The Mysteries of Magnetism

23:24All right, magnet I've got on my fridge. It has electrons spinning up on one side, electrons spinning down on another side. Over time, would I expect those to like decay where some of the ones that are going up start going down or they just keep spinning in the direction they're spinning in unless you do something to force them otherwise? Yeah, this is a great question. People often ask this because they imagine like, why do magnets not lose their energy? Yeah. But yeah, they just point in the same direction unless something comes along and flips them. And so to demagnetize a magnet, you would have to flip some of the electrons or some of the particles one way and not the other ones, which would be pretty tricky.

24:04And they can just sit there and keep spinning in the same direction without requiring any energy. The same way that a rock can sit on the top of a hill until somebody comes along and pushes. It takes energy to move the rock. So we can get more into that in a minute. But yeah, they will keep spinning in the same direction unless you come along and scramble them. All right. well let's take a break and get more into that.

24:34This is Charity Lawson from Bachelor Happy Hour. Charity I was thinking about this the other day what's something that you'll always say yes to? That's easy seeing my friends last minute girls trip basically making memories you'll talk about for years. Same and somehow every one of these memories comes with something to plan. That's so true. That's why Klarna stands out. It's about smarter tools that help you manage your money without taking away from the moments that matter. Exactly. With flexible ways to pay, cash back that builds automatically, and everything in one place, Klarna helps you feel more confident making everyday money decisions.

25:09Because when you have the right tools, everything feels more manageable. Download the Klarna app today or visit Klarna.com to learn more. California resident loans made or arranged pursuant to California Finance Law License, NMLS number 1353190. Klarna Balance account required to be eligible for cashback points. Limitations, terms, and conditions apply. Aging is real, and so are the benefits of new Vital Proteins Collagen Sparkling Water, because around the age of 30, your body needs backup to keep your collagen up. So get your daily glow up now in three fresh flavors, strawberry blossom, lemon lime, and blood orange.

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27:38Alright, so my brain is stuck on the Brave Little Toaster now and that electromagnet that was picking cars up and flinging them around and throwing them down. How do electromagnets work? So electromagnets are like macroscopic versions, right? A minute ago, we were talking about microscopic electrons. We say they have charge and spin, and therefore they generate a magnetic field. Here we just take a bunch of electrons. We say whiz them around in a circle. That's charges in motion. And so that generates a magnetic field. And, you know, that just says current. So if you want a straight-up magnetic field, for example, you make a loop of wire.

28:12You like wrap wire around a cylinder. And then as the electrons go through that wire, they generate a magnetic field in a loop around the wire. And then inside that cylinder, they all add up in the same direction to make a big magnetic field. So this is what an electromagnet is. It requires running a current. You have to run energy through it. So you run out of energy, boom, your magnet turns off. This is, for example, how an electric motor works. It has an oscillating electromagnet. You turn the magnet on in one direction so it pulls on something. Then you turn it on the other direction so it pushes and oscillates very rapidly to spin that rotor.

28:50Every electric motor uses electromagnets. What kind of things in our lives use electric motors? EVs. Oh. What about my hybrid? Does my hybrid use an electric motor? Your hybrid definitely has an electric motor. And like every robot you've ever seen and anything that goes like, all that stuff. It uses little electric motors. Electric motors are everywhere and they're wonderful. And you can combine these two things. You can take an electric motor and instead of just having like a plastic cylinder or whatever, you can use a ferromagnetic cylinder. So now your electromagnetic motor is aligning the spinning electrons of the ferromagnet.

29:28So it all adds up and you get like a really powerful magnet. So people have been doing experiments to try to like make the most powerful electromagnet possible to see like how much magnetism can we have in a little bit of space so why would having a permanent magnet and then running electricity through that make it more intense like you know you've already got the electrons doing their thing and running current why does that supercharge the magnetism magnet or magic there's no magic here it's just that if you have the electromagnet it generates a magnetic field through its core. That's one magnet.

