listeners. And the one next is super fascinating. He asks a really penetrating question, don't you think? Oh my God. Right, and this is where we remind people that we are about to talk about sex. So, yes, Josh had a very penetrating question. Let's go ahead and hear what Josh had to say. Hi, Daniel and Kelly. I was thinking about the way that humans, and I guess probably a lot of other species, have sperm cells and egg cells, and the fact that some of us have a penis and others a vagina. I'm also familiar with some extreme examples of this, like the pig's corkscrew penis and the arms race of convolution in duck sexual organs.

45:14But this made me think, how did we get here? What are the evolutionary stages to get to each reproductive strategy? What are the different ways to do sexual reproduction and what evolutionary drives mean some creatures, such as plants, just sort of spray their sex cells into space and hope, while others have these interlocking parts and specialized cells? So I followed up with Josh to make sure I understood the question. And pretty much the question is, where did wieners come from? Which is a great question. Especially to somebody named Wiener Smith. That's right. I am clearly the right person to send this question to.

45:51And so I will note that my research for this question involved reading a book called Fallacy and autocorrect turned the spelling correct, but the book is P-H-A-L-L-A-C-Y or something like that. Anyway. You know, I've been to the Fallis Museum in Iceland. It's quite impressive. I really want to go there to see. They've got the penis bone from a whale there, amongst other amazing penis-related memorabilia. And I would like to see all of them. There are so many things to mention from that, including, for example, they have molds of the penises of Iceland's most successful Olympic athletes ever. Wow.

46:32Which is, I think, the Icelandic handball team who got the bronze medal or something. And then they have a picture of the whole team. And then they have molds of all the penises arranged in the same order as the team. So you can be like, oh, interesting. I feel like that's totally unrelated to handball. But congratulations to those people. I mean, there's an obvious handball joke to make there. But I think the most interesting sociological part of that museum is the history of it. It started in some guy's garage and then apparently took over his house. And his wife was like, out. I cannot have this in my house.

47:04And so he had to move it into a museum. Wait, out to him and the specimens or just the specimens? Didn't say at least the specimens are the minimum. But back to the biology. Tell us, Kelly, how long have we had penises on Earth? When was the first penis? I did not get when was the first penis because actually what is a penis is a complicated question. And so instead of talking about penises in particular, we're going to talk about intermittent organs. And so the point here is there's a couple different ways of mixing sperm and eggs. A lot of fish do what's called external fertilization, where a female will essentially like excrete some eggs into the environment and a male will plop some sperm on top of that.

47:46And that's how everything gets fertilized. When you do that, those fertilized eggs now need to be guarded in a lot of cases because they're like delicious snacks for a lot of other organisms. So it's not very safe for the offspring to do things that way unless you've got someone who's willing to stay there and watch them. Another problem is when you're doing external fertilization, when the male releases his sperm onto the eggs, often other males called sneaker males or satellite males will like come by and deposit their sperm as well. Sort of unwanted, but they snuck in there and they got it.

48:18So this is another problem with external fertilization. A third problem with external fertilization is that it works really well in wet or moist environments. but if you have eggs and sperm meeting together in an open area like on land they dry out really quick and so the way that amniotes have solved this problem is that fertilization happens inside of the female and then we can either like slap a you know a calcium shell on there for the birds and then send it out into the environment and it's fine or you know in mammals we've got a placenta and everything sort of happens inside the mom until the baby's ready to go.

48:55So we have found solutions for that environmental problem by having a lot of the stuff happen inside of mom, and that's what we call internal fertilization. There's a couple different ways to do internal fertilization that don't involve anything that's wiener-like. One of them is what's called a cloacal kiss, which is not as romantic as you might imagine. So some birds have openings called cloaca, which I think is the Latin word for sewer, because not only do like sperm and eggs come out through here, but also so does feces and urine and all of the waste. It's like an all purpose hole for birds.

49:36And when they want to reproduce, they will stick the cloacas together and the male will, you know, excrete some sperm and then just kind of hope that it ends up where it needs to go up inside of the female. But you can imagine that having an appendage that allows you to place the sperm in a little bit more specific way could be helpful for increasing the probability that your sperm actually fertilize an egg. Aim it a little bit. Aim it a little bit. Right. And so throughout the animal kingdom, there are lots of different ways that animals accomplish this. Anybody who's like cleaned a bathroom that men use know that having a penis does not mean you can aim.

50:15No, no. I mean, if you're paying attention, you can aim. My first job was I was a bagger at Kroger's and my job also was often to clean the restrooms. And there is just there is feces in places that you just I can't even fathom how they got there. Our species is disgusting. And, you know, I always I didn't like cleaning the ladies room, but I really didn't like cleaning the men's room. You guys are gross. I don't know what's happening in there. It was like a different species. Criticism accepted. I have no defense. Yeah, absolutely. Totally agree. Dudes are gross. Yeah, super gross. All right.

50:53And so millipedes, for example, have what are called gonopods, which are like wiener feet. And so their eighth pair of legs actually is able to take sperm and insert it into the female. Whoa. And so that's not like technically a penis, but I don't know, maybe it is. There's actually some debate about, you know, how do you define the term penis? but the broader term is intermittent organ. So are there conferences where people like have shouting matches about this? I mean, probably. I don't know. We get upset about all kinds of stuff. Whatever it is, there's some academic conference where they argue about it.