30:05If you add a chunk of iron, then your electromagnet will align, will magnetize your iron for you. So now you have a permanent magnet adding to your electromagnet. So it just adds up. So you use the electromagnet to magnetize your chunk of iron to give you a permanent magnet. And now your permanent magnet just sits there adding to your electromagnet, if that's what you want, right? If you want an oscillating magnetic field, then that's not what you want because you can't turn off the permanent magnet or oscillate it very quickly. But if your goal is to like be a magnet nerd and make the most powerful magnet ever made on earth, then that's what you want.

30:40And that's what people are doing. And why would you want to make the most powerful magnet ever made on earth? Is there like a thing you can do once you have that? Or is it just awesome? You get to be the magnet king or queen. I mean, come on, Kelly. Queen of the megalos. I just think it's cool. You know, probably there will be some application someday, and I hope it's not weapons. But, you know, a lot of us who got into physics just do things because, like, let's see if we can and what happens. And maybe our theory breaks down. And, you know, these things are fascinating. Yeah, I'm fascinated.

31:12So what is the biggest magnet? Who is the current monarch of the megalos? Yeah. So one of the first guys to get into this was an American physicist named Francis Bitter. Does he wear a lot of makeup?

31:30No, and he's not a very bitter guy. Though the magnets that he inspired and he designed are called the bitter magnets. But they don't taste bitter. Nobody's grumpy about them. They're just named after Francis Bitter. Okay. So he and his design of magnets set a record of 41.4 Tesla. which is a huge amount of magnetism, right? Remember the strongest permanent magnet ever was like one and a half Tesla. So already blowing out of the water, all permanent magnets. The limit there is that there's so much energy in this magnet that basically it'll overheat. There's not a physical limit. Like it's not that you can't have more magnetism or density or something we think it's just that it melts the whole apparatus because there's so much energy in it.

32:15And that's because you can't have current without loss and the resistance of your wire is going to heat up everything and you're just going to melt your whole apparatus. So people said, well, let's try to use superconductors, right? Superconductors are famous for having low resistance. So higher current, so bigger magnet, yay. And that's very cool. And we use superconducting magnets in, for example, the Large Hadron Collider. Say you wanted really powerful magnets because you wanted to bend the path of super high energy particles so you could collide them together and reveal the secrets of the universe.

32:47See, there you go. There's an application for very powerful magnets. Yay. Why didn't you come up with that sooner, Daniel? This is what you do, man. I wanted to lead into it a little bit more. Oh, suspense. You're good at this. Yes, yes. And that sounds awesome. But the problem is that superconductivity is not something we understand super well. And at some point, having a lot of magnetic field interferes with the superconductivity. And the superconductivity comes from like electrons behaving weird. They pair up with each other and flow differently, et cetera, et cetera. It's not something we super understand, but we do know that magnetism interferes with it.

33:24And so there's a limit there. And they've only gotten to like 32 Tesla at the National Magnetic Field Lab in the US. So that's what, 10 Tesla less than what Bitter was doing? Is that right? No. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Yeah. So then somebody said, well, let's combine all the best ideas out there, right? Oh. Yeah, let's have a bitter magnet with superconductors. And they were able to get up to 45 Tesla. This is the Florida State Magnet Lab. And so that's the current record for a magnet that lasts more than a few microseconds. A magnet's like stable, and you could use it to do something, for example.

33:58But there are other folks out there that are like, so what if your magnet melts? Or so what if the whole apparatus blows up? You still got a powerful magnet. So there are folks working on something called explosive magnets that says like, Let's just try to get the most powerful magnetic field ever. We don't care if the whole building collapses. Afterwards, we still get the record. Okay. I mean, I can get behind that attitude, but can I take one quick step back? So I thought that the, okay, so when we talked about using a superconducting wire, I thought you were taking the bitter magnet plan, but using a superconducting wire instead.

34:33So what does it mean to say you're doing a hybrid of the bitter and the superconducting idea? The answer is a little bit technical. The way a bitter magnet works is it requires these circular plates with insulating spacers in them, and it's not very conducive to the superconducting setup. So people started from a different approach using superconductors. And then later, they're like, made some efforts to try to bring these two designs together. So sort of a compromised design, but has to do with the detailed geometry of bitter magnets. Awesome. Okay, thanks. Now let's blow some stuff up. Yeah.

35:05So not only are these folks willing to let their magnet get blown up, but they're going to literally use explosives to generate the high magnetic field. They use explosives to compress the whole apparatus so you get a higher density magnet as the explosion is happening. And the record here is 2800 Tesla. So we're almost 100 times what the bitter superconductor magnet at the FSU Magnet Lab can do, but only for a few microseconds. Still pretty awesome. Yeah, I can't imagine you're going to get a government to fund an LHC that runs on explosive magnets, you know? Oh, that would be cool, though. Yeah, every decade you get one really big batch of data and then you got to start over again.

35:46But before you feel too proud of humanity's achievements, let's put it in like astronomical context, right? 2 ,800 Tesla is a lot bigger than the Earth's magnetic field, which is like 30 to 60 micro Tesla. But a neutron star is already at a million Tesla. Oh, wow. So we're talking a thousand times our explosive magnets. And a magnetar, a super magnetized version of a neutron star that's a pulsar and spinning and crazy, has 10 to the 11 Tesla. So like blowing us out of the water by a factor of 10 to the 8. So yeah, nature can do what humanity can't still. All right. Well, so I've decided instead of the Magalos, we're going to be the magnetars because that sounds way cooler.

36:30I'm sorry to the juggalos out there, but the magnetars are going to take over the world. All right. And so that's the basics of how magnets work. We got permanent magnets. We got electromagnets. We got magnetism generated by charges in motion. One of the other questions that the listeners asked was, why are there no monopoles? Why do we only generate magnetic fields from dipoles? And we talked about this a little bit, but I want to dig a little bit deeper into it because I want to explain why physics wants monopoles to exist. All right, let's see how many different ways there are to say, we don't know.

37:11I mean, if you just looked at the equations, if you write down Maxwell's equations, you see they describe how electric fields are generated from sources, you know, positive and negative charges, how magnetic fields are generated from those sources in motion, how you can even get current from magnets, all sorts of back and forth. It's beautiful. The symmetry is gorgeous, but there's this one flaw in it. There's one glaring omission, this lack of symmetry, which is that there are no sources of magnetic fields. And so in the equations, we just say zero, right? The total sources of magnetic fields are zero.

37:45It would be so much nicer if we could replace that zero with something that paralleled what happens in electricity where you have monopoles, you have sources of fields. And so that awkwardness makes physicists want to be like, well, what if there are monopoles out there? We just haven't found them yet. Because that would make the equations more beautiful. And let me remind you that beauty and symmetry in physics has led us to real discoveries before. Even in this particular aspect, when Maxwell was putting his equations together, he noticed there was a term that was asymmetric. He was like, hmm, it would be more beautiful if this other term existed.

38:21And then And he went out there and actually found the effect. He's like, oh, this is a real thing in the universe. Just nobody has isolated it and looked for it before. So symmetry does lead to discoveries. Like mathematical insight really does reveal physical nature of the universe, which is like cool and philosophical and tells you like, wow, maybe the universe really is mathematical. And so it inspires us. It says, hmm, wouldn't it be cool if there was a full symmetry, if these equations really were exactly the same for electricity and magnetism? Because remember, electricity and magnetism are not separate things.

38:53They're two sides of the same coin. It's not even always possible to draw a dotted line and say, this is magnetism and this is electricity. Like, let's say, for example, I'm holding an electron. I see an electric field, right? I don't see any magnetic field because I'm just holding it. It's not moving. But what if Kelly drives by, you know, at 50 miles an hour? She looks at my electron. She's like, no, that electron is moving because according to you, it's moving at 50 miles an hour. So do you see a magnetic field? Answer is yes. So you see a magnetic field and I don't because really it's just electromagnetism, right?

39:30This dotted line we draw between them is an artifact of humans being like, oh, electricity is lightning. Magnets are weird rocks. These are separate things. And later we realized they're actually just two sides of the same coin. So it would be beautiful if we could fully unify these things if we saw monopoles. Every time I talk about beauty and symmetry in physics, I find myself really wanting a framework for when we should be able to say, oh, it would be beautiful if there were this other thing to complete the symmetry. And then whenever we don't see a symmetry, is that because we're missing something?