51:26That's the new internet rule. Absolutely. Yes. Then there's other ways of getting the stuff up there. So for example, males. Such a delicate way to put it, Kelly. Thank you. I mean, I went to school for animal behavior. We just we don't take this stuff very I mean, we take it seriously, but we don't like have any reverence for the topic. But so you can make things called spermatophores, which are packets of sperm plus other stuff that can be like placed in the environment temporarily. And then the female will in some cases take it up by like, I don't know, squatting over it and then sort of pulling it up into her body.

52:02Or males have like organs that help them sort of insert it into her body. And so that's another way of like getting sperm inside of a female. One of the benefits for the female of internal fertilization, though, is that females have evolved very complicated ways to either store sperm for when they need it. If they found like a really great guy, but they're not really ready to have babies yet, they can hold on to that stuff for when the moment feels right. Yeah. Wow. For how long? It depends on the species, but definitely days for some species. I think there were some where it was weeks or months.

52:35Amazing. It can be a really long time. And then there's also some that have like extra compartments where they can choose, like they can mate with multiple males and afterwards they can pick their favorite and use the sperm from that one and not use the sperm from the others. Wow. Dating is so complicated. And in other species, it's even more complicated. Although, you know, you don't really know if you were rejected in that case. Right. And so that's nice, I guess. So the lady can swipe right or left or whatever it is, even after you're done. That's right. That's right. Life is good. And I should note that in this book Fallacy, Emily Wilmingham makes the point that we've studied penises a lot.

53:15Vaginas are almost certainly equally interesting, but have been massively understudied relative to penises. So I wanted to get a plug in for vaginas while we were here and the fascinating things that we learned about animal behavior when we study female vaginas. If you are a young scientist trying to figure out where in this wide world you want to devote your energy, Kelly suggests the vagina. I think we have loads left to learn about vaginas. Cornucopia of data left to collect there. So the question is, like, why do we have internal fertilization? And why, in particular, do we have devices that are used to insert sperm into the female?

53:58One of the hypotheses is this idea of like a lock and key. So if you're trying to figure out if you have picked a member of your own species to mate with, then seeing if a penis fits in a vagina is one way to do that, to make sure that you're mating with the right species. I should say the evidence for this hypothesis is kind of mixed. You see plenty of closely related species mating with one another anyway. It doesn't seem like this lock and key is very specific, but there's some idea that this is a first pass at trying to make sure that you're mating with a member of the right species. Another benefit of internal fertilization, which we've talked about, is that now you've got it in an environment that is sort of moist, so the sperm and the eggs aren't going to dry out.

54:40But in particular, if you have a penis, then you can increase the probability that you actually get the sperm into the female at the right spot relative to something like a cloacal kiss, which, you know, does work a lot of the time. But it might be nice to have a little bit of extra confidence that it's getting to where it needs to go. Another nice thing about internal fertilization is that the eggs tend to be bigger. And especially if the females are holding on to the offspring inside of them until the offspring are bigger than when you finally release them into the environment, they have a better chance of survival.

55:09So there's lots of benefits to internal fertilization. Some of them are even more beneficial when you have a device that can insert right up into the vagina. But plenty of organisms make do without it. They just kind of come up with some clever ways of doing it. So do you feel like that answered the question? Do you understand why penises exist to some extent? Yeah, I do. I think it gives me an idea for why there are penises. And also, though, I don't think you talked about this, helps me understand why there's like a plethora of kinds. You know, we're exploring evolutionarily, like what things might work.

55:46And I know they're like long ones and spiral ones and, you know, multi-tipped ones or whatever. Ones with horns. Lizards and snakes have hemipenes. They have two penises that they can alternate between which one they use. Amazing. Yes, exactly. Evolution is the greatest experimenter. That's right. Yeah, so intermittent organs have popped up, if you will, multiple times throughout evolution. And yeah, they've got lots of different shapes, lots of different forms. And again, because this is ecology, the answer is it depends. So we were talking about how if you're in an aquatic environment, it's fine to release sperm and eggs out into the environment because it's wet there.

56:21But there's plenty of fish species that have organs that allow males to place sperm inside of a female. And we think that that, you know, increases the probability of fertilization, increases certainty that you're the only one, at least in that moment, who is attempting to fertilize the eggs. And so, you know, even in aquatic environments, you find organisms that have intermittent organs because nature is complicated. Nature is complicated. All right, let's send this answer back to Josh and see if your answers have gotten up in there to the place where his questions were waiting. Josh, let us know if you're okay with that.

57:00Hello again. Thank you so much for sharing the ins and outs of this fascinating topic. The world of reproductive organs is even more varied than I realized, and I'll definitely be checking that book out. All right. Thank you, everybody, for your amazing questions. I know I had a ton of fun today, probably more fun than should be legal. Yeah, thanks for sharing your time and your curiosity with us. And if you have a question about how the universe works, it's Sprint too late to send it to us. Oh, no!

57:30And sorry, remember, it's Sprint too late to send it to Daniel. Kelly's on hiatus for a little while, but looking forward to catching up so I can get new questions from you all soon. Stay tuned, everyone.

57:47Thanks, everybody, for listening. Please go and do us a favor and rate the show on whatever podcast app you're using. It really helps people find us. Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is edited by the amazing Matt Kesselman. He really is a wizard. You can also find us online on Blue Sky, Instagram, and XDNKUniverse. Come engage with us. You can email us at questions at danielandkelly.org. We really do want to hear from you. And you can find our website, www.danielandkelly.org, where you'll also find an invitation to join our Discord, where everybody comes and talks about the amazing universe.

58:27And we also have the most amazing moderators. This is an iHeart Podcast. Thanks for joining us.

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