40:03Or is it just like, well, it just isn't symmetrical? When should you see symmetry and when should you not? We don't know. And it sounds arbitrary and biased. And the only real explanation, if you want to be honest, is so far this works. Like looking for symmetry and trusting our gut about like what is beautiful and elegant has led us to discoveries. That doesn't mean it always will. The universe could be a mess. You know, it could be ugly deep down. And this is something you and I have talked about. Like, why do we find vistas beautiful? Why are flowers pretty? They're not designed for us. This whole sense of aesthetics, it feels weird and subjective and not scientific.

40:42And yeah, that's true. But there's a lot of subjectivity in thinking about what to explore. In the end, the data's got to tell you what's real. But when you're like hunting for ideas, trusting your gut and looking for beauty is useful. And there's another reason why we think magnetic monopoles might exist, which is if they did, it would instantly solve another deep question about the universe, which is, why is electric charge quantized? Like, why do we have electrons that have plus one charge? But there's no particles with like 1.0042 charge or 75.9 charges. They come in these increments. And quarks have one third and two third charge, but they're still quantized.

41:23Nobody knows the answer to this. But if there was a magnetic monopole, even just one that existed in the universe, it would answer this question. Whoa. All right. And this is Schrodinger's equation, right? So would that mean that if we found one, would that mean his equations were wrong or would that complete his equations? This has to do actually with quantization of angular momentum, right? We know that angular momentum is quantized and we know there's a relationship between electricity and magnetism. And so it's very easy to derive this quantization from the existence of monopoles. It's a few steps in the equations.

41:58And so famous physicists like Joe Polchinski says, quote, magnetic monopoles are one of the safest bets that one can make about physics not yet seen. Like if you had to guess about future discoveries, a lot of physicists are confident that eventually we will see a magnetic monopole. Oh, wow. And it's not like we haven't looked. We've been looking for them. It's actually quite easy to see a magnetic monopole. All right. I'm dying to know how we've been looking for them. So let's take a break, ruminate on beauty and what it means for our universe. And when we come back, we'll find out how you find monopoles.

42:40This is Charity Lawson from Bachelor Happy Hour. Charity, I was thinking about this the other day. What's something that you'll always say yes to? That's easy. Seeing my friends, last minute girls trip, basically making memories you'll talk about for years. Same. And somehow every one of these memories comes with something to plan. That's so true. That's why Klarna stands out. It's about smarter tools that help you manage your money without taking away from the moments that matter. Exactly. With flexible ways to pay, cash back that builds automatically, and everything in one place, Klarna helps you feel more confident making everyday money decisions.

43:15Because when you have the right tools, everything feels more manageable. Download the Klarna app today or visit Klarna.com to learn more. California resident loans made or arranged pursuant to California Finance Law License, NMLS number 1353190. Klarna balance account required to be eligible for cashback points, limitations, terms, and conditions apply. Aging is real. And so are the benefits of adding Vital Proteins Collagen Peptides to your daily routine. New Vital Proteins Collagen Sparkling Water. Your daily glow up now in three fresh flavors. strawberry blossom lemon lime and blood orange improved skin health in as little as 30 days thanks to collagen peptides cheers to that or go with our classic collagen peptides so you can stay vital stay you visit vitalproteins.com to learn more and where to buy these statements have not been evaluated by the food and drug administration this product is not intended to diagnose treat or prevent any disease

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45:46All right, you were about to tell us how we go about looking for monopoles. So what have we done so far? There's two categories of ways to discover monopoles. One is try to find them already existing in the universe, and the other is try to make some. So how do you find a monopole? Well, let's think about early experiments with magnets, right? Faraday did these experiments where he had a coil of wire and he passed a magnet through it, and he saw that it generated a current, right? And the crucial thing is all the magnets he had had a north and a south. So he would pass the north part through the wire and it would generate a current one way and the south part would then follow and it would generate a current the other way.

46:23So if you have a dipole that goes through a loop of wire, you get current one way and then current the other way. It all adds up to zero because the dipole has no net magnetic charge. But if you have a monopole that passes through, it just generates current in one direction. That's it. So what do you do? You build a huge loop of current to capture any monopoles that happen to fly through and you wait and you just see. Maybe we'll find one. And some guy built a really big wire and he ran it for a while. And there was this event on Valentine's day, 1982, where he saw a huge spike of current only in one direction.

46:56Boom. It looks exactly like a monopole, but it's never been replicated. Nobody's ever seen another one. So either monopoles are super duper rare in the universe, and he happened to capture one. Nobody has been able to do it since, which means they must be super rare. Or it was a glitch or some weird error and not a real signal. Nobody knows to this day, like, did he really see a monopole? You can't really conclude yes based on just one observation. So is like essentially this experiment running continuously looking for it? So it's still running, still looking, and it's only been seen once in 40 years?

47:36Yeah, exactly. Wow. And so if he's right, it means that monopoles are like very rare, like there's less than one monopole per 10 to the 30 atoms, which, you know, that's not actually that rare because there's a lot of 10 to the 30 atoms in the Earth, for example. But, you know, if monopoles are out there, they're super duper rare. So the other thing we try to do is let's make them. One thing we can do with colliders is create new kinds of matter that we don't have ways to build otherwise. You know, we smash protons together. it turns into some intermediate state. And then through alchemy, basically, we can create new kinds of matter.

48:11We create electrons or muons or quarks or whatever. And so people have tried to make magnetic monopoles at the collider. It's nothing you do in particular. You just look to see, hey, if we smash protons together often enough, do any of these guys come out? And so far we haven't seen any. They would act weird in the magnetic fields that our detectors are immersed in. And so there would be a very obvious signal, but we've never seen one so far. How long have we been using this method to look for monopoles? Basically, every time we run a collider, we look through the data for monopoles. And we've been doing collisions for 50 years or so, basically, at this level.

48:45We look for them at the Large Hadron Collider. We look for them at the Tevatron. We look for them at the Large Electron Proton Collider. We've never seen anything that looks like a monopole. So that's disappointing. And it's confusing because, boy, it sure would be beautiful if monopoles existed. And it would be an amazing discovery. But we've never seen one. And so maybe the universe just is asymmetric in this way. So say you do see a monopole, but it really is so rare that you see it, you know, one time every 45 years. Is that still as amazing if it's just this rare blip that sometimes happens in the universe?

49:19It's still as amazing because their very existence would be satisfactory. It would open up new questions like, well, why are electric monopoles everywhere and magnetic monopoles super duper rare? That would need an answer. The same way that matter is everywhere and antimatter is super-duper rare. That would be another asymmetry we'd have to explain. But if they did exist, it would be a very different universe than one in which they were prohibited, in which they just cannot exist for some reason we don't yet know. Well, my favorite dipole is Earth. I'm a big fan. Biased. Yeah, well, so I am. That's fine.

49:55You can check out my whole book for why I think the Earth is so great. So why is Earth such – what makes Earth such a great dipole, Daniel? Is that why you don't want to go to Mars? Because there's no magnetic field there and you're just pro-Earth's magnetic field. I mean, I don't think the magnetars and I would feel really comfortable on Mars. You know, we need a strong dipole. Well, the Earth has a big magnetic field. We all know that because we use compasses to navigate for thousands of years. It's not a permanent magnet, right? It's not just like there's a hunk of iron down there that has a magnet to it because it's changing, right?

50:28The Earth's magnetic field is not constant. We don't fully understand where the Earth's magnetic field comes from. Roughly, we know that the Earth has a fluid layer. There's rock down there that's under a lot of pressure and there's convection. So this stuff is bubbling and rising and then sinking. So you get these loops of stuff moving and the Earth is spinning. And so roughly, probably the explanation is that molten liquid currents of this stuff, and it's charged, these are metals, a lot of them, give a magnetic field. And once you have a magnetic field, that magnetic field can drive currents, and those currents can make more field, and those fields make more currents.

51:05You get this dynamo effect that enhances itself. But what we know is that this is not something that's just fixed. It's not like the Earth has had the same magnetic fields for 4 billion years. It changes, and it changes in weird ways. And is it changing because convection can be sort of like random, and it's not always happening exactly the same way? We don't know. So like we see these reversals through history and the reversals are not periodic. Like sometimes it's every 50 million years. Sometimes it's every 100 ,000 years. The most recent reversal that we've seen is about 800 ,000 years ago.

51:41The poles were the opposite. So like if you took a compass from today and went back in time a million years, the compass would point north towards the South Pole. What? Would we be totally screwed if that happened? Like, and how fast does it happen? Is it like, you know, Monday morning it's one way and Monday afternoon it's the other? No, it doesn't happen that fast, but it might be happening right now. Like right now, the Earth's North Pole is drifting. It's moving away from the location around which the Earth is spinning, the sort of geometric North Pole, and towards Siberia at 40 kilometers per year.

52:15And every year that gets faster. Oh. Yeah. So, wow. Are we sure it's going to go all the way or could this just be like a... We don't know. Jiggling. It could just be a juggalo, you know, for all we know. But the cool thing is that we can measure the Earth's magnetic field through history. This is one of those amazing moments when people have come up with this incredible detective strategy to unearth some data from history. We can use magnetized lava that's frozen on the seafloor. What? So there's these parts of the sea where you're making a lot of new rock all the time. So you're making a new crust at these mid-ocean ridges that come out and then spread outwards.

52:53and these are susceptible to magnetism. And so they get magnetized by the Earth's magnetic field. All the little particles align in one direction, and then they freeze, right? And so you get these stripes. As the Earth's magnetic field flips, this paleomagnetic record is formed. It's like a tape recorder of the Earth's magnetic field. You can go down and measure the magnetic field of this lava, and you're like, oh, it flipped, oh, it's back. And if you know when it was made, you can reconstruct the whole history of the Earth's magnetic field. Isn't that amazing? Aren't scientists so clever? That is so cool.

53:25And you know, the folks in the geology section on our Discord are rejoicing because we've done something in their wheelhouse now. So yeah, that is incredible. Yeah. So we know that it's happening. We know that it's irregular. We don't know why. And in contrast, for example, the sun has a magnetic field that flips every 11 years super regularly. Like every 11 years for like a long, long time. Why does the Earth have a magnetic field that flips irregularly? We don't know. Why does the sun reverse this field every 11 years? We don't know. We think the sun's magnetic field comes from convection of plasma inside it.

54:01We don't fully understand it. Huge question. You know, Mars, we think, has no magnetic field because it's essentially frozen. There might be some motion inside Mars, but there's no dynamo inside Mars. Venus has no field. Jupiter has a huge field. Some moons have magnetic fields. if we think they have internal motion. So there's some understanding of it, but a lot of big questions left about planetary and lunar magnetic fields. So a little bit of magic left to demystify. All right, Kelly, so are magnetic fields still magic to you? You know, I still feel like science holds a lot of magic in a good way.

54:36Like, it's amazing that we've been able to figure this all out. And maybe I'm stretching the definition of magic, But I still feel inspired and uplifted. And I get that sort of like magical, tingly feeling when I learn about some of this stuff and the fact that we figured it all out. Yeah. And I think it's satisfying to replace the mystery with understanding. It's not magic in the same way, but it scratches a deep itch for me. Me too. I think if I said this to my daughter, she'd be like, come on, mom. But I still feel that in my bones. So let's go with it. All right. Well, thanks to everyone for writing in with your questions about magnetism.

55:14And stay tuned for new episodes. Thanks, Magalows.

55:24Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio. We would love to hear from you. We really would. We want to know what questions you have about this extraordinary universe. We want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions for future shows. If you contact us, we will get back to you. We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us at questions at danielandkelly.org. Or you can find us on social media. We have accounts on X, Instagram, Blue Sky, and on all of those platforms, you can find us at D &K Universe. Don't be shy. Write to us. I'm U.S. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy.

